Breaking the Wall

St. George Painters Half Marathon

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Location:

Orem,UT,United States

Member Since:

Jan 27, 1986

Gender:

Male

Goal Type:

Olympic Trials Qualifier

Running Accomplishments:

Best marathon: 2:23:57 (2007, St. George). Won the Top of Utah Marathon twice (2003,2004). Won the USATF LDR circuit in Utah in 2006.

Draper Days 5 K 15:37 (2004)

Did not know this until June 2012, but it turned out that I've been running with spina bifida occulta in L-4 vertebra my entire life, which explains the odd looking form, struggles with the top end speed, and the poor running economy (cannot break 16:00 in 5 K without pushing the VO2 max past 75).  

 

Short-Term Running Goals:

Qualify for the US Olympic Trials. With the standard of 2:19 on courses with the elevation drop not exceeding 450 feet this is impossible unless I find an uncanny way to compensate for the L-4 defect with my muscles. But I believe in miracles.

Long-Term Running Goals:

2:08 in the marathon. Become a world-class marathoner. This is impossible unless I find a way to fill the hole in L-4 and make it act healthy either by growing the bone or by inserting something artificial that is as good as the bone without breaking anything important around it. Science does not know how to do that yet, so it will take a miracle. But I believe in miracles.

Personal:

I was born in 1973. Grew up in Moscow, Russia. Started running in 1984 and so far have never missed more than 3 consecutive days. Joined the LDS Church in 1992, and came to Provo, Utah in 1993 to attend BYU. Served an LDS mission from 1994-96 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Got married soon after I got back. My wife Sarah and I are parents of eleven children: Benjamin, Jenny, Julia, Joseph, Jacob, William, Stephen, Matthew,  Mary,  Bella.  and Leigha. We home school our children.

I am a software engineer/computer programmer/hacker whatever you want to call it, and I am currently working for RedX. Aside from the Fast Running Blog, I have another project to create a device that is a good friend for a fast runner. I called it Fast Running Friend.

Favorite Quote:

...if we are to have faith like Enoch and Elijah we must believe what they believed, know what they knew, and live as they lived.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie

 

Favorite Blogs:

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Miles:This week: 0.00 Month: 25.00 Year: 668.87
Saucony Type A Lifetime Miles: 640.15
Bare Feet Lifetime Miles: 450.37
Nike Double Stroller Lifetime Miles: 124.59
Brown Crocs 4 Lifetime Miles: 1334.06
Amoji 1 Lifetime Miles: 732.60
Amoji 2 Lifetime Miles: 436.69
Amoji 3 Lifetime Miles: 380.67
Lopsie Sports Sandals Lifetime Miles: 818.02
Lopsie Sports Sandals 2 Lifetime Miles: 637.27
Iprome Garden Clogs Lifetime Miles: 346.18
Beslip Garden Clogs Lifetime Miles: 488.26
Joybees 1 Lifetime Miles: 1035.60
Madctoc Clogs Lifetime Miles: 698.29
Blue Crocs Lifetime Miles: 1164.32
Kimisant Black Clogs Lifetime Miles: 720.62
Black Crocs 2023 Lifetime Miles: 1312.70
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
4642.68441.67263.4786.805434.62
Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 187.10Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 487.82
Night Sleep Time: 2468.67Nap Time: 145.16Total Sleep Time: 2613.83
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.252.100.000.0020.35

A.M. 15.1 with minor events in 1:42:09. Events were - ran with Ted for the first 10.1, 11 degrees at the start, good traction on crunch snow, two VPB stops with catch up at 5:55 - 5:35 pace (depending on how much snow was on the ground), and picking it up on the last 0.25 with Ted (1:27) and last 0.5 (2:56) at the very end. Fixed two bugs in the mileage board (I hope) - triathlete swim now will not bump them up into the spaceship mileage category, and the rollover from the lost sheep from the last month/year should not make them leaders for a couple of days in some cases in the current month/year mileage.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:51, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:17, 1.05 with Julia in 11:20, and 0.7 in 4:45 alone.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Jon on Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 16:28:30

Thanks for fixing both of those things. I was trying to sort mileage for Dec and it was giving me fits yesterday. Works now.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.800.600.000.0021.40

A.M. Almost uneventful 15.1 in 1:50:18. The events were "balmy" 14 degrees compared to 8-11 yesterday, having Ted around for the first 10.1, nice crunchy snow with good traction, and a tempo pick up on the last 0.6 with the last 0.5 in 2:53. First 10.1 were done in 1:17:14, 7:38.81 avg, we've been so engrossed in the conversation that we did not even bother to chase down the 7:30 guy. On the last 5 I picked it up a bit, total time was 33:04, 6:36.8 avg.

P.M. Cross-country skiing in the Hobblecreek Canyon while the kids were sledding. Today is Joseph's birthday, he turned 3. He loves sledding. So we figured we'd give him a bit of a present. Did not bring The Toy, used landmarks and a regular watch to judge the distance. Took it easier starting out, went up for 14:59, figured it was about 1.5 off the landmarks. 12:11 on the way back. I need to start waxing my skis. I do not know that much about cross-country skiing, but I think there is something wrong if on a certain stretch you run up at 6:00, with the same effort you run at 5:00 down, you ski up at 9:00, and with the same effort you ski down at 8:00. Going down 3% grade I cannot just coast, I would come to a standstill in 5 seconds, and going down 2% I cannot go into pushing off with both poles at the same time. Forget skating, down or up. At first I thought maybe the road was really bad, or maybe my arms were just too weak, but now I am more inclined to think it is the lack of waxing. I found a small patch of ice, and was able to accelerate skating on it, and if felt much different.

1.05 with Julia in 11:07, 2 miles with Benjamin in 17:05, Jenny joined us for the first 1.5 in 13:12. Additionally 0.25 from Benjamin's Boy Scout meeting place home, and from home to church.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Clay on Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 16:08:35

Be careful in the back country Sasha, we don't want you to become another statistic, avalanche danger is high right now...

From Paul Petersen on Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 16:33:34

If you are still using my old skis, they are wax-less, and I think waxing would probably make them function very poorly. As I recall, I could climb just about anything in those skis, and stay in control on the way down on steeper stuff. I think they just have a bit more grip than other skis. My current wax-less skis have the opposite problem: going up is hard, and going down is a bit too fast for my liking. Going up Green Canyon (4.7% grade), I did 15-minute miles, but could hold 7-minute pace coming down.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 21:08:04

Paul - yes, those are the skis I am using. Any tips on how to make them slide better? I read that glide waxing could work. Have you ever tried it?

I do have a strategic reason for good sliding qualities. I noticed that when running I have a 3-5% difference in the stride length from one leg to the other, but when bounding the strides are even on both legs. And if you remember the discussion earlier, my bounding predicts a 53 second quarter based on the Russian charts. I suspect there is a range of motion issue for hip extension when running on the right side (which produces the shorter stride when running) that I am able to work around when bounding. So the thought is, if I could make the skis slide back really well on hip extension, that would give me some range of motion exercise that may be enough to enable me to learn to use my bounding workaround when running.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.133.603.750.0021.48

A.M. A very eventful morning. It started at 12:10 AM. Jacob was teething, and refused to sleep. So I took him downstairs and worked. After a bit over 1 hour he was done crying and fell asleep. Then I was too wound up to sleep, so I read the scriptures. Finally laid down and fell asleep. Another event was forgetting it was Thursday, and that Michelle was going to join us at 6:00 AM. So I arranged with Ted earlier to run at 6:30 AM. Michelle, of course, was on time. So she had some time for a nice warm-up.

We decided we would run fast when we could. I had an unplanned tempo pick-up for about a quarter due to a VPB stop, and then the road was clear, so Michelle kicked into gear and that extended the tempo to 0.5. Then we ran 2.1 stretch in 13:04 with a slightly negative split and a 180 in the middle. The road was mostly clear. On the last mile, I challenged Michelle to break 6:20 knowing that two things would happen. It would be easy and doable, so she would succeed. She would not think it is easy, so she'd kick seriously into gear, and after the first quarter or half at a good pace, she would feel up to a raised bar. It worked out as planned. She hit a quarter in 1:29, the bar was raised to catch the 6:00 girl, then 1:31, then Ted pulled ahead a bit to do his standard Ted-rabbit thing, and we ran 1:28, and 1:27 with a college kick on the last 60 meters at a pace that felt like 5:20. This gave me 1:19:30 for 11.61.

Then it was time for more miles to finish the 15.1. After not sleeping, and not having anybody around to push the pace, I was perfectly happy to trot along at 7:20-7:30 pace wishing for the run to be over, and looking forward to a breakfast and a good nap. Then I met Tyler. He said he was planning to do a 4 mile tempo and invited me to join. Even though at that point I wanted little else other than breakfast followed by bed in that order, I remembered a principle. When you are invited to do something out of your comfort zone, do it! Many times while serving a mission there was a door I did not want to knock on for one reason or another. And I learned that those doors had a very high probability of having somebody who was very interested behind them. So I decided that I'd always knock those doors, on a mission and afterwards. An invitation to do something hard is often an opportunity for a blessing of some kind.

Since there was no good 4 mile stretch anywhere on the trail, we decided to do 6x1000 (actually 0.625 going off the magic triangles to be more precise) on the dry stretch between the Union Pacific and 800 N bridges. It has a fairly steady about 1% grade. To get the tempo effects we kept the rest very short, about 40 seconds, barely enough to lose the momentum, turn around and jog back to the start. There were a couple of snow patches. I did not like them. They broke the rhythm, and at that point, rhythm was very important.

The times were: 3:31 (up) - 3:24 (down) - 3:33 (up) - 3:24 (down) - 3:32 (up) - 3:22 (down). This was good training for the third leg of Del Sol. I was doing OK on fuel, but the neural drive was seriously lacking, as you would expect.

Ended up with 19.23 miles for the run.

P.M. VanGoGo had a coolant leak. Took it to Computune. The manager, Todd, knows his cars like a good shepherd knows his sheep. At least for VanGoGo, he could probably recite 90% of its maintenance history without looking at the record. Turned out the problem was a bad radiator. We are going to get it fixed.

VanGoGo is a GMC Safari 95 van. It got its name partially from Kip Kangogo. Interestingly enough they have actually had a brief meeting on one occasion in the Slate Canyon. We even wrote a song about naming VanGoGo (we name our cars as you can tell):

When Zhu got too crowded we needed a van.
So we bought a Safari to drive our small clan.
When we pressed the gas pedal, it made Zhu seem slow.
So we thought that maybe it could be VanGo.
But then we remembered that Van Gogh was weird.
We thought of his paintings, and the dreadful lost ear.
We thought of a runner, a Kenyan we know.
With this inspiration we said: "VanGoGo!"

It now up to 191K miles. Second engine, third transmission (we did two of those, but one was fortunately under warranty). When we get another kid, it will be time for an upgrade to GMC Savannah. But until then I want to see how far VanGoGo can go.

Ran back with Benjamin and Jenny, 2.25 in 20:12. Benjamin was complaining that Jenny would not let him catch the 9:00 guy. Then Jenny got into a good rhythm on the last mile, closed with a 1:57 quarter, and beat the 9:00 guy by 3 seconds.


Night Sleep Time: 6.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From MichelleL on Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 21:03:33

Good job accepting the challenge for some speed at the end. I think it will help you in Del Sol and also as a marathon workout--seeing what you can do when you are tired.

Thanks so much for letting me run with you this morning and for coaching me through a nice tough workout. The last mile challenge was tough since I was already pooped but was a confidence booster!

So what's your goal for Painters? I can already guess and answer -- I will run by feel, go out fast and try to hang on. That's the typical Sasha strategy, right? Correct me if needed.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 21:07:54

Yes, pretty much. Even better - I'll develop the strategy as the race develops.

From Christi on Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 11:28:52

Hi Sasha! I wanted to see if I could post an announcement? I want to get a head count of how many people would like to gather Friday Jan. 18th in St. George for a Painter's pre-race party. I am looking into places that we can have a pre-race pasta party and I need to know how many people we'll have. I have a place we can use, but it only holds 40. Anyway- I don't know how to post news/ announcements. Can you do it for me or show me how? Thanks so much!!

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 12:05:29

Christi:

To post on the board:

* log in to your FRB account

* click on Discussion Forum link

* click on News and Announcements

* click on New Topic

* fill out the Subject and the Message fields

* click on the Post button at the bottom

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.600.000.000.0016.60

A.M. The stomach flu that hit our kids finally made its way to me. Fortunately, last night I noticed that there was a problem and did not eat dinner. So I had nothing to throw up, otherwise it would have been messy. Woke up around 1 AM, was not feeling good, drank some raspberry tea, felt better, drank some Powerade. Then had a hard time falling asleep. Decided running 15 would be counterproductive due to starting depleted and the difficulty of post-run carb replenishment, so just ran easy 10.1 with Ted in 1:18:38 to get a breath of fresh air. Nice balmy morning - 37 degrees!

Handled a phone call with a client, then took a nice 2 hour nap to regain strength.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:55. Had him guess the splits, no feedback the entire time. He thought he was going 8:40 pace all along, this is a good sign. Then 1.5 with Jenny and Jared. Jared was a bit sick, and struggled. So we had to stop and wait for him a couple of times. Jenny's time was 12:58, not counting the stops. Then 1.05 with Julia in 11:40. Then 2 on my own in 13:59. The stomach is still giving me problems. Was able to eat one light meal, regular breakfast along some with crackers and honey sandwiches. Also was able to drink a fruit smoothie, and Powerade. Held everything down so far, but it was asking to come up during the run when I'd pick it up to 6:40 pace or faster.

Night Sleep Time: 5.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Lybi's Mom on Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 13:01:09

I can't believe you keep running when you are sick. Doesn't the body know what it is doing to make you want to lie down?

BTW Laura on "Running in the Rockies" had some serious technique questions today.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 13:40:27

Different degrees of sickness reduce your ability to run in different ways. The sickness would have to be quite severe to where running at all becomes counterproductive. I listen to my body and ask it how much training would be productive that day. So far, the only time it said no training at all would be most productive was when I had a 103 degree fever. For milder forms of sickness, getting out for a breath of fresh air at a slow pace is a good idea.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.663.750.250.0024.66

A.M. Ran with Ted and Tyler. Slept fine last night, woke up only once to drink some raspberry tea and go to the bathroom. Was originally planning on going only 15 figuring the carbo-depletion from the stomach flu and eating less would make 20 counterproductive. Ted and Tyler were doing the Uneventful Half. The start was rough, had a hard time getting going. However, felt stronger and stronger as I went along. We kept picking up the pace. With about 2 to go Ted picked it up to about 6:10 - 6:20 pace. I really dislike that pace. It feels like driving through the mud. It is almost as hard as 6:00, and I do not like seeing 6:something splits when working that hard. At sub-6:00, and especially sub-5:45 I start feeling relaxed, like I am flying, and I do not mind working a bit harder to get that feeling. So with a mile to go I picked it up so we'd be sub-6:00. That felt good. Finished with the last mile in 5:44, last quarter in 1:22. Total time for the Uneventful Half was 1:31:41.

Drank some Powerade to refuel. Amazingly I somehow found a way to compensate for the effects of the stomach flu and extract the energy out of something. My body was telling me it could handle the whole 20 productively, so I went for it. It started raining pretty hard. I ran the first 4 in 26:55, 6:43.75 avg, and then my body said it felt good about 6:00 to the end. So I did 5:59, 5:55, and closed with 5:47 feeling progressively stronger. Last 3 in 17:41. Total time for 20.11 was 2:16:17, 6:46.61 avg.

P.M. Lots of snow on the ground, the kids ran slower. 1.5 with Jenny in 14:52, 2 with Benjamin in 17:20, and 1.05 with Julia in 12:05.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Got good night sleep, went to church, stayed awake for all meetings, then after some missionary visits came home and took a 2 hour nap.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.250.000.000.0020.25

A.M. Jacob kept us awake all night. Did not get a lot of sleep. Ran with Ted and Jeff this morning. Very slippery I first did 5 on my own, the watch got messed up, but it was a bit slower than 40 minutes. Then 8 with Ted and Jeff, and 2 more with Ted, total of 1:21:41 for 10 miles. So that gave me around 2:02 for 15 miles.

P.M. Josse came and showed me some stretches for my extra tight right hip. Will give those a try. Took a 2 hour nap. Ran with the kids. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:27, 2 with Benjamin in 15:51, and 1.05 with Julia in 10:02. Then 0.7 on my own in 5:15. 

Night Sleep Time: 4.50Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 6.50
Comments
From jeremystaples on Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 11:29:18

Hi Sasha, thanks for all of the analysis and advice lately. It is a great to get insight from someone so much more running experience. I really appreciate it.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.700.400.000.0020.10

A.M. Uneventful 15.1 in 1:52:19, first 10.1 with Ted in 1:14:41. Still slippery, although not as bad as yesterday. Was able to beat the 7:30 guy. On the last 0.4 finally got out on some dry ground, still patches of ice, but much better. Picked it up, ran 5:45 pace. Did the magic hip stretches later.

P.M. 3 miles cross-country skiing in the Hobble Creek Canyon. When we came back, 2 miles with Benjamin in 15:56. Jenny and Julia ran with Sarah. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From cgbooth23 on Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 18:04:52

Sasha,

are you an ibuprofen man, do you take it for aches and pains? I know how strict you are on your diet and I am curious your thoughts on prescription drugs in general? and ibuprofen specifically? I very rarely take in kind of medicine, i do take flax seed pills and glucosomine chondroitin supplements!

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 21:57:32

I am fortunate enough to hardly ever have aches or pains. However, I am not completely immune. I treat them as naturally as possible. Last time I used any kind of pill-style medication was Tylenol in 2002 when I had a 102 degree fever. But back then I did not know as much about herbs. In 2005 I used catnip tea for the same problem. My approach is that if your body is fussing at you, you need to address the root cause rather than just tell it to be quiet with a pain-killer pill.

From Jennifer Pachev on Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 23:13:14

I like to go sledding.Thank you for taking me.

From cgbooth23 on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 13:04:52

thanks for the reply on your thoughts on ibuprofen etc... i too attempt to let the body take its natural course in healing!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.831.000.000.0016.83

A.M. We got a serious snow storm. However, at 5:00 AM it was still decent. Ted was being usually late due to snow problems. I waited, then decided to start without him. Went about 200 feet, fell down. Never had an event happen that soon! Got up. Saw Ted about 0.14 into the run, turned around. We ran 10.1 on the trail in 1:18:50. After the first two miles we began to wonder what kind of time we would get in Painters if the roads are like this (we were in about 4 inches of snow). So we picked it up for a mile at a tempo pace. It was one of the better miles of the course, and we did it in 6:29.

I've given the issue some thought and realized that I really do not enjoy anything very much anymore that does not require significant effort, either physical or mental. There are things I do not mind doing, such as watching a movie, but that is where it stops. It is always at the level "I do not mind" vs "I would really like to". Sleep would be one exception, I always look forward to it.

I get so much more joy out of doing things that require effort that whatever I can get out of those that do not just pales in comparison so much that they are not worth the hassle and/or the money unless something else of significance is being accomplished at the same time.

P.M. Ran 2 miles in 15:12 on the trail, then ran 2.2 to the BYU indoor track, did a mile time trial with Benjamin which turned out not so good - he was 3 seconds ahead of 6:40 pace after three laps (0.6), but he was overdressed and got too hot, this frustrated him enough to just stop and call it quits in the middle of the fourth lap. But he PR'ed on 1000 meters en route - 4:06. Ran a bit with Benjamin afterwards outside, he got a talk about mental attitude and Winston Churchill's "never, never, never give up". We will try again today (Thursday). Jenny ran 1.6 easy, and Julia ran 1 mile. Also ran a small errand to the church and back.

Did the magic hip stretches.

Night Sleep Time: 0.11Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.11
Comments
From Kim on Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 16:54:11

Sasha, You and Ted are amazing! That's all I can say! Hope you didn't get hurt in the fall!

From wheakory on Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 17:36:39

I'm kind of like that to. I will do whatever I can that requires more exercise or effort. Like at work... I will not take the elevator I will only take the stairs to my office, because I know by doing that I'm building strength in my legs.

I would rather watch a Football game than a movie though, but I do like movies I just don't watch very many.

From Brent on Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 21:39:28

Never ending quest!, great to way pave a trail thru life.

Stay Cool and on your feet, B of BS Rools out,

25 commando points for you and Ted today, another 10 for you getting right back on your feet to continue the daily challenge. You are both the ultimate WOWs, warriors of winter running.

From Mike Warren on Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 23:47:16

Sasha, if we get snow like that for Painters, I think it's safe to say, not many, if any, St. George ites, will be running! You will own the roads! By the way great job today!, I find myself shaking my head alot, reading your running adventures. I think you will really enjoy our weather next week.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 11:27:59

Mike - if it snows the competition will not be any less serious. The guys that can beat me will train and race in any conditions. They do not allow circumstances to control their training. That is why they can beat me.

From Mike Warren on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 21:31:55

Sasha, I was kidding! but I am impressed with your training. It's nice to see someone so dedicated, to something that is not easy. Good luck at Painters!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. Another uneventful 15.3 in 1:59:55. Nobody fell down. 16 degrees, lots of ice, but enough traction to average sub-8:00. Had our Sasha and Ted uneventful run talk show. After discussing upcoming Dubai and the possibility of Haile being beat by a pacer, we talked about Haile's business success, how much good you can do even with a little bit of money, the Kiva program that allows ordinary folks to provide small business loans to aspiring entrepreneurs in developing countries, the waste of the welfare program that fails to prevent people on welfare from buying alcohol and tobacco, then the discussion turned to the history of the Soviet Union, politics in Russia, and the grip of the Russian mafia on the Russian livelihood today. In reference to Revelations in the New Testament I mentioned the whore that sat upon many waters, and from then on we discussed the current American politics and Hillary Clinton in particular. Dropped Ted off at 13.3, and added another 2 miles by myself.

A.M2  2.1 to the BYU indoor track, then 1 mile warm-up with Benjamin, then 1 mile time trial. With the help of shorts and t-shirt, as well as Winston Churchill Benjamin did much better today. 6:32.2 with the splits (by 0.2) of  1:17 - 1:19 - 1:19 - 1:20 , and 1:17 for the kick. New mile PR. Benjamin's progression in the table below:

 Age1 Mile
5 K
 5.97:58.8
27:25
 6.97:31
25:07
 7.9 7:0923:18
8.9
6:32.2
22:14

His current 5 K PR is relatively weak, he was not feeling quite 100% when he set it, and it was done on a slow course. A month prior to that he ran 13:57 flat 2 miler closing it with a 6:43 mile, which until now was his 1 mile PR. I imagine also based on his Thanksgiving 800 in 3:00.6 that he really has about a 6:20 mile in him if he was racing kids outside. The indoor dust confuses him, and he starts getting a false sense of fatigue. But his 7:09 last year was also done on the indoor track with comparable dust/lack of kid competition challenge. So it would be fair to say that his true mile speed improved by 37 seconds in a year.

Ran another 0.7 to Computune this time for a tour for the kids. Learned some things about a car shop. Later took the kids to the Love To Learn store in Salem to get their prizes. Benjamin got a solar car kit for $18 for his new mile PR.

Did the magic hip stretches later in the afternoon.


Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From James on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 14:48:18

Got a kick out of the whore/Hillary thing! I remember when Hawk Harper and a couple other runners had a competition to get the most miles a couple of years ago. The loser had to give $500 to the Hillary for President campaign. They were very motivated!

From josse on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 17:15:04

Hows the stretching treating you?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 18:10:39

I noticed an improvement in hip flexibility today. The roads have been too icy to test if this translates into running improvements. I feel the most effective stretch is the first one that you've shown me that opens up the hips.

From josse on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 18:56:11

Yes that one is the one I like the best and has helped me the most but still do the others as well. Nest time I will show you some others as well, and make sure you are doing them right. Just let me know when you are ready for more.

From josse on Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 19:03:04

Oh ya by the way, after eating at your house you guys totally inspired me to clean up my diet. I forgot how much I love the way bean make me feel. I use to eat them all the time only I like black beans. Any way thank you.

From Jon on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 16:18:16

I'm just curious- what did you decide is the chance of Haile getting beat by a pacer? Were you talking about a marathon?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 16:29:07

Very good chance. I do not believe Haile is the fastest marathoner in the world right now. The reason he is the one holding the world record is that others who are faster did not have enough reputation to be invited to Berlin and be pulled by pacers.

So it all depends on how the pacers are feeling, and whether their contract allows them to go all the way.

I think once race directors start paying people enough for hitting the first half in 1:01 and then hanging on, the world record will quickly progress into the 2:01-2:02 range. Otherwise when you get all the big guns together, they always run tactically. If they worked together, and each of them knew that he gets a decent cut for being part of the world record even if he is not the one who sets it, we would see much faster times.

From Mike B on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 20:00:18

Sasha, I have not update my log in sometime. I keep an excel spreadsheet, but have been swamped at work, sick kids, etc.

I seem to recall you mentioning having your running mechanics looked at. If I were you, video your running at various speeds and ask Tinman (therunzone.com) to look at your form. I am quite sure that he will provide some feedback. A recent post over there reminded me of you. See you!

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 21:56:09

Mike - thanks, this is a good idea.

From josse on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 22:07:47

I have had myself filmed a couple of times and had form analysis done(Hawk used to bring this guy down form SLC once a year and we could pay to have hime look at us and give his advise). It helped bring my times down alot.

but something I have noticed with myself, as well as other runners I know that has done the same thing, is that you tend to fall back to your old stride when you are at the end of a race and are very tired. But I do think it is a good idea.

I have also thought about your stride differance and it could be that one side is stronger and had more push off than the other. You have probably all ready though about this but just thought I would mention it. I still think the hips being bound up does contribute.

From Benn on Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 22:15:16

Sasha, how can I monitor my sleep time in conjunction with mileage like your blog? I think that is a useful feature because it can help shed light on certain high or low points in performance and why you feel the way you do.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 13:53:43

Benn:

Go to User Options, check the Track Sleep checkbox, then hit Submit.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.950.000.000.2021.15

A.M. Uneventful 15.1 in 1:56:13. First 10.1 with Ted. It warmed up on the last 5, and the snow got so slippery that I was down to 8:30 in some places. At the end I figured I'd break 40:00 for the last 5. Then I realized that the only way this was going to happen was if I ran 5:00 pace on dry sections, which was doable because there were not that many of them. So I got 0.2 of VO2 Max mileage, and 39:59 for the last 5.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 18:47, Jenny joined us for the first 1.5 in 14:33. Cross-country skiing for 3 miles in the Hobble Creek Canyon. The arms felt stronger, got good push off, although went slow most of the way as the snow was sticky and the road was usually rough. Chased three free roaming cows. The kids went sledding. 1.05 with Julia after we got home in 11:38.

Did the magic hip stretches.

Night Sleep Time: 0.12Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.12
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.726.380.000.0026.10

A.M. 1 mile with Julia in 10:34 to see the fence ice sculpture on the trail. Then 5 mile shakeout by myself in 37:08. Will do the long run with Ted and Jeff later in the afternoon.

Did the magic hip stretches. 

P.M. Ted got hurt snowshoeing, so it was just Jeff and me. It was warm enough for shorts, probably about 40. But still lots of snow on the ground. We ran 10.1 in 1:09:44. Got good traction, so I thought I could do a tempo run. Took Benjamin and Jenny for a run, we did 1.5 in 13:21, then Benjamin closed with a 3:37 0.5. Ran 8 more, including the Provo River 5 Mile Tempo. The snow kept getting more and more slippery as I went along. Did the first 2.5 in 15:27 and thought that was slow until I got through the second half which took 16:00, 31:27 for 5 miles, 6:17.4 avg. I am hesitating if I should really call this a tempo because I was not working super-hard although I was tempo-focused. Decided since I was fresh, and the remaining 1.38 had more traction I'd just keep the effort to the end. Plus I needed to get home fast for missionary visits. So I ran that part in 8:28, 6:08.12 avg, with the last mile in 6:03, and the last two quarters in 1:29 and 1:25. Needless to say the last quarter was the driest. This gave me 39:55 for 6.38 of tempo, 6:15.39 avg, and 2:18:09 for 20.1, 6:52.39 avg. Felt very good.

Night Sleep Time: 0.15Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.15
Comments
From Lybi on Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 13:11:24

Do you mean a real ice sculpture, or is the fence jut convered with snow? Either way, sounds like you and you kids are making some great memories. (Did you really chase cows yesterday?)

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 13:52:03

There is a guy in a trailer that points his water hose at the fence during the winter and that makes a nice sculpture-looking shape on the fence.

Yes, and I really did chase three cows yesterday on skis. They kept running forward, stopping, looking back, realizing I was getting closer, and then running again. Cows are pretty good runners, they can go 7:00 pace without much of a problem.

From Paul Petersen on Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 14:16:16

Cows will wear down after a couple miles, I've noticed. They can't sustain the pace for long.

From steve ashbaker on Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 14:56:23

If all you did was lay around and eat hay all day you would be out of shape too!

From josse on Sun, Jan 13, 2008 at 14:52:04

Cows scare me, I was driving up hobble creek one time for a run and a cow came and ramed the side of our van.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Since church now starts at 11, slept without the alarm, figured I'd be awake long before it is time to get ready naturally. Woke up around 6:00 - 6:20. Home teaching visits after church took a bit longer than I expected, but they were good and I was able to get a nap in late afternoon anyway.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.720.001.500.0020.22

A.M. Ran the first 8.02 (we missed the turnaround by a bit) with Jeff and Ted. Well, actually a good part of it was without them as I had 3 VPBs and then took forever to catch up due to slippery conditions. The last stop was with about 0.8 to go, and then I started booking it because I wanted to catch them before they got to my house. With about 600 to go it was finally dry enough to go 5:20 pace. With about 150 to go an SUV passed me, and then tried to pass Ted and Jeff, but could not get around them. So I passed the SUV back. It always feels good when you can pass a car running. Then I passed Ted and Jeff as well, and just kept going to time my last quarter, which was 1:20. Last 0.75 was 4:17. Then we ran to the snow field and did stride measurements. All of us had even length strides off either foot this time. Jeff went home after that, Ted ran to 10.02 with me. Then I added 5 more. Towards the end started feeling like a tempo, so I did pickups on dry section. Timed a 200 in 39 down 1% grade, and then ran the last quarter, which had some icy spots, in 1:23. Total time for 15.02 was 1:47:17.

Did the magic hip stretches.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia to the ice sculpture and back in 10:31, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:25, 2 with Benjamin in 17:57 - his foot was hurting, and 0.7 in 4:50 by myself. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.12Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.12
Comments
From George on Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 22:08:26

Curious - what is your stride frequency? I am hearing that single leg ought to be 90+ a minute but I find that is a bit of a challenge for me.

Live it.

GZ

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 23:32:57

About 180-190, and it happens naturally. Do not worry about yours too much. With proper balance of the muscles and the nervous system it will be where it needs to be. Mine used to be around 175, and I did not do anything special - just run th e miles overtime.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.601.000.500.0021.10

A.M. Slept in and missed Ted. Ran alone. 15.1 in 1:47:43. It was 23 degrees. The road was good at first, could go 7:00 pace, then it got slippery and I slowed down to 8:00. Picked it towards the end. Ran from the DI bridge to my house (1.5) in 8:40. It was a mix of marathon pace and threshold, depending on the road conditions. Sometimes 5:20, sometimes 6:20.

P.M. Ran 1 mile with Julia in 10:16, then 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:08. Cross-country skied in the Hobble Creek Canyon - 3 miles. Then ran to the church and back twice. First time to teach the ESL class, second time to retrieve the forgotten hat - total of 0.5 miles. Ran out of necessity, as it was cold. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 23:39:01

Sasha, how dare you miss your running buddies! Were all human, and sometimes your body needs the sleep. Are you a heavy sleeper?

Nice running especially hitting around 5:20 at times.

From Wildbull on Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 13:32:51

have a safe trip to saint George Sasha!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.850.000.000.0018.85

A.M. 8 F at the start. 10.1 with Ted in 1:19:05. Ted helped me jump-start Zhu afterwards. Zhu had not been driven in a while, so the battery lost the charge. We had to drive VanGoGo through the front yard which was covered with snow to get to Zhu. Zhu was parked in the other unpaved and not shoveled driveway, and it was not possible to push it out from there on the road. Fortunately VanGoGo has a 4-wheel drive. The jump start was the biggest event of the morning.

P.M. Ran 1 mile with Jenny and Julia in 10:26. Jenny had a cough so she ran shorter and slower. Then drove VanGoGo to Jiffy Lube for the oil change and other scheduled maintenance. Ran home with Benjamin, 2.25 in 20:04. Then ran back to get VanGoGo in 16:56. Drove it to the parking lot on Geneva Road. Ran 0.5 to check out the trail to see if you could cross-country ski on it. Looked good. Cross-country skied on the 0.625 stretch out and back twice, 2.5 miles in 19:29, 7:47.6 avg. I did stop the watch on the turnarounds, as those take quite a while on skis. The trail is mildly rolling, and had hard-packed snow with a a couple of asphalt patches that you could avoid by skiing through the snow on the side, only a small loss of momentum. I tried to skate, but there was not enough glide in the skis for that, and pushing off with both arms did not work well either. So I just did a regular running-like stride. Nevertheless, averaging out my time, this is 14:31.7 for 3 K which is a 2 minute PR. Of course, the old PR was set at the age of 11.8, but on a well groomed course, and at low elevation (Moscow, Russia). On the other hand, I suspect the skis I have now (even though I got them for $20 from Paul) are quite a bit better than the wooden skis I had then.

I did really enjoy being able to just put my skis in the van, drive, take them out, put them on, then take them off, put them back in the van, and drive straight home. In Moscow I had to drag the skis down 4 flights of stairs, then walk with them 0.1 miles to the bus stop, wait 20 minutes for the bus, ride the cold bus for 30 minutes often standing up and holding the skis the whole way, then walk some more from the bus stop. Then repeat everything backwards when done, except now sweaty.

Added another .25 to teach the ESL class at the church and back. Again had to run because it was cold. Teaching ESL can be a lot of fun, especially in settings when you are not allowed to use the student's native language. My student was having a hard time with the Z sound, they do not have it in Spanish. After a demonstration that did not seem to work I finally decided to explain how to say it - do it like a bee, bzzzz, not like a snake - sssss. Turned out she did not know what a bee was or a snake for that matter. So I showed her the snake, explained about different types of snakes with hand demonstrations and snake noises, she got that one. The bee was harder. I explained how bees make honey, she did not know what honey was. I explained that a bear likes to eat honey, and showed her the bear. Still not much progress. Then I decided to cheat a bit, knowing that the Spanish words for insect and flower sound very similar to those in English, and explained that bees are insects that land on flowers and then make honey, which is sweet stuff that you can put on bread. That worked. Then we got the Z sound down.

Did the magic stretches later in the evening.

Night Sleep Time: 0.11Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.11
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.150.000.000.0020.15

A.M. Ted came in and announced that it was 3 F outside. I put on some extra clothes. Then Jeff came. We started with 3 laps around the block (1.05) with only one purpose in mind - for me to avoid a VPB stop. It turned out to be a wise decision as my body lived up to the statistical patterns of the past. Afterwards we ran 4 out and 4 back. The conversation, appropriately for the weather, turned to the Russian history of the 20th century. The weather and the discussion reminded me of the places where one of my grandfathers died, and the other spent 18 years before being released by Khruschev's decree after Stalin's death. Among other things, I recalled the story of how my grandmother went to see Stalin's dead body twice to be 100% sure he was really dead before she felt free to speak her mind.

Afterwards, added 2.1 around the block with Ted, this time to help him avoid a VPB. Then 4 more on the trail by myself. Total of 15.15 in 1:57:17.

Julia had read all of her Bob books. So Sarah made her some more books with stories about a fat pig and a bad pig. Then Benjamin decided to join the fun, and on his own wrote and illustrated a book titled The Slow Runner. The story reads as follows:

The slow runner was slow. The slow runner lost a race. The slow runner was sad. The fast runner came. The fast runner trained the slow runner. The slow runner won a race. The slow runner was not slow. The End.

P.M. 1 mile with Jenny and Julia in 11:38 - both had a sore throat. 2 with Benjamin in 17:27 - his foot is doing better. 2 more by myself in 13:59.

Magic stretches. 


Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 16:58:43

Great story from your son. Very creative!

Nice run and wise choice to know how your body is feeling. Do you still have family in Russia?

From steve ashbaker on Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 20:15:25

I liked the anecdote about your family in Russia. It illustrates better than any history book about how the Russian people felt about Stalin. A strange mix of fear, respect, and loathing. Would you say this is an accurate statement?

From Mike B on Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 10:10:38

Sasha, forgive me, but what does VPB stand for? I've always been curious.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 12:50:27

Kory:

I still have family in Russia - my mother, father, aunt, and a few twice-removed cousins.

Steve:

Yes, I agree.

Mike:

VPB = Virtual Private Bathroom.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.600.000.500.0020.10

A.M. Ran with Ted. Very slippery. We invented a new term "to get grandpa-ed", or "to get grandped". It means a guy who has grandchildren is beating you in a race. Ted has plans to enter the grandpa division around the age of 44. My plan is to do it at 48. During the discussion I also set a goal to run a sub-3:00 marathon as a great-grandpa, which could happen when I am around 70.

Met Adam with about 2 miles to go, he joined us. Turned out he had fulfilled the scripture earlier in his run: "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25). The interesting coincidence is that right before the run I had read 2 Nephi 2. Dropped Ted off at 10.1, ran another mile with Adam and 4 more on my own. The last 5 miles were exceptionally slippery, I went 9:00 pace in a lot of spots and lost ground to the 8:00 guy, but then gained some back once I got out on drier ground. 1:59:48 for 15.1.

P.M. 1 mile with Jenny and Julia in 10:49, 2 miles with Benjamin in 16:44, drive to St. George, then 2.05 in 13:43 with 0.5 in 2:45 pickup to feel race pace.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Race: St. George Painters Half Marathon (12.95 Miles) 01:10:29, Place overall: 3
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.600.0012.950.0023.55

A.M. Raced Painters Half in 1:10:29, third place after Logan Fielding (1:08:57) and Nick McCombs (1:09:00). The course measured 12.91 on my GPS, 12.92 on Logan's and 12.95 on Ted's. Ted's never measures long. So for now we'll call it 12.95, given the fact that the start was about 0.15 further ahead of where Steve Hooper and other St. George guys thought it should have been. Details to follow later.

More details. Around 30 degrees at the start but it kept getting warmer. I called out for Mr. Little Bad Legs to identify himself. He did not hear me. Then Ted noticed his legs and pointed him out to me. About 1 minute into the race I found myself right next to him, we talked, and it was discovered that it was indeed Glen Tucker as Steve suspected. But I think the name Little Bad Legs is now going to stick. I love those 5:30 pace introductions. Incidentally, that is how I met Paul Petersen as well.

We started at a brisk but comfortable pace trading quarters. In addition to myself, Nick, Logan, Dave, Little Bad Legs, and Karl Wilcock, a talented high schooler that needs to run more miles, were in the pack. This was a perfect picture moment - four FRB team members in uniform in the lead pack with police escort.

Karl looked a bit scared, so we did not make him take his quarters. Everybody else did their turn up front religiously. We went through the first mile in 5:35, followed by a 5:31. Then we hit the downhill, and picked it up - 5:19. It flattened out, but Nick pressed the pace, and we ran a 5:24. Somewhere around there we lost Karl. Then Nick put some serious pressure up the little hill, he climbed it as if that hill was not there. This lost Little Bad Legs, and made Dave show some signs of struggle. I started hurting as well, but acted normal in response to pace changes.

Now we were on some rolling hills in the neighborhood, and Nick was pressing the pace relentlessly. 5:25 on the next mile which was uphill. That hurt. Now downhill. We are moving. Next mile in 5:11. Dave fell back a bit, Nick gapped me and Logan. I told Logan to go with Nick if he felt confident he could keep up, otherwise hang around with me for a while and trade quarters so we would not both end up in no man's land. He felt good enough to go with Nick.

As we hit the bridge coming off the downhill and charging hard, the 90 degree turn on an icy surface did wonders. Nick went down then quickly got up like a hockey player, Logan did exactly the same, Dave and I saw it and eased off enough to avoid their fate. Then Dave suggested we should close the gap. I told him it was a bad idea. That was all I had the breath for then, but here is the reason. In a half marathon you should almost never forcefully close the gap. There are a few exceptions - e.g if you think the competitor had just made a move he would not be able to sustain, or if you are approaching a section with strong headwind, or if you are within a mile and a half of the finish. In distances up to 10 K it is all about how bad you can hurt. In a half marathon, it is the opposite. Any pain that is past anaerobic threshold pain makes you run eventually slower, you pay for it.

So Dave and I traded quarters for another mile, then Dave fell back. We hit the Bloomington loop. It did not seem to have one flat spot - you were on a constant roller-coaster. I focused on running steady and naturally. Even though Dave was only a few seconds behind, I felt confident about my position due to the laws of nature. I knew that as long as I hit around 5:30 flat equivalent I was safe. There is something about half-marathons. Things rarely get better between 8 and the finish, and they definitely do not get better if you fall behind.

Hit 10 miles in 54:12 (by GPS, course mile markers were fairly consistently 0.15 short), so 26:59 for 5 miles, was quite happy with that. By that time I was also fairly certain that the course would be short. This made me lose focus a bit. I was not excited about running a fast time any more because I knew it would be about a minute fast. So from then on I was just coasting, just running naturally and not trying to fall asleep. Slowed down to about 5:35 pace once we got back on the trail. I think that section had a mild grade because going the other way the same effort gave me 5:20, and I did not feel I had lost that much steam. Lots of runners coming in the other direction, many of them were cheering. That was nice. However, dodging them was an interesting exercise in eye-leg coordination. I remembered a story my mission companion once told me about how while he worked as an EMT his boss made him drive an ambulance at 90mph on the wrong side of the freeway.

Finally made it to the finish, safe in 3rd place, but Dave made a heroic effort and closed the gap to 9 seconds.

Still had some miles left for the workout, decided to use them wisely. Ran back, paced every blogger I could find. Messed up a couple of times, and mistook two fast blonds for Marcie. She would have beaten them on a good day, but I did not realize she was struggling. So I paced two Marcie-looking runners for a while, and only afterwards realized that they were taller than 5-1! But on the bright side of things they got to see the blog commercial.

Total of 20.25 for the run.

P.M. 1.1 with Jenny and Julia in 11:09, then 2.2 with Benjamin in 17:15 in St. George on the 0.55 loop near Steve's house.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From Christi on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 00:16:21

CONGRATS on your 3rd place!! It was so awesome to see so many bloggies coming in the top of the race! Thanks so much for pushing me at the end and believing in me! I know I didn't seem appreciative, but I was. It was a fun weekend with the FRB. Looking forward to the next race!

From Mike Warren on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 00:22:25

Sasha, great race! Congrats on third place, very impressive time! It was nice to meet you at the party. Enjoy your stay at Steve's and travel home safe.

From Michelle on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 00:32:41

Sounds like a great time for the FBR today down in St.Goerge! Nice job to all of you guys and it sounds like you did a great job in bringing the other runners along the way too! Great work for the whole team!!!

From James W on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 00:49:34

Congrats on a great race, Sasha! Looks like even with the course measuring a bit short, you would have beaten your Sasha science prediction!

From Kim on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 10:36:21

Sasha,

Thank you so much for helping me the last mile and a half! I may have acted like I didn't like you and what you were doing for me, but you would be the first one to tell me that that was just negative thoughts that needed to be conquered! Now that the race is over I have thought about some of the things you said along the way and I will work on those things to help me do even better next time. The ta ta ta ta ta thing is making more sense now that I am a little more coherent. Thanks again! You and that cute, patient wife of yours are awesome!

From Tom on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 10:40:29

Great race Sasha. Ditto everything Kim said. That was great of you to help so many other runners in and help them finish strong after you were finished. Kind of reminded me a good shepherd helping bring all the FRB sheep safely home! Thanks for being the good shepherd of the blog.

From JohnK on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 11:48:10

Amazing to me that you ran so well after logging 20 miles each of the two previous days. I'm curious how much faster you think you might have run had you toed the line rested?

From Steve Hooper on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 11:49:03

Sasha, Great Job on your race! Another great Sasha performance. Keep it up!

It was also great seeing you and your family this weekend. You guys are welcome anytime.

From James on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 21:07:07

Impressive run. You are running stronger now than I have ever seen you run! I think those extra recovery days are paying off. Keep it up. I'll be down close now, so I'll have to hook up with you for some weekend runs.

From MarcieJ on Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 21:09:54

Nice Job Sasha! You had a great race! It was nice to meet you and your family and thanks for the push at the end of the race!

From wheakory on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 13:28:25

Nice race Sasha... sounds like trading quarters made the pace fast and interesting. How did you feel the last few miles finishing? Did you have a good kick towards the end? I know you always like to start out fast.

From Lybi on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 14:14:29

Great job Sasha! Very nice time. Was it close to your half PR?

I especially liked that you went back and ran in so many FR Bloggers. Very nice.

PS I am trying to substitute molasses for sugar. Unfortunately it tastes like crap. Trying to remember how the pioneers would have died to shluck down this stuff with their pancakes.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 16:48:07

Everybody, thanks for the comments.

John - I think I might have run it 30 seconds faster with a taper, but no more than that. I actually felt quite fresh throughout the race. 20 miles a day is really not that hard on your body when you are not doing any speed. Especially with all the snow on the roads that forces you to run 8:00 pace or slower for a good portion of the run. Essentially it is like a long relaxing hike.

Kory - I felt good at the end, the legs were a bit stale, but you would expect that at the end of a half marathon. Nothing unusual, I would say the last 3 miles felt better than normal. I kind of spaced out the kick, though. I was distracted by the shortness of the course, not feeling a threat from behind and not particularly caring about my time I zoned out, and by the time I realized it was time to kick, I was crossing the finish line.

Lybi - this was probably a PR quality run. My PR for an aided course is 1:07:03 in Hobble Creek, but you do not impress a race director with your Hobble Creek half PR any more than you do with your 8K time from Alta Peruvian. My PR for an unaided course is a big question. I think the closest I can get to claiming a non-aided PR is 1:12:09 split in Richmond in 2003. So had the course been certified, this could have produced an official non-aided PR to put on a resume, something around 1:11:25. Quality-wise, this run was probably worth 1:09:45 on a course like Houston.

Regarding the sweetener, try honey or maple syrup instead of molasses. Or some dry fruit like dates or raisins. Molasses on their own do not taste very good, but they give you a nice flavor when you mix them with something else.

From Brent on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 17:14:08

Sasha, 100 commando points for third place, 1,000 commando points for being the good shepard bringing your bloggers home, your spirit is the blog. Great race report as usual.

Sasha Science, should be a required running class, b of bs Rools out

From Sean on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 17:33:39

Nice job Sasha. It's really too bad they can't measure a course properly. It definitely puts a damper on things. Way to hang in there.

From Paul Petersen on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 17:52:18

Nice job. Bummer on the short course. Sounds suspiciously close to a block in length, kind of like the Striders 10-miler last year.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 17:56:41

We suspect that what happened is that they measured the course right, but then somebody messed up and started us in the wrong location. I am trying hard to communicate to the race directors that after the course has been measured due respect needs to be given to the start and the finish location, those cannot be moved on a whim!

From Paul Petersen on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 18:01:18

Yeah, it's pretty aggravating as a runner to run a PR effort and not get a PR out it. Fast times and good weather do not happen every day.

From Dustin on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 19:03:40

Good Job Saturday Sasha. It was fun watching you come by. The FRB had a good showing Saturday. Disappointing the half was short again, just like last year. The 5K was pretty close. I measured 3.08 on my Garmin, but I was trying to take the corners best I could.

From Patrick on Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 19:11:31

Sasha: I thought I would send my congratulations along with many others. You had a great race and you are an amazing runner. Good luck!

Pat

From Craig on Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 00:00:35

Sasha-

As always, I thoroughly enjoyed the race description. I have a high school kid across the street that lives in my ward named Kyle Moffet. He runs XC for Alta. He's 16 and ran a 1:16:XX time at this race. He said he was 2nd in his age and 7th overall, so I'm guessing he finished behind Karl Wilcock. This was his first long race, and he said it was the toughest thing he has ever done (running-wise). I know you have opinions on how high schoolers waste their talents. I don't know if you got the chance to meet him at this race, but I'd like to share some good advice with him from someone that has a closer eye on high school talent than I do. I'll tell him about the blog as well.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 16:33:14

Craig - I did not get to talk to Kyle, only to Karl. However, I noticed he had run a mile in 4:57 in a meet. Not sure if this is his PR. If he thinks a half-marathon is harder than an all-out mile, I would imagine he trains like most high-schoolers (I'd run a half over an all out mile any day). If that is indeed the case, there would be a lot of room for improvement. Tell him to get on the blog, and we'll see what can be done.

From Kyle Moffet on Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 20:36:20

Hey, this is kyle. That was my first ever half. I really enjoyed it. As for my mile, i've run faster, however, I got phnemonia during the end of track. It was pretty bad. But since then i've sped up and I should be able to pull a sub 10 min. 3200. Do you have any advice for me? I'm racing 2 other boys in my division in the 2 mile this year and would love to be a little ahead of them.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 23:29:19

Kyle:

Advice number one is to get on the blog. The advice is most meaningful when I can see the fine details of your training overtime.

You could be quite a bit ahead of a lot of high schoolers especially in the 3200 meters if you build a very thorough aerobic base and do a thorough job of consistently maintaining it throughout the year. I left some comments in Karl Wilcock's blog at http://flash.fastrunningblog.com/blog-Run-for-Wish/02-02-2008.html

most of which will probably apply to you as well.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Got good sleep. Did not need a nap in the afternoon. Had an interesting discussion after the missionary correlation meeting in the evening with somebody who served a Russian/Ukrainian speaking mission in the Ukraine. We discussed the use of zhe. It is a Russian word that means nothing, and is randomly inserted into spoken and sometimes written sentences for flavor and emphasis. If you do not use it, your speech sounds dry. If you use it improperly, you sound like a foreigner. There are no rules for the proper use of zhe, you go completely by feel. So very hard for our missionaries to learn. As we spoke, I had a bright idea of how to teach this concept. Imagine J. Golden Kimball speaking. Every time he would insert a certain word for emphasis, that is when you say zhe in Russian!

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Karl on Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 19:19:04

Hey thanks for the tip! I'm almost recovered from the half now. I just ran a 10 mile run today and it felt great. Starting to get the mileage going again. I was running around 40-50 miles a week in November and December, but I had a few bad weeks at the start of the year. It's great to get going again. I don't know about Rohatinsky's record, but I guess I won't put it beyond me. Anyways, thanks and good luck to you!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. We got our share of snow. 10.1 with Ted in 1:19:35, form drills, then 2 with Benjamin in 17:47. Then Sarah told me the oats lady called and said our 400lb of oats we were supposed to pick up in Lindon on Saturday was getting snowed on. So she hurried there while I stayed home with the kids. Unloaded the oats after she got back, then ran 1 mile with Jenny and Julia in 11:53. Jenny still had a cough, so she is running less. Then added 2 on my own in 15:56.

P.M. Provo River 5 Mile Tempo on cross-country skis in the dark in 43:58. There was quite a bit of snow to work through. In the first and the last half mile it was clear enough to go 8:00 pace. I went 9:00 pace the rest of the way. For our Family Home Evening activity, packed the oats into buckets.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.210.000.000.0020.21

A.M. Uneventful Half with Ted in 1:41:18. The biggest even was a VPB stop for me followed by 4 miles of catching up. The road was so slippery that 7:45 was all I could do. Then 2.1 with Sarah in 23:41.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:36. Then 3 by myself in 22:31. Jenny and Julia ran 1 mile with Sarah. The event of the night was giving Zhu a jump start from VanGoGo for which VanGoGo had to drive through lots of snow front yard - the 4wd has to be good for something after all. Zhu's internal light got accidentally left on after Joseph had been playing in the car and the battery was dead before we noticed it. Jump starts when it is below 20 F outside are always a lot of fun.

Night Sleep Time: 0.11Nap Time: 0.02Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.550.000.000.0017.55

A.M. 10.1 with Ted and Jeff in 1:21:08. Very slippery still, although better than yesterday. We got beat by the 8:00 guy and we did not care as we were lost in the discussion of performance enhancing drugs and Quality X.

P.M. Had an odd night with lots of happenings, so the run consisted of fragments. 2 miles with Benjamin in 17:18. After we found Jenny's shoes, 1.75 with Jenny  in 17:04. Then 1 mile with Julia to the ice sculpture and back in 11:09. Then dinner and the Daily Dose ESL class at the church (ran there and back with Julia, total of 0.2)  followed by family scripture study. Then 2.5 in 18:45 by myself afterwards.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From wheakory on Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 16:06:01

What's the temperature like there for your morning runs?

From Christi on Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 16:59:53

Hi Sasha! Thanks again for cheering me on the last 2 miles of Painter's- I needed it! I know you're a busy guy- quick question- In order for me to qualify for Boston, I would have to run 3:45:59 at St. George this fall. That is basically the same pace I ran Painter's. How would you suggest going about training so I can extend my 1/2 marathon pace to a full marathon? Any tips?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 23:13:55

Kory:

It is a bit below 20 usually. This morning we were expecting near zero and were pleasantly surprised with 18.

Christi:

I think you have it in the bag pretty much. You just need to run no less than 6 days a week and no less than 6 miles on each run between now and St. George. No skipping, no excuses, and you've got it.

From Mike Warren on Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 23:29:41

Sasha, you have mentioned I should change my diet. Would you give me an example of your daily diet. I just ate a big piece of cheesecake, I am guessing this would not be an approved item. Seriously, I do need to make some changes, curious as to what others are doing.

From Christina on Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 04:39:24

Hi--I just came across your blog and thought I'd comment. Carbohydrates are definitely necessary for runners, but cheesecake may be taking too far. :-) My running coach tells me that baked goods are harmful to a runner's improvement. He eats six small meals a day, each including a protein, carbohydrate, and a vegetable. After we run, we drink a recovery drink so our muscles don't deteriorate after a run. Hope that helps.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 13:52:09

Mike - I posted my menu a while ago at

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,104.15.html

This is what I discovered over the years of trial and error to achieve the best balance between my body needs and my budget. Different people respond differently to different foods.

Start with the basic good conscience diet - if your current knowledge and experience tell you the food is good for you, eat it, otherwise stay away. Some general principles as you try to discover the optimal diet for yourself:

How well can you run within 15 minutes of eating it, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours? I would say anything that takes more than 3 hours to stop affecting your ability to run is bad. Anything that you can eat and run well after 15 minutes is a serious candidate for becoming a staple food.

How much processing did it take to produce the food? Something that grows on a tree, in the ground, or on a bush, and tastes good when eaten raw is usually very good. Elaborate preparation often makes the food empty of nutrients and even taste unless you add some artificial taste enhancers such as fat and sugar.

Can you eat it to satiation and feel good in the next 48 hours, including your runs? If not, it probably has some unnatural taste enhancers that make it taste better than it deserves.

Even if a food appears harmless, ask yourself if there is a food your body really needs you would not be able to eat instead because of the limited digestive capacities.

Does it taste good to you? If it does not, but some book says you should eat it, do not eat it unless that is the only food you have. If it does not taste good, your stomach does not want to digest it and if it cannot, all the nutrients will go to waste.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
21.350.000.000.5021.85

A.M. Ran 15.1 in 1:58:58. First 10.1 with Ted. Temperature was 15 F. Lots of snow on the trail still, slippery, had a hard time with 8:00 pace. There was one dry stretch where we did a couple of pickups at 5 K race pace or so, around 5:00/mile if Ted's GPS was right. It did feel like it could have been right.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 18:57, Jenny joined for the first 1.5 in 14:48. 3.75 cross-country skiing on the Provo River trail out and back on a 0.625 section in 28:46, 7:40.27 avg, which gives a 23:50 5 K. This would be a 5 K PR for cross-country skiing. The entire time I was in a running-like gait when you move both the arms and the legs as if you were running (as opposed to pushing off with both arms and gliding, or pushing off with both arms and only one leg at a time). I had to because the skis did not glide very well. I wonder what I could do on racing skis that glide optimally and a well-groomed track. Would anybody familiar with cross-country skiing  venture a guess? The effort felt like 6:30 pace running, but if I put any more, it did not seem like I was going any faster. Afterwards ran a mile with Julia in 11:29.
 

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.02Total Sleep Time: 0.15
Comments
From Lybi on Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 20:25:31

Geez Sasha, now because of your lovely little comment on my blog I can't access that entry. My web filter has blocked it out under the heading of "anger/violence/racism". Lol.

Great zhe job today. I am absolutely confounded at the zhe idea of running more zhe miles in a day than degrees over zero! You are going to be in zhe heaven when you come down for Relay del Sol.

From sarah on Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 23:45:18

Lybi...you never cease to completely crack me up..what would we do without your wonderful humor. Sasha thinks you should start learning Russian....(Big Compliment..it's like being invited to join an exclusive country club..Russians are language snobs..especially Muscovites!)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.150.000.000.0020.15

A.M. Uneventful 15.1 in 2:00:00. First 10.1 with Ted and Jeff. The events were the heat wave of 29 degrees, and a very slippery trail on the last 5 miles which slowed me down to 8:40 pace in a lot of places.

P.M. A heat wave has come - 39 F! 1.5 with Benjamin, Jenny, and Jared in 13:20. Jared was a bit behind with 13:37. Had an adventure with a couple of feisty dogs that got off their leashes. Told the kids to run ahead. Stopped and chased one dog until it started running away from us, but then it resumed the bad behavior once I started going in the planned direction. Finally decided to stop and throw a snowball at it. Being able to hit the dog with a snowball gave me a boost of confidence in my throwing skills (I've always been a very much below average thrower), and it also convinced the dog that I meant business, and it ran back to its owner. On the way back, I armed the kids with snowballs just in case, but both dogs were very timidly hiding behind their owners this time. Added another 0.5 with Benjamin and Jared in 4:29.

Then 1.05 with Sarah around the block in 11:27. Pushed Jacob and Joseph in the double stroller up to this point. Left the stroller at home, and added 2 more in 15:28. Julia ran 1.05 with Sarah.

Night Sleep Time: 0.11Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.11
Comments
From Jon on Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 13:34:26

Looks like slippery trails hit all of us, sometimes.

From wheakory on Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 13:57:35

Sasha, have you tried to go run somewhere else where its not so slippery? Sometimes I'll drive to a certain spot in town where I know the roads or path is clear. But it's always nice to be able to run back to your house without having to drive anywhere.

Nice run as usual. It was a heat wave for me today too. It was 10 degrees much warmer than the last few below zero runs.

From adam on Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 17:21:59

The DI tunnel is pretty bad (alot of black ice and very dark). I'm guessing that and the wood bridges were part of your last five miles?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 17:26:27

Adam - I went the other way. The problem was mostly the snow getting slick.

From Scott Zincone on Sat, Jan 26, 2008 at 08:01:54

Hitting a moving target with a snowball is no easy feat. Especially since you had been running. Maybe you could start a new type of biathlon. Running, then snowball throwing at targets.

Race: SLC Track Club Winter Series 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:16:25, Place overall: 4
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.800.000.003.1020.90

A.M. Raced the SLC Track Club Winter Series 5 K in 16:25.1 taking 4th place after B.J. Christensen (15:44.0), Aleksander Thomas (16:02.1), and Steve Ashbaker (16:24.2). Adam Wende was 6th with 16:54.0, Ted was 8th with 17:16.6, and James Barnes was 13th with 17:46.3.

When we got to the start, Ted's car read 19 degrees. Fortunately there was no wind. Unfortunately there was still some snow and ice on the race course. Did some jogging around, then Rebeca Walter after realizing that the race was starting at 10:00 AM and her work was starting at 10:30 AM decided to just run hard on the course by herself and asked us if we wanted to pace her. So Steve and I paced her through a 20:25 5 K for our brisk warm-up. Did some more jogging around, realized it was now warm enough to run in shorts (24F), got dressed appropriately, and jogged to the start.

The race started at Saltair and went east on the frontage road along I-80 for 2.5 K out, then back the same way to the finish. Essentially flat course with some very insignificant rises and drops, nothing greater than 0.75% grade.

Went through the first mile in 5:08. B.J, Aleksander, Albert Wint and Steve Ashbaker were ahead of me. By the mile mark, I finally caught up to Steve. That 5:08 mile felt hard. No surprise - it is the fastest mile I've run since Thanksgiving. We worked together to close the gap on Albert. 8:07 at the turnaround, we had to come to a complete stop, and then accelerate back to pace through some slush. B.J had 7:47, Aleksander 7:51. We passed Albert, he saw our FRB commercial, and we kept on moving. 10:34 at 2 miles, that was a 5:26 mile. Wow! I did not think it would be that slow. But Steve was still with me, and B.J and Aleksander were within the correct amount of distance ahead, so I figured this was just a slow mile, nothing to worry about.

Now we started seeing oncoming traffic of runners. This made it harder to run in the clear grooves, and we've been hitting slush and ice more often. Steve pressed the pace. At first, I said to myself just make it through a minute of this, then back off. I made it through a minute, it was painful, painful enough to where I would have been forced to back off in the past. But something has changed. I did not have to back off, and just kept moving along. We made it to 3 miles in 15:54, 5:20 mile, not bad at all for the third mile through all the slush and snow. Then it was time to kick. Steve picked it up, I hung on most of the way. He had a little bit more umph in the last 30 meters or so and ended up beating me by 0.9 seconds.

Ran the course again for a cool down, plus some distance to Saltair. Got some food in, then drove back with Ted and Steve.

P.M. It was pleasantly warm in Provo, 40F. 2 miles with Benjamin in 15:00, Jacob woke up and I had him in the stroller the rest of the run, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:02, 1 with Julia in 10:44, and 6 through more snow than I hoped for still pushing Jacob in 47:35.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From paula on Sat, Jan 26, 2008 at 23:47:51

Great job on the run today. I enjoyed seeing so many people from the blog out at the race today. Someday I will have to introduce myself in the flesh to some of you all.

Great run.

From Jody on Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 11:25:25

Great job !!! The FRB was well represented!

From Brent on Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 12:21:37

Sasha, guts to hang on, very impressed, good character builder race. Fighting the pain in a 5K.

B of BS Rools out

From Adam RW on Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 14:27:40

Sasha, Great run thanks to you and Steve for being that pulling force up front...

From Tom on Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 18:27:23

Nice job on the race Sasha. Sounds like FRB did great in general again!

From James on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 13:25:10

Good race on Saturday. You really seem to be running strong, and that kick is getting better!

From Lybi on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 13:35:33

Great race, Sasha! That's amazing that your threshold for pain seems to be getting even higher. I've wondered sometimes if that is a big part of that "quality X" that you talk about.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 14:15:15

My pain threshold while running is actually very low. Frozen fingers or a scraped knee hurt more than the worst pain I can put myself into from running hard. What holds me back is not the lack of conscious willingness to deal with the pain, but rather some shutdown that just happens. What was different in this race is that all the signals at 2 miles were telling me I had about a minute before the nervous system would quit, but it never did. I was not trying to be particularly tough or to motivate myself in any extraordinary way. I think the nervous system was just stronger.

From Lybi on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 14:39:59

"My pain threshold while running is actually really low." Compared to what, a decapitated chicken? You are tough Sasha, just admit it. :)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Good good sleep. Went to church. Got a nap in the afternoon.

In the evening, heard the news about President Hinckley's passing away. What a great life he lived! It is hard to comprehend. He has done a lot in 97 years, and he finished strong with the last 12 years serving as the President of the LDS Church, and being actively involved in the work. He sure practiced the doctrine of enduring to the end. 

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Comments
From JeffC on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 13:03:06

I never saw this coming so quick. He was always so vibrant and full of life that you thought he would never die. His longevity has sealed his image and example into my mind forever as he was in the first presidency for so many years prior to becoming the prophet. You're right Sasha, he is one of the greatest examples of enduring to the end.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.300.000.000.0020.30

A.M. The heat wave continues. It was 40 F this morning. A very pleasant temperature. Wore shorts and two long-sleeved shirts. Ran the first 10.1 with Ted. The trail was slippery. We fell behind the 8:00 guy by over 2 minutes in the first 3 miles. Then we got some light and dry ground, and we caught him with vengeance. What a drama! It was more entertaining than a movie. We would hit a dry spot and close 30 seconds on him. Then he gaps us on ice. Then we close again on a dry spot. Finally we are ahead of him, but the battle is not over - there is some ice up ahead. Finally, on the last 0.4 it was dry all the way, so we really showed him who's the boss and beat him by 1:03 finishing 10.1 in 1:19:45. All of this fun while spending no money and building aerobic fitness as opposed to sitting in front of a TV and just getting fat and lazy. Much good can be accomplished when you realize that joy comes from simple things.

Dropped Ted off, ran some more. About 1.7 miles later ran into Tyrel Jensen, a BYU middle distance runner, best mile in 4:05. Ran another couple of miles with him, then headed home. Ended up with about 15.8 in 2:00:39.

P.M. End of the heat wave. Got a nice snow storm, temperatures down to 25 F. Slick roads. 1 with Julia in 11:47, 2 with Benjamin in 17:42, 1.5 with Jenny in 14:27. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.12Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.12
Comments
From Paul Petersen on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 13:46:52

What if they made a movie about you and Ted catching the 8-minute guy? Would that be entertaining?

From Brent on Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 20:33:28

Does the 8 minute guy know you and Ted are trying to catch and pass him? Most runners would run until they drop rather than be passed. Lesson learned, make games out of your runs.

Stay Cool, B of BS Rools out

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
22.550.000.000.0022.55

A.M. Ran with Ted at 5:00 AM. His knee was hurting, he went only 6 miles. The roads were pretty slow, although they did not look too bad. We ran 6 miles in 54:05, got beat by the 9:00 boltushka. Boltushka is a Russian word that means "talkative woman", but Sarah and I use in a variety of other ways. One of the meanings is "a recreational female runner that runs primarily for social reasons".

Thought I'd be able to go much faster after dropping off Ted, but no luck. Ended up with 2:16:53 for 16.1, 8:30.12 average! Got beat by the 8:30 quicker boltushka.

P.M. 2.1 with Benjamin in 16:58, Jenny joined us for the first 1.75 in 14:35. The funny thing is that Jenny's average pace (8:20) was faster than on my run earlier in the morning. Julia tried to run, made it about 0.1, but her knee was hurting. Cross-country skied, tried the Provo River Trail by Geneva Road, did not like it, tried the Provo Canyon, did not like it either, but got a total of 4 miles in. Ran the church and back later in the evening for the ESL class - it was unpleasantly cold.

Night Sleep Time: 0.12Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.12
Comments
From josse on Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 11:39:05

Icey road are a bugger when you are trying to go fast.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.600.000.000.0018.60

A.M. The trail was covered with snow today. Ran with Jeff at 5:10 AM. We got beat by all kinds of boltushkas. 10.1 in 1:26:40, 8:34.85 average.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:12. The trail was quite clear. Provo City plowed it well. Tried to cross-country anyway, made it to almost a mile out, and then one of the poles got caught in the fence, and it broke the handle. Managed to make it back nevertheless, the broken handle was an annoyance but not as a big of a deal as I thought it would be. Total distance of about 1.7. Then ran with Jenny around the block, 1.75 in 15:43, added another 1.75 by myself in 12:55. A little later 1 mile with Julia in 11:19, plus some errands on foot.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. Had two interesting dreams. In the first one, Google managed to put together a very strong team that beat our team by 10 minutes in Del Sol. I woke up before finding out our finish time, then decided to go back to sleep to find out, but then as I woke up more realized that the next dream would not have that information. The next dream was very different indeed. I was running on the Provo River Trail and saw a tiger. Climbed on a tree, tried to call 911. The cellphone was not working. Finally got through, but the operator was not very helpful. Then some people came and said there was no tiger. Others said there was. I began to wonder who was right, and woke up. There was no tiger indeed.

Cold morning. Ran 5 miles with Sarah around the block in 52:34. Then decided to chase down the 8:00 guy for a challenge. I was 12:34 behind him, but I had 10.1 miles to close the gap. Would not be a challenge on a normal day, but with the snow and ice it was interesting. However, the cold temperature in combination with the abundance of asphalt patches made the task reasonably possible. I decided the 8:00 guy had a name - Ded Moroz, or Granpa Frost, the Russian version of Santa Claus. Half way through the last 10.1 of the run Ded Moroz started getting concerned, because I had closed half of the gap. However, it was getting warmer, and the roads were getting slicker, so he had that to his advantage, and was hoping he'd be able to hold me off. With a mile to go he saw me coming, and knew he was doomed unless he made me trip on ice. He tried, but I was smart enough to slow down under the bridges, and then quickly accelerate on the dry spots. Finished in 1:59:57, beat Ded Moroz by 51 seconds, 1:07:23 for the last 10.1, 6:40.3 avg, 7:56.62 avg for 15.1.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:34, first 1.5 Jenny was with us (13:28),  1 with Julia in 11:35, then 2 alone in 14:57. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.14Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.14
Comments
From Aaron on Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 17:53:46

Interesting: "Dede" is Turkish for 'grandpa.' "Ded" must be a loan word.

From Benn on Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 19:38:27

I've just been wondering, Sasha. I love the stories, but just how DO you do all those calculations while dodging the ice and snow? You are definitely a MACHINE!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 23:10:39

Benn:

I find those calculations rather simple to do. In fact, the first time I saw a timing chart with splits I wondered why anybody in his right mind would every want to buy one. I run with a $10 watch from Walmart, never press the split button (not that it would be any use anyway on that watch) and the calculations just happen in my head whether I want it or not.

From Jon on Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 23:17:13

Sasha- I don't suggest going to San Francisco zoo anytime soon.

Benn- Sasha is a lot better at doing math/splits in his head than almost anyone you will ever meet. Not joking.

From JohnA on Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 23:18:11

That is a awsome story . . . the 8:00 guy. I like that idea. I will have to try it sometime.

From steve ashbaker on Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 00:01:31

I don't suggest that you ever take Ambien either.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
23.701.000.000.0024.70

A.M. Tomorrow is going to be a very busy, so I decided to do my long run today. Ran the first 10.1 with Jeff. At first, the roads were so slick that we were trailing boltushkas - 43:37 for the first 5.05. I had never run 20 miles at the average pace of slower than 8:00, and thought today would be the day. On the way back at first things did not look so good, and then we ran a mile in 7:46. I could not believe it, double checked my calculations, yes, indeed it was 7:46! Something happened to the snow and we got more traction. We were able to run 2 more miles under 7:30 and finished 10.1 in 1:22:53.

Dropped Jeff off, ran the second half alone . Now I was excited about catching Ded Moroz, the 8:00 guy. At first things looked great - closed 42 seconds in the first 2 miles, thought I'd get him easily. But then it started snowing, and the trail got very slick again. So for the next two miles I lost ground. I thought perhaps today Ded Moroz would win. But then I got out on a good stretch of road where the snow composition was just right and gave much better traction. I took advantage of the opportunity and ran a 6:12 mile. The rest of the way was decent - it kept snowing, and the snow started covering the ice well enough to be able to run 7:30-7:50 pace. I ended up with 2:39:46 for 20.2, 7:54.55 avg.

P.M. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:28, 2 miles with Benjamin in  17:12, and 1 with Julia in 11:15.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From George on Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 21:42:37

Sasha - are your paces a function of the weather right now? Or are you backing it off to eights specifically?

From steve ashbaker on Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 10:37:24

So, Cal's name on the blog is Ded Moroz?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 14:58:01

George:

The reason and the whole humor of the situation of consistently ending up behind the 8:00 guy and having the need to chase him comes from the road conditions. On a good road, my slowest relaxing pace once I warm up is around 7:30. I never allow the pace of my easy runs to be controlled by the clock to the degree that I would run unnaturally fast or slow based on a specific time goal. I do, however, watch my splits, figure out how fast my body wants to go on any particular day, and then just for fun pick some imaginary "guy" I am going to try to chase down about 4-5 miles into the run. When the roads are good, it is often the 7:00 guy. But lately it's been the 8:00. This is particularly entertaining. On a good road, it is very scientific. I just run the pace I want to, do the math, calculate exactly where I would have to pick up to 5:40 to catch the imaginary guy, coast until it is time to go, then pick it up, blow by him at the end, and leave him in the dust. When there is snow on the road, you never know when you will have to slow down to 9:00 pace. So you do strides/fartlek of sorts - fast on dry ground, rest/recover on ice. And there is some drama to it, you never know what is going to happen.

From George on Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 21:22:02

Ah! Now I get it.

This is a dangerous game I play on the treadmill as well. On the treadmill it is maybe all the more nerve wracking because you know nearly exactly where you are (to the hundreth) and can calculate the pace to keep such and such pace for the entire run. I personally need to be careful in this game because it can make easy days a bit less than easy. 75 minute ten milers turn into 70 minute ten milers that turn into 65 minute ten milers. Almost too much data for me.

Fun game though.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 22:55:32

George:

For me, being on the Provo River Trail provides as much info as being on a treadmill. Even when there is snow on the ground, I know the landmarks. Without snow, there is a mark on the road every 100 meters.

The key to winning this game is to run slow enough in the first 4 miles to make it impossible, or at least very unattractive to catch the really fast guys. And you should always go for some easy target, and real him in slowly so you would not be tempted to catch a faster guy.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.303.800.000.0015.10

P.M. A very long day, but managed to squeeze in a 15.1 mile run. Warm day, around 35 F, ran in shorts. A lot of snow has melted. First 2 with Benjamin and Jeff in 15:35, Jeff went another 10.1 with me. We did a tempo pickup on a dry section for 1.05 in 5:50, 5:33 pace. Hit 12.1 mark in 1:28:30. Then went for 3 more to finish off 15.1. After about a quarter realized it was dry enough to run sub-6:00, so just went for it. Ran the last 2.75 in  16:07, 5:51.6 avg. Slipped on snow, but then made up on dry ground. Total time for 15.1 was 1:46:22, 7:02.65 avg. Jenny and Julia ran there regular distances with Sarah.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Got good sleep. Went to church. No nap in the afternoon - was busy with home teaching. Decided to study Bulgarian. Figured it sounds very odd to Bulgarians that a guy with my last name would not be fluent. Like a guy with the last name of Williams not being able to speak English. Sarah joined me. Due to our Russian background we were able to read and understand a lot right away. We read a general conference talk. I kept a version of the same talk open in separate tabs in Firefox in English and in Spanish. I would not have even bothered with the English version, but the Spanish translation omitted a phrase with the Bulgarian version retained. Otherwise, with the help of Spanish, I could understand everything in the Bulgarian version, but Russian and Bulgarian are different enough that I would definitely not have been able to understand it without my cheat sheet.

To me Bulgarian sounded like something spoken by a very drunk Russian. To Sarah it sounded like just like some advanced Russian that she had not yet learned.

Night Sleep Time: 10.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Comments
From George on Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 14:35:17

No running on Sunday ever?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 14:54:23

That is right, George. For religious reasons at first, but then I also realized that this has physiological benefits as well. There is something very profound in "six days shalt thou labor, and on the seventh shalt thou rest".

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.200.000.000.0020.20

A.M. Another morning of chasing Ded Moroz. We got some new snow. It was slick, but not too bad. First 2 miles were very slow (17:36), after that we were fairly consistently sub-8:00, and even low 7:00 in some really good places. Ran 10.1 with Jeff in 1:19:07, then added 5 more. Total time for 15.1 was 1:59:03.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:24, 1 with Julia in 11:08, 1.75 with Jenny in 17:14, another 0.35 alone in 2:42.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From Adam RW on Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 17:15:34

Your streak amazes me. How many of the last 12-weeks have been over 120 miles??? I guess I could look myself, but I had to comment on it.

From wheakory on Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 00:15:21

Sasha, The 120 weeks is this something new your trying, because I don't remember you running this much last your, but I could be wrong. Nice run again today.

From Lybi on Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 15:45:27

Quite a machine to chase down Santa Claus in this weather! Great job on all your super mileage!

Ok Coach, got a question for you. I have 2 fun choices for a hard workout this Sat. I could do a 5K (real race) or a half marathon time trial (not a real race). Which should I do? I will do as you say as always...er...almost always. :)

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 14:03:48

Adam - I've been doing 120s since late August with a couple of breaks to taper for the marathons + one week of recovery afterwards.

Kory - yes, this is something new. I figured out how to carbo-reload and sleep, and am feeling better at 120+ now than I used to at 90.

Lybi - I think a 5 K in a race after a 3 mile warm-up followed by a 3 mile cool-down is a good idea. Do not worry about your finishing time, just run hard and have fun.

Everybody - I am still puzzled why so few people use the Training Review Requests board when they have a question. Maybe I need to make the explanatory note on the Add/Edit entry page bigger or somehow more obvious. The first thing I read every day is that board to see if anybody needs advice. Also, if you ask it there as opposed to my blog, other team members are likely to see the question as well, and can often provide a quicker and better answer. I will, of course, say something if I do not completely agree or feel an additional comment is needed for some other reason, but then you have the benefit of two or more opinions.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
22.350.000.000.0022.35

A.M. Slippery roads but not as bad as in the last few days. 1.75 with Sarah in 19:36, then 14.2 alone on the trail in 1:45:47, 7:26.97 average. Much better than the recent Ded Moroz chases.

Got a punching bag yesterday. A little family history about a punching bag. My great-uncle, whose name incidentally is Sasha Pachev as well, lived in a small village near Sukhumi, a town in Abkhazia on the shore of the Black Sea. He had a son. When he went to school at the age of 7 he was getting beat up by older kids. Uncle Sasha solved the problem by getting him a punching bag. Soon enough his son was not getting beat up anymore.

We do have a different purpose for the punching bag, though. I want to see if hitting it might activate my arm muscles, which I hope in turn will result in the improvements in the nervous system in general. It is good for Benjamin as well as he happens to be exceptionally feisty some days.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:44. Jenny joined for the first 1.5 in 13:12. 1 with Julia in 10:48. We saw the BYU team. Somehow all those good looking young men got Julia, who is only 5, thinking about dating. She said to me: "Daddy, what did you do when you were a teenager?" I replied that  I ran. She clarified: "No, that is not what I mean. What kind of girls liked you?"  

Then we went to the Hobble Creek Canyon. The kids were sledding, and I cross-country skied 3 miles. The road was very rough the entire way, however there were a couple of good spots in the parking lot and around it, which gave me a chance to discover that I could skate at a good speed with my new poles. The entire time I did not realize that my old poles were too short. So I never got a good push off from the arms. I just thought my arms were too weak. With the new poles I could skate up a 3% grade and feel strong, while with the old ones I felt like I was going to stall even on a 1% down. I think now I am beginning to understand why I beat everybody in my school, and even in my district, but then got beat by some ridiculous amount in the Moscow championship. In the school and in the district everybody was skiing on whatever they happened to have. In the city championship I was racing serious skiers that had proper gear.

One day I should go to Soldier Hollow and see what I can do a well-groomed course with my new poles.

Ran random errands for 0.4 miles. Afterwards we went to vote. We spent 2 hours in line. Our friends watched our kids. We considered going home to avoid the socks/hand-written Russian dictation punishment for missing the bed-time curfew, but figured that fulfilling our civic duty was a noble exception. We ended up being only 5 minutes late.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Brent on Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 22:26:53

Father winter? Time for his departure, shall I say, we have had enough of the frozen tundra.

B of BS Rools out

From Adam RW on Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 22:27:33

The bag will also be great stress releaver. I used to use one after all my weight lifting in high school. It made the trip to UT but is sitting in the garage I just need to find a place to put it up.

From Lybi on Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 13:33:36

Sasha, did you see my comment from yesterday? Please advise, I will comply...

Let us know how that punching bag works out for Benjamin--we've got three little tykes who are also quite feisty.

From crumpyb1 on Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 19:53:18

Sasha, there is a wonderful (at least 4 mile) cross-country skiing course a half a mile from my apartment. Grab Sarah, your kids, and your skis and come visit!

From Kyle on Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 20:49:58

Thanks for the advice! I'll try those 3 milers in the morning. With more help like this, I actually might have a chance this season. Thanks!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.600.000.000.0018.60

A.M. Easy 10.1 with Jeff at 5:10 AM in 1:14:19. Ded Moroz was ahead of us in the first 2 miles, but then the road cleared up, and we woke up on top of it, so we caught him quickly and left him in the dust.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:51. She was wondering if we'd see the BYU team on the trail again, but we did not. Then took VanGoGo to Computune to check the power steering system and the coolant leak (another one), and ran from there with Benjamin and Jenny. 2.25 in 19:55. Jenny thoroughly beat the 9:00 girl with Benjamin's encouragement closing the last mile in 8:28. Then 5 more by myself in 36:56. Some slippage on the trail, but a lot less compared to my recent Ded Moroz adventures. A random errand - 0.25 later in the evening.

Night Sleep Time: 0.11Nap Time: 0.01Total Sleep Time: 0.12
Comments
From Brent on Fri, Feb 08, 2008 at 22:23:08

Sasha, thanks for responding. Just after turning 50 I broke my clavical, cracked ribs, mountain biking. I was away from running for couple of months. Just never got that drive back, and never broke 20 min. in a 5K again. For about 5 years suffered thru many injuries trying to get back. Finally, last year, changed my running to only one hard day a week with easy runs for the remainder. I have stayed injury free and have been able to move my avg. miles to about 69 a week avg. for the last three months. I guess, the big question how to get the quad strength back again, that seems to be what is missing, hill quad strength. Hill work wipes me out for a week. Maybe I have answered my own question. But, I had my best marathon year since turning 50 last year by picking up on a comment you made about using 1/2 marathons as long training runs. Maybe it is just age and not much can be done, placed 9th out of 186 in my div. at St.George last year. This tells me that older runners are losing that rythmic drive. Is this like Austin Powers and his mojo? Whatever it takes to get under 3:10 at St.George, advice would be taken serious. Thanks, Run Hard, B of BS Rools out

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
21.000.000.000.0021.00

A.M. Ran alone. Uneventful 15.2 in 1:46:13, 6:59.28 avg. The roads were decent, although still quite a bit of snow and ice. But they were decent enough to average sub-7:00. One of those rare special times lately.

P.M. Eventful afternoon. Logistical problem. Tasks: take kids for their runs, take them to the library, retrieve VanGoGo from the car shop, get some running in, and go cross-country skiing. Solution: put the skis and boots in Zhu, take the kids to the library on foot via a scenic route. Sarah picked up Julia at 1.12 mark (12:10). We then continued on to the library with Benjamin and Jenny reaching it in 21:03 (2.03 miles). I continued to Computune (3.05 in 28:29), turned out they found nothing wrong with power-steering, and they could not reproduce the noise that bothered us. I demonstrated the noise, they will be diagnosing it tomorrow. Took VanGoGo to the library, left it there for Sarah, now she had a way of taking them back home, took Zhu to the Provo Canyon, skied 2.5 miles in 27:29, the conditions were not good, either deep snow, or hardly any snow, cannot push off well with the poles.

Also ran a short errand (0.25 miles) later.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Comments
From Mike Warren on Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 23:38:56

Good miles! I ran one day this week on ice (Monday). I have to tell you, if it was everyday I doubt running would be my thing. You guys up North are some tuff cookies, Nice job!

From Ruthie on Fri, Feb 08, 2008 at 00:03:47

I just wondered, what do you eat for birthday cake? You have to stick the birthday candles in something, what do you use? Or do you not blow out candles?

From Kim on Fri, Feb 08, 2008 at 10:31:12

Wow! What a way to make it all happen! You guys have it all together! I have a sign in my house that says "we may not have it all together, but together we have it all." At your house it would have to say "we have it all together and we have it all together!"

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Feb 08, 2008 at 14:01:48

I think Sarah made a healthy cake a couple of times, but we did not put 30+ candles in it if I remember right. To tell you the truth, I actually like life without a birthday cake better, and not because I am getting old. I actually feel quite young, and it comes to me as a shock that the guys I run with or against have often lived for less than I've run. Or that I vividly remember 1980 Olympics, President Carter, my mom's dismay when Reagan was elected, Brezhnev speaking on TV on all the 4 channels at the same time, and then getting a day off at school for his funeral, etc. It almost feels like I got a glimpse of all of that from the pre-existence, and somehow manage to access that memory now. But nevertheless, for some reason my birthday is not a big deal to me, and I do not like to make too big of a deal about it.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.300.000.000.0020.30

A.M. Ran with Jeff. More snow today. He is getting married in a couple of weeks. As we were talking about it, we noticed that somebody drew a heart on the snow. How appropriate! Dropped Jeff off at 10.1 (1:19:16), and ran some more. Ran into a guy named Drew and joined him. Then we found Tyler, and he joined us. Drew then continued to BYU, and Tyler and I ran to my house. About 15.3 in 2:00:55.

P.M. A warmer evening. Some snow melted. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny  in 13:00 pushing Jacob in the double stroller. Then 1 mile with Julia in 10:16, and 2.5 alone in 18:03. The last 2.5 were somewhat of a steeplechase without the hurdles, but with a water pit nevertheless. Landed in a big deep puddle of water under the bridges 4 times.

Night Sleep Time: 0.13Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.13
Race: SLC Track Club Winter Series 10 K (6.214 Miles) 00:32:59, Place overall: 3
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.400.004.002.2123.61

A.M. Raced SLC Track Club Winter Series 10 K in 32:59.6, 3rd place after Aleksander Thomas (31:46.5) and BJ Christensen (32:22.7).

Brought Benjamin and Jenny with me to the race. We picked up Steve Ashbaker on the way as well. Warmed up with Steve and Adam 2 miles. The weather was close to ideal, about as ideal as you can expect it in February - about 34 degrees, 8mph cross-wind which I thought at first was going to be neutral, but it ended up overall favoring the second half.

Benjamin and Jenny were both in the race with the following compensation package from Daddy:

Benjamin (age 8)

  • Appearance fee - $2
  • Bonus for finishing the race - $2
  • Quality time bonus - $1/minute for the gap on the 50:00 guy
  • Competitive bonus - $0.10 for each defeated male competitor, $0.05 for each female

Jenny (age 7)

  • Appearance fee - $2
  • Bonus for finishing the race - $2
  • Quality time bonus - $1/minute for the gap on the 1:00:00 girl
  • Competitive bonus - $0.20 for each defeated male competitor, $0.10 for each female

I knew that given my focus on base and virtually no speed work aside from a few races and tempo pickups, my threshold pace would be very high and would feel very comfortable, but I would not have very much room above it both in the dimension of how much faster I could go, and in how long I could stay there. So the plan was to run threshold pace to 4 miles, and then if I felt good, go into the 10 K race pace misery zone and try to make up some time. I figured the threshold was somewhere around 5:20.

Steve and I worked together from the start. In the first mile there were a couple of guys with us, but they fell back shortly before the mile mark. First mile in 5:20, second in 5:20 as well. 2.5 K in 8:18, 3 K in 9:57, 4 K in 13:18. BJ and Aleksander were around 5:05, and it did appear that Aleksander was pressing the pace while BJ was just hanging on hoping for the best.

Felt some unfriendly wind, but it was not a killer, especially when trading leads. On the third mile the wind picked up, or maybe we just changed the direction a bit to make it more unfriendly. We slowed down to 5:29. I think we slowed down more than we should have, though, because I felt a bit of an easement in the effort. Shortly before the mile marker 3 I moved up and pressed the pace a bit.

16:44 at the 5 K mark. The 5:20 guy is ahead, not good. Oh well, hopefully he would not put too much distance on us. Thinking maybe 33:25 is possible with a strong last mile and if we do not lose focus in the next 2. 20:05 at 6 K, 21:32 at 4 miles. That is an improvement - 5:23 mile with a 180 in the middle. I was encouraged. Saw Benjamin around 19:10 into the race, and Jenny around 20:37. Not enough oxygen to figure out how fast they were going, especially now that Steve started to press the pace and take me right into that 10 K misery zone. However, still enough oxygen to calculate that the 5:20 had 12 seconds on us. That is better, we lost only 3 seconds, and the next mile would have no headwind (hopefully), and no 180 turn.

22:40 with 2 miles to go. 7 K in 23:25. That was 1 K in 3:20, a bit faster than 5:22 pace. Lost some ground on the 5:20 guy, but looks like were are not going to lose any more, Steve is pressing the pace pretty hard trying to lose me. I am experiencing what one could call tepid comfort, like you are sitting in a bathtub, the water keeps getting colder, but the room is even colder than the water so you try to stay in the bathtub for as long as you can. In this case, Steve's back was the bathtub, and he was trying to lower the temperature of the water as much as possible.

7.5 K in 24:59. We are still behind the 5:20 guy, but we are now 1 whole second ahead of the 3:20/km guy, very encouraging! And we closed 5 seconds + gained one in just 500 meters!

5 miles in 26:48. That is progress. The 5:20 guy has only 8 seconds on us. We ran the last mile in 5:16. 1 mile to go - 27:55. I add 5:20 to that, this gives me 33:15 and brings a smile to my face. I know that barring a major disaster I have a 5:20 mile in me with the help of a kick, and 33:15 would give me a 24 second 10 K PR for a non-aided course. But Steve is not happy with that, he keeps pressing. I see Saltair in the distance and it keeps getting bigger fast. I like that.

32:02 at 6 miles. We just ran a 5:14 mile, and we are headed for a very low-33:00. I was just about to open my mouth to share the good news with Steve, but three things precluded me: a) I was out of breath b) it was time to kick c) I realized that there was a remote chance of dipping under 33:00.

So, time to kick. I do not like that. The bathtub was still quite comfortable even though the water kept getting colder and colder. Very appropriately, I had the frozen Great Salt Lake in my view. A kick is like jumping from a lukewarm bathtub into a frozen lake. Steve shifted gears, I am still there, the water got colder, but I am still in the bathtub. If I am going to do my best today, I need to get out of the bathtub. So I reluctantly move alongside Steve with about 250 to go positioning myself for the final dash. My instincts tell me now is the time to strike.

Out of the bathtub! I floored it for about 50 meters knowing that once you get up to speed you can run off the momentum for a while even if the anaerobic bear jumps on your back. Steve did not respond. I am approaching the clock. It says 32:52, 32:53... I was already satisfied with the race, and felt like just coasting to the finish, but somewhere deep inside me there came an urge to break 33:00. It worked against my will. I felt the finish line pulling me towards it, except my legs had to do the work to accomplish the pull. I leaned forward right as a crossed the finish line to make sure I would get every fraction of a second available to me. 32:59.6 official time, a 40 second PR for a non-aided course. 57.6 from 6 miles to the finish, that is a 67 second quarter speed! This is a 4 second PR for the 10 K kick! Last mile in 5:04, last 2 miles in 10:19, last 3 K in 9:34, and last 5 K in 16:15! PR for the last mile of a race 5 K or longer with the exception of Alta, PR for the last 5 K of a 10 K I think even if you count the last 5 K of Magna. And all of that from pretty much pure base!

Steve had a great race as well finishing in 33:02.0 with a new 50 second non-aided course PR.

Immediately after we finished we ran back to meet Benjamin and Jenny. Steve paced Benjamin while I paced Jenny. Benjamin finished in 45:38.8 with the splits of 22:27 - 23:11, 58th place out of 230 finishers, and earned a total of $21.80. Jenny finished in 53:06.4, 111th place, having chicked 67 out 141 men. I hope getting chicked by a 7 year old girl running her first 10 K would give them a reason to get on the Fast Running Blog and start training better. Jenny did a negative split of 26:50 - 26:16 with the last mile in 8:01. She earned $29.49.

Note that Benjamin runs only 2 miles a day, while Jenny runs only 1.5. But they do it 6 days a week. No longer runs. Their longest training run is when our cars needs attention and we run 2.25 from or to the car shop. And this fortunately does not happen often enough to have any lasting training effect. Nevertheless, with this kind of training they are able to not just finish a 10 K but race it and hold their own in the closing miles. What this tells me is that the frequency of the runs plays a very important role in building endurance, and a decent level of endurance can be built when the frequency is good even if the length is lacking.

FRB had a decent showing, with Adam Wende taking 5th place in 34:33.0, James Barnes 9th in 36:08.0, Terry Bean 11th overall and winning the masters in 37:46.4, and Tom Lee running not only a huge 10 K PR, but beating his possibly short course 5 K PR time from last summer doubled by 12 seconds with 38:39.7, 16th overall and 2nd master. A number of other runners set PRs and won or placed high their age divisions.

P.M. Ran 11.7 miles in 1:27:35, met a runner named Austin, a BYU student, ran with him for a while. Also ran a mile with Julia in 11:18 later in the evening.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Kim on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 14:18:50

Sasha, that was such a great play by play, I felt like I was there watching you! Oohhh...I was there watching you! But I feel like I was watching you the whole way with that great race report!

For those of you who aren't aware, we have a picture of that great kick he is talking about on Tom's race report. (tom.fastrunningblog.com), check it out!

From Jon on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 14:22:10

You definitely win the prize for most words per mile in a race report...

From Jody on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 14:32:39

Great race!! Way to PR! It was great to meet you on Saturday!

From Lybi on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 14:37:01

What an exciting race report! I was almost holding my breath at the end. Very good news, Sasha! This is quite a break through for a mid-winter race to be so fast. Congratulations! Can't wait to see what this coming year has in store for you.

From Tom on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 14:45:16

Great race Sasha! I didn't realize when I talked to you after the race this was a PR. Also congrats on finding the massive kick at the end. I really like the bathtub analogy. I'm wondering if I've ever really gotten out of the tub yet in a race. I'll think I'll be thinking about that late in my next race.

Great that Kim took that picture of you and Steve right during "the kick". I think the grimace on your face says it all. Steve had a great race too, as far as the picture I hope he doesn't feel like one of those NBA players who end up in the poster with the superstar dunking on his head!

From Jon on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 14:53:27

Nice race, too. I have to chuckle that you track PR's for 10k kicks and for last mile and 5k's of races. Keep up the good work and you can hopefully set more PR's this year.

From jtshad on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 15:01:52

Smoking race and a great PR. You are running very well, Sasha, keep it up. I look foward to seeing you in action at the Del Sol!

From Paul Petersen on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 15:35:10

Great job! Impressive due to lack of any speedwork, but perhaps not too surprising. Tinman often writes that the greater the proportion of slow-twitch muscles, the less helpful speedwork is. Thus, a guy like yourself may thrive most off of pure high mileage.

From Tyler on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 16:43:22

Awesome race! Loved the bathtub analogy. I'm sure it will be going through my head during my next race.

From George on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 20:32:10

Nice job. Good indicator of things to come.

From Brent on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 20:36:24

Shasha, breath taking report, 100 commando points for the 10K PR and 50 for the 5K PR and another 100 for third place. 500 points for the wincing and sheer guts. We have all learned from you running advice, your race report should be required reading for mental toughness.

Stay Cool, Tough as Nails, B of BS Rools out

From saamijeff on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 21:17:46

Above comment says it better than I ever could. Great report.

From Shauna on Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 21:32:32

Great job! I loved your report and the bathtub analogy.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Got good sleep. Went to church. Went with missionaries to help translate for a couple of adopted teenage kids from the Ukraine. They spoke a dialect that was some mix of Russian and Ukrainian that I was able to understand without problems to my great surprise. They understood my Russian as well without problems. What I thought was interesting, though, is that apparently they were not able to speak real Russian. I have talked with Ukrainians before, and they have always spoken the cleanest Russian they knew, maybe with an accent, once they realized that was the only Slavic language I could speak. This was the first time I've ever spoken with a Slavic language speaker in the gift-of-tongues mode - I speak Russian, he does not know it, but understands it, he speaks whatever he speaks that is not Russian, but somehow I understand it as well.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.101.250.000.0020.35

A.M. Finally the roads are clear enough to go a more normal pace the entire way. Warm weather, around 32 degrees, ran in shorts. Ran 5 miles with Ted and Jeff at around 7:30 pace, dropped off Ted, then we ran a bit under 7:00 pace, then the devil entered into us and we ran a 6:10 mile. We decided to chase the 7:00 for 10 miles, and closed with a 5:49 mile. I continued for 5 more miles, ran some with Matt Anderson who I found on the trail, ended up with 1:43:54 for 15 miles. 

P.M. 1 mile with Benjamin and Jenny in 9:56, 0.35 with Julia in 3:36, then 4 alone in 29:45. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.500.000.000.0020.50

A.M. Easy 6 with Ted in 46:08, then about 1.5 with the missionaries. They are supposed to exercise 30 minutes a day 6 days a week according to the mission rules, but they have been slacking off. I had a scripture for them ready - Hebrews 5:8, and told them that this morning they were going to learn obedience by the things they suffer. Then ran 3 miles with Sarah, and 4.5 more by myself. Total time for 15 was 2:01:40.

P.M. 3 miles cross-country skiing, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 14:23, 1 with Julia in 10:45. Had the missionaries over for dinner. They were taken to task for being out of shape by the mission president's wife as well.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.33Total Sleep Time: 7.08
Comments
From James on Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 20:42:04

Hey, I wanted to tell you that you ran very well on Saturday. I am impressed with how you are racing and even the little kick you seem to be developing or finding. Keep it up!

From Mike Warren on Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 00:10:22

Nice job, taking care of the missionaries! Your miles are also looking good. Have you ran the striders half? That is ran on the Ogden course right? If so, is it the first or second half? I was thinking about running it, to get a feel for Ogden.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 17:23:42

Strider's Half is approximately the first half of the Ogden marathon. About 80% overlap. Slightly slower - you start at around mile 2 of the Ogden Marathon, so you miss some good downhill, and then to make up you go further, and you go uphill slightly in that section. Good Ogden practice, good chance to appreciate why you do not get good bang for the elevation drop buck in the marathon. Strider's 30 K is also a good race for Ogden training. You get to experience the worst part of the marathon course, it rolls at 5000 feet the entire way, and it is long enough, of all races it is the most reliable predictor of your Ogden finish.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.750.000.000.0018.75

A.M. Ran with Ted and James. Dropped Ted off at 6 miles. Total of 10 miles in 1:17:30.

P.M. 1.5 with Jenny in 14:20, 1 with Julia in 11:18, 4 alone in 29:16, 2 with Benjamin in 16:33, and a small 0.25 mile errand. It snowed a bit, and it was windy, but I enjoyed good traction while I could.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Kyle on Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 19:53:33

Hey Sasha!

I tried to do the workout u suggested over this week. I was wondering if u could check it and tell me if thats about what I should b doing. Its been a stretch, because i've never done close to this many miles, but its felt pretty good. I'll b doing 9 to 12 2morrow. I just was wondering what a good week would b.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
23.070.000.000.0023.07

A.M. The morning was off to a bad start. I looked outside and the ground was covered with snow. Ted was running over 10 minutes late. This was very much unlike him - he is usually at least a couple of minutes early. I figured maybe he decided not to risk his knee this morning. I was not looking forward to running 15 miles all alone through several inches of snow. Then suddenly out of nowhere Adam showed up. We had barely run 0.05 out when we saw Ted's car. He lives further up the mountain and it took him a long time to dig himself out of the snow this morning. We turned around, and started the run again with Ted. Ted and Adam ran 6 miles with me. Then I decided to go for 10 more instead of 9 since I did not know where the 9 mile turnaround would be. The pace was very slow, I decided not to fight the snow and enjoy nature. Ended up with 2:14:47 for 16.1, 8:22.3 average,  plus the initial 0.1, which makes it 16.2 for the run.

P.M. Took Benjamin cross-country skiing at Soldier Hollow. Was pleasantly surprised that it takes only 40 minutes to drive there. Benjamin really enjoyed it, he stood on skis much better than the first time  a year ago. This was his second time ever cross-country skiing. I ended up with 3.87 miles in 32:48, some of which included towing Benjamin with a harness. I went out and back to him the rest of the time. Soldier Hollow course was not as flat as I thought it would be. Going up by myself I slowed down to 10:00 in some places, then going down I went 6:15. On a short stretch that was truly flat I was able to go 7:30.

Then ran with the kids later. 0.5 with Benjamin in 4:19, then Jenny joined us and ran 1.5 in 13:25, this gave us 17:44 for 2 miles. Then another mile with Julia in 11:48.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.501.000.750.2520.50

A.M. Discovered that Clyde was in town from his blog. Called him and invited him to run with us. He was without wheels so I picked him up at his hotel. We started early and ran 6 miles before meeting Ted and Jeff. The trail was mostly clear with occasional snow/ice patches.

We started slow, 8:47 for the first mile. Then gradually sped up to 8:00. Half way through I realized we were not going to make it on time unless we sped up to 6:00 pace, so we did. Clyde was cold at first, then he got feisty, and hit a quarter in 1:23. That hurt. I missed the time on the next one, but it was probably just as fast. But it hurt less. On the last quarter before my house Clyde pushed the pace again, and we ran a quarter in 1:21 with three 90 degree turns, one on ice. That hurt as well.

We waited for Jeff then decided he was not going to make it and started without him. Clyde and Ted mostly chatted about wrestling, and I just listened. Which was just fine as the pace quickly progressed into the low 7:00 range. Even though I can race a marathon at 1:20 per mile faster than that on the same terrain, I do not enjoy conversations at 7:00 pace, I cannot maintain it without focus, and it is hard to focus on the pace and the conversation at the same time. Then about 2.5 miles away from my house I hit a VPB, and this gave Jeff a chance to catch up. Turned out he had a hard time clearing off his car windows.

Dropped Ted off 12 miles into the run at his 6 mile mark. Went for another 4 with Clyde and Jeff. Clyde needed to be back by 8:00. So we gradually picked up the pace to around 6:20 range. It took just as much effort at 7:00 earlier - both felt hard. Then I noticed we were on track to catch the 7:00 guy for the whole run. With 0.25 to go I announced that we needed to close 9 seconds. I did not realize that Clyde was bad at math. All we needed to do was continue at 6:20 pace. Clyde picked it up to 5:20 instead. Then with 100 to go he shifted gears again. We ended up running the last 100 in 18 seconds, which included a 90 degree turn on ice. Our last quarter was 1:18.5, and we beat the 7:00 guy by 17 seconds. Our time for 16 miles was 1:51:43.

P.M. 2 miles with Benjamin in 15:25, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:20, 1 with Julia to her friend's house via a scenic route in 11:01, 0.35 from the friend's house alone, back to the friends house later (0.25) to pick Julia up. 


Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From MichelleL on Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 23:08:05

No need to knock Clyde because he is speedy! I actually get kind of slow in the brain when I am running--math gets harder for me, especially the faster I am going.

From Superfly on Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 11:08:45

My math skills are basic at best. But when it's just over 10 degrees outside they may even be poor.

Good run Sasha. Thanks for picking me up and driving me around. See ya at Del Sol.

From Dustin on Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 15:57:09

I think it was just a year or so ago that Clyde even started wearing a watch, before that his concept of time was fast, faster, fastest.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.0010.000.000.0025.00

A.M. Long run. Cold morning. The temperature was 12F at the start at 6:00 AM. Wore racing flats for a change. My feel felt like they have missed the feel of the ground.

Started with Ted, Jeff, and Tyler. Tyler's ankle started hurting, so he turned around after 0.2 to be safe. Talked about politics the first 6 miles. Averaged barely under 7:30 - 44:38. The road conditions were good - very little ice or snow, mostly dry ground.

Dropped Ted off, continued with Jeff. We gradually progressed from 7:30 pace to sub-6:30. Passed a large group of runners. One of them acted liked he wanted to challenge us. I encouraged him, but he was only kidding. This got my adrenaline flowing a bit, and the pace dipped under 6:20. It felt good. We gradually closed on the 7:00 guy, and passed him about 11.52 into the run. Jeff pressed the pace a bit afterwards. I needed to go to the bathroom bad, but figured the quicker we ran the quicker I'd get there, so I just toughed it out. Our last two quarters were 1:29 and 1:25, the 6 mile stretch in 38:47, and 1:23:25 at 12 miles.

Dropped Jeff off, went to the bathroom, prayed with the family, talked to Logan on the phone, then went for the remaining 8 at a tempo pace. I figured with all the clothes, the cold, the bridges, and being at the end of a 20 mile run, anything under 6:00 would be good. Hard to get going after a stop. First two quarters in 1:33 and I felt like I was pushing it. Then I got into a groove and started hitting 1:27 - 1:28 quarters when the road was good. A few 1:30 - 1:33s with slippage, micro-hills, and sharp turns. A couple of 1:29s when I let my mind drift. Somehow a song from Кавказская Пленница movie came to mind:

Где-то на белом свете,
Там, где всегда мороз,
Трутся спиной медведи
О земную ось.

"Somewhere in the world where it is always freezing the bears are rubbing their backs against the rotational axis of the earth."

I felt I was in that place with the bears, and maybe even helping them rotate the axis with my legs.

Ended up with 47:28 for the last 8 miles, 5:56 average. Total time for 20 miles was 2:10:53, 6:32.65 average. Felt strong but not fast at the end, probably due to the cold and the clothes. Interestingly enough, it took me almost 4 minutes less to run 20 today than it did to run 16.1 on Thursday.

P.M. It was much warmer. I ran in shorts. 2 with Benjamin in 17:02, continued on to finish 5, threw in a couple of tempo pickups to test the nervous system. Ran 0.5 in 2:54 up 1% grade with a bit of a roll, and then 1 mile in 5:35 down 1% grade again with a roll. Total time for 5 was 36:47.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Maria on Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 17:34:32

"Кавказская пленница" is one of the great Soviet comedies. I watched it last time just couple of years ago, and it is still funny, no matter how outdated the setting or camera work. I think I even bought it on DVD last time I was in Moscow. Unfortunately, my daughter doesn't get a lot of it, even if she understands the language... Also, Sasha, speaking of Russian memories, I don't know if you are aware, but there is this relatively new website, www.odnoklassniki.ru, where you are likely to find your school and college classmates. I found most of my high school class, some of my college class, and even some of my track teammates from college! Too bad, I didn't find anyone from Znamenskie group. It is very amusing to see some people 18 years later or find out how their lives have turned out! It was also amusing to me that so many still remember me. I bet no one in your class could predict where you will end up, your story is more unusual than others :).

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Went to church. In spite of a good night sleep, I managed to drift off during Sunday school. Got woken up by everybody laughing. I wondered if they were laughing because somebody asked me a question, but then I realized they were laughing about something else. Took a nice nap afterwards.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
21.400.000.000.0021.40

A.M. First 2 with Daniel, Ted, and Jeff. Daniel turned around. Dropped Ted off at 6. Dropped Jeff off at 10. Was planning on only 15, but ran into John Kotter from BYU, and decided to add a little extra with him. He told me a story about being chased by a pack of seven stray dogs in Moscow while on a run with a bunch of top Utah high school runners. He said it was somewhat similar to that joke about two runners and a bear: "You think you can out run a bear?" "No, but all I need to do is outrun you!" Ended up with 2:17:00 for about 18.4.

P.M. 0.5 with Benjamin in 4:19, then Jenny joined us and we ran another 1.5 in 13:12, total of 17:31 for 2. Then 1 with Julia in 11:07. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From josse on Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 18:34:12

I was wondering if I could come join you and the boys on one of your easy days for around 10 miles? I need to start at least by 5:30 am.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.550.200.400.0021.15

A.M. 10.1 with Josse and Jeff in 1:16:04. I noticed Josse was conversational at 7:20 pace, and suggested we test her fitness, to which she agreed. We let her set the pace for 0.5, which we did in 3:10. Then I had a VPB, and did a bit of a tempo pick-up to catch up. Afterwards, we paced Josse to a 6:23 mile, which would have been about 6:21 without an ice patch. Dropped Jeff and Josse off, and went for another 5. Did a 300 meter pickup in 59 seconds to probe 15 K race pace.

The original plan was to do a mile time trial indoors. I was curious how fast I could run a mile all out. But after some thought I decided it would be a bad idea. I get injured on the track easily, and the dust, the germs, and the stress of an all-out mile, all being something I have not adapted to, could easily bring on a respiratory infection or some other illness. So I decided I should be satisfied to know that I can run a 5:04 at the end of a flat 10 K and leave it at that.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:09, Jenny joined for the last 1.5 in 13:05. 1.05 with Julia in 11:42. 3 miles cross-country skiing in the Hobblecreek Canyon.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.000.000.000.0018.00

A.M. Ran with Ted and Jeff. Dropped Ted off at 6 miles. Total of 10 miles in 1:13:17. 

P.M. It was warm. Around 35-40 F. Ran in shorts. Benjamin announced at the start of his run that it takes  220 muscles to take a step. Then he proceeded to use all of those very well to run 2 miles in 15:20 without too much of an effort. Pushed Jacob and Joseph in the double stroller for this portion. Then ran 3.5 alone in 24:17, 6:56.29 pace. Then 1 mile with Julia in 10:18, and 1.5 with Jenny in 13:02. Met Brad Skidmore on the trail. He is going to run with us tomorrow.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.290.000.810.0020.10

A.M. 10.1 with Brad in 1:22:42. The trail was slippery. You would not think it should be with so little snow, but it was. I could barely move. Dropped him off and decided to go the other way. It was a lot better. I decided to run a bit a race pace or close to feel it better, so hit 0.8125 in 4:26, this is 5:27.38 pace. Had a hard time getting going, but eventually eased into 5:20 pace. Total time for 15.1 was 1:57:16.

For those who read my blog, but do not read the discussion board. We need a babysitter for this Saturday. Click here for details.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:11, then 3 alone in 20:53. Jenny and Julia did their usual runs with Sarah.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.200.000.000.0020.20

A.M 15.2 in 1:56:09. Had Brad and Adam with me in the early miles, and found Matt Anderson at the end.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:38, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:01, 0.5 alone in 3:31, and 1 with Julia in 10:41. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Jon on Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 16:42:54

Do you realize you are on pace for 6400+ miles this year!?! Amazing.

Race: SLC Track Club Winter Series 15 K (9.321 Miles) 00:50:43, Place overall: 3
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.600.209.000.3222.12

A.M. Raced in the SLC Track Club 15 K. Warmed up a bit over 3 miles at a Kenyan warm-up pace - around 8:30 at the start with the entire FRB team. Then it was time to race. My goal was to run under 50:00, which is slightly sub-5:22 pace. I figured we'd go out at 5:20 and just try to hold it. Maybe slip off in the middle, then gain back on the kick.

BJ Christensen and Aleskander Thomas took off as I expected them to. Steve and I worked together trading leads. There was a slight head wind. Or so I thought. First mile in 5:18. It felt easy, but at the same time I got this feeling - I do not want to race even though the pace is easy, in fact I do not want to race at all. I've had it before. I think I know what it means - nervous system fatigue. That is bad news, I've had nervous system fatigue before. The pace feels aerobically easy, but at the same time with every exertion of effort I cannot break 5:40. I was expecting it today in some degree, though, as I have not been sleeping very well - waking up too early from excitement about life with everything that is going on. I tried to mitigate that as much as possible with naps, but apparently it did not work as much as I hoped. Nevertheless, I decided to cross my fingers and just hope for the best.

6:38 at 2 K, 8:17 at 2.5 K, 10:40 at the mile (5:22). Still alive. 4 K in 13:19, still alive. 3 miles in 16:08 (5:28), no worries, I'll blame it on the wind. 16:43 at the 5 K, 21:34 at 4 miles (5:26), seems like the wind picked up. Steve and I are still trading leads somewhat informally. Whoever is feeling the pace is getting too slow moves up front.

25:08 at the turnaround. 8 seconds off pace, but no worries, we'll get tail wind on the way back, and when we start racing each other hard with a couple of miles to go, we'll catch up. Or so I thought until we had completed the turnaround. What I thought was a headwind on the way out was actually a friendly cross-wind. I guess sometimes we mistake friends for enemies when they ruffle our feathers. So the turnaround made it an unfriendly cross wind.

27:01 at 5 miles (5:27), I move up and press the pace in hopes of getting back up to 5:20 or at least close, but all we could manage was 5:37 on the next mile with 32:38 split at 6. That's bad, the 5:30 guy is starting to close on us. I try to take it in stride.

32:38 at 6 miles (5:32). The good news is that we sped up. The bad news is that the 5:30 guy is closing, and is threatening to come close enough to make me not PR (50:57). And also I am literally falling asleep. Where is the pillow? I'd like to take a nap. The lips feel numb, the quads feel numb as well. Typical night or early morning relay leg feeling. I suppose good practice and confidence builder as well for next week. 33:48 at the 10 K. Last 5 K in 17:05, however, last 2.5 in 8:40, not good at all. If things go like that, the PR might not happen.

38:10 at 7 miles (5:32). We are perpetually stuck at that pace. Trying to pick it up, but not much is happening.

40:41 at 12 K. 10:20 for the last 3 K would not be good enough for a PR. The torch under my fanny is getting lit up. I am feeling good, perhaps even too good, but there seems to be nothing I can do about it. Just cannot get out of the rut. Unfortunately, Steve is the same way. I am starting to wish he would put the hammer down and try to lose me, but he is not feeling up to it either. 12.5 K in 42:24.

43:42 at 8 miles. Another 5:32! Third in a row. We are having a love affair with that pace, and we are in a serious need of repentance, or there might be no PR for me today. 45:27 with a mile to go, a sub-5:30 is good enough for a PR. Fortunately, Steve starts smelling the barn and picking up the pace.

The last mile had quarter marks, thanks to the SLC Track Club. A quarter in 1:21, wow that hurt good enough for 1:19, followed by 1:22. sub-2:47 for the last half gives a PR. Steve picks up the pace even more. I breathe a sign of relief. The PR is happening. We pass mile 9, and now the race is for real. Steve picks it up, I respond, warm into the pace, then try to pass him, he speeds up, I tuck behind him. 49:42 with 0.214 to go. With about 0.1 to go I move out again and start gradually opening the throttle with the intent to reach the max RPMs and hold it to the finish. It is scary, but I know that the momentum will carry me through even if the anaerobic bear attacks me. Steve responds, I keep revving it up and manage to pull away. 50:43.0 for me, 50:43.9 for Steve. Last mile in 5:16, and a 14 second PR for a non-aided 15 K.

Aleksander Thomas won with 48:37 and BJ was second with 48:49. Amazing times for them with the conditions, I was expecting to see them somewhere in the 49:30 - 49:50 range with the wind. But they must have gotten in better shape.

Ran a long cool down to make to the 20 miles for total. Paced Brent in the middle. He had a good kick - 1:36 on the last quarter. Towards the end, Steve started to push the pace, and we ran the last quarter in 1:29. With about 3 miles to go I felt hungry as a lion, and ate accordingly when we got back to Saltair.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:34.


Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From James on Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 19:57:57

Way to kick it again. You are running well, it showed with your PR today.

From James W on Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 20:15:04

Congrats on the PR, Sasha. I always love to read your race reports - they are so detailed and full of information. Looking forward to seeing your family this next Thursday.

From Jody on Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 20:22:48

Great job today!! Great description of the race. I had the exact same thought about the wind. Good Luck at Del Sol.

From Brent on Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 00:10:51

Sasha, tough race, 100 commando points for the PR and 100 for 3rd place, 100 for pacing me in, thanks. Good luck next weekend, kick some FRB butt.

Stay Kool, b of bs rools out

From Lybi on Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 00:42:22

I think this is my favorite Sasha race report ever. Very colorful & great metaphors/similies. Lots of people who grew up speaking English have not mastered the language like this. Fun stuff.

And in terms of the running--all I have to say is that when you can drag a PR out of sleep deprived legs like this, something good is definitely coming your way. Congrats on the PR! That wall is coming down!

From Mike B on Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 07:29:51

As always, a nice read! So much detail...

"Kenyan warmup pace"???

From josse on Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:13:14

That about sums up how I felt when I started racing, but you got closer to your goal time than I did. Thanks for the great "Kenyan warmup" it was great for me. I thought you guys would wrm up alot faster.

From Cal on Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 10:47:16

Sasha, contratulations on a great race and a PR. I enjoyed your write-up immensely.

From Tom on Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 11:04:06

Nice job Sasha getting the PR despite not feeling the greatest. Great race report as usual, lots to be learned by reading all the FRB folks race reports.

From JeffC on Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 11:39:19

I wish I could run and sleep at the same time. Maybe that's what I should do to finally reach my sub 20 5K. Nice race Sasha, you are really on a roll.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Got good sleep. Went to church. Visited a family I home teach. Took a nap.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.600.000.000.0020.60

A.M. 4 with Ted and Hyrum in 34:39, another 2 with Ted in 16:02, then 10.1 by myself in 1:06:09. It was raining, and the rain was cold, and I was alone, so I picked up the pace to get warm, and then just could not slow down. Ran into Matt with 1.5 to go, and ran with him for a mile as well. Total time for 16.1 was 1:56:50. Hyrum did better than I thought he would after a break of over a year. Ted was alive as well, that is a good sign.

P.M 2 with Benjamin in 15:55, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:53, 1 with Julia in 11:13.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.700.000.500.0020.20

A.M. Started the run with Ted and Josse. Had 2 VPB stops, that gave me some pace at threshold catching up. Timed 700 meters of it - 2:23, almost 5:20 pace. Started out with a 1:03 300, and then eased into 5:20 pace for the remainder. Was happy to see that 5:20 pace came to the surface fairly quickly and painlessly at 6:00 AM in the dark on a somewhat slippery surface. Was originally planning on doing strides, but figured this was good enough - all strides combined into one segment. The pace eventually progressed to a bit faster than 8:00. Dropped Ted off at 6, Josse at 10. Eventually eased into sub-7:00 pace, which soon became 6:40. Then after another VPB the rhythm was broken and 6:50 was what felt natural. Ended up with 1:51:46 for 15 miles. Looking forward to Del Sol. No wrong turns this time, no more people getting sick or injured. Everybody wash your hands, stay away from sick people as much as you can, sleep well, and do not do anything stupid. I hope I can follow my own advice.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:45, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:46, 1 with Julia in 10:38.

Night Sleep Time: 0.12Nap Time: 0.02Total Sleep Time: 0.15
Comments
From Clay on Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 20:34:29

Good luck Sasha I hope you guys do well. Enjoy the warm weather down there too, its suppose to be in the 80's!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. 10.1 with newly married Jeff. Started out slow, took 3.5 miles to catch the 8:00 guy. Then woke up and went slightly sub-6:40 pace in the last 4 miles, last 0.5 in 3:02. Total time was 1:12:38. Jeff's car decided to give him a wedding present. Refused to go even after a jump start, so it is sitting in front of our house right now waiting to be taken to Computune.

P.M. Took Zhu to Jeff's house so he and his wife would have a car at least while we are gone. Brought Benjamin, Jacob, and the stroller with me. Ran 2.03 with Benjamin running, and Jacob in the stroller in 15:47. Then put Benjamin on a bike, and ran 5 miles in 37:10 pushing Jacob in the stroller with Benjamin on a bike. Then 1.5 with Jenny, no stroller, in 12:53, 0.5 alone in 3:29, and 1 with Julia in 10:29.

Night Sleep Time: 0.11Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.11
Comments
From James W on Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 22:54:25

Sasha,

What time are you guys planning on arriving at our house tomorrow? I have Webelos scouts from 6-7, and Lybi has missionary correlation from 6:30-7, so we want to make sure that we are home when you get here. Send me an email or give me a call on my cell phone.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 23:30:14

We are planning on leaving at 5:30 AM, which means we will leave around 6. If everything goes well, we should get to your house a little bit before 6. We will give you updates on our ETA as we go.

From josse on Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 11:16:49

Are you going to be home for tues. run?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.030.000.500.0010.53

Traveling to Mesa for the Del Sol relay. 1 mile with Benjamin and Jenny in  Kingman, AZ. Then 0.5 with Jenny in 4:21, followed by 1 mile with James W and Benjamin in 7:55. Then 7.03 with James with two 0.25 pickups at 5:10 pace. Felt good and ready to go.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Race: Del Sol Relay (181.7 Miles) 17:04:37, Place overall: 1
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.500.007.400.0016.90

A.M. Easy 6 with James W, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny, additional 0.5 with Benjamin, and 1 mile with Julia.

P.M. Brief report, more details when I have time. Ran Leg 10 of Del Sol (7.4) in 42:20, average pace technically 5:43, but with adventures.

Now details. Our team was as follows in leg order: Van 1 - Dave Holt, Logan Fielding, Nick McCombs, Clyde Behunin, and James Barnes with Steve Hooper driving. Van 2 - Adam Wende, Ted Leblow, Kory Wheatley, myself, Jeff Shadley, and Steve Ashbaker (the Air Darkhorse).

Google was supposedly the team to beat, but after checking their performance history in other relays, I knew that they would not be breaking 6:00 average by much if at all. Barring an exceptionally catastrophic event, our team should not have had a problem outperforming this. I was more concerned about some Arizona running store bringing current and post-collegiate runners together. We did, however, consider putting http://google.com/search?q=fast+running+blog on our van to taunt our competition, but it was a last minute thought and we lacked the materials. Apparently, according to one of our team members who talked with Google, they indeed had done the above search and knew they were in trouble.

I considered beating Google by a lot one of the main reasons for coming to the race. Why? There was a mission to accomplish. I want to see the US companies to start following the pattern of the Japanese corporations. I want to see strong corporate teams where winning a race is a matter of importance to a corporation enough to actually do something about nurturing the runners. From what I've observed about Google, of all the US companies they appear to be one of the most open to the idea of promoting the company by winning a race. Most corporations spend millions on maintaining their public image but are perfectly content to send a team that will not break 8:00 average pace. Google is different. They care. At least some people inside the company do. I wanted them to seriously ask this question - How in the world are these guys from Utah and Idaho manage to beat us so bad? What do we need to do to beat them next time?

However, beating Google would not have quite done the job had we not won the race outright. After the first leg, we saw that this would not be easy. Although we had no problem separating ourselves from Google as I expected, The Running Shop team from Tuscan was strong. Their runner finished together with Dave. Logan opened a 1:30 gap on his leg, then Nick increased it to 3:42, and Clyde to 4:19. Walter increased it further to 4:27, and then James to over 5 minutes in spite of being sick.

Van 2 took over. Adam ran strong ahead of his projection, Ted and Kory ran strong as well. We were not timing the gap any more as we could not afford to wait. My leg was interesting. I was projected to run 5:28 pace for 7.4 miles on rollers with a net elevation gain which I felt was a bit overoptimistic for a number of reasons. Nevertheless I should have been close. The leg started with 1.5 miles of 2% grade uphill and a steady headwind. I had forgotten by GPS at James and Lybi's house and borrowed one from Adam. Unfortunately, it did not start right away when I pressed the button. However, about a quarter into my leg I got it started for real. I was running a steady 5:50 pace in the initial section. Then I hit a 1:18 quarter on a short downhill, and settled into 1:22 - 1:24 quarters once there was no headwind. Had a hard time hitting my true threshold in the dark and at this late hour (11 pm). Had an adventure with about a mile to go. My flashlight fell off. It took me a few seconds to realize it was gone. I figured losing a few seconds by going back to get the light would be better than losing the light and possibly getting our team DQ'ed on top of it for running without the light. So I went back and got it. I do not know exactly how much I've lost on it, Adam probably could figure it out since it is on his GPS. My overall time was 42:20, 5:43 average assuming the leg was indeed 7.4. I do remember that the GPS had an auto-pause, and afterwards was showing 5:36 pace average for the timed portion of my run (7.15). So the leg could have been a bit longer than 7.4 as well. I ended up being 1:42 slower than the projection, and Jason from the Running Shop gained 2:35 on me.

To add injury to insult, once I got in the van I realized that my cell phone was gone, and we could not possibly go back to get it. Fortunately, I knew that most likely it went down at the same place as the flash light, and we could figure out exactly where later from the GPS.

Jeff and Steve ran very strong on their legs and more than made up for my adventures. We handed off to Van 1 with 7:48 gap on the Running Shop.

.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Jason on Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 23:47:07

Hi Sasha,

I was a member of the Running Shop Team at Ragnar and happened to run the same legs as you. I just wanted to say congratulations on the win and good work!!

For my leg 10, I ran 39:45 which was, by far, my hardest effort of the day. Then, I ran 17:40 for leg 22 and 33:15ish (approx..had to stop at a traffic light) for leg 34.

I'm definitely glad there was at least some sense of competition and I hope we see you guys out in AZ next year.

Cheers.

From jtshad on Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 10:59:11

Great running with you Sasha and thanks for all you have done getting the Racing Team together!

From wheakory on Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 14:45:37

Sasha you are a true competitor and it was great running with you. Will have to work on are leg exchanges again if it happens for me and you to follow in order in the future.

Thanks for allowing me to run on your team.

From Superfly on Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 15:38:01

Good job this weekend Sasha. Hopefully your family had a safe trip back home. Did you ever find your phone?

From Jon on Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 16:00:36

I find it interesting that you use the relay to beat other teams in hopes of motivating companies to sponsor runners...

From Maria on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 07:58:50

Another great victory by FRB! You really had an amazing team this year. Did you see this: http://championseverywhere.blogspot.com/2008/03/sashas-revenge.html

Not sure where "revenge" comes from. Did they beat you in last year's relay?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
4.000.009.400.0013.40

A.M. Brief report, details when I have time. Leg 22 of Del Sol in 17:30, GPS measured at 3.37, 5:11.57 avg. pace. Then later leg 34 (GPS measured 6.17) in 33:58, 5:30.31 avg, severe nervous system fatigue in the last 3 miles - no surprise, though, since I got zero sleep and the leg was at 9:45 AM. Our team won by almost 42 minutes though, with the average pace of 5:38.34, which would have been good enough to make top 5 in Hood to Coast.

Now more details. Van 1 ran very well, featuring Logan's 4:55 average over 7 downhill miles which alone increased the gap by 4 minutes. Adam received the baton about 17:30 ahead of the Running Shop and attacked his leg with the typical Adam fury. Ted did very well on his leg, and handed to Kory, who ran ahead of schedule as well. Then it was my turn.

I was angry for two reasons. I was upset about the mishaps on my first leg and wanted to redeem myself. And I knew that the only way I could run half way decent at 4:45 AM after not sleeping all night would be by getting productively angry. I have a hard time with that. I have no problem getting emotionally upset, but I do have a difficulty becoming upset in a way that gives me a sustained increase in muscular power output. So I tried to get as mad I as I could about what happened earlier in hopes of channeling the energy into running performance, and it did work to an extent. I ran 4:50 pace on the downhill portion (about 3%), and then once it flattened out I slowed down to around 5:20. 17:30 for the leg, gapped Jason by 10 seconds, was happy with the effort.

Jeff ran strong on his leg, then handed off to Steve. Steve was running angry as well, and beat his predicted pace. We increased the gap to 21:56 before handing off to Van 2.

By that time we had passed most of the teams that started earlier which I was happy about for two reasons. No traffic jam to worry about near Saguaro Lake, and the pristinely clean port-a-potties up ahead.

Van 2 was mostly on schedule, although the fatigue began to take its toll on some runners, and they were a minute or two off on their legs, but I was expecting that. Paul's spreadsheet does not account for the sleep deprivation fatigue, so you should always add 10-20 seconds a mile on the third set of legs. Nick and Logan did not skip a beat though, and were right on schedule. I suppose some runners handle the relay sleep situation better than others, we need to make a note of that and give them longer legs at the end in the future.

Adam was wound up for his third leg. He ran great up the hill and was still ahead of schedule on the Ragnar of Del Sol in spite of being on the third leg. We asked Van 2 to stay around to time the gap, and I became very concerned when I saw them drive by 24 minutes into Adam's leg. Then I realized that due to the dynamics of the race, it was more likely that they just got tired of waiting and took off.

Ted got a decent time on his leg, then Kory survived his. He was struggling with neural fatigue, but still ran decent, and handed off to me. My leg was a steady 1% grade downhill, 6.1 miles of it. The temperatures got up to over 70 F, but that was not a big problem. The heat did not bother me very much. I ran the first mile in 5:13, followed by 5:18. A bit slower than the projected 5:11 pace, but still acceptable. My teammates sang me BINGO, controlled the lights at the intersections, and handed me water. Sarah and Lybi came to cheer as well with all of the kids.

The real trouble started on the third mile. The neural fatigue was reaching the levels above my ability to fight it. I ran a 5:32, followed by 5:38, and a 5:44. What a joke! This is on a downhill at near sea-level altitude. This reminded me of the important role that the nervous system plays at speeds 5:20 or faster. If it gives out, it does not matter how fit you are, you are going to be stuck around 5:40 pace. I mustered all of my strength and managed a 5:34 mile, plus a semblance of a kick for the remaining 0.17 to finish in 33:58, 46 seconds slower than Jason even though he had lost some time at a light. I am sure glad my teammates brought the baton far ahead enough to where this did not really matter.

Jeff ran very well, and even had a little experience with a couple of dogs, then handed off to Steve. We did our best to control the lights and direct Steve to make sure he did not get lost, as his leg had a lot of turns, and was not properly marked in some places. At the end we all jumped out of the van and finished with Steve. In spite of our big lead he pressed hard to the very end and made all of us work to keep up. 17:04:37 at the finish, a win by 41:58 over the Running Shop, and 1:45:24 over Google.

Immediately afterwards we all went to James and Lybi's house for lunch. We downloaded my route of leg 10 from Adam's GPS, researched it, identified the location where my cell phone was dropped, entered the coordinates into my GPS, got directions to it from Google maps (it was a 61 mile drive one way), and I went geo-caching. I had never geo-cached before like this - a night with no sleep, three legs of a relay in the meantime, no nap, and straight down to business to find something I actually needed very much as opposed to something useless in regular geo-caching. The treasure hunt was successful. My Garmin led me right to my cell phone. Wonders of technology!

P.M. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny, and 0.5 more with Jeff Shadley and Benjamin. Went to the awards ceremony. It was a bit of a bummer. The results got messed up, and we got nothing more than a set batons, while Google got a treadmill for winning the corporate division. Our 5:38 per mile average and an outright win by quite a margin unfortunately did not get a fair amount of attention in the announcements. At least we got some publicity from passing a multitude of teams and actively recruiting people for the blog at every opportunity. Google got to see the power of the Fast Running Blog in action. And I wonder what we would do with the treadmill if there was one for us anyway.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 1.50
Comments
From Paul Petersen on Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:36:23

Traditionally relays all have terrible prizes. They certainly are not "money" races, but are designed more for recreational runners and "just having fun." I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

If you had won a treadmill? Easy - sell it and put it in the "future relay expense fund". That would be one way to get a "free" trip out to Hood to Coast.

From JeffC on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 11:41:18

Thanks for the great report Sasha. I enjoyed all the details and hunt for the cell phone. The details gave me some insight on what to exptect in an upcoming relay (Wasatch Back) for myself and a group of guys in my Stake from Vegas. Great job by the whole group and again, great report!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Sarah and I and the kids stayed overnight with James and Lybi. Went to church with them. Their ward has been promoting fitness goals, one of them being family weight loss. I suggested it would not be a good idea for us.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.500.000.000.0010.50

Travel home from Mesa. Left early and got in at 5pm, so I had time for a run. Decided to keep it short since I really did not have that much time to start with, and was still fatigued from the race and the travel. 2 with Benjamin in 16:49, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:59, 1 with Julia in 9:41, and then 6 more. Kept running into couples. First it was Jeff (different new Jeff) and Ann. They denied that they were on a date, although it did look like it. Turned out Jeff had served a mission in the Ukraine, so we chatted in Russian some. Then it was time for them to turn around, but shortly thereafter I ran into Jeff McClellan and his wife Kimia. She was following him on a bike. So we all went together from there.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Mike on Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 16:20:07

Sasha, great meeting you and the rest of your team at Ragnar. You all did great. Thanks for the advice and the free blog! We will be using it!

By the way... Team DM ended up First in Public Service, there was some errors in the timing set up!!

From James on Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 00:21:10

Well, four relays together and we finally got a win under our belts, and what a great win it was!

Did you ever find that phone?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.900.000.500.0020.40

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff and Josse in 1:16:30. Did 0.5 of tempo pickups after a VPB at 5:20 pace.

P.M. 5.75 with Julia running one mile in 10:05, then riding in the stroller the rest of the way. We went to Reams Family Foods to get her a present for running under 10:00 in a training run on her own initiative. Then 1.5 with Jenny in 12:59, 1.05 by myself in 7:21, and 2 with Benjamin in 15:47.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.25
Comments
From MichelleL on Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 18:35:10

Hey Sasha,

I am going to be running in Provo/Orem tomorrow at about 10am. I have a notion that your job is flexible and you might be able to do a second run in the late morning or sleep in and run later. Could you scare up another flexible runner? Just a thought.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 18:52:56

Michelle - sorry this did not work out. We are running tomorrow at 6:30 AM, and at some undefined time Saturday morning as well. Let me know when you are going to be in Provo next time. Also, our Benjamin has been wondering when he could play with yours.

From MichelleL on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 19:19:03

can you let me know as soon as you know about Saturday? I think I may come up. 6am or 6:30 meet time would work best for me. Hopefully my lungs will cooperate. They will need to so I can keep up.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 15:22:10

It is going to be 6:30.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.400.000.750.0020.15

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff in 1:09:09 at 5:10 AM. Started slow as usual, but quickly warmed into a good pace. Did a tempo pickup on the last quarter - 1:22.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:39, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:28, she closed with a 7:55 mile, 2 with Benjamin in 15:51, and then another 5.55 in 42:14 with 0.5 worth of tempo pickups.

I have finally finished my Del Sol report.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From Walter on Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 22:17:19

When we gonna hear about the phone story!? I still cant believe you went back and found that! You seaze to amaze me my friend! I hope you cleaned it off! Jk have a good night see ya

From James on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 15:12:22

That is amazing that you found your phone! I enjoyed the rest of your race report. I think I will write a book about how to run and not run a relay someday when all is said and done. I have plenty of stories to include.

From Jon on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 16:21:44

Sasha- I'm going to be in Provo Fri/Sat. I am planning on a long run (~18-19 miles at ~7:00-7:15 pace) Saturday morning. Are you are anyone else running at that time that would allow me to tag along? I would need to know when/where to meet.

From Jon on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 16:23:17

typo- should be "you OR anyone else..."

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 19:03:42

Jon - that would be great. The plan is to go at 6:30 AM from my house at 339 N 1120 W in Provo. Call 801-788-4608 if you get lost, etc. Starting time can be adjusted since at this point you are the only person coming.

From MichelleL on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 18:51:13

I am coming, though it depends on the day whether I can keep that pace (and for how long - kind of in sketchy shape right now), so I may end up solo, but if I can do that pace it would make for a great run.

From adam on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 19:33:35

sasha, I'll be there tomorrow as well.

From Jon on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 20:12:02

I'll be there at 6:30.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.050.000.800.3020.15

A.M. Really did not want to get out of bed this morning. It was so comfortable. Ran 15.1 in 1:43:31. First 10.1 with Jeff. Adam joined us for the first 3.5. Jeff and I had a need for VPB, and picked up the pace to get to a good spot before the need would strike in a crippling manner. We ran 600 in 2:01 (5:23 pace). Then another 700 in 2:16 (5:10 pace) to catch up. We got a bit carried away on this one. Adam told us we sounded like a herd of buffalo when we came up from behind. Ran into Matt again with about 1.5 to go.

P.M. Took a nap. Had a dream about all of the girls on the blog running a relay race along the Black Sea.  Jenny was running carrying Jacob instead of the baton for some reason. Our team van was actually a bus that looked like this:

bonus challenge - identify the model. The bus was old and had a hard time going uphill. A leg was coming up that climbed 9%. I was getting concerned that the bus would not make it. Then I woke up. It took me a while to realize I did not need to worry about the bus making up the hill.

Ran 2 miles with Benjamin in 16:32. He started out slow, and gradually increased the pace. At 1.5 mark after hearing his split he correctly stated that he was 2 seconds behind the 8:30 guy and, then said, direct quote: "At this rate of aggression I will have him completely destroyed by the finish!", which he proceeded to do.

Jenny and Julia ran their usual distances with Sarah. I ran another 3.05 in 22:22, found Provo High team on the trail, ran with them a bit, did a couple of pickups.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 9.25
Comments
From Cal on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 13:16:31

If I had to guess, I would say it's a LAZ-697M.

From steve ashbaker on Fri, Mar 07, 2008 at 19:58:12

Have you been taking melatonin too?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.570.250.400.0020.22

A.M. 15.03 in 1:48:59. Jeff slept in, so I ran to his house (1.35), then 9 more with him. Counted the stride rate at 6:50 pace. It was 172-174. Decided to test it at a faster pace. Ran a quarter in 1:26, stride rate was 184. Ran into Tyler. he was doing a short tempo. Ran the last 0.4 with him, timed 600 of it, it was 1:59. Tried to count the stride rate, but at 5:20 pace it was too tedious. Then ran into Matt. He joined us. We dropped off Jeff, then dropped off Tyler, and then Matt and I went separate ways with 0.46 to go (for me).

P.M. Did a kids relay of sorts from Canyon Glen Park to a little bit past Will's on 800 S in Orem. First, 1.42 with Julia in 14:12, then 1.74 with Jenny in 15:01, and 2.02 with Benjamin in 15:49. We did not make the kids stay up all night and then do it again two more times, though.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 9.25
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
24.600.000.500.0025.10

A.M. 20.1 in 2:30:49. The run started with Adam, Michelle, Jon Allen, Hyrum, and Tyler. Dropped Hyrum off after 2 miles. Dropped Tyler and Adam after 12. Michelle and Jon ran the entire way. Did 2 post-VPB tempo pickups, first was 0.5 in 2:37 (1:21 - 1:16) about 8 miles into the run, and the second was about 17 miles into the run, also 0.5 in 2:37 (1:19 - 1:18). Turnover was 178 at 8:15 pace, 172 at 7:30 pace, and 194 at 5:20 pace. The tempo pickups felt good, very sustainable, although I was breathing hard. It has been probably at least 6 years since I felt I could not go any faster because I was breathing too hard. It is usually something subtle, no major pain, muscles feel fine, breathing feels fine some kind of invisible wall stops me. Some days it is further out than others. I actually like it when I am able to breathe hard and still feel the pace is sustainable.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:32, then 3 alone in 22:25. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Jon on Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 15:42:47

Thanks for letting me tag along with you guys today. It's a nice trail you have to run on there.

From wheakory on Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 17:17:33

Maybe the breathing hard could be a fatigue

factor. Great pick-ups... that's what I need to starting doing more.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Mar 08, 2008 at 17:46:03

Kory - for me breathing hard is a sign of running well. Whenever I am forced to slow down by fatigue, I actually stop breathing hard.

From Bryce on Sun, Mar 09, 2008 at 18:46:50

Hey! I'm new here on your blog site and my sister (Christi AKA Shuffling Sista) told me you know a great website to get raw nuts, but she couldn't remember it. Could you post it for me please?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:26:54

Bryce - the net site is http://www.azurestandard.com/

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Typical Sunday. Got good sleep at night, went to church, took a nap later in the afternoon.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.701.000.000.5020.20

A.M. 15 miles in 1:47:50. First 2 with Ted and Hyrum, then 5 more with Ted, and the remaining 8 by myself. Had a fluke happen after dropping off Ted. The nervous system did something weird and I ended up with a 5:59 mile without actually trying to run in that range. The breathing and the muscle strain were within the easy pace range, so I did not feel anything. I figured I could not have become a 2:05 marathoner overnight, so there was no way that 6:00 pace would be a true easy especially at altitude. And as I paid closer attention to the body signals I could feel that the nervous system was working in the non-easy range. So I eased off consciously although without hitting the breaks and dragging on purpose, but was still in the wrong range - next two miles were 6:14 and 6:11. So I decided to reboot myself by doing strides. Did 8x100 in 17-18 seconds. That calmed me down and I was able to get back into the true easy pace for the rest of the run.

However, this experience in combination with the pace fluctuations in Del Sol made me wonder if my muscles, and heart are already fit to run much faster, but the brain/nerves are lagging behind.

P.M. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:20, 2 with Benjamin in 16:45, 0.7 alone in 4:33, 1 with Julia in 10:20.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Lybi on Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 15:25:48

Every time you mention your neural capacity, I look at your sleep. Good sleep last night? 9.5 is not too shabby.

From Jon on Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 15:41:18

Or, somedays, you just feel better and can run faster than others...

It's a good workout, either way, and can be a confidence booster.

From wheakory on Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 16:14:27

Sasha, I've experienced days like that also, and I always assumed it was the sleep the night before and my nutrition from the previous that accounted for the odd behavior.

I like Jon's answer (somedays you fell invincible and others like a slug).

From wheakory on Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 16:15:53

Sasha so your aware it only shows you ran 5 miles today, and I know for you that will never be true. Nice Job again.

From James W on Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 09:03:51

Interesting observation. If your idea holds true, then it would be worth further investigating how to improve neural drive and, to the same extent, lessen neural fatigue during a race, when you know that your heart and muscles can handle the pace.

From JeffC on Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 10:20:43

Sasha, could you teach me how to reboot my legs sometime? :)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.751.250.000.0020.00

A.M. 15 miles in 1:48:39. Started with Ted, Jeff, Josse, and Adam. Adam turned around after a mile, dropped Ted off at 6, dropped Jeff and Josse at 10. Picked up the pace a bit on the last 5, ran it in 32:52. Also, did 1.25 worth of catching up after bathroom stops at around 5:40 - 5:50 pace.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:52, then 3 more in 21:35. Pushed Jacob in the single stroller for the entire run. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Lybi on Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 00:37:09

How am I ever going to learn Russian if you keep slacking on your blogging, buddy? One whole day missed? Intolerable. JK Hope all is well in Pachevland.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.603.500.000.0020.10

A.M. Ted was not feeling good, did not make it. Jeff slept in. So I ran alone at 5:15 AM. Started out a bit quicker than normal - 7:21 in the first mile, after that a slight sub-6:40. Ran into Jeff at around 5.5 mark, and we ran together from there. 1:06:59 for 10.1.

P.M. Sarah went to Wal-Mart and got me a pair of crocs for $5. I wanted to try them as a proof-of-concept for near barefoot running. At the very worst, I figured, they would make nice slippers for the summer. Did my entire evening run in crocs. First a mile with Julia in 10:47. Then 1.5 with Jenny in 13:45. Her ankle was hurting, so she did not have to catch the 9:00 girl today. Then 2 with Benjamin in 15:26. Then 5.5 more by myself. I was pressed for time, and needed to keep around 7:00 average to avoid being late. Started with a first quarter in 1:45, followed by 1:41. Then hit the mile in 6:38. Figured I'd just stay ahead of the 6:40 guy. Then I noticed that my split for the next 0.5 was 3:07. I recalculated it to be sure, it was right. The next one was 3:02. I figured, forget it, this is my second run, and I have only 3.5 left, and then a night of sleep, I am not going to hold back. If I feel like running 6:00 pace, I'll just go for it. After that it was unreal. I started running 5:40 pace without actually trying to run a tempo. The rhythm and the harmony of movement were so appealing that I did not notice the effort. The form felt great. I went by a couple of guys in their 40s going around 8:00 - 8:30 that looked like they were experienced runners. This must have been quite a sight for them - a runner in crocs passing them at 5:40 pace, I must have looked like a beach bum running away from a tidal wave. I slowed down to 5:50 under the bridges, and then was back up to 5:40 pace. Ended up catching the 6:00 guy for the whole run with 32:52 for 5.5. Last 3 miles in 17:07, 5:42.3 average.

Checked for side efforts from crocs afterwards, there were none so far. Noticed that the shin muscles were working a lot better, and I felt like was getting more out of them than in regular shoes. It was also easier to take my foot off the ground, there did not seem to be as much of my usual lingering.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From cgbooth23 on Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:05:04

Sasha,

What made you think of running in Crocs? I did a 5 mile run a couple weeks ago in a similar sandle called Waldies, I too felt great in them! just wonderig what motivated you to try them out! good pace by the way!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:26:54

I noticed that my kids run very well in Crocs. I also have known for a while that I do have a problem with an excessive ground contact time, but do not have a problem wearing shoes with no cushioning.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.005.000.000.0020.00

A.M. Finally I got around to doing a scheduled speed workout. It did help that Jeff wanted to do a tempo. I decided I was going to become a boltun, which is the masculine form of boltushka. Both words mean a talkative person in Russian. For me, being a boltun means I am not going to schedule any speed work unless somebody is doing it with me, and even then, go his pace even if he is slower. The rationale behind it is that even though my muscles and cardio can handle pushing the pace every other day fine, my nervous system subtly becomes worn out. The lack of muscular fatigue does not help, either, because it tricks me into thinking I am good to go for another workout too soon. With a partner, the nervous system will get taxed less. If he is slower, I can move up front and pull him and still be OK. If he is faster, I can draft - the muscles will work harder, but the brain will not. If he is an equal match, then we'll trade quarters, and the brain will be working half the time.

After yesterday's experience I was confident the crocs were good enough for a 15 mile run. Jeff's first question when he saw them was if they stay on your feet. They actually do quite well. We warmed up a few miles, then started the Provo River 5 Mile Tempo. The plan was to run side by side for about 0.5, then I would move up front and pull Jeff at whatever pace he thought was right the rest of the way. Jeff is still not quite in his top shape after his injury, normally we just trade quarters. So we did the first two quarters in 1:24. After that I accelerated to move up, but forgot to ease off once I was there. So the next quarter was 1:20. Then I eased off to 1:24, 5:32 for the mile. Jeff seemed to be doing OK, so I ran the next mile in 5:30 at a steady pace hoping that maybe we could beat the 5:30 guy. But then Jeff started struggling and we backed off some. 13:51 at the turnaround, we lost quite a bit hitting both quarters before and after in 1:26. Doing a 180 in the dark over by that gate is a bit tricky.

16:40 at 3 miles. 22:17 at 4. Then Jeff struggled on the micro-hill - quarters of 1:27 and 1:26, then I told him we needed to run sub-5:40 to break 28:00, so he sped up a bit, and we closed with 1:24 and 1:23 to finish the 5 miles in 27:57.

Ran back with Jeff to his house, then the additional distance to make the total of 15.

More notes on the crocks - the pluses are that the form feels great, the foot comes off the ground quickly, the fatigue is less noticeable, the foot lands on the toe, and the shin muscles are working very well, better than in any other shoe I have ever worn. The minuses are that my big toes do not like the feeling of rubber pressing against them, The side of my foot hits the side attachment clip of the back strap on the sharp turns at fast speeds, and the extra rotation of my right foot causes it to rub against the top edge of the shoe which resulted in a minor blister. Plus their durability is not that great. After only 25 miles I am already seeing wear marks in the toe area. No wear marks on the heel, a very good sign. So far, I am encouraged to try Vibram Five Fingers, which should have all of the advantages of crocs but would hopefully address the disadvantages. Plus, being able to use the toes more freely should help.

P.M. Crocs again. 1 with Julia in 10:27, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:10. She said: "There is no way I can catch the 9:00 girl" as she closed 10 seconds on her in a quarter. She repeated that half-way through the next quarter in which she closed the remaining 10, and added another 3 seconds on top of it. Afterwards, she was finally convinced that the 9:00 girl was not that hard to beat, and put another 17 seconds on her in the next quarter closing in 1:58. Sometimes our perception of reality is not correct.

Another 2 with Benjamin in 17:39. He is racing on Saturday, and he said before the run that he did not want to run faster than 8:50 pace. He ended up being right on, which took a lot of self-restraint. Added another 0.5 by myself.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 13:15:04

Sasha, wearing the crocs is this an experiment your trying. It would seem like almost wearing race flats without too much heal support.

From Chad on Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 17:42:41

I am amazed that you can run in crocs. The Vibram Five Fingers (Sprint model) look interesting. I would like to try them on grass, maybe on the track.

From Steve Hooper on Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 18:22:04

Sasha- way to go with the 15 in your Crocs! I'm very impressed. I think your ligaments and tendons are already fairly strong due to the unusual amount of miles you tend to put your shoes through.

I would bet your Crocs are actually "softer" than you normal trainers? Am I right?

The five fingers don't have the cushion that the Crocs have - However, the Vibram sole will do a better job at protecting your foot against glass.

From thisgirlcanrun on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 13:05:25

Crocs? I have 3 pairs cause they are so comfy. I think I will try this :)

From Maria on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 11:55:06

I agree with Steve - crocs are very spongy, I think they have good amount of cushioning. But Vibram shoes look like they don't have any cushion at all, or very minimal. It would be interesting to see your results with them!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.300.000.000.0020.30

A.M. 15.1 in 1:46:50 in Crocs. 11.1 of it with Jeff. Ran 0.9 via a short cut to his house, then with him, then dropped him off and ran 3 more. I think I have the blistering issue resolved, possibly the Crocs stretched out. My lower calves felt a bit fatigued, though, so I think I'll give them a break tomorrow and run in my racing flats instead. Plus it would really be bad to end up with a broken Croc 8 miles away from the house while Benjamin needs to get to his race soon.

The Crocs are still in good shape, the wear marks on the front did not get bigger, and no wear marks on the heel appeared. You can still read "Made in China" on the bottom of the sole, as well as No Boundaries TM. No, this is not a joke, an April Fool's day joke, although it does sound like one, I really have been running in a pair of $5 Crocs, Jeff being a witness.

Here goes the shoe counter, let's have some fun:

Crocs - 45.1 miles.

I am curious if they can handle 500. Already 9% there.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:39, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:30, 0.7 with no running partners in 4:58, and 2 with Benjamin in 18:32. Pushed Jacob and Joseph in the stroller for all segments except Benjamin's. Wore Crocs.

 

Crocs - 50.3 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Cody on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 13:15:56

Maybe steve will start stocking Crocs at his running store....

From Paul Petersen on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 14:05:29

You can also try the airwalk "crocs" for comparison.

From josse on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 15:01:47

I just realized what you meant by crocks, your crazy! I want to see this on tues.

From Tom on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 15:42:00

I'm loving the Croc running experiment, perhaps the beginnings of the next running fad in the making.

From Superfly on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 17:27:58

Sasha would be a great marketing name for a guy trying to sell Croc's. I think you need to stick with this and maybe pick up a real sponsor. Someone needs to submit this to Croc's corporate offices.

From jamesm on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 18:32:33

What possible reason could there be to run in crocs?

From wheakory on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 18:40:56

I have a pair of crocs and they are comfortable. That's amazing Sasha the running your able to do in the crocs. Pretty cool experiment. Good luck reaching 500 miles.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 19:10:08

I wanted a quick way to check if there was any value to barefooted running. Doing strides on grass was not good enough - too short. Running on grass for a long time - well, I've done that before without much of a result, did not feel any different. I wanted to see what barefoot felt like on asphalt but I did not want to cut myself stepping on glass, etc.

And in the process I discovered a nice side effect. In reality, Crocs are at least not slower than regular racing flats, and might be even faster. But you look like complete beach bum in them. So if you need to freak out the competition, that would work great. The entire time they are thinking, this guy is a weirdo, he knows nothing about running, he should not be here with us, he should be jogging at the back of the pack. And you are still with them two thirds into the race. So they start thinking, I am having a bad race if this weirdo can keep up. And they just quit. And let you pull away.

From MarcieJ on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 19:14:09

I agree with Clyde, you could really become a spokesmodel for them, like Jared and Subway, the next thing is Sasha and Crocs! Imagine if you won a race wearing them, it could set you up for life:)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.1011.100.000.0025.20

A.M. Steve Ashbaker the Air Dark Horse rescued me today from having to run 20 miles alone. Decided to take a break from Crocs today, and wore racing flats.

I originally wanted to run to Bridal Veil and back, but it was cold enough already without the wind, so we agreed to do our 10.1 mile course twice. We were having fun in the first half. First, we caught the 7:00 guy at mile 3. Then there was a branch on the road. Steve being the Air Dark Horse flew right over it. I being the Low Flying Spy Plane ran into it and took a spill. Only a few scratches, got up and went on, no problems.

Then it was time for Russian jokes. Here is the one for today. Gorbachev comes to the White House. Reagan seats him at the piano and says: "You can press any key except that red one". Gorbachev finally is overcome with curiosity and presses the forbidden red key. He gets splashed with ink, and plans a revenge.

Now Reagan comes to the Kremlin. Gorbachev invites him to the piano and admonishes him not to press the forbidden black key. He finally gets too curious and presses it anyway. Nothing happens. He does it again. Still no result. He goes to Gorbachev to complain: "This is borning! Back in America...", to which Gorbachev replies: "There is no America."

We were having so much fun that we forgot it was time to shift gears into the brisk easy  zone - around 6:20 - 6:40, but we did remember around mile 6, and made it to 10.1 in 1:08:58. After that it was time for the tempo portion. I told Steve that a quarter under 1:30 was good, and over 1:30 was bad, otherwise, anything was acceptable, and we got going. At first we were going 5:50 pace, then we even picked it up to 5:44, but then Steve was not feeling good for some reason, so we eased off to 5:50, and then to 5:55 - 6:00 pace. We ended up running the last 10.1 in 59:48, 5:55.25 average. Total time for 20.2 was 2:08:46, 6:22.48 average.

Immediately afterwards took Benjamin to the Rex Lee 5 K. Ted and I decided that since Ted was injured, it would be better for me to pace his son James, and for him to pace Benjamin. James ran a PR of 19:25, and Benjamin ran a PR as well, 22:02. I was impressed with his last 200 in 45 seconds. Ran some extra, ended up with 25.2 for the whole deal. James even gave me about a mile in my marathon pace zone.



Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Adam RW on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 06:53:00

I'm not sure if I laughed harder at the joke or at you being a low flying spy plane. Another great week of training for you...

From josse on Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:53:13

How about Sat. 3-22 for your uneventful 1/2?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

In spite of getting good night sleep I drifted off during the Sacrament meeting. Then Sarah handed me a kids book that talked about Lehi's dream.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.162.000.000.0020.16

A.M. Got a running book. This is a significant development for me. I am a firm believer that only few books are actually worth the money and the eye strain. The book is Brain Training for Runners by Matt Fitzgerald. I find that many of his ideas are very similar to what I discovered in my own running experience:

  • train six days a week, rest on the seventh
  • it is the brain that initiates the fatigue shutdown, not the muscle
  • excessive shoe cushioning overtime creates feet that are prone to injuries
  • sitting on your bum all day long messes up your running form
  • recovery is as important as stress - beds make champions, miles just help them get ready for bed
  • drink by thirst, do not overhydrate
  • low ground contact is a sign of an elite runner
  • you slow down not because you are out of fuel, but because your brain thinks you are about to run out of it. You speed up not because you got more fuel, but because your brain thinks it is coming.
  • Elite runner stride has a well-time sequence of power surges and relaxations. The primary active agent of the fatigue-induced slowdown is the disruptions of those timings.
  • emotional stress is bad for your running performance, keep it down
I really liked his idea of visualizing that you are running on a non-motorized treadmill.

Another Crocs day. Ran 2 mile warm-up in 17:37 with Hyrum. Then figured the Uneventful-Half would bring me to the target mileage for the run. Ran by feel, focused on running on a non-motorized treadmill. The pace naturally got faster. After a while I decided to see what would happen if I did not monitor it for a while. I hit the 2 mile mark in 12:41 when I decided to stop checking the pace. Next time I checked my split was at 5.05, and it was 31:24, 6:08 average for the unmonitored section. Then I checked it again at 7.5, and it was 47:01, 6:07 average for the unmonitored section. Then I monitored it from then on, and tried not to let the observation influence the pace. It was a fairly steady 6:07 - 6:15 pace that appropriately reacted to the changes in the terrain, which told me I was truly running by effort.

Around 9.3 into the Uneventful Half I ran into Matt and he joined me. He has an interesting quality - whenever you run with him, you always feel like he is pushing the pace. Ran at around the same pace uphill to a little bit past Macey's with him (9:10 for 1.5), and then on the way back we were aided by the downhill, and both of us kind of cranked up the effort. I am not sure if I was responding to his moves, or if I was just making my own, but the pace eventually progressed into the sub-5:40 range. The last mile was 5:33. Total time for 13.11 was 1:20:13 (6:07.11 average). I toyed with the idea of cranking it up and catching the 1:20 guy, but I figured I would have had to run sub-5:20s, and I was not in the mood. Total time for 15.11 was 1:37:50.

Too fast for an aerobic run, perhaps, but I figured since I'd be running slow tomorrow, and I do not schedule hard speed workouts any more, and my body naturally wanted to run this fast, I'd let it.

Crocs - 65.41 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:05, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:52, 2.55 in 19:46 including 2.11 with Benjamin in 16:47. All in Crocs.

Crocs - 70.46 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 8.25
Comments
From George on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 15:03:32

Good post on several fronts Sasha.

Curious, do you have an opinion on base building be a period in which you need to exclusively train the aerobic system (aka MAF)? It would seem to me that you take a bit more of a multi-phased approach with some work in the aerobic "zone", but then also training of the anaerobic system with work such as today's.

From Katie on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 15:33:57

Hi, Sasha!

I was so excited to see a fastrunningblog. singlet in VA on Sunday! I wish I could have qualified and put in another good word for the blog!

Anyway, this sounds like a great book. Maybe it would help explain my 100% complete melt down in Virginia Beach yesterday!

Anyway, I'm thinking about running SLC marathon. Nothing was lost yesterday(except a toenail or two). Even though I've missed the OTQ's I still want to prove myself. Do you think Salt Lake City is a fast course? How does it compare to SGM?

From Tom on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 16:02:47

Sasha interesting to hear your thoughts/comments on the brain book. I've had this book for a few months and have incorporated much of the suggested programs into my workouts. When I first read it I could have sworn that you had already read it since many of his ideas were so similar to what you preach on the blog.

I'm curious...do you have any opinion on the AccelGel (w protein) vs. regular-Gel (carbs only) debate that the book discusses? Or how about the idea that on at least some long training runs it's advantageous to NOT fuel at all during the run with Gels/GU/Gatorade, etc?

From wheakory on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 17:07:32

You mentioned not scheduling speed work in your training anymore. Are you planning on just running tempo's and speed work when you feel a positive sign in your nervous system?

I've found that if I plan a tempo run (sometimes), I've got this dreadful feeling If I don't hit a certain pace then the training is not successful (bad brain signal) and that's happened. But if I'm in a training run (non-scheduled speed work) and feel real good and decide to go faster it seems to show better results. I believe the brain sends that positive feeling and you know you have the confidence in your legs to have an amazing run.

I'm not saying this happens all the time but sometimes.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 22:31:01

George - I did not train anaerobic system today. I do not get anaerobic until the pace is faster than 5:20. I do believe in aerobic focus, though. Anaerobic running for me is a more of an accident, I reserve it for the kick in a race, or for a 5 K.

Katie - SLC is a slow course. About 7 minutes slower than STG for a 2:20 - 2:30 marathoner. Probably 8 minutes slower for a 2:50 - 3:00. But they have had a fairly weak women's field lately, if you can do 2:55 you'll probably be in the money ($500). And you'll get to meet some bloggers.

Tom - I do not have an opinion on Accelerate vs non-protein sports drink, never tried it. I do fine on runs up to 20 miles with nothing. I do better in a marathon if I take highly concentrated Powerade or Gatorade in the middle, though.

Kory - I plan on doing speed when I happen to have a partner. And runs like this when I go a bit faster on accident. After my experience last winter, I am inclined to think in the direction that the need for speed work is very much overrated. If you race at least once a month, and pick up the pace sporadically on occasion, that is really all you need.

From George on Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 05:53:21

I am not saying I subscribe to this theory, but there is a thought that you are begining to metabolize from your anaerobic system as soon as your HR goes above a certain number (assumedly a number that is true for most of the population ... 180-age, +5 for an athlete of your level of training). What is your HR at 5:20 pace?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 17:51:20

According to the 220 - age formula I am 47 years old. My max HR is 173. Somewhere between 2000 and 2004 I suddenly aged 15 years (although I did not lose any of my top end speed, and improved on every distance from 5 K to the marathon). Then I stopped aging, again, if we are going to make the age-based HR estimates right. My resting HR has not changed since the age of 16. So I really do not pay much attention to age based formulas.

However, I race a marathon at over 90% of my max HR. At 5:20 I imagine I would hit around 163. I get 130 at 6:40 pace, 145 at 6:00 pace, and 155 at 5:40 pace.

From saamijeff on Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 18:31:00

Yes be careful of the 220-age formula. If you want to really know wear a monitor. I went the other way, I have not aged in 15 years,( although I run now and did not during many of those 15), my max HR is 183 same as it was when the formula would have been correct in 1994.

From George on Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:11:33

Sorry - I may not have explained myself well. The MAF theory (at a high level) is that you metabolize from your aerobic system at 180-age. This, of course, is a generalization. You could determine your exact aerobic HR with an expensive test, but for most folks (mean +/- 1 std dev), this works. There are a couple of ways to modify it (for low max HR folks, do a % of max for example; or as an other example do + 5 if you are well trained athlete, -5 if you are a new athlete). The thought is, and one that is heavily subscribed to by Mark Allen, is that in marathon endurance events - you are primarily stressing the aerobic system versus the anaerobic. Hence, you dedicate a significant portion of your training to base work - or training at or below maximum aerobic function. At first, many folks are slow - but then you adapt and become more efficient (faster) at this slower heart rate.

From what I can tell, supposedly your aerobic pace would be currently 6 min pace. Above that and you are begining to stress your anerobic system and metabolize from it.

Much better explained at: http://formationflier.spaces.live.com/default.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0

The issue for me is I am not sure I fully subscribe to NOT going above maximum aerobic function at all during the base building - but MAF advocates say this is key.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 15:48:52

I know for sure that I can race very well off high volume without ever breaking 6:00 pace in any of my workouts. I just experienced a string of PRs off that type of training. I do not know if the cause is in the purely aerobic vs partially anaerobic running, though. I attributed it to letting my nervous system rest and heal.

I would also argue that if racing a marathon is 98% aerobic, then anything slower than 5:45 on a flat terrain in Provo would be very well withing my aerobic territory. Which would have made my morning run purely aerobic with the possible exception of the last mile. And even then, I have watched my patterns of slow-down in marathons, and there is a common theme - I go one pace (about 5:30 sea-level flat equivalent) for 12-16 miles, then fairly quickly transition to another pace (about 5:55 flat sea level equivalent) and maintain it to the end without a further slowdown. I tried starting out slower, what happens is I transition to the slower pace regardless. I wonder if my true marathon pace is really around 5:30 flat sea level equivalent, or possibly even faster, but my nervous system gets tired after 12-16 miles of running hard. The subjective feeling would definitely agree with that theory. I do not feel light headed or sore when I slow down, my legs just start refusing to turn over fast enough. I do not feel particularly tired or sore when I finish, and have no problem running back and pacing somebody.

From adam on Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 16:27:25

regardless of heart rate, you would be doing anaerobic work for anything that is your 100-400m race pace, or 10-30s sprints. Some say that 800m race pace can be included in that, but I think that is more applicable to runners in the 1:40-1:50 range. (Slower than that and they are in 1500m range, and that is becoming more aerobic).

The percentage of aerobic/anaerobic increases with the increase in distance. And so for a 2:23 marathoner like Sasha, he wouldn't be getting into anaerobic range at all running in the mid 5 minutes (unless he kicked a 28sec 200m at the end).

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.300.601.200.0020.10

A.M. Crocs again. Started with Hyrum, Josse, and Jeff. Dropped Hyrum off at 2 miles. On his own initiative he ran his fastest post-comeback mile in 7:35 at the end. He'll be running with us all the way before too long.

Then I needed to go to the bathroom. Jeff and Josse took off. I ran a brief warm-up 0.5 in 3:08, then cranked it up and hit a 0.5-1% downhill quarter in 1:19, eased off under the bridges and with turns on the next one to 1:25, then picked it back up to 1:20 on the following, and then caught Jeff and Josse about 50 meters later. Had a VPB around 8 miles into the run, caught up at around 5:30 pace, no splits.

Dropped Jeff and Josse at 12.1, and ran 3 more by myself. Total time for 15.1 was 1:50:37.

Crocs - 85.56 miles.

P.M. Wore Crocs. 2 with Benjamin pushing Jacob in the single stroller in 16:52, then 3 not pushing anybody with Benjamin riding a bike in 19:43. Was running easy until the last 1000, then picked up the pace. All I wanted to do was catch the 6:40 guy for 3 miles, but once I pressed the gas pedal I was immediately at a slightly sub-6:00 pace. So I ended up with a 3:41 for the last 1 K.

Crocs - 90.56 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.42Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.92
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.750.450.000.0020.20

A.M. Ran with Jeff at 5:10 AM. Took a break from Crocs just in case, ran in racing flats. We started out with a 2:11 quarter (yes, that's right, 8:44 pace for 0.25, Kenyan warmup), 7:43 mile, then eased into a slightly sub-7:00 pace. After we crossed 9.6 mark I asked Jeff how he felt about catching the 1:10 guy, he said that would be fine. So we picked it up with around 0.45 to go, and ran the last two quarters in 1:28 and 1:22. I was surprised to see 1:22 on the last one as Jeff was telling me about the challenges of going to bed on time the entire time, and I was listening with more interest than I would normally have at 5:30 pace. Our time for 10.1 was 1:09:49, 6:54.75 average.

P.M. Wore Crocs. 1 with Julia in 10:48, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:20, 5.6 by myself in 36:57, and 2 with Benjamin in 16:34.

Crocs -  100.66 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.25
Comments
From nfroerer on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:05:27

100 miles in Crocs. That's got to be a guinness world record. Nice job!Are they holding up or do you need a new pair?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:13:27

They are holding up quite well. Most of the damage is in the toe area around 2 inches from the toe tip. I think they'll make it to 300 miles.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.520.000.000.0016.52

A.M. Must have eaten something rotten last night. Was not feeling good this morning. Resting HR was 66 instead of the usual 48. Felt nauseous. Went for a run anyway, but kept it short. Ate an apple right before the run, that seemed to help a bit. Ran with Jeff. Hyrum did not make it. We ran the first quarter in 2:21, and I really did not feel like I could go any faster. We finally caught the 8:00 guy around 2.5. Then we hit some headwind, we turned around and it became tailwind. Around 5.5 into the run I thought of Jeremiah 4:19:

My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace...

There is a good one in Lamentations 1:20 as well, which I found while looking up the reference on the first one:

Behold, O Lord; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled...

However, a mile later I started feeling better. We picked up the pace to sub-7:00. I ran to Jeff's house, dropped him off, then added the extra distance to make it 10.02. Thought of going a bit longer, but decided to err on the side of caution and finish the distance later tonight if I really felt better. Total time was 1:13:58.

Crocs - 110.68 miles

P.M. Stomach still feeling troubled. I set a dubious PR on this run for the number of different types of foul emissions from both ends of the digestive tract. Started with 0.5 in 3:44 to find Benjamin. Then 2 more with him in 16:14. Evaluated how I felt, and figured I should be able to handle another 4. Started with a 7:36 mile, feeling painful in the stomach, but nothing I cannot run through. Next mile in 7:05. Started feeling weak, like I wanted to walk home, or better, just lay down and not move at all. But the home is now 2 miles a way, so I'd better run, 2 miles of walking would be a long and painful walk with a sick stomach. Stopped for a VPB hoping it would make me feel better. Started running, still feeling weak, focused on a goal - keep it sub-8:00. After about half a mile I did not feel any better, but the pace got faster - started running 7:15 pace. Then about 3.35 into the run all of a sudden I started feeling extremely weak, I do not remember feeling that bad at the end of my worst marathon, and soon I found out why. A few seconds later I threw up, first time in 7 years. When I thought I was done, I started running, but was still feeling very weak, and for a good reason. I had more stuff to throw up. I stopped, finished the job, and all of a sudden felt almost normal. Finished the rest of the run at around 6:50 pace, 29:36 for 4 miles.

I think this experience provides a good case for the brain-governed fatigue model. I did not have any less glycogen in my muscles in the moment of weakness right before throwing up when I probably would not have been able to sustain 8:30 pace than a couple minutes later when I was comfortably running 6:50s. So the most sensible explanation of what happened I can think of is that my brain sensed extreme stomach distress, and started shutting down the muscles in response to facilitate coping with it. When the distress was over, the muscles started receiving normal signal.

Crocs - 117.18 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.83Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.83
Comments
From Tom on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:16:47

Loved the scripture references, maybe some of those OT prophets were runners too. I couldn't help but think that perhaps the 1st scripture meant to say "...I cannot hold my 'pace'...".

From wheakory on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:43:16

This is kind of the way James and I were feeling this week. I hope you can too can fight this immune systems attack. Nice way to finish your run.

From josse on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 15:46:50

Hope you are feeling better. Is it ok if I join you boys on saturday? Tom you should come too.

From James on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 15:52:54

Just don't hold onto it for a month like I did!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 15:59:25

Josse - that would be great. We'll pace you through the Uneventful Half.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 16:04:52

P.S - we are meeting at 6:30 AM at my house.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.180.005.000.0020.18

A.M. Ran with Tyler. My original plan was to pace him through a 5 mile tempo at 5:30 pace. With the stomach troubles of yesterday that plan was put into question. However, I decided to give it a try anyway. I told Tyler I would run 5:30s until I can't.

I did take some measures to ease the impact of GI distress. There were two concerns. One, if there is something in the stomach that is not being digested, the nausea will come up. Two, with the lack of ability to digest food, low blood sugar, and glycogen depletion would cause problems. I had an interesting experience with a 5 mile tempo after a stomach flu about a year ago when I was able to run 5:30s in the first 2 miles, but then very quickly digressed to 5:55s for the rest of the run. To mitigate the impact of the illness, I ate my standard breakfast meal right before bed (uncooked rolled oats, dates, and peanuts mixed with soy mile) along with some Powerade, and added a large cup of Powerade in the morning as well.

We warmed up 2.62 miles and started the tempo. First mile was 5:24 with perfectly even splits by quarter. I noticed Tyler was struggling a bit at 5:25, and eased off the pace to the 5:30 target. Next mile was 5:31. Around 2 miles my legs started feeling slightly toxic, and I was concerned. But I figured I'd keep the pace for as long as I can and not worry about it. If I have to stop, I have to stop. Then we did a half in 2:45, (13:40 at the turnaround), and the next half in 2:46, which gave us another 5:31 mile. We got into a nice 1:22 per quarter groove after that, and I now started feeling confident I'd be able to sustain it to the end. Tyler struggled a bit around 3.75, so I eased off to a 1:24 quarter, which gave us a 5:30 mile for the next split. The mini-break helped Tyler regain his strength, and he pushed the pace to a 1:23 quarter on the mini-uphill, followed by a 1:21 once it flattened out. With about 500 to go he started struggling again, and a gap began to open up, but I figured he would close it in the final kick especially if he had a moving target, so I just kept the pace. Which is pretty much what happened. I finished in 27:21.6, Tyler was withing 0.5 of a second, which gave him a PR for 5 miles, as well as 4 miles en-route. Last mile was 5:25. Incidentally, this is my 5 mile PR for wearing Crocs, and only 33 seconds slower than my fastest time on that course.

Then we did a long cool down at around 8:00 pace to make the total of 15 miles. I felt like I do at the end of a marathon on the last mile due to the lack of nutrition the day before, but otherwise everything was fine, much better than yesterday. I still could not eat very much at breakfast, but was able to get in enough to make me feel decent.

Crocs - 132.18 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:38, 0.15 to drop Julia off at the church and back, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:50, 2.53 with Benjamin to Jamba Juice in 21:55. Stomach still not good, dinner consisted of a small cup of Jamba Juice.

Crocs -  137.36 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Mike Warren on Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 13:20:04

Sasha, you just need to come to St. George and I will take you for a Double Cheeseburger at Carls Jr! That will fix you right up! Extra fry sauce and chocolate milk shake, olympic trials here you come!

From Dustin on Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 13:36:56

In and Out Burger will be opening soon Mike, and they use fresh ingredients. I have a Cold Stone Card you could use for the dessert. Actually Sasha, hope you get to feeling better and I'm quite certain you would be feeling much worse if you were to dine with me, Mike or the Wildbull down here in St. George.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 13:50:47

An upset stomach is very bad at digesting any form of meat. When I threw up yesterday, it was all ground turkey + some tomato peels. Everything else I ate in addition to that (whole-wheat pasta, oats, bread) had apparently been processed more productively.

From Tyler on Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 14:53:33

Sasha, you forgot to mention that you did the whole thing in Crocs. Imagine the commercial appeal if you ran sub-2:30 in those things!

From josse on Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 15:41:46

ewww yuck! that is a little graffic.

From Superfly on Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 17:15:18

I'm not sure a picture would be as descriptive. Yuck! Sorry about the tummy. I still can't believe you are running in the croc's!!!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.117.000.000.0025.11

A.M. We had quite a group this morning. Josse, Tyler, Steve Ashbaker, Cody, and Jeff. We paced Josse to a 1:34:51 Uneventful Half for a warm-up. This is her fastest time of the year on the slowest course she's run so far (if we adjust her Painter's time for the shortness of the course). Then Josse and Tyler were done, Jeff was going 16, Cody, Steve and I went for 20. We ran a tempo for the last 7 miles. I set a conservative goal of 6:00 pace given my stomach troubles lately and expecting a bonk.

I felt somewhat hungry in the morning before the run. That was a good sign. I ate a honey sandwich and drank a large cup of Powerade. I also drank a large cup of Powerade after we finished the warm-up.

Jeff was going to run 1.5 with us, then go back, Cody courageously decided to hang with us until death, then jog the rest of the distance. We ran the first mile of the tempo in 5:46, the pack was still intact. Jeff turned around at 1.5. We hit the next mile in 5:40 with some help from Steve's pace initiative. Then we noticed Cody was struggling, and eased off a bit to help him stay with us longer. He made it to about 2.75 mark. The next mile was 5:43. Steve moved upfront and pushed the pace, I just hung on for dear life. Next mile in 5:36 with a 180 in the middle. Steve was doing surges to 5:20 pace, then easing off. I started feeling a bit fuzzy in the head during the surges, and decided to just keep it steady and not respond. When I stopped responding to the surges, I felt a lot better, 1:23 quarters started feeling sustainable. 5:34 for the next mile in spite of a small net uphill. Steve's fervor died down a bit, he stopped surging. I enjoyed that, but not enough to move upfront and start pushing the pace. Our next mile was 5:37, and it was not a fast mile at all - net uphill, a couple of turns, sharp uphill curve coming from under the Geneva road bridge. On the last mile I finally felt like pushing the pace, so I moved upfront. We hit the next two nasty quarters (rolling net uphill, bridge tunnels) in 1:25 each. Then 1:24, and 1:21 on the last one with the help of a sprint in the last 60 meters, which gave us 5:35 for the last mile. Our total time for 7 miles was 39:31, 5:38.71 average. Total time for 20.11 was 2:14:22, 6:40.9 average.

I suppose my body learned to burn fats better since I've been doing high mileage. I have no other explanation as to where I found the fuel to do two workouts like the one today and the one yesterday while struggling with a stomach flu and putting in the miles.

P.M. Wore Crocs. 3 pushing Jacob in 22:24, then 2 with Benjamin (no Jacob) in 16:34. Still stomach flu issues, although better. Was able to eat my regular oats breakfast, and a large bowl of soy ice cream at night. Somehow managing to live off stored fat, I suppose.

Crocs - 142.36 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From benjamin on Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 20:05:32

Daddy are you sure that I broke the 6 mile world record?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Happy Easter. Took a 2 hour nap after church. Improvements on the stomach front. Was able to eat and digest the big turkey dinner Sarah made.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.900.500.000.0020.40

A.M. 2 with Hyrum in 16:22, 2.1 more with Sarah in 20:07, 11.1 more alone in 1:11:30. Picked it up on the last 0.5, ran a 1:30 quarter followed by 1:23. Stomach is feeling much better, pretty much normal, although I was not as hungry as I should have been. Wore Crocs.

Crocs - 157.56 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:30, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:07, 2 with Benjamin in 16:44, and 0.7 alone in 4:33.

Crocs - 162.76 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From James on Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 17:05:16

How are those Crocs holding up?

From Kim on Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 17:12:24

I can't believe you have 157.56 miles on your crocs! You need to notify the company! Maybe you can be to Crocs what Jared is to Subway......Money, money, money!

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 17:49:04

Still in good condition. No holes.

From James on Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 18:37:33

I might have to get me a pair if they hold up that well!

From Benn on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 08:28:17

Glad you're feeling better!! You really run in Crocs?! that's insane dude. I wouldnt think they were that good or comfortable

From Paul on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:18:29

Sascha,

You can do so much better for sponsorship than Crocs! Man even UGGS would be a step up!

From Paul on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:20:30

Sorry about the typo Sasha. I guess I was too excited about posting my lame joke. I blame letsrun.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.400.001.000.0020.40

A.M. Stomach issues continued. Still not as hungry as I ought to be, not eating as much, plus the runs. But otherwise, surprisingly I am able to train. Started with 10.1 with Jeff, Josse, and Brad. They ran it in around 1:18, but thanks to 4 VPBs I ended up with 1:15:01 and about 1 mile worth of tempo running. Timed a 0.3125 segment at 1:40, exactly 5:20 pace. Then ran 2.1 with Sarah. Josse joined us for the first 2.1. The time was 21:05. Afterwards 3 more in 19:21, total time for 15.2 was 1:55:27.

Crocs - 177.96 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:23, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:46, 2 with Benjamin in 16:01, and 0.7 alone in 4:50.

Crocs - 183.16 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.17Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 8.67
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:45:39

4 VPB's that has to be a record Sasha. With the Crocs not have much backend heel support do you feel any difference with that?

What do you hope on gaining in your training by using the Crocs?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:21:51

Kory - I've had more. I think the record is 6, all serious business. Today only 3 were serious. Not too bad for an upset stomach.

I think backend heel support is what kills your running form. I love having none. Crocs encourage you to not heel-strike. It hurts if you do. The ground contact time goes down. Overall, the stride feels more fluid, more efficient. I noticed less fatigue towards the end of a hard run, and a lot easier to deal with pace variations in tempos. You need to accelerate, boom, you're there in 3 seconds even if you are tired instead of 20. And when you put on racing flats afterwards, you are not afraid to hit the ground harder, which gives you more power.

From Guest on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 15:26:25

I get the gist of what a "VPB" is, but what exactly does VPB stand for? Very Private Break? Violent Projectile Barfing? Voluminous Potty Bottom?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 16:13:23

Virtual Private Bathroom

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.600.600.000.0020.20

A.M. Took a break from Crocs. 10.1 in 1:10:12 with Jeff at 5:15 AM. Jeff's quads were tired from a bike ride on Monday.

P.M. Wore Crocs again. 2 miles with Benjamin in 15:22. He started wearing Crocs as well. Yesterday he was getting used to them, today I think he caught on. His last mile was 7:19, and it came naturally with no encouragement on my end to catch any kind of guy. Then ran 8 more alone in 50:35. That makes it 1:05:57 for 10, 6:35.7 average, and 6:19.38 average for the last 8. A bit fast, but Crocs tend to put a bit of a devil in me, so it felt very good. Had a song in my head from one of the later sequels of Nu Pogodi where the savage cannibal rabbits are trying to eat the wolf, and it got me going. Saw Bill Cobler with Breanna on their bikes certifying the Provo City Half. Picked it up to slightly sub-6:00 pace with 0.6 to go.

Crocs - 193.16 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From Maria on Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:05:33

Sasha,

strange thing happened just now - I can't find Lybi's blog. I wanted to leave her a comment, but couldn't see in the list or the search. The URL redirects to fast running blog homepage. Did her blog get corrupted somehow?? Do you know what happened? I'm pretty sure it was fine yesterday or the day before.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.750.000.250.0020.00

A.M. Jeff was sick this morning with stomach problems, so he did not come. I suppose I passed the baton to him. Mine, on the other hand, was in super shape after taking some acidophilus. Yesterday it was anxious to digest everything in sight, and the trend continued today.

Ran the first 8 miles with Brad. We started with a Kenyan warmup. First quarter in 2:19, first mile in 8:40. Then we sped up a bit, but did not catch the 8:00 guy until past 4 miles. After that we went faster, and ended up with 1:00:59 for the distance.

Dropped Brad off and went for 7 more in 45:25, 6:29.29 average. Total time for 15 was 1:46:24, 7:05.6 average. Picked it up a bit on the last quarter, ran it in 1:22. It was windy, but not too bad.

This run brought my Crocs over the 200 mile landmark. What is interesting that the amount of wear increased at a much smaller rate between 100 and 200 vs the first 100 miles.

Crocs - 208.16 miles.

P.M. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:02, 1.5 alone in 10:27, 2 with Benjamin and pushing Joseph in the stroller in 15:22.

Crocs - 213.16 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 13:57:07

How many ounces are your Crocs? This is an impressive experiment. Next thing you'll run a marathon in them. Good luck and I hope the tread stays on them for a while.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.500.005.000.0019.50

A.M. Tyler came to run with me this morning. Benjamin wanted to run part of our warm-up. He wore Crocs again. His first mile was 7:42. Afterwards, he hit two quarters in 1:46 each. I challenged him to break 7:00 on the last mile, and he took off as if his name was Haile or Kenenisa. It was not so much the speed as the long stride and the apparent ease with which it came. His next two quarters were both 1:41, which made it 6:54 for the mile, and 14:36 for 2 miles.

Tyler and I ran another 1.38, and then started our 5 mile tempo. Our first two miles were 5:28 each, followed by 0.5 in 2:45 right before the turnaround. Tyler was hanging back a bit during the first 0.5, but as soon as we turned around he started pushing the pace. We ran the next 0.5 in 2:42, which gave us 5:27 for the third mile. We coasted through another 0.5 in 2:44, and then Tyler started pressing the pace again, and we did 2:40 for the next 0.5, 5:24 for the mile. This started to feel hard, but I thought I'd be able to run at least 5:20 for the last mile. Tyler pressed even harder and hit the uphill quarter in 1:19. I hung back a bit and did 1:20. After that Tyler started to slip away. I thought it was because he picked it up to 5:10 pace, but the split at the next quarter showed that he was just holding 5:20, and I was slowing down. My next quarter was 1:22. In the last half mile, Tyler held a steady pace and finished in 27:06. My legs started to give out, and I slowed down to a 1:24 quarter followed by 1:23 on the last one. 5:29 for the last mile, and 27:16.8 for 5 miles, 5:27.36 average.

Last 0.5 felt like the last leg of Del Sol. Barely breathing, but cannot go any faster even for 50 meters for the life of me. Probably because I've been speeding on my easy runs lately. I am discovering that the nervous system is a funny animal. You cannot tell it is fatigued without trying to run at top end. And because of that, it is difficult to tell if you are wearing it out too much, especially in my case when the aerobic ability is high, the muscles are damage-resistant, but the neurological ability is low. I need to make sure I do not exceed 7:00 pace on my easy runs even if I feel like running 6:20s.

Tyler, on the other hand, got a 5 mile PR, and a 4 mile PR en route as a bonus. His recent increase in mileage is starting to pay off.

Ran some more with Tyler at 8:00 pace, dropped him off at 12 miles, then ran 3 more to make it 15.

Crocs - 228.16 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:35, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:33, two more alone in 15:21.

Crocs - 232.56 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 9.33Nap Time: 0.83Total Sleep Time: 10.17
Comments
From Clay on Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 14:51:16

What is the point of running in Crocs? Just curious... Don't your feet get sore in those darn things?

Keep up the good work, you are amazing:)

From Superfly on Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 15:08:34

So at 228.16 miles how are those babies holding up? Can you see signs of wear or are they still looking and feeling strong. You could be on to something here!

Are you running Striders Half? If so I'll see you up there next week.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 15:27:57

The point of running in Crocs is to get the benefits of barefoot running without exposing your feet to the debris on the roads. My feet feel just fine in them. The Crocs are fine at 228 miles so far. In fact, they have not gotten any worse since the 100 mile barrier. Which gives me hope that they might make it past 500. I am running the Provo City Half instead of Strider's, as it is essentially in my own back yard.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
22.850.002.000.2525.10

A.M. Long run with Jeff and Tyler. We ran very easy. Around 10 miles into the run a runner named Matt caught up to us, and we picked it up to his pace. Or maybe he slowed down to ours. We invited him to join the blog. I think he just did, but he has not yet posted the workout, or enough bio to be able to tell for sure.

I did 2x200 accelerations each in 37 seconds involuntarily due to being over-hydrated. We dropped Tyler off at 15.1, my time was 1:54:05, Jeff and Tyler would have been a bit slower. Then we ran some more. Jeff turned around after a mile, and I went another mile with Matt, then another 0.5 and turned around. I debated whether I should run the last 2 fast. The benefits would have been getting home sooner, and practicing running fast at the end of a long run. The concern was that yesterday I was showing signs of neural fatigue, and those little pickups day after day may add up. Finally, the desire to be home and eating breakfast sooner prevailed over everything. I thought 5:40 pace would be good, given that there is a 40 feet of elevation gain in those 2 miles, lots of turns, and ups and downs when going under bridges. But it turned out that I had more juice than I thought. My splits by quarter were 1:23, 1:22, 1:23 (under a bridge, then sharp curve to do 270 turn), 1:21, 1:23 (3 underpasses), 1:23 (underpass, uphill), 1:21, and 1:19 for the total of 10:55 for 2 miles. There was an occasional tail wind around 5-7mph.

This gave me 2:27:27 for 20.1. I was pleased to see that I felt very energized in the last 2 miles. My guess is that running at 7:30 pace with friends for me is more like a leisurely walk in the forest. It nurtures my nerves, and then I have the energy, even if it is a long run. Running 6:30 alone, on the other hand, may feel just as easy, but it slowly burns the nerves out.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:07, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:17, 2.5 with Benjamin in 21:27.

Crocs - 237.56 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From Hayden on Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 23:08:36

Hello Sasha this is Hayden otherwise known as Running Warrior on the blog. Good job on all the miles you are putting in. Hey if you ever have any advise or anything feel free to stop by i'm open to anything. Thank You.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Went to church.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.220.000.000.0020.22

A.M. Woke up and saw ice on the road again. Bummer. Or maybe a blessing in disguise - it would be easy not to speed on base runs. Decided not to wear Crocs to keep the feet from getting too cold.

Started with 4 with Hyrum and Daniel. It was cold, windy, and slippery. I saw a big traffic jam on I-15 as we went under it, and said to myself - I am glad I am not driving in this! Then I realized that the drivers who saw me would probably think - "I am glad I am not running in this!", but not after a few minutes of thinking. We ended up with 36:55 for 4 miles, but it was about 40 seconds faster for me due to a VPB.

Ran another mile with Daniel in 8:43. Then 10.1 by myself in 1:18:02 slipping, getting blown off by the wind at times, and admiring the scenery. Saw a few birds. Too bad I did not have Karl Jarvis with me. I could only identify the ducks.

P.M. 0.5 with Julia in 5:37, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:17, 2x100 with Joseph in 43 and 41, Joseph got a PR in 100 today. Then 2 with Benjamin in 16:12, and 1 alone in 7:49.

Crocs - 242.68 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.75
Comments
From Tyler on Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 14:53:10

The 5000m starts at 4:30pm on Friday.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.470.000.630.0020.10

A.M. We had quite a group this morning. Jeff, Josse, Brad, and Daniel. It eventually dwindled to just Jeff and Josse. I did 2 post-VPB pickups, first time 0.375 in 2:05, and then 0.25 in 1:20. Then we found Adam on the trail. Dropped off Josse, ran some more with Jeff and Adam. Dropped off Jeff, finished the run with Adam. Total of 15.1 in 1:58:40. It got colder - 20 F, but no snow on the ground.

Just wrote a comment on Lybi's blog that physical youth should continue until 45 under, and remembered that SelectMed (former IHC) decided to give me a birthday present in the form of raising our rate from $268/month to $337. The reason being that I turn 35 on April 21. This makes me furious, and I choose to not restrain the fury.

I can mingle with high schoolers and they will not have a clue I am not one of them unless I open my mouth and reveal my ignorance of whatever matters are considered important in their circles, or unless we run a marathon, in which case they would finish far behind. Neither one of those differences should be considered a reason for a higher health insurance rate.

This is more than a matter of paying extra $69 a month. This is about having to deal with a system that suffers from people making unhealthy lifestyle choices, knows very well that it does, but at the same time is sufficiently inept to fail to reward those who earnestly and passionately strive to be in good health.

I am looking for a health insurance provider that can give our family catastrophic health insurance for less. And particularly for somebody who would honor a healthy lifestyle. If anybody has suggestions, feel free to share. I think we should have a law that requires a health insurance provider to use biological rather than chronological age for calculating premiums. Otherwise, health insurance companies just get lazy and follow the path of the least resistance.

P.M. 0.5 with Julia in 5:37, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:36, 2 with Benjamin in 15:15, and 1 alone in 7:31.

Crocs - 262.78 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.25
Comments
From Clay on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 13:32:17

I have Blue Cross Blue Shield of Utah and they are pretty fair. Sasha I am in the industry and there is not an insurer out there that will not go by the age:( And it truly is unfair for those of us who strive to be in good shape and actually take care of ourselves... That is the reason I don't sell it anymore, its just to volatile!!!

They should look at the individual and access a premium based on the physical attributes of that person, but they won't!!

I agree they are to darn lazy!

And I could go on and on, it drives me crazy!!!!!

From Andy on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 13:49:36

I guess telling you that I work for SelectHealth would be a bad idea (I even work in the department that sets the rates). Rates are based on averages and it would be be next to impossible to assess the risk and set rates for each individual. It would be nice to have incentives for living a healthy lifestyle but how could you prove that?

From josse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 14:00:57

Let me know if you find one.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 14:16:50

You could do an optional fitness test. If somebody feels he belongs to a younger age group, have him prove it by running a 5 K on a certified course, for example. Or performing in some other athletic event at a level characteristic of a younger age group.

From Andy on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 14:27:11

That still will not prove that you won't get cancer, that your wife won't have a baby, that your kids won't be sick, etc. Athletic people can also cost a lot because of the injuries associated with participating in athletic events. It is frustrating to put so much money into something that you never use but it is worth the security of having it in case you need it.

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 14:29:56

Pretty much all of the insurance claims I file are running-related. I would be healthier if I wasn't a competitive runner.

From Clay on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 14:45:08

I agree with Andy & Paul there are draw backs and issues assiated with every individual and it is nice to have that added security... But there are some companies that will pay 100% for some procedures if they help with prevention such as, Mammograms and the like... So that is a positive:)

I still won't sell it though, its to hard to keep the client happy because of the frequent rate hikes, and taking away of coverages...

Alot of people complain about having and paying for insurence whether its health, auto, home, commerical or farm, until they have a loss and then there dang glad they have it. Its alot better to have the insurance company use their check book as apposed to using your own:)

From an agents point of view anyway:)

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 14:58:54

No, but how is being chronologically 25 any better than being chronologically 35 for those things? Merely being 25 still does not prove you will not have cancer. Running a 5 K under 20:00 minutes goes a lot further to prove that I will not have cancer or heart disease in the near future than just plain being 25.

My insurance rate went up $69/month solely for the reason of me moving into a higher age group. And this is for a catastrophic insurance, which does not pay for maternity, and has a $5000 per person deductible.

Do not know of anybody has done any research on this, but I would be very surprised if age was a better predictor, or even got anywhere close, of the need for medical treatment above $5000/year than your recent 5 K time.

Are the insurance rates going through the roof because America is now becoming more athletic, and the cost of treating athletic injuries is increasing, or is it more because Americans are becoming obese, and we are starting to pay the cost of treating the consequences? If it is the former, I do not mind paying for the risk of being fit. If it is the latter, I do not want to have to pay for other people's choices to get fat and lazy.

From SAAMIJEFF on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:02:20

My rates just increased 43% and neither me or my wife hit a new age group this year. I totally agree that age alone makes no sense. Highly fit people must have a statistically lower probability of major medical problems. I am still seeing red over the increase.

From Andy on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:04:59

Without a doubt, rates are going up because we are generally less healthy because of our lifestyles. Aside from putting every person through a thorough physical and genetic testing, is there really a good way to assess risk? On average, 35 year olds are more expensive than 25 year olds. While this is not true for you or probably anybody else on the blog, it is true for the population as a whole.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:05:50

Paul - it is because you are too healthy to file other claims, and that health comes from consistent exercise and the life style that it forces you to live. If you did not run, you would be filing other claims after a while, which would be more expensive.

Clay - I do not mind paying for insurance. I understand how insurance works. It is all about risk management. You work with statistics, and try to identify the levels of risk for each group. What I mind is paying for the failure of others to manage their own risks, and the failure of the insurance company to recognize that I belong to a different group.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:15:23

Andy - how do you know it is not true for me or anybody else on the blog?

Suppose your boss told you that you could insure a group of 1000 35 year old men that have run a 5 K under 20 minutes every year for the last 5 years at the rate of the 25 age group, and then whatever difference was left over from what you had to pay in expenses for that group was the profit you could take home, but otherwise you had to pay for the loss out of your pocket, would you do it?

From Lybi on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:26:41

I really really don't think that any insurance company is going to start taking 5K times as a qualification for premiums. So few people out there run competitively! Do you realize how mad it would make most of their customer base if they started evaluating people that way? I know that you really feel everyone in the world should run (I think I even remember seeing a comment that people should be chained to cars and dragged ten miles if they cannot run it (chuckle/wince)). But the reality is that insurance companies work with averages, and the average person does not run competitively, unfortunately.

But I do agree that it would be nice if there were extra bonuses for people who make healthy choices, and penalties for people who, say, ride death-mobiles, I mean motorcycles. (I just made someone mad, I can feel it.)

From Clay on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:31:35

Sasha, you can be the most physically fit person in the world but you are still at risk for cancer, or whatever!!! A Friend of mine took care of himself and exercised daily, ate right and developed colon cancer and died with in a year of getting diagnosed, and he was 44.

He would probably agree with your argument and like it or not regardless of how well you take care of yourself as you get older your body starts to deteriorate and I can attest to this being 45 years old! There are things that I could do at 35 that I can't do as well at 45 and when I'm 55 I'm sure it will be the same and I consider myself to be in good shape:)

Just food for thought:)

From Lybi on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:41:57

Not to change the subject drastically, but did you know that you can significantly reduce your risks of developing cancer of any kind by fasting regularly? My brother is learning about this in medical school. He said that when your body goes without food, after a while it starts to break down its own cells for energy. I know that doesn't sound very good, but it is, because the body chooses to cannabalize the older, more damaged cells first, which are the ones more prone to turn cancerous. I'd bet Sasha's risks of developing cancer are significantly lower than that of the average population.

From josse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:52:58

Why because he would rather starve than eat the average persons diet? I do agree with you Lybi about the 5k comment and the last one. Insurance coverage is what it is and the insurance plus medical world can and will make money off of us because we need them. Ya this makes me mad just as much as the next person. But what are you going to do?

From josse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 15:54:10

I think Sasha is just trying to get something going here to beat you Lybi in most comment on his bolg.

From Jon on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 16:02:22

Interesting discussion. I agree that it is frustrating when premiums go up with age, but that is inevitable. I know my dad's went up $600/month when he turned 50. $600!!! It is true that medical expenses get higher on average as you age, though- higher chance of cancer, heart attack, more medicine, etc.

I like the idea of having fitness bonuses, though. My company is charging employees higher premiums if anyone in their family smokes. I hear they are considering BMI premiums, too, for obese people. And they discount fitness centers and give small rewards for some health improvements.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 16:03:41

Clay - your friend is an exception. Insurance is not about what might possibly happen. It is about how many times it will happen if the group is large enough, and how to define the group to reduce the probability of it happening. We know that being sedentary and eating junk will make costly things happen more often. We also know how to distinguish with a high degree of certainty between those who are sedentary and those who are not.

Lybi - why would it make anybody mad if the insurance company provided discounted rates to those who met a certain set of fitness standards? Not a lot of people run competitively, but most people who do what they are supposed to and deserve a cut in insurance rates can either run a 5 K under a certain time, or bike 10 miles under a certain time, or swim 400 yards under a certain time. You do not have to be a competitive athlete to meet a certain appropriately determined standard. Anything wrong with having a choice? I can tell the company to use my age to calculate my rates, or my 5 K run time, or my 10 mile bike time, or my 400 yard swim time. As opposed to using something I absolutely can do nothing about - my chronological age. Overtime this would encourage more people to exercise consistently. Going from a 30:00 5 K to 25:00 5 K would mean more than just bragging rights.

And we would also have more data on the correlation between exercise performance and health, as the insurance companies would be tracking it. Which could lead to some important scientific discoveries in the future.

I think the root of the problem is that 95% of the employees of the insurance companies do not regularly exercise themselves. Therefore, they come up with policies that represent only their sedentary perspective. In a democratic society that consists of 19 wolves and 1 sheep, what would be the popular answer to the question: "What's for dinner?"

From Maria on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 16:09:43

Sasha, come to the UK. For all its problems, NHS (National Health Service) is absolutely free for everyone. I was skeptical at first, thinking it is too "socialist". After my recent ordeal, I am very impressed with doctors' expertise as well as their attitude. They do not overprescribe medications and they do not order million of unnecessary and expensive tests. They also listen to their patients. I do have private insurance as well, paid completely by my employer (no contributions from me), and I even managed to get money FROM my insurance - simply because I stayed in NHS hospital rather than a private one. I was shocked.

But to your point, I understand your frustration. But I do not know any US insurance company that would not increase rates based on age. The best I've seen were incentives for exercising, like covering the cost of gym membership.

From Jon on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 16:13:06

Sasha, I think you reached the root cause when you said that 95% of people don't exercise. I'm sure it is not worth the time/money to come up with exceptions like this from the insurance company's perspective. Besides, if you allow exercise exceptions, then someone else will want exceptions because their family has a history of living to 100 years with no heart problems and no cancer. I'm sure there are lots of people that could seek exceptions, but it would be too difficult to figure out what was legit. Hence, the simple, age-based cost.

From Jon on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 16:15:23

One thing you can be sure of, though. Regardless of your premiums increasing, your out-of-pocket costs should be lower because you are fit. So in some ways, you are saving money versus unhealthy people.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 16:51:43

Jon - it should be. Because we are talking about rewarding a behavior that moves an individual into a lower risk group. Rewarding somebody with good genes does nothing to change the behavior.

There are two types of companies - the ones that are there just to make a profit, and the ones that are there to make a profit while making a difference. An insurance company that cares to make a differences will not be satisfied with accepting the current patterns of behavior and merely profiting from them. It would try to contribute to improving those patterns. And it would reward any exceptional pattern of behavior that is proven to reduce health risks if there existed a logistical feasibility. They would also seeks ways to reward those patterns for the cases when it was not logistically possible at the time.

From cgbooth23 on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 17:49:41

WE need more Sasha's running these types of business's! I agree 100% with what you are saying and get frustrated every month when my auto draw takes out my health ins. premium!

At one point health ins. companies were considering lowering premiums to companies that had a Welness program, I am out of the cooperate world now so I don't know if that is happening??

From air darkhorse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 17:53:52

Wife says everybody wants grandma to live sicker and longer and they all want Cadillac treatments at Hyundai prices.

From air darkhorse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 17:55:39

She would know,believe me being in health care management.

From josse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 17:57:57

I can see it now, everyone lining up for the annual 5k fintess dicount program, winner gets free insurance for a month. No I do think it is a good idea but, I don't think it should go off time just completion of something that shows you are active. Like a 5 or 10k or a mini tri or something of that sort. The fact is that these are money driven businesses and they don't want to give healthy people discounts.

From Benn on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 18:10:11

I know from my own experiences this past year, I haven't had a physical in 3 years, yet when I went to get one, despite my insurance saying they cover 1 physical / year, I was informed I owed 165 bucks. Why you might ask? Because they don't cover "preventative" medicine. Go figure that even with super high premiums, they'll only cover it if you're actually in grave danger. FYI I have Blue Cross Blue Shield. Currently looking for a different one. I think there was a commercial about one that gives discounts if you have an active lifestyle.

From Jody on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 18:24:16

Wow, quite the discussion. Being in the healthcare business, there is not a real solution to the problem. I will say, however, that IHC has a big strong hold on the Utah market. Other carriers offer private policies. A lot of it depends on what facilities and physicians you want access to. I have DMBA, they offer incentives for healty living in the form of CASH! I also have a policy from Colonial life which pays extra (cash to me) for healthy choices, annual exams and screening.

I completely recommend that before signing up for any policy that all coverages are understood completely. My biggest frustration with patients is their lack of understanding what they pay for with insurance.

I agree with Steve Ashbakers wife!!

But bottom line - Would anyone risk going without insurance?

From ryan on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 19:19:52

pres Hinckley was asked once if he runs. He said something like "no, but all of my friends that did are dead". there is a lot more to health and longevity than just excercise.

From josse on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 19:26:38

Well said Ryan!

From Jon on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 21:57:15

So the solution to long life is to not run and to be the prophet! Hmm... not too many could sign up for that one. :)

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 22:21:07

Or to drink a beer and smoke once in a while. Check this guy out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7275861.stm

he could very well say that his younger friends who never smoked or drank are dead too.

From Cody on Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 23:06:01

I have mentioned this before and it is actually a thread on the message board. There are alternative methods for health insurance in the form of HSA's. You would carry the high deductible insurance (which I agree is over priced due to many reasons), but from then on YOU manage your own health costs from a tax free account. The account grows when you don't use it (there is your incentive to not see the doctor unnecessarily). If people were actually responsible for paying more than $20 co-pay health care cost would decline for everyone.

That being said, I agree that people should have good health due to exercize incentives. How they do it can be argued forever, but there should be some. However, that COSTS money to the company in the short term so they dont do it. They always choose the easier/cheaper routes.

The bigger problem is all the genetic disorders or cancer or high risk pregnancies that people have (I am speaking from experience here). Do you punish the people that have them? Since they raise the average cost for everyone, should they be charged more? THAT is the whole point of insurance. It is easy for people to say, "Insurance costs too much" but they are probably not the people who were not the recipients of aid. Do the people who have cancer or a genetic disorder complain that they paid $450 a month for thousands of dollars in aid? Could they also run a 5K in 20 mins or less, many could. Would it change much of their actual costs if the ones that couldn't actually could? No I do not disagree that many americans are over-weight and could benefit from exercize, but that is not my point.

Fix the Hospital/Doctor overpricing issues and the insurance will go down. That is the main problem. Having everyone run a physical fitness test would help, but stopping the doctor from charging $100 for a 5 min poke and prod would help more.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.130.000.000.0020.13

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff in 1:17:43. Discussed the effect of high mileage on all out speed and high school performances. Supposedly science says that if you do high mileage, the midgrade fibers become more slow-twitch oriented, and that kills your explosive power. If that is true, I must not have any of those because I've never gained all out speed by reducing mileage, or lost it by increasing it. Nor have I ever seen a reasonably well documented case when this has actually happened to somebody. If anybody has one, feel free to share.

Crocs - 272.88 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:41, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:41, 5.53 alone in 41:33, and 2 with Benjamin in 15:30.

Crocs - 282.91 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From josse on Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 15:04:56

Only 10 this morning, are you cutting back for the race?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 15:05:40

No, it is the temple day. I only had time for 10. Will do 10 more in the evening.

From cgbooth23 on Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 15:52:08

Are you doing striders on Saturday? If so look forward to meeting you, I am running and also live on the route, towards the end in Eden!

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 16:00:10

I am running the Provo City Half, but I will be there for the Ogden Marathon.

From wheakory on Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 16:21:47

Sasha, are you also running the Salt Lake Marathon?

I've read that the more high mileage runs with less quality explosive runs will cause you to loose or not use the fast twitch fiber muscles.

Now the question is how much do you need to use them to keep the fast twitch fibers active, and keep them at the same performance level or obtain a higher level?

From Adam RW on Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 21:39:03

I'll have to look it up. But in the meantime York High School would be the argument against this. When I was in high school they were in the area and most of their runners were running in the 90-110 mpw range and they beat everyone. I don't think many did much after high school but for the short term it worked for them.

"The most successful American high school cross country coach is Joe Newton from York Community High School in Elmhurst, Illinois. His teams have won 26 Illinois state titles in 50 years. York was also the first winner of the Nike Team National Cross Country meet in 2004." from Wikipedia

From Lulu on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 12:54:21

Ok Sasha, I went back through your blog and figured out why you are running in Crocs (or Walmart's version of Crocs). Have you tried Nike Free shoes? (This is a retorical question as I know that if you can get Walmart Crocs for $5 you wouldn't bother with $85 shoes). The Frees are supposed to be for near-barefoot running. I have run in those before and found that for the first few years, they don't cause any injury, but eventually it did catch up with me. My current peroneus issues may be from running in the Frees. My arch on the outside of my right foot is non-existant now and the left is on its way. Just something for you to consider. I will follow your experiment.

From Jon on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 17:55:07

Sasha, the big question is if you are going to race Saturday in crocs...

From josse on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 18:24:38

Lulu-I think Sasha could run on his hands and not get injured.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 22:21:20

Just to be safe I'll run in my racing flats. However, if somebody offered me an incentive I would race in Crocs. I think speed-wise they are comparable to racing flats.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.970.002.001.0020.97

A.M. Tempo run with Jeff. Jeff wanted to do something shorter and faster, and I was not opposed. So we decided to do 3 miles starting at Geneva road, 1.5 out, 1.5 back. The plan was to go 5:30 pace. We stuck to the plan through the first 0.5. Then I led a quarter in 1:20, and Jeff did his in 1:19. This gave us 5:24 at the mile. We were both feeling good so far. Then a devil got into me and I did the next two quarters in 1:17 and 1:18, which gave us 7:59 at 1.5. After that I realized I did not want to run my race today, and told Jeff I did not want to go that fast. He took us through the next quarter in 1:24, which felt great, expect it was too slow. I thought I'd recover from the earlier adventure, and now would want to pick it up, but I did not - next quarter in 1:23, 10:46 at 2 miles followed by a 1:24 up the mini-hill. Jeff had had it, and took the next quarter in 1:21. I took over and eased off to 1:24 without trying. I suppose that is what happens when you focus on not breathing too hard. Then Jeff put the hammer down and hit 1:18 on the last quarter. I reluctantly followed, very reluctantly, but at least I could do it. I ended up with 16:13.8 on my watch.

Ran a long cool down, part of it with Jeff, part with Derek Davis on his way to work. Total of 15.6 for the run.

Not sure what to think of this workout. It was definitely odd with 5:24.6 average, a mid-mile in 5:14, and a 5:21 mile pieced together of the 4 fastest quarters. Wanting to run 5:10 pace after the first mile is good. Slowing down to 5:36 pace to recover from it, and feeling the effects for so long is bad. I am wondering if I am ready to start racing a half at 5:10 pace in some ways, but some glue is lacking to make it happen. And if so, the following training might supply the glue - run 5:10 pace until I can't hold it without a heroic effort or at all. Stop, jog 200 meters. Try again. Repeat until I have 5 miles total in at 5:10 pace. Any thoughts?

Crocs - 298.51 miles.

P.M. Ran the Costco Relay with my kids. We start at our house, and each kid does his run as Sarah drops them off/picks them up on the way. First 1.06 with Julia in 11:30. Then 1.54 with Jenny in 13:03. Then Benjamin being full of energy ran 21:07 for 2.77 with 100 feet of elevation gain which is 7:38 average. This put my Crocs over 300 miles. Still no holes, but one place in the forefoot wore out to about maybe a half of the original width on both feet.

I have run a marathon with a holey shoe before (Moab 2005). The hole was not big at the start, and I thought the race would be all on asphalt, so I would be OK. Then we hit a dirt road around mile 21, and a rock made its way through it which expanded the hole. To make things worse, it started raining too. Then when I got to the finish, the chute was not set up. So I timed myself, and went to work with one other helper to set up the chute and the computers before the second place finisher would make it. My hands were too cold, and not moving very fast, so even though there was a 15 minute gap, we had to time the second finisher manually, as well as third, and forth. After that, everything was smooth.

Something interesting always happens at the Moab Marathon. In 2006 I had to crawl under a barbed wire to get to the finish because of getting on the wrong side of it in the last quarter mile. It was on April Fool's Day, but it was no April Fool's Day joke.

Crocs - 303.88 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From Brent on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 20:14:16

Sasha, you will run brave and strong saturday, you are the leader of all out effort.

Stay Kool, B of BS Rools out

From adam on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 20:58:56

was this in the crocs? have you run 5:10 pace in the crocs before?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 22:07:49

Yes, this was in Crocs. And this was the fastest mile I've run in Crocs so far.

From adam on Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 23:03:33

if it were me, I wouldn't base a new training idea off of what I felt running one mile on experimental shoes.

if you noticed this on a consistent basis, in normal conditions, then it might be cause to think something is missing...but for right now, you are just beginning to run in beach sandals- so you have to factor that in.

i wish i could even get one of those 5:10 miles in again, let alone in crocs.

From Paul on Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 08:27:34

Sasha,

Why are you running in Crocs?

From Paul Petersen on Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 08:51:09

Sasha - see my race entry for 8-25-07. I basically did an interval workout during the race, but ended up just a few seconds off my PR (with a tailwind). I found that just a minute of easier running was enough to recover. It would not surprise me if you had success with long intervals with short recoveries. However, I would keep the intervals at a controlled distance, rather than go until failure.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 16:15:42

Paul - the purpose of running in Crocs is to practice barefoot-like running. Eventually I will probably transition to Virbam Five Fingers once St. George Running Center gets them in.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. Hibernated my way through 15.1 in 1:55:48, 11.1 of it with Jeff. My body thought 7:40 was a good pace, 7:45 even better. This is a good sign. I noticed that when my body wants to hibernate before a race, I often have good races.

Crocs - 318.98 miles.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:30, then later 2 with Lybi and James in 18:48, and 1 more with James in 9:02.

Crocs - 323.98 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Race: Provo City Half Marathon (13.11 Miles) 01:13:19, Place overall: 2
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.100.0013.110.0024.21

A.M. Brief report. Provo City Half, 1:13:19, 2nd pace after Shin Nozaki, a Japanese runner living in Orem who ran 1:11:20, great time for that course on a windy day. We ran together up to about 5.2, then he made a strong move and dropped me, then kept increasing the gap throughout the race.

Full report to follow. Drove up to the start with James, Lybi, and Adam. Warmed up around 2 miles with Adam. The race started 20 minutes late due to the chip pickup problem. I wonder why they were not handing the chips at the packet pickup. Talk to Shin at the start. Checked out the crowd. Did not identify any trouble otherwise, but was aware that some may still be lurking.

In the report, I did not use a GPS, and am giving the splits from my $9 Walmart watch by the mile markers painted on the road (as opposed to the race signs. You should ALWAYS go by what is painted on the road on a certified course), and the elevations are from the official race course profile at MapMyRun.Com.

BYU ROTC cadets fired the gun. I somewhat embarrassingly nearly missed the turn on 2nd West. The pace felt slow, and I was already upfront. Shin was right with me. There was a headwind, or possibly just a cross-wind on 2nd West. I saw Ted on his bike up ahead, and figured I'd just pull up and get right behind him. So I did make a bit of a surge and caught up at around 0.5 mark. Shin fell back a bit, but then caught up once I had eased off the pace. We already had nobody with us.

Made a turn on 800 North and headed towards the Provo River Trail. The head wind picked up, I think now this was a true headwind. We went through the first mile in 5:24, which had a net elevation gain of 43 feet. Good, hope not too good.

After about half a mile we finally got off 800 North on the Provo River Trail, finally no headwind. Ted on his bike, I am right on his back wheel, and Shin right on my heels. Second mile in 5:23, net elevation drop of 30 feet.

The third mile almost entirely overlapped the course I run almost every day. Lots of turns and going under bridges, ups and downs. Knowing that we were approaching a nasty headwind section I made a couple of moves on the under the bridge micro-downhills to gap Shin, but he would always close. That is one difference between an American and Japanese runner I noticed. The American will do everything he can to not reveal any signs of weakness until he just cannot hide it anymore. The Japanese runners I've raced completely ignored my moves, let me gap them, and then gradually closed the gap. They also make a lot of noises that may trick you into thinking they are struggling a lot when in fact they may still have a lot of juice left. We got off the trail and turned on Geneva Road heading north. Our third mile had a net drop of 16 feet, and we did it in 5:21. 16:08 at 3 miles, 16:43 at the 5 K.

We turned on the Boat Harbor Drive. Now the fun starts. We are directly against the headwind. Missed mile marker 4. 27:24 at 5 miles, 2 miles in 11:36, 5:38 average. Net elevation drop of 43 feet over those 2 miles. A very nice gradual drop. Too bad we could not make good use of it.

More headwind fun after that for about another quarter mile. It seemed like it gradually picked up as we got closer to the Utah Lake. I am starting to not feel super-snappy. I can tell Shin is getting a bit antsy to go, but waiting for the headwind to be over. We turn off the Boat Harbor Drive on the Provo River Trail, and Shin quickly shifts gears and picks it up to about 5:15 pace. No response from me, I just do not have it after over 2 miles of fighting the headwind. He is gapping me as if I were standing still. Ted went with him for a while, then figured that since he already had a guy on a scooter with him, he could wait for me to catch up and start yelling at me.

I am now getting a lecture from Ted on mental toughness. I've heard those lectures before, but they were directed at his son James while we were pacing him. And now I am getting the grown-up male version of it as well. Clean language, but tough words. At first I just wanted to ignore it but after a couple of minutes I realized that I could either ignore it and run 20-30 seconds slower, or I could obey everything he tells me to do and run 20-30 seconds faster. So I decided to do the latter.

6 miles in 33:04, ouch, 5:40 mile. Elevation gain of 13 feet.

While we ran into a headwind on an open section, now that we had the tailwind the Murphy's Law made it so that we had a tree cover. So we were not getting very much of it, and to make things worse, with the trail being windy we were getting a mild cross-wind on some sections.

At 6.8 the course overlapped a bit with the earlier section around mile 4, and it just happened that James and Lybi reached that particular point at the same time I did. So I got some cheering from them.

Missed mile marker 7. Watching Shin gradually open the gap. Getting a continuous pep-talk from Ted, and trying to respond to it. We got off the trail and headed south on Geneva road. Soon mile marker 8 came, 44:24, 11:20 for the last 2 miles, net elevation gain of 15 feet in 2 miles.

With some friendly cross wind and tail wind, a slight downhill, and some strong encouragement from Ted, was able to regroup on the next mile and hit it in 5:27, 49:51 at 9 miles, 21 seconds behind the 5:30 guy. The mile had 15 feet of elevation loss.

Mile 10 had some cross-wind and a net drop of 2 feet, but it first dropped 10 feet, and then gained 8. I did miss the mark though. Mile 11 was similar to mile 10 wind-wise, but had a net elevation gain of 5 feet with the initial climb of 10 feet, followed by a drop of 5 feet. 1:01:05 at 11 miles, 11:14 for the next 2, 5:30 guy now has 35 seconds.

Mile 12 was the toughest mile of the race. What made it tough was running into a headwind on University Avenue up the railroad overpass. The elevation data from MapMyRun.Com shows a gain of 30 feet, but looking at the actual location of mile 12, it was right on top of the bridge, while MapMyRun.Com shows further climb after mile 12. And the whole length of the course comes out to 13.24. So I assume MapMyRun data is about 0.1 off the certification. This would make the elevation gain to be 40 feet. I ran that mile in 5:59 and was glad it was over when we started going down the bridge.

Mile 13 had a lot of turns, headwind for about 0.5, and net gain of about 23 feet in spite of the quick drop of 10 feet in the first 0.1. Caught a split at the 20 K - 1:09:29. That would make it 52:46 for the 15 K from 5 K to 20 K, acceptable for the conditions and the course. I managed a 5:42 for mile 13, 1:12:46 at 13 miles. Tried to pick it up on the last 0.11, but did not have much of a kick due to fatigue and the last of competition nearby - 32 seconds. Got 1:13:18 on my watch, 1:13:19 officially.

Afterwards, Ted gave me the greatest compliment - "1:13 is not that bad for that wind!". That was exactly what I needed to hear. It means something to me because I know that Ted does not tell you you did a good job when you did not. He'll say: "What happened, were you sick, did you have a cold, did you have a stomach flu, or are you overtrained?" when you do not run the time that he expected you to run.

Since James could run with Lybi only part way due to his recent knee issues, we had planned the operation "Lybi relay". Adam paced her for the first 3 miles, then ran his regular pace the rest of the way passing people and advertising for the blog. James paced her to 8 miles from there, then drove to meet me on Center street as I ran in his direction after the race, picked me up, and took me to a little bit past mile 9 from where I paced Lybi to the finish. I had several concerns for her - slowing down to slower than 12:00 half way through the race due to a severe fuel crash, muscle fatigue, or injury, and how she was going to handle mile 12 with the overpass and the headwind. She performed in the top 20% of the expectation range of what might possibly happen. Her slowest mile was 10:46 (the notorious mile 12), last 5 K in 30:49, 9:54 average, and total time was 2:03:17, very good result for the first half marathon on a tough course on a windy day and with the lack of training recently.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:15, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:02, and 2 with Benjamin in 15:24.

Crocs - 328.98 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From jtshad on Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 08:44:34

Great job on the second place finish on a windy race day!

From Jon on Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 10:03:43

Nice job. This should give you some good motivation to go beat him next year! That, and the get Shin to join the blog!

From Kim on Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 11:11:26

Ready for the rest of the story....

From Pat on Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 17:10:13

Sasha

Great race considering the conditions. I passed you on the warm-up and wanted to thank you for your thoughts on the book "Brain training for Runners" It's been a great find and I agree one of the read's on running in my experience. Great race!

From air darkhorse on Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 17:52:47

Sasha, You are definitely dedicated but when is your BIG race? I saw no taper this week and yet you still ran really well. This makes me wonder. Are saving it for Ogden or Des News?

From Paul Petersen on Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 17:40:56

1:13 is not bad for that wind.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 18:05:27

Steve - probably Ogden. I'll probably do 120/100 taper for Salt Lake, and 100/70 for Ogden.

From Lybi on Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 01:47:11

Oh. Dang, I liked the old numbers I had for the race better. What was my Garmin thinking? And did I actually run slower than 12:00 pace, or were you just saying that COULD have happened? Thanks for the help!

Anyway, great job on a tough race day. It's very interesting to hear about you getting paced by Ted. Personally, I'm glad you didn't yell at me...very much (and only when I really needed it).

PS, if it is not below 100 miles a week, it just can not be considered a taper, by definition.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Good sleep. Listened to General Conference. Went on a walk with the kids. Took a nap.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.500.000.600.0020.10

A.M. Started with 4 with Hyrum in 35:33. He needs volunteers for the Utah Valley Marathon on April 12th. Call him 472-7866 if you would like to help. Then continued with 11.1 more at around 7:30 pace until it started hailing. Then picked it up to 5:30 for a quarter (1:22). It stopped hailing. I backed down to 7:30. Then it started hailing again. I began to wish I had not backed down, I would have already been home. Picked it up, ran the last 0.35 at 5:20 pace, timed the last quarter in 1:20. 1:56:56 for 15.1.

Crocs - 344.08 miles.

P.M. 2 miles with Benjamin in 16:14, then 3 more pushing Joseph in the stroller to Albertsons, and then a long detour back home to make the distance goal.

Crocs - 349.09 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From adam on Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 18:38:15

where's a good 1% hill to do 200m repeats on nearby? I would like to do this tomorrow. How many should I look at doing, and at around what kind of pace?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:29:01

The best hill in the 1 mile radius of your house is the one that leads from the roundabout on 820 North to Grandview. Do about 6 at a mile race pace effort to start with.

From Benn on Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:33:28

they make 1% hills? lol

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.360.000.750.0020.11

A.M. 15.11 in 1:56:34. First 12.11 with Jeff and Josse. Did my standard post-VPB speedwork. 0.25 in 1:23, 0.1875 in 59, and 0.3125 in 1:40, total of 0.75 of unplanned tempo running.

Crocs - 364.20 miles.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 14:22. A devil got into him, and he made me run my fastest continuous mile of the day in 6:56. Ran 3 more in 22:21.

Crocs - 369.20 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 12:07:15

How are the Crocs feeling after close to 400 miles? You should do a experience and run those Crocs in the Salt Lake Marathon.

(just kidding). Nice workout Sasha as always.

From Andy on Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 12:53:35

I am running UVM this weekend and was thinking that could give my jacket to Josse or Hyrum and I can pick it up from them. Thanks,Andy

From Lybi on Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 23:23:38

Sasha, I have a little off-topic thought. Regarding looking at your hands when learning your piano music...looking at your hands is like tapering for a race. If the individual piece is the priority, then it is okay. If the priority is to learn to read music better, then try not to look. So it's okay to taper, but not all the time. Comprende? This is why I usually have my students work on one challenging piece, and several easier pieces at the same time. It's kind of like a runner that races every weekend, but only tapers 3 or 4 times a year.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.900.000.000.2020.10

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff in 1:19:55 at 5:10 AM. Aerobic hibernation. The Crocs have made past the 50 additional miles demise point predicted by Josse on Sunday. Still no hole. And they weigh only 3.9 ounces. Vibram Five Fingers weigh 6.2!

Crocs - 379.3 miles.

P.M. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:56, 0.5 more with Benjamin in 3:42 (16:38 at 2 miles), 1 with Julia in 10:40, and 7 mostly alone (a couple of miles with Derek who I found on the trail running home from work) in 50:56. Did a couple of pickups.

Crocs - 389.3 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From Bonnie on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 16:51:42

hi Sasha, I was thinking about one of the discussions from your blog last night - the medical insurance one (I laughed at the tie with 5K time - I would hate that since I would have to pay more, not necessarily because I don't work hard, but I suspect I really don't have any talent). This our month to change providers if we would like and I learned last night that the U actually gives us up to $40/month off of our premium if we belong to a program that keeps track of health indicators (cholesterol, HDL, etc.). When I was at Vanderbilt they did this too ...

On the one hand it is great that more employers are doing this, on the other hand it doesn't help those of you that don't have the benefit of large company policies (which means that none of us pay more as we get older since employers absorb these types of costs).

Anyway - I like your aerobic hibernation idea - I think this is why you can function at such a high level for so much of the time!

Bonnie

From josse on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 16:55:05

Ok, ok another 75 miles.

From Jon on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 17:05:23

Josse, with those additional 75 miles, the crocs are approaching the 500 mile mark where many people retire normal running shoes. The question is if Sasha will run 5000 miles on the crocs like he does on some of his shoes.

From josse on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 17:07:38

He better get out the shoe goo if he does.

From Scott Zincone on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 01:15:52

Economically speaking, how much money per mile are the Crocs so far?

From Lybi on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 01:34:13

Those crocs weigh less and less after each long run, I'm sure.

Scott, wouldn't it just be about a penny per mile? If they make it to 500 miles it will be exact.

An $80 pair of shoes that were retired after 400 miles would be $.20 a mile. 20X more expensive! But an $80 pair that lasts 4,000 miles is only $.02 a mile, right? So the crocs are cheaper by about half.

From Scott Zincone on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 01:40:32

From what I have read of Sasha's high mileage on a pair of shoes, he will probably get to 1000 on these Crocs. This reminds me of that chewing gum commercial where the flavor lasts so long nobody ever buys anymore and they go out of business unless somebody chews a second piece.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.350.000.000.7520.10

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Brad. We did our regular hibernation run, except Jeff wanted to shake his legs at 5 K race pace since we are running one this Saturday (Utah Valley). Well, we got carried away on those. I think Jeff just wanted to burn a hole in my Crocs. Our first quarter was 69 instead of planned 75. Our second was 67. On the third one a devil got into Jeff and he hit the first 200 in 31. As if that was not fast enough, he sped up and dropped me. I caught a split of 46 at 300 and complacently eased off to finish in 64. Jeff ended up with 59!

Dropped Jeff off at 10.1, dropped Brad off at 12.1. Ran another 3 miles. Total time for 15.1 was 1:56:48.

Crocs - 404.3 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:20, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:20, 0.5 more with Benjamin in 3:36, and 2 more alone in 15:22.

Crocs - 409.3 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From JohnK on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 19:39:08

I can't believe the Crocs have held up for you so well, 400+ miles and day after day. Have you thought of contacting the manufacturer and doing some paid advertising? I'm serious! I've never owned a pair so don't know what they're like but I'm pretty curious now. What particular model do you have? Do you wear socks with them?

From josse on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 19:54:41

Sasha I don't like the new setup for the discussion board. It is very hard on the eyes. I would strongly advise to change it back.

From Lybi's Mom on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 21:24:13

Hey Sasha. What's with the width of the comment section of Lybi's blog. It was hard to find it because it was all off the screen. Can you fix it?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 22:37:54

I can only fix it by removing Kerry's comment, which has a long URL. This is not a new setup. This is the only way most browsers would be willing to display that type of text.

From Lybi's Mom on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 22:46:00

I actually just figured it out myself. I hadn't noticed the long, unbreakable name thing. Oh well. I had to call her to find the comments. I think I will call her and suggest she put a statement in her blogging to tell that you have to scroll sideways to find the comments.

From Lybi's Mom on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 22:50:32

When I was ending blogging that last comment I happened to notice the little ad things the browser puts on. It was definitely not family friendly. You probably don't have any choice over that. Do you have the ability to complain to them?

From Hayden on Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 23:24:07

Hey this is Running Warrior, i have an injury right now, you can check it out on my blog. If you have any advise im open to anything for a fast and good recovery.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 09:47:28

John - I have actually contacted Crocs (even though my Crocs are not real Crocs, they are No Boundaries, a generic Walmart brand, but I figured I'd have better luck with Crocs than with Walmart), and the only thing I've gotten from them is an e-mail from CSR saying she was forwarding it to the right person.

Hayden - to understand why you got injured double-check the Top Ten Training Mistakes list (link at the top), specifically the stuff about pushing the pace on easy runs and anaerobic speedwork without proper aerobic conditioning. I realize unfortunately being on a high school team you may not have a lot of choice on the latter, but I would still talk to your coach about it. I can talk to him as well if you want me to. On the former (pushing the pace on easy runs), it is all under your control.

To recover from the injury run easy pace (with the girls, if they cannot keep it up, it is too fast) until you feel no pain, and for another week after that. Keep the mileage, though. No less than 8 miles a day unless the pain is getting worse even at a slow pace.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. Jeff was sick this morning with a cold. So I ran alone. Took it easy. Ran about 7:20 - 7:30 pace for 12.5 miles. Then a biker with a dog was catching up to me, and I began to wonder how fast I would have to run for them not to pass me. Turned out that about 6:50 pace was enough to hold them off, and then they stopped anyway. But I was already in gear, and figured since I had only 2 miles left, I'd be OK. So I just ran that pace to the end. 1:49:58 for 15.1. The Crocs are on the verge of developing a hole, there is a small crack on the right one, but I cannot yet feel the asphalt.

Crocs - 424.4 miles.

P.M. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:16. 3.5 with Jeff later in 27:40.

Crocs - 429.4 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Superfly on Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 14:32:29

Ironically there is a full page ad in Runners World this month for Croc's. I think you might be on to something here Sasha. You may be able to market them to runners for running...

From wheakory on Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 00:20:48

I think its amazing how many miles you've put on the Crocs. Nice work today and good luck on the race tomorrow.

Race: Utah Valley 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:16:20, Place overall: 2
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.793.000.003.1120.90

A.M. Woke up this morning at 3:00 AM to go to the bathroom and then could not fall   asleep. Oddly enough was worried about Steve getting lost on the course again and getting a bummer instead of $1000. After about an hour of wondering I finally decided to call Hyrum (figuring he was up setting up the course anyway) and make sure everything is OK. Hyrum reassured me everything was fine, but by then I was wound up enough that I could not fall back asleep.

Had a bit of an adventure at the start with Jeff not realizing the race was chip-timed and not bringing the chip. We finally got his chip, but that gave us only 0.5 warmup in 27 F weather. With me not getting enough sleep, Jeff fighting the cold, and neither one of us getting a good warmup for such a short race it was lame racing the lame. So we did our best under the circumstances.

Traded leads every minute through the first mile, then I took my lead and Jeff fell back. Caught 4:39 split at 24 mile marker of the marathon, which is 5:14 pace. Got 9:55 at mile 25 marker, 5:16. With about 0.5 to go Jeff made a strong move, and caught, and passed me. I latched on to him, but then he started the kick and gapped me. 15:14 at mile marker 26, 5:19. I closed a bit half way through, but not enough, and then he opened up what I closed again. We ended up 1-2, Jeff 16:19.7, me 16:20.9. The course was flat, the last 5 K of the marathon. I would say the time was acceptable for the lack of sleep, the cold weather, and the lack of warm-up.

Paced Benjamin. He ended up with 21:32.2 running in Crocs, a PR by 28 seconds. Then drove to around mile 18 and paced Steve from there. Steve won with 2:37:08 with a gap of over 19 minutes in spite of having a cold. Then paced Andy, he got a decent time for a training run - 3:02. Then paced Josse, and watched her move into the lead on the last mile performing the proverbial lamb sacrifice as she moved into big money and left her opponent with none. Then ran some more with Jeff back to where we left our cars. Ended up with about 18.4 miles total.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:20, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:04.

Crocs - 432.9 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 5.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 5.00
Comments
From air dark horse on Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 10:21:13

Hey, thanks again for towing me home to the finish. Considering where you started it definitely must given you some miles today.

From Christi on Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 11:50:07

Wow- considering I ran a 5k the same day, I am blown away by your time! Congrats on the 2nd place- awesome!

From josse t on Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 22:37:18

Thank you for the extra push at the end of the marathon. You do know how to make someone mad enough to want to run faster. Really it was great and thanks for the teaching along the way. Close race for the two of you.

From barry on Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 08:55:07

I have a question for you. I am running a half-marathon this Saturday, how much should I cut back on my mileage?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 12:37:48

Barry - I would actually increase it or at the very least keep it the same. You have been running only 20-40 miles a week. At this volume, cut back does not produce the effect you would expect from a taper. Rather, you just lose fitness. I would, however, ease off on your pace, not just this week, but in general. Try running more mileage at no faster than 8:00 pace. You gain absolutely nothing from running at your 10 K - half marathon race pace more often than a couple of times a week. If you do it daily, it overloads the nervous system and/or beats up your muscles, bones, joints, and ligaments. So that puts a cap on how far you can run each day, which in turn puts a cap on how much you can develop your aerobic endurance, which develops much more in proportion to distance than in proportion to speed. I think if you developed it properly you could run 1:18 half marathon, maybe even faster.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Made up on lost sleep. We had a Stake Conference. A couple of interesting moments. First, there is a Latino brother on our High Council whose first name is Angel, and whose middle name in Moroni. So while they were sustaining the officers, they went through the entire High Council, and finally got to him. Every member of the High Council stood up as his name was being announced. Finally they got to Angel Moroni, and to make things more interesting, for one reason or another he could not be there, so his seat was empty.

Then there was a talk on the Articles of Faith. A story was mentioned (probably from around 40 years ago) of how a man was traveling on a bus from New York to San Francisco, and in Salt Lake City a little girl sat right next to him. He saw a sign on the highway that said "Visit the Mormon Sunday School", and asked the girl to tell her what Mormons believed. She recited all 13 articles of faith, and discussed each one. The man was impressed, and looked up the missionaries at his first opportunity. He ended up getting baptized.

I thought about how the times have changed. The girl reminded me of my daughter Jenny. First, I would not trust Jenny to go alone on a bus even for a short trip, and, unfortunately, if for some reason she had to and there was no other alternative, I would definitely tell her not to talk to any men. Second, when I drove on I-80 from SLC to San Francisco a couple of years ago I do not recall seeing signs inviting you to visit the Mormon Sunday School. Instead, there are plenty of signs inviting you to gamble in Wendover, followed by several signs later on once you pass Wendover telling you not to pick up hitchhikers because you are near a correctional facility. Ironically, the correctional facility is located in a place called Independence Valley.  

Later in the evening we went to Jeff and Kimia's house for dinner. After dinner we found some good use for his wedding present - Cooties, which is a game for children ages 3-6 where you have to assemble strange insect-looking six-legged creatures. I thought this would be a great manual dexterity/eye-hand coordination test. So we tested everybody on the task of attaching all 6 legs. Results:

Jeff - 9.96 seconds - tried many times, most of the time was around 11 seconds.

Kimia - 12.1 on the second try

Sarah - 14.? on the first and only try

me - 14.65 on my best attempt. I've tried many times, and most of the time got 18.

Benjamin - 15.2 in his best attempt. In all others he got too nervous and was taking longer than 20 seconds.

I would be interested to see what others can do. 


Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 11.00
Comments
From Jon on Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 15:30:01

It doesn't look like you should petition for a reduction in health care insurance costs based on dexterity...

From Lybi on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 10:19:11

Funny! Brother Angel Moroni...wow, some parents are so brave. I met a lady who had always wanted to name her 1st daughter "Liberty," but then she married a guy with the last name "Bell."

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.801.000.000.5020.30

A.M. 15.1 alone in 1:48:03. Did 8x100 strides, and a pickup for a mile in 5:53. I did the strides because I remembered it would be a good idea. The mile pickup was accidental. I saw a lady riding a bike in front of me, and decided I wanted to pass her. Then I did not want her to pass me back, so I sped up. Then I decided to hold the pace for the whole mile.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:28, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:24, 2 with Benjamin in 17:21, and 0.7 alone in 5:15. Pushed Jacob in the single stroller when I ran with Jenny and Benjamin.

Crocs - 453.2 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.200.250.000.0020.45

A.M. Ran 15 in 1:57:56. First 8 with Brad and Josse. Did 0.25 in 1:27 on a post-VPB chase. The right Croc now officially has a hole. About 2mm wide. Still in runnable condition, though.

Crocs - 468.2 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:56, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:16, 2 with Benjamin in 15:23, 0.7 alone in 4:49, and also ran to the ESL class at the church and back because it was cold. Saw a small leaf-burning fire on the other side of the Provo River that apparently got out of control. They had to call the firefighters.

Crocs - 473.65 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Comments
From Jon on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 14:48:05

They still lasted almost 500 miles. Did you wear them for anything other than running?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 14:53:54

Yes, I used them as regular shoes as well.

From Jon on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 14:58:50

So they probably lasted more than 500 miles- not too shaby.

From josse on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 15:13:45

After looking at them today I really thought they would make it 500 miles without a hole. Maybe it was all that bounding and sprinting.

From wheakory on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 17:44:17

Sasha what have you noticed as far as performance with Crocs vs racing flats.

What type of effort could you have performance wise in Crocs if you were to run a marathon?

My concern would be the support they would have on a lot of turning in a course, but maybe there fine. I think you should be a new pair and run them in SLC.

From Karl on Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 23:52:40

I know I need to keep up the mileage, but I got a bad cold and I didn't want this year to end up like last year so I've got to work back into it. Have any advice on how to do that safely?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 15:38:05

Karl - when increasing the mileage you have to be very careful in order to avoid injury/overtraining. You must run slow. Nothing is too slow. Running with girls at 8:30 pace is not too slow. Running 6:30 pace is too fast. 7:30 is good, 7:40 better. You must get enough sleep and eat right. Track speedwork greatly interferes with your ability to safely and productively increase your mileage. You may not have a lot of choice in this area being on a high school team - high school coaches are addicted to speedwork. Do what you can to minimize the damage. Most high school runners will slack everywhere else except a track workout. That is backwards. They would do a lot better if they slacked in the track workout, and saved the effort for extending their easy runs, not skipping them to begin with, eating right, and getting to bed on time.

You should up your mileage to about 60 a week, and hold it there for 6 months. Do not cut back when racing unless it is something very very important. After that you might be ready to go up to 70-80 if 60 does not make you feel tired. If it does, go through the checklist of training mistakes - is it really a consistent 60, or is sometimes 40, or even worse, 20, are the runs easy enough, do you sleep enough, do you get to bed early enough, do you eat right, are you pushing yourself too hard in the track workouts?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.300.000.000.0015.30

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff and Josse in 1:22:57. Had some interesting conversations. Discussed potty training since Joseph started his yesterday and was very successful. Then discussed the importance of mothers. A home without a mother is like an ice hockey team without a goalee. Then discussed when it is appropriate to do speed work. I told Josse she should not do any until she breaks 1:26 in a non-aided half in Utah, and that Michelle should not do any until she breaks 1:20. The logic is that both have plenty of natural speed to do it, and if they are not doing it they are being held back by the lack of aerobic endurance rather than the lack of speed.

Crocs - 483.75 miles. The hole on the right shoe is up to about 4mm. It is about under the attachment point of the big toe. Still runnable, I could not even tell there was a hole.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:08, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:15, 2 with Benjamin and Jared in 17:12, 0.7 alone in 4:48.

Crocs - 488.95 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Adam RW on Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 22:26:17

Sasha, I don't think this is fair. If you are racing in those crocs Saturday you will need to carry some weights. The aid that you will get from the weight difference is just not fair to the rest of us mere mortals, especially now with some of the bottom missing :)

From air dark horse on Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 22:48:29

Interesting analogy on the goalee statement... Anyway, I left you an e-mail on a couple of things. And by the way, are you really going to race in Crocs?

From Walter on Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 23:24:54

Hey whats up my man!? I wanted to give you a tip I heard from my brother with potty training his boys. He put cheerios in the toilet and told them to try and sink them. It really worked good and since I have all girls all i have to worry about is them falling in the toilet. Keep up the good work buddy! See ya

From Benn on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:04:48

I was telling everyone at work about Sasha the Crocs runner, and you've achieved superstardom - borderline superhero status among the local Borders employees. We even spent about an hour designing a whole plot for CrocMan. haha. It'll be sweet if the one guy can design a cartoon sketch of it, because he's a comic book artist and also works for Disney. Have you contacted the company yet? For all you know they could sign you onto the wear and tear test team, and send you free $40.00 Crocs for life! You know, like if you get a million miles on a car sometimes they buy you a new one for free? :)

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 13:29:55

While I like running in Crocs, I would not race in them without a pre-arranged compensation because they may slow me done should the race hit a rough spot. I can go normal pace on a smooth surface but my feet are still too tender to go on rough asphalt with small rocks sticking out without caution. I have contacted Crocs, but have not gotten anything except the note that the CSR was forwarding my message to the appropriate person. If I were to sign a deal with Crocs, I would want something more than just a life time supply. I would go for something like $100 cash for every race I win in them + the entry fee covered for every race run in Crocs where I cannot get a comp. If I got a deal like that, my Saturday long runs would always include a 5 K tempo, and sometimes even 2 or 3!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.001.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Ran the first 2 with Ted and Jeff. Then 6 more with Jeff. Decided to freshen up my sense of pace for the race on Saturday. Ran a mile at a conservative marathon pace in 5:42. Earlier Jeff and I were talking about the lazy girls on his brother's cross-country team that go out for 0.5 until they are out of sight of the coach, and then sit in the bushes for the remainder of the run. No wonder high-school coaches overdo on speedwork. They are probably afraid there students would do nothing otherwise. So I was feeling just like those girls at the start of the tempo mile and we ran the first 200 of it at 6:00 pace. Then we got into a good rhythm, but it still felt easier than I expected for the conditions - it was about 27 degrees and I was wearing pants and a jacket. Total time for 8 miles was 1:01:02.

Crocs - 496.95 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:42, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:36, and 2.5 alone in 18:30.

Crocs - 501.95 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Scott Zincone on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 15:15:30

We had some girls on my high school team like that as well. Most of the boys were good about practicing, but we did have some days we played more than ran.

I only wish I had the running discipline back then like some of the other teenagers on this blog do now. I may have been all-state if I had worked harder.

From James W on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 15:18:04

You're not planning on wearing the crocs for the marathon, are you?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 15:24:22

If somebody gave me $500 I would. I am figuring I would race slightly better in my racing flats, and "slightly better" could possibly be worth $500. I have raced a marathon in a pair of beat-up racing flats that had a hole at the start before, though.

From josse on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 18:59:51

Ya but didn't you get a rock in your shoe from the hole?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 19:10:04

Yes, but it did not bother me very much. I could put up it for $500.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
5.800.000.000.005.80

A.M. 1 with Julia in 9:41, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:07. She PR'ed on the last mile of it with the time of 7:30. Then 2 with Benjamin in 15:26. SLC marathon tomorrow.

Crocs - 506.45 miles.

P.M. Jogged from the car to the SLC marathon expo, back to re-park it, an back from re-parking it. It was windy.

Crocs - 507.75 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From josse on Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 13:17:55

Good luck tomorrow. Looks like the crocs made it to the 500 mark!

From Little Bad Legs on Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 13:23:45

Good luck in the marathon!

From Paul on Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 15:39:49

Best of luck!

Does Crocs make a racing flat?

From Brent on Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 21:23:16

Sasha, best to you on race day

Stay Kool, B of BS Rools out

From Lybi on Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 23:40:08

Since I won't be there to cheer for you...

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SASHA!

GO! GO! GO!

B I N G O your way to victory, coach!

Race: Salt Lake Marathon (26.22 Miles) 02:34:07, Place overall: 6
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
4.8026.220.000.0031.02

A.M. Executive summary: Salt Lake Marathon, 2:34:07, 6th pace. Windy day, slow times. Overloaded field, got outclassed into the no money land. On the positive site, collected nice LDR circuit points for being first in the circuit, and for the first time in my life (out of 43 marathons) ran a negative split on a non-St. George course. Talk about being a slow learner.

Details: Stayed with Adam and his family the night before. That made it very nice for getting to the start as he lives right next to it. Met up with Kory, and Dave Holt at the start. A pack of Kenyans/Ethiopians at the start, Shin Nozaki, Alexander Thomas, Matt Harmer. Trouble, but hopefully there will be enough Kenyan DNF's / jog-ins to make top 5. In all truth, though, I need to work on being fit to race those guys honestly, being able to beat them in the half marathon to begin with, rather than counting them at the start and hoping enough are going to have a bad day.

Adam made a nice map of the Salt Lake City Marathon on the Course Tool, so when I say the mile was supposed to be X it means based on 2:30 pace projection and the elevation profile the Course Tool thought this how fast I was supposed to run it.

We started with the Star Spangled Banner. Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave? You bet, it was waving quite a bit today in the wind, you could see it all over. I wish they had sung the second verse as well, it would have been even better:

What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?


Half and full marathon started together, so that was nice. Relaxed through the downhill first mile with mild headwind in 5:49 (target 5:31). Perhaps too much relaxation. Adam and Kory fell back a bit. I motioned to them to catch up, but they thought the pace was too fast. So I made a move and caught up to the Kenyans accompanied by some half-marathon runners. Next mile was 5:39, it was into a more significant headwind, but not a complete killer (target 5:44) . On the third mile the Kenyans were done with the warmup. Nate Hornok, who was running the half at first went with them, the later came back to me. The headwind was the same as in mile 2. Got 5:49, target 6:02. Good, lets hope not too good.

On the fourth mile we turned on 21st south and headed down a nice 4-5% grade. I passed Nate and did not care. Finally no headwind, but not for long. So I figured I'd make up some time. Got 5:04, target 5:11. Eased off on the next mile, Nate caught up to me, we chatted a bit, I sat on him for a quarter or so. Then at around 4.6 it was time to say goodbye, it was half-marathon turnaround point. So I was left alone. Could see Alexander Thomas up ahead. A little further Shin and a Kenyan that fell off the lead pack. That is a good sign for me. Kenyans, the type that come to the caliber of Salt Lake Marathon races usually hang on with the leaders until they literally cannot go any further at that pace. Next mile in 5:31, projected 5:22. Why so slow? But the split at 5 was 27:53, only a second slower than 2:30:00 projection.

Hit the Sugarhouse loop. This has been one of my least favorite parts of the course. Today it ended up being my favorite part of the stretch between 5 and 13 miles. Next favorite was the climb on Keller Lane between miles 8 and 9. The reason being not that all of a sudden I've become a terrific hill runner. Rather, those were the only sections on that stretch that did not have headwind today.

Mile 6 in 6:01, target 6:05. Encouraging. And then the wind got stronger. Do not remember my splits on the next few miles, but I got to 9 in 52:24, losing to 25 seconds to 2:30 projection. I believe I gained a couple of seconds on the Keller Lane mile (from 8 to 9). Mile 10 was supposed to be 5:37. Good luck with that headwind, only 5:57, 58:21 at 10 miles, last 5 in 30:28. Followed by a 5:59 for mile 11 that was supposed to be 5:25! Either the headwind picked up on that mile or I wore myself out trying too hard on mile 10.

No worries, though. I had already realized that 2:30 ideal conditions effort today would not result in a 2:30 time today, and not just for me, but for everybody else as well, and I was going by effort while making a mental note of what kind of split that effort produced rather than stressing out about not hitting a target split.

Mile 12 was 6:01 vs target of 5:49. Mile 13 6:25 vs target of 6:08. That is where we got the full gamut of adversity - headwind + uphill. 1:16:46 at 13 miles, 1:17:25 at half-way. The 2:30 guy put a good 1:34 on me on that stretch between 5 miles and the half.

No more headwind, tailwind all the way back, or at least so I thought. On mile 14 just a cross-wind, but it feels so nice to be running downhill and with no headwind. 5:42 on the next mile, target 5:36. Not bad considering I had to shift gears from 6:25 pace earlier. Next mile in 5:36, target 5:25, followed by 5:34 right on target. I think the tailwind helped on this one finally. The weather started getting uncomfortably warmer. Mile 17 was 5:49, target 5:33. I think that is where the subtle fatigue of battling the wind in the earlier miles started to catch up to me in combination with a temperature that was not that warm (maybe 65 degrees), but being not used to it from the winter training took its toll. Do not recall my splits in the next 3 miles, but I got to 20 in 1:56:41, 2:15 behind the 2:30 guy. Passed a Kenyan, and then Alexander Thomas.

Discovered a new way of fighting the fatigue. Loud grunts. Found them to be very effective. Ran the next 5 K in 18:43, and incidentally the last one in 18:43 as well. Worked my way through a crowd of half-marathoners. Saw Ryan Gurr. He told me I was in 7th place, and gave me the update on who was ahead and how they were doing. Not much hope. However, I anticipated that the weakest Kenyan/Ethiopian in that pack will either DNF or jog in, but only one. And sure enough, with about 1.5 to go I see him walking. Suzanna Thomas was there on a bike and yelled that I am now 6th or maybe 5th. So this Kenyan (his name is Festus Kioko), heard that, caught up to me and then pulled ahead. I got right on his tail, and I got really mad. I decided I'd sit on him, and then we'd duke it out in the kick, and he would have to work to beat me. Shortly afterwards he either remembered that there were 5 guys already ahead or for some other reason decided the fight was not worth it, and went back to the jog-in/walk-in mode.

2:34:07 at the finish, 1:17:25 first half, 1:16:42. Genna Tufa won in a very close race in 2:23:10. Race results are available at http://racecenter.com/.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:57, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:13, then 1 more with Benjamin in 7:43, which gave him 20:56 for 2.5. Toyed with the idea of running another 4 to repeat  Clyde's feat of running the same number of miles as the same number of years I was going to turn on Monday, but my body told me 31 miles for the day would be plenty, and I decided that being more fit for Ogden and other races was more important than hitting a magic number in training. So we can say that I made it to 31 with 26 at marathon pace, and then my age got to me :-)

Night Sleep Time: 7.83Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.83
Comments
From Hayden on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 18:11:19

Great job on the Marathon man. Way to represent the State of Utah. Hey thanks for the advise on the quad it helped me this week alot and i am almost right back up their.

From josse on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 18:12:39

I think all runners are slow learners. And when we do learn we forget the next day;) Great job!

From sarah on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 18:50:38

Good job Honey...you are my hero!

From Brent on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 19:33:10

Sasha, I knew the course would be trouble for the marathon runners, I did the bike tour. The wind was pretty darn tough. Great effort on a tough day. You always have such a strong spirit.

Stay Kool, B of BS Rools out

From Paul Petersen on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 19:51:35

Nice job. I used loud grunts at Ogden and St. George last year, it is very effective. It's even better when combined with dumping cold water down your neck.

From Christi on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:03:28

Great job Sasha! Tough wind today. I saw a quick post race interview from you on the 5pm news,(channel 2, CBS I believe)- you'll have to watch it tonight!

From Cody D on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:03:46

Nice Job Sasha! Top Local runner. Tough conditions today too.

From Tom on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:05:12

Great job Sasha. I'll have to remember the loud grunting trick next time.

From barry on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:17:43

Great Job on the race Sasha. Thank you for helping me with my running; I was able to take off thirteen minutes off my best half marathon.

From Lybi on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:26:28

Heroic effort, Sasha! Way to be the first American. And nice negative split!

Loud grunts, huh? I'll have to try that. I remember you tried to get me to make sounds in my race, but they all sounded so weak and pathetic to me they were draggin me down. A nice, hearty grunt would be much better I'm sure. :)

From Jon on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:44:17

Great job, Sasha- nice negative split in some windy conditions.

We'll start calling you Paul if you do too many loud grunts...

From Chad on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:50:53

Congratulations on the great finish. You looked very strong at mile 20.

From josse on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:53:45

I have used screaming before, if anything it make the person you are passing not want to come with you:)

From Kim on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 20:57:55

Great job Sasha! I wish the whole FRB community could have been there to cheer you into the finish line! You are an incredible runner and so nice to share all of your knowledge with all of us!

From Superfly on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 21:02:40

Good race Sasha. Your extra training is paying off with a strong run like this in the wind. Keep up the good work and I'll see you in Ogden in a few weeks.

From adamr on Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 23:26:57

Caught you and Adam on the news tonight. There were three or four clips of you running plus interview with you both. Catch you monday, 6:30 (schools gone, I'll be back much more), and way to tough this run out, especially with much of it on your own.

From Dale on Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:05:10

Excellent race. Glad you figured out how to run a negative split....now please teach me! Congrats.

From Michael on Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:16:20

Way to run Sasha, congrats on negative split, your toughness will get you ready for your next races

From Dave Holt on Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 11:45:26

Sasha, very good job. I think you made the smart move when you decided to close the gap on the leaders at the end of mile 2 - then it was just Matt H. and I a ways back and that's not where you needed to be.

From Adam RW- on Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 15:01:01

Great report and great race. It was nice conversing with you on Friday and I think we both implemented some of that discussion in our races.

From James on Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 16:02:55

Solid race! It was very windy yesterday, so a good time considering. Did you get anything special for being the first Utah runner?

From Lybi on Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:27:33

Happy Birthday, Sasha! Hope it is your BEST birthday ever. Here's to having a metabolic age of 12 for at least another decade!

From Christi on Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 13:10:59

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I think its cool that you're thinking about running 35 miles on your BD!

From James on Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 13:46:14

Wow 35! Happy Birthday! Now you are in the true elite age group for marathoners, what are you going to do about it?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Had to pick up my mom at the airport very late at night, so did not get a lot of sleep. My mom will be with us for the next month. She brought my training logs from 1986-87, I was 12 at the start and 14 at the end. They are all in Russian. I noticed a pattern. Good runs and races are recorded in very neat penmanship, while the entries for the bad ones look like chicken paw or physician's writing. I will enter the info a bit at a time in the next few months.

Conversation in the Primary after they announced Cub Scout Olympics. Scott (Benjamin's friend): Last year I won. Benjamin: That's because I was not there to beat you! Scott: I challenge you to a 50 yard dash! Benjamin: I challenge you to a 10 K! 

Night Sleep Time: 5.75Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 7.25
Comments
From Michael on Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 14:02:45

Interesting how postive results trigger postive thinking which even trigger good penmanship (your Russian running journals)

Good attitude for Benjamin challenging the othe rkid to a 10K - I dont think the other kid would know what he is in for against a kid with Benjamins running talents

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.100.000.000.0016.10

A.M. Started from my house with Daniel and Adam. Picked up Jeff at his house. Then ran on the trail. Daniel turned around half-way through, then Adam a couple of miles later. Jeff and I ran to the end of the trail and then back to my house. Then Jeff ran some more, I was done. 11.6 in 1:33:11. Got beat by the 8:00 guy, but I could not care less. Nice recovery run, had a good chat.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 10:28, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:24, 2 with Benjamin in 15:50.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From Seth Wold on Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 13:11:35

Way to go on the SLC marathon. You are the man Sasha.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.600.000.000.0016.60

A.M. 12.1 with Jeff and Josse in 1:34:57. Chatted the whole way and did not particularly care about the pace.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Jon on Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 21:35:26

It's good to see you taking it easy after the race.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.000.600.000.2015.80

A.M. 10.1 alone at 5:10 AM in 1:13:23. Started out slow, did not feel like breaking 8:00 by much for a while. Then sped up to around 7:20, with three miles to go to 6:40, and to 5:50 on the last 0.6.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:23. He had an assignment not to break 17:00 today and he somewhat reluctantly complied. Then did some bounds and sprints while my mom and the kids took pictures. I'll post those in a bit. Then 1 with Julia in 11:16, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:28 pushing Jacob (she closed with a 7:56 mile on a whim), and another mile on my own with Jacob in the stroller. Did a 100 meter bound, covered it in 44 steps. 

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.880.000.000.3815.26

A.M. Eventful run. Started out with Hyrum and Daniel. Ran to Jeff's house. Ran back to my house to drop Hyrum off. Saw cops on the trail, police car driving on the trail as well. Saw a truck parked on the 820 N bridge. Something was going on.

Then ran with Jeff and Daniel to BYU Smith's Fieldhouse to do a leg extension test. I did 200 on the left leg and 180 on the right. Jeff did 160 on the right and 180 on the left. Then we ran back in the direction of my house, dropped Daniel off and did 4x100 on the trail with full jogging rest. I wanted to do this workout because I noticed that I am able to push my top end speed a lot more when following somebody. So my reasoning was - whatever it is that keeps me from running fast is partially overcome when I follow somebody running fast. Not sure why, but it works, so I should try it.

On the first one I got 15.3 (standing start, 0.5-1% downhill grade), then another 15.3 from a standing start slightly rolling and into a mild headwind. Then 14.7 jogging start, rolling and into a slight headwind. The last one was 14.3 from a jogging start, slightly rolling and with a slight tailwind. Jeff put about a second on me on the last one in the last 50 meters or so.

After doing this I think I've figured out what is going on and I am very excited about it. Suppose I am following somebody at 5:00 pace until I can't. Well, I can run with bad form and by the time I know it I am too tired to do anything about it. I just cannot hold the pace anymore. I can even do the same all the way up to 4:00 pace. But if you make me go 3:50 pace, I can do it for a little bit, but not unless I fix the form. If I am running with bad form, I know immediately because I start falling behind. This critical training speed needs to be fast enough that it is impossible to run with bad form but slow enough that I can do it within my ability to auto-correct. The only way I can keep up the pace at all at that speed is by running with a better form. I do not need to know what it is that I am doing wrong as in not lifting up knee, not extending the leg, running too tight, etc. Nor do I need to worry about it. The desperation of being left behind and the lightening fast immediate feedback makes me intuitively find it and fix it.

A bird decided to make our run more eventful and did number two on Jeff. I asked him if he knew if birds did number one as well. He said yes, and he happened to know it from personal experience as well.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:49, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:16, 2 with Benjamin in 16:00 with 2x100 in the middle, first in 19.4, second in 17.8. This was Benjamin's PR in 100 meters. He also decided to run the last quarter fast, we did it in 1:33.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From tyler on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 15:37:05

Sorry, I was up late studying and slept through the alarm.

From James W on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 16:43:46

I thought the birds mixed the two together . . .

Interesting observation about the form - this makes sense that as you speed up, your form will become more and more efficient. It sounds like what might be helpful is to videotape yourself running at the faster pace so that you can consciously correct at a slower speed what is done intuitively at the higher speed. I am not sure that form corrections made at critical speeds will automatically carry over to slower speeds.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 17:35:09

I am currently of the opinion that conscious form correction is ineffective. Reasons:

a) I have never heard of anybody who has produced a data-backed claim to have gotten faster via conscious form correction.

b) In my own experience, whenever I tried to correct it consciously I could convince myself I was running with a better form but never saw any measurable results in terms of speed or economy.

c) It is next to impossible to know what you need to correct. Some defects are of purely visual nature. Others are affecting the speed but are invisible at least to a naked eye. Some of those might even be invisible to an instrumented eye as well.

I think for slower speeds I just need to learn to be more sensitive to the level of discomfort and have somebody pull me at the slower critical speed for longer.

From Cody on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 18:59:04

The only "form correction" I have been able to do is to focus on wasted up-down movement. Focus on a distant point and don't let it go up and down. Smooth form = more efficient = less wasted energy.

From Lulu on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 21:40:54

Sasha,

Birds only have one opening for expelling their wastes. Usually, the bird mixes #1 (white because of the uric acid) and #2 (black) in the same elimination through the cloaca or vent. If someone thinks a bird peed on them, probably they just got a "watery" dropping. Bird droppings are bird droppings. Those are my words of wisdom for today.

From Steve Hooper on Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 13:30:18

Group Run 15- 20 from the store at 6am Sat.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
21.750.200.000.0021.95

A.M. Easy run, started out with Hyrum, ran to Jeff's house, then we all ran together to my house and dropped Hyrum off. Then ran 7.5 more with Jeff and finished the last half mile by myself. A devil got into me with a quarter to go and I picked up the pace, the last quarter was 1:25, total time for 10.3 was 1:19;58.

P.M. Drove to St. George to go to Zion's Park. Stayed with Steve and Kendra. Did my second run there. 1.1 with Julia in 11:57, Isabel joined us for the second 0.55, Julia was a  great pacer: "Come on you can do it. Just say I think I can I think I can like the little engine. If you get a side ache hit yourself on the side and breathe in deep and out." Then 1.65 with Jenny and Steve in 13:02, and 2.2 with Benjamin in 15:43. Then 6.7 with Steve in 52:00.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.604.000.000.0022.60

A.M. Had an interesting dream. Was racing Dave Holt in a marathon. We got to mile 18. I wanted to drop him. Decided the only way I'll be able to push myself to achieve this would be if I started screaming. So I started screaming, in the dream and in real life as well. This woke Sarah up, she punched me and told me to be quiet.

Ran 20.1 with the St. George Running Club in 2:13:38. Started at the St. George Running Center. Crew: Steve Hooper, Wild Bull, Dustin, and Ken Carlson. Clyde was not there to push the pace, but Wild Bull did it for him instead. So the whole run was somewhat of a fartlek. Wild Bull pulls away, then Steve tells me where the next turn is, I catch Wild Bull to make sure he does not get lost. Add a post VPB catch-up to it as well. Then around 10.6 or so Steve started to push the pace. We moved into sub-6:00 zone, eased off out of it, then moved in it again. Then we saw a sign "reduced speed ahead", and I asked Steve if he wanted me to take the wind. He said sure, so I did. Instead of reducing the speed with the help of some downhill we increased it first to 5:30, then 5:20, and then 5:00. Hoped to find a bathroom at the Hamblin's house during Steve/Ken's water break, but it was locked. Decided to go another mile and a half. At that point Steve stayed behind, and I ran with Ken. Then it was Ken's turn to push the pace and he briefly went into sub-6:00 zone, but then eased off. After my bathroom stop which this time provided some real rather than virtual privacy, Steve caught up to us and we ran together again. Then we saw Marcie. Ken and I just gave her a Brezhnev's wave (this reveals my age, I remember seeing it on TV quite a bit), while Steve stopped to talk. With about 1.5 to go I challenged Ken to pick up to sub-6:00 and he did, and was able to hold it until we got to Steve's hill where he slowed down to around 6:15-6:20, but effort-wise it was probably worth 5:50. Finished at the St. George Running Center.

Went to Zion's afterwards.

P.M. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:08, then another mile with Benjamin in 8:04.

Night Sleep Time: 7.33Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.33
Comments
From dave holt on Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 16:59:52

No more dreams about beating me! You do it enough in real life!

From Lybi on Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 17:04:35

Hahahahaha! James has done stuff like that in his sleep. Sarah and I could commiserate, I'm sure. I'm just grateful that he never dreams about doing karate or kickboxing, or anything painful like that.

Hope you guys are having a great trip to Zion's!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Made up on the sleep. Heard a good talk in church. One brother was speaking about his ancestors. Some did interesting things like riding in two truck next to each other and reaching out from one to the other with a metal pole. They learned you get nice electric shock this way. But on the more serious side, he had a good story about his great grandfather. His family came to America on a boat. He was a baby. On the ship he contracted plague and they thought he had died. The rule on the ship was they had to bury the dead in the sea. The mother refused to bury the baby in the sea and hid him in a trunk. Right when they were about to get off the ship they heard crying from the trunk. The baby was alive.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.590.000.000.8120.40

A.M. Ran with Jeff. We did 8x100 in the middle of an easy run. Missed the split on the first one. 15.6 on the second, then 15.1, 14.7, 15.1, 14.9. Then we did a 100 meter bound test. I covered it in 42 steps, Jeff did it in 45. Then I wanted to see what Jeff could run all out. He did not have his watch, so I gave him mine. To make things interesting he gave me an early start and chased me down. However on the first try he timed himself at the wrong mark - too early. So we did it again, but did not give him enough rest - only 100 meter jog back. The second time around he ran 13.6. Dropped Jeff off and ran some more - total of 15.2 for the run.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 11:38. Then 1.5 with Jenny in 13:09, and 0.7 alone in 5:08. Then 2 with Benjamin in 16:53 with a 200 meter time trial in the middle on the trail done twice. The first one was on a slight uphill and we had to go around a dog - Benjamin went all the way to the grass, he is afraid of dogs. He still got a PR of 40.6. Second time around we ran on a slight downhill and he ran faster - 38.6.

Night Sleep Time: 7.83Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.83
Comments
From MarcieJ on Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 15:14:24

THanks again for telling me about azure standard. I just put my first order in and they are only a couple months away before they will start dropping in ST. George. THe lady I ordered with was super nice! I am excited about all the products they offer.

From wildbull on Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 15:43:12

it was great to see you down here Sasha! Glad you made it back home safe!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.151.200.000.0020.35

A.M. We had quite a company for 5:30 AM - Jeff, Hyrum, Josse, Michelle, and Brad. Michelle and Josse were running the Uneventful Half. Brad and I started with Hyrum at a slower pace, hit the first mile in 8:21, then Hyrum turned around at the mile as planned, we shifted gears and caught Michelle, Josse and Jeff right before 2 miles. We were going a bit under 6:00 at first, then sped up to around 5:40. Our mile split was 5:58 but that included easing off to around 7:00 once we caught up. Then I had a VPB a bit after 3 miles, and caught up in about 0.4 miles. Timed 500 of it in 2:06, a bit under 5:40. We cruised along at a bit sub-7:00 pace after that until Josse started struggling. Brad and I stayed with her while Jeff and Michelle went ahead. Then Brad had a VPB, and never caught up. Josse and I continued. She had a small mental lapse right before the 10 mile mark, but then recovered and was able to finish strong - 6:59 on the last mile, and 1:34:07 for the whole distance - new PR for a loop course.

Afterwards jogged about a quarter with Michelle and Sarah, then went for another 2 miles and found Josse's gloves on the trail. Total time for 15.35 was 1:51:46 minus VPB time. This was actually a brisk pace. Jeff and I have been really enjoying nature and conversation lately running as slow as 8:00 on some runs. Our near all out sprints did help in that cause though - you do not feel like going much faster than 8:00 for a while after sprinting and you need to jog very slowly so you could sprint well again.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 10:56 pushing Joseph in the single stroller with Jenny riding a bike. 1.5 with Jenny running, Julia and Joseph in the double stroller, in 13:02. Saw Ben Crozier on the trail with a girl, it is about time, he is 31 years old, 4 years past the menace to society age supposedly defined by Brigham Young. Stopped to talk to them. He said he would run with us Friday morning. Added another mile in 9:29 with Benjamin and Jacob in the double stroller. Benjamin was not feeling well, which why we ran less and slower than normal. Then another 1.5 in 11:47 pushing Jacob in the double stroller.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From josse on Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 19:08:58

Thanks for the extra push today, I would have been so mad at myself if I wouldn't have finished. I guess that is the plus with running with you, don't ever let me quite. And thanks for getting my gloves they have been with me for over 10 years.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.000.001.000.0020.00

A.M. Did not get good sleep. Had odd stomach issues in the middle of the night. Ran a total of 10 miles, 2 of it with Hyrum, most of it with Jeff. Easy pace, around 8:00 average. Jeff and I did a standing broad jump test on the sidewalk by my house. There was some headwind which skewed the results but it was probably equal for both us, and all we cared to know was the comparison anyway. He jumped 7 feet and 5 inches, I did 6 feet and 7 inches.

In summary, our differences in power exercise measurements with Jeff - leg extension - I am 10% stronger in raw power, but 4% weaker relative to body weight. All out speed - we have not done a good measurement yet, but comparing 100 meter PRs (12.6 vs 13.9), which appears to be consistent with the differences we get during our sprints as well, Jeff is 10% faster. 100 meter bound (cover the distance bounding in the smallest possible number of steps) - my average stride is 7.1% longer and I also move faster. Height difference - I am 3.6% taller. Standing broad jump - Jeff jumps 12% further.

P.M. Windy and rather cold. 2 with Benjamin in 16:31. He felt significantly better. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:12, and 1 with Julia in 10:58. Then 5.5 alone in 38:14 with one event. I saw two girls on roller skates shortly before my turnaround.  After jogging a bit my  "impress the ladies" instinct  woke up. After being married for  over 11 years I still have it. I still could not see them, but I figured if I go about 5:40 pace I'd catch them pretty fast. So I ran a 5:32 mile passing them about half way, then eased off back to 7:20 or so.

Night Sleep Time: 6.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Bonnie on Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 16:39:53

That made me smile - thinking of you two doing that on the sidewalk. I used to compete in the standing broad jump in junior high (on the St. Michael's Track Team in 1976).

Bonnie

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.800.002.000.5020.30

A.M. 2 miles with Hyrum. Dropped him off then ran with Jeff. Originally thought of doing a 5 mile tempo at 5:30 pace, but Jeff had some fatigue and tenderness in the legs, so we decided to do a 2 mile shakeout instead at 5:30 pace along the course of our standard 5 mile tempo. Turned out that Jeff was feeling better than he thought, so 5:30 quickly became 5:20 and then 5:15. Jeff was itching to go when I was doing my quarters. We ended up doing 2 miles in 10:39 with the splits of 5:24 and 5:15. Got some moderate cross-wind. 5:15 felt good behind Jeff, but not so good otherwise. On the way back we did 0.5 to feel the 5 K pace in 2:32 (1:17, 1:15) into a rather strong headwind with Jeff leading the way. The pace was not even as Jeff was trying to adjust for the effects of the headwind so we would still hit 5:00 pace in spite of it. Last 200 in 36 into a headwind felt too fast, but no surprise. Dropped Jeff off and ran some more. Total of 15.1 in 1:58:40.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:38, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:12, 0.7 alone in 5:04, and 2 with Benjamin in 15:37. Benjamin appears to be back to full health - running strong and volunteering sub-8:00 pace.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Walter on Fri, May 02, 2008 at 15:54:27

Hey big guy! I had a question on the USATF LDR circuit for this year. where do I find the results and current standings? I clicked on your usatf ldr website and its pretty vague, or they havn't updated it yet. Thanks for your help. see ya

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 02, 2008 at 16:06:17

Those will not be available until after the registration deadline because we cannot know who is in the circuit and who is not.

From Walter on Fri, May 02, 2008 at 16:37:15

okey dokie, thanks. When is the deadline?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, May 05, 2008 at 13:29:52

June 30th.

From Walter on Mon, May 05, 2008 at 18:27:06

Ok thanks Sasha. Are you running Ogden? and how are you doing?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.280.000.150.5019.93

A.M. Started out with Jeff and Hyrum. We ran 2 miles in 16:31 with a pickup at the end at about 5:20 pace for 0.15. I wanted to see how much juice Hyrum had left, and challenged him to pick up the pace. He did quite well.

Then Jeff and I ran another 2 miles and ended up back at my house again. We were supposed to meet Ben Crozier but he never showed up. We looped around the block for 1.75 miles waiting, finally decided to go. Then Jeff noticed that he had only 30 minutes left, so we picked up the pace to about 7:00 so we'd make it back in time. We did 0.5 pickup on the trail to feel the 5 K pace. The target was 2:30. Jeff took off pretty quick and I felt it immediately. No wonder, 17 seconds for the first 100 meters. So we eased off but not much. Hit the quarter in 73, and then did one more in 73 to finish in 2:26. This pace hurt, definitely not sustainable for the entire 5 K (it would be nice if it was, that would give me 15:10), but I felt could finish OK if I started this fast.

Dropped Jeff off at 10 miles, went for 5 more. Saw Sarah on the trail, ran about 0.8 with her. Then added some more to finish 15.

Jeff and I are racing in the Law Day 5 K on Chad's firm's team. Whenever a corporation gets interested in competitive running, I am always willing to do something to support it. Who knows, one step at a time maybe one day we will have something similar to the Japanese corporate running program or maybe even better. I have never heard of a Japanese runner going under 27:30 in a 10 K, but they have had 11 guys go under 2:08, with 3 of them going under 2:07 in the marathon. The population of Japan is 127 million. In the US we have had 7 people run 27:30 or faster in a 10 K, and only 2 go under 2:08 in the marathon, one of them being Khalid Khannouchi and the other Ryan Hall. The population of the US is 301 million. Clearly the Japanese are doing a lot better in the area of carrying the 10 K speed to the marathon, and I believe having a corporate level running program is an important part of their success.

A.M 2 - Ted told me about a race at the Rock Canyon Elementary that Jared was going to run in. I figured Benjamin would like to participate somehow especially since Jared was involved, and asked if they would let Benjamin run. Ted did not think they would, but he thought they might let him just run along and pace Jared. However, when we got there, we were told Benjamin could be officially in the race. So we signed him up. I was not sure which grade Benjamin would be in, and under the stress I completely forgot the correspondence between ages and grades in the US school system. Not that I remember it very well when I am not under stress to begin with as we home school our kids and let them progress at whatever rate they are ready for. Which happens to be quite a bit faster than their public school peers. So figuring that Jared and Benjamin would be in the same grade, I asked Ted which grade Jared was in. He said 4th. So I wrote 4th grade on Benjamin's tag. Later it turned out that Jared was actually in the 3rd grade, but it ended up not mattering for two reasons - a) Benjamin beat everybody except one 6th grader, and b) since Benjamin was not enrolled in the Rock Canyon Elementary they were not going to give him an award. Being a mature 9 year old and knowing that it would be just a medal or a ribbon he was not particularly disappointed, though, especially after I told him he was going to get a carob bar at Good Earth for his performance. How about this: Awards provided by AskSasha.Com/FastRunningBlog.Com?

The race was advertised as 2.5 miles, but ended up being 2.33 miles long according to Ted's GPS. The participants were kids from 6th grade down. The course was not fast at all - first 0.6 and last 0.2 on grass, the rest on asphalt with some serious uphill and then downhill to come back. Everybody started out very fast as expected, so Benjamin worked his way through the crowd in the first quarter mile of the race. Finally he passed Spencer Jarvis paced by his uncle Karl, a serious challenger his age to watch out for, and moved up on Joe Rowberry, the 6th grader that eventually would beat him. Joe had a quote from Prefontaine on the back of his shirt - "Most people run a race to see who is fastest. I run a race to see who has the most guts." And he raced accordingly - very competitive.

Joe pulled away from Benjamin on the uphill around 0.7 into the race. Then Benjamin started to close on the downhill, and eventually closed the gap to 7 seconds with about 0.7 to go. Then Joe looked back, got concerned, and found some juice to start pulling away. He ended up beating Benjamin by about 20 seconds. Benjamin finished second in 16:22, which is 7:01.46 average. Spencer was third about 20 seconds behind.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:38, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:18.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From wheakory on Sat, May 03, 2008 at 02:52:08

Very nice race for your son Sasha, and a good day of running for you as well.

Race: Law Day 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:17:09, Place overall: 5
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.193.000.003.1122.30

A.M. Law Day 5 K 17:09.4, officially 4th, fitness wise 4th as well, 5th if you use a non-chip way of determining who cross the finish line first. Details below.

Jeff and I volunteered to run for Chad's law firm's (Manning Curtis Bradshaw & Bednar) team. Let me use this chance to put a plug for them. Aside from my own AskSasha.Com one man show that has been sponsoring the Fast Running Blog and my 120 mile weeks and a few small business owners that have donated to the Fast Running Blog I have never dealt a non-running business that was so supportive of competitive running. If you are in need of legal services (I understand they specialize in business law and commercial litigation), I would recommend visiting their website. My impression of them is that they are the type of people that care to excel and are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Chad took us for a tour of the course. for a warm up. It was well marked except one spot. And that was the very spot when I would get lost later.

Our team consisted of Jeff, Josh Steffen, his wife Megan Call, and Johanna Nielson in addition to myself. We were racing BJ Christensen, Grant Rotunda (Westminister College), BJ's brother Ed, and two women I do not remember the names of. The course was a beast - uphill for the first 1.7 miles, some of it very steep, lots of turns, which really hurt once you got going downhill as you could not use that speed very well. Also the downhill was in short bursts.

Knowing Jeff's increased level of fitness we had hopes that he'd be able to neutralize BJ's advantage if not beat him outright. Jeff and I took it fairly easy early on to keep him from starting out too fast. About half mile into the race we used a flatter section to come up on Josh, Grant, and Ed. We hit the 1 K mark in 3:24. Not bad for the uphill. Shortly before the mile mark there was a short downhill section. I felt good, so I moved up and pushed the pace to give Jeff a break and get him going at the same time before the major uphill. First mile was 5:26.

Ed and Grant dropped back, Jeff and Josh pulled ahead. I tried to take it easy on the uphill, but still managed to get myself into some serious leg fatigue. Jeff dropped Josh but could not quite close on BJ. Josh had a 7 second gap on me around 3 K mark. 2 K in 7:00, 3 K in 10:29. I guess there was more uphill there than I realized. We started going downhill shortly before 3 K, but I had a hard time shifting gears, and the turns were really messing with my rhythm. 3 miles in 11:16. I started screaming like a wild animal to get myself going. Interesting that I could and actually found it helpful. It tells me that it was not the breathing that was limiting my speed.

I think the 4th kilometer was too long, and I do have an idea why. Up to that point it followed the certified route. Then it could not follow the certified route any longer because of construction on the U of U campus. I hit the 4 K mark in 13:54. This gives me 3:25 for a downhill kilometer. I'd be willing to believe to a point it except the next one with about the same amount of downhill was 3:15 including the additional 10 seconds from getting lost, so really more like 3:05, and I am quite certain it was not that much faster. I would guess we added about 10 seconds going around the construction.

Shortly after the 4 K mark I approached a confusing spot. Because of fatigue and the high speed I did not see the chalk-written arrow on the road showing which way to go, and also due to fatigue I was disoriented and did not remember which way the course was supposed to go. I eased off trying to figure out what to do, then headed the wrong way, then saw no cones or anything and stopped. Then the volunteers yelled at me and showed me the way, and during that time Grant passed me and gapped me by a couple of seconds. I closed the gap in about 0.2 or so, and then passed him. I think I was able to gap him by another second or so right before the final turn. Then I said I am not going to give him even one tenth of a second on the kick and just floored it. But he kicked as well and edged me out at the finish line. However, my leg with the chip crossed the line 0.1 of a second before his did. So he outleaned me but I outchipped him. Since there was no difference between 4th and 5th, and for the team purposes we had won either way, it did not matter.

We got $20 gift certificates to the Salt Lake Running Company for our team win. 

Went for some more miles with the team, and then later on with just Jeff and Chad. We ran to Liberty Park and did a 3 mile tempo in 17:28 with the splits of 6:00 - 5:51 - 5:37 by Chad's  Garmin. Ran  back, total of 17.5 for the run.

P.M. 2.15 with Benjamin in 17:27, about 1 mile with Julia by time (11:00), 1.65 with Jenny in 14:21.


Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Chad on Sun, May 04, 2008 at 23:43:41

Thanks for running for our team, Sasha, and for the nice plug for the firm. Also, thanks for dragging me through 3 more tempo miles in the park. I think they were actually very helpful.

From Christi on Mon, May 05, 2008 at 19:42:19

Hi Sasha- Sounds like a fun race! Thanks for your comments on my Hurricane Half. You tell me the things that are hard for me to hear about consistency, etc. But I appreciate it! It plants the seeds I need planted to get in the shape I want to be in.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

No running, day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.800.502.000.0020.30

A.M. Started the run with Jeff and Daniel. Daniel went to 3.5 then turned around. After a while I started messing around with landing technique trying to see what happens if I consciously tried to power the muscles harder in the early ground contact phase. The result was that we started running the easy not easy 6:40 pace. The breathing was not affected due to the slowness of the pace, but I could definitely tell I had to focus more - surprise, surprise. I was fed up with that and decided to test this at a faster pace to see what differences I would observe. So we ran a 600 in 2:01 (5:23 pace). Legs felt stale from the 5 K on Saturday, otherwise the pace felt good. At a faster pace I felt I could push in the early ground phase any harder that my natural push at that pace. So I would have to say the experiments were inconclusive.

Dropped Jeff off at 10.1, and ran back to meet Sarah on the trail. Figured that since I'd be running slower with her it would be OK to run fast until I meet her, and that way I would get to meet her sooner as well. This time I felt different, I really liked the feeling in my feet. The strike felt lighter. I think there is a bit of a paradox. The harder you push into the ground right away the lighter it is going to feel because it reduces the time on the ground and there is not enough time for the mind to register the full burden of body weight on the foot and the leg. So maybe my experiments did produce some results after all. I did not know how far I was going, but I figured I'd meet Sarah around 2 miles into the tempo. Ran the first 0.5 evenly in 2:50 (5:40 pace), then hit a 1:19 quarter on the downhill on the trail, slowed down to 1:23 with turns and bridges (5:32 at the mile), then ran the next mile in 5:26, 10:58 for 2 miles. Felt staleness in the legs, but surprisingly was holding pace OK without too much struggle.

Saw Sarah about 100 meters before the 2 mile mark, so I had to do a 200 meter pickup on the way back to catch her after jogging a bit. Ran home with her, then added another mile. Total time for 15.1 was 1:54:46.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:16, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:19, she closed with a 7:50 mile, 2 with Benjamin in 14:58, last mile in 7:08, got chased by a small dog at the end, 0.7 alone in 4:46.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From ron on Mon, May 05, 2008 at 22:50:36

small dogs are the best to be chased by... they are fast enough to push you and harmless enough to eliminate fear of being bit.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.281.000.000.0020.28

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Josse, and Daniel. We paced Josse through the 5 mile tempo in 34:10. She was holding almost 6:40 pace through the first 2.5 (6:43 - 6:39 - 3:23), then faded a bit and did 1:44 quarters (6:56 pace) until 1 mile to go, and then the uphill did her in, but she still survived the last mile in 7:04. Total time of 34:10, 6:50 pace. Daniel ran back to his house, the rest of us finished 10 miles. Dropped Josse off, she said: "Thanks for torturing me, I really enjoyed it." Ran some more with Jeff, then he turned around, I continued. Met Sarah, about 500 meters away from the 2.5 turnaround, decided to go all the way to the turnaround and then catch her. Ran 5:42 mile, caught her right by the swing. So we stopped and had a little swinging date. I figured Benjamin would be interested in knowing how long the swing rope was, so I measured the period of swing oscillation, which was 4.7 seconds. Benjamin later calculated that the length of the swing rope was 5.48 meters long using the formula L = (T/(2*pi))^2*g where T is the oscillation period in seconds, and g is the acceleration of gravity in meters per square second. Finished the run with Sarah, total of 15.08 in 1:56:13.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:31, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:14, 2 with Benjamin in 16:28, and 0.7 alone in 5:00. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Lybi on Tue, May 06, 2008 at 18:13:16

That seems like a really hard way to measure a rope! But I am impressed that Benjamin can DO that kind of math! Jeepers.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, May 06, 2008 at 20:22:35

Much easier than climbing a tree 18 feet high and stretching out the measuring tape. All you have to do is punch numbers into a calculator.

From air dark horse on Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:57:49

Either way I'm impressed and I am still trying to solve the equation with my limited education.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.750.500.000.0020.25

A.M. Started with 6.25 with Jeff, then Hyrum joined us for 3, then we finished with 1 more mile. Did a short pickup with Hyrum at 5:40 pace. Total time for 10.25 was 1:21:32.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:39, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:58. Then 5.5 alone in 36:35. Was plodding along and then decided to catch Josse's tempo run time for 5 miles (34:10) 1.5 into the run. Figured it would not wear me out too much, the faster pace distance being only 4 miles. I started out 50 seconds behind, and at first all I wanted to do was catch the proverbial 7:00 guy. But then I saw that he was coming to me pretty quick, so I decided to set a more ambitious goal. Passed Josse's schedule shortly before 4 miles, and I got to 5 miles in 33:40, 30 seconds ahead of target. Then I saw that the 6:40 guy was only 20 seconds ahead, and 6:00 pace over the last 0.5 would catch him. At first the voice of reason spoke to me and said relax. Then a devil entered into me and said, this is only 6:00 pace, you can do it. So I fell for the temptation and ran 5:50 pace for the last 0.4. Added another 2 with Benjamin in 14:38 afterwards. He was having devil problems as well.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.450.600.000.2520.30

A.M. Started with Jeff and Daniel. Ran 2 times around the block waiting for Hyrum (0.7) then took off. Daniel turned around 3.2 into the run. Jeff and I ran to the end of the trail and back. Did some sprints on the way back with full rest. 2x100 15.2, 15.5 and then a 200 in 30.5. All with a slow running start. Jeff did 14.2, 14.7, and 29.8.

Dropped Jeff off, ran back to meet Sarah. Found her hiding under the railroad bridge. Turned out she did not want to step into a large puddle of water in the tunnel and took a very round about route. Ran back with her, then added another 3 to make it 15.1 for the run. A small devil got into me with 0.6 to go and I sped up to 5:50 pace. Most of the run was done at around 8:00 pace, though.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:46, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:20, 2 with Benjamin in 17:09, 0.7 alone pushing Jacob in the single stroller in 5:08.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 10.00Total Sleep Time: 17.50
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, May 08, 2008 at 17:56:27

Now, Sasha you scare me when you say devil. You need to repent, and instead say "a small burst of energy go into me". :-)

Your training is solid and I think you will have a PR for this course.

From sarah on Thu, May 08, 2008 at 22:53:10

It was great that you came right when I was walking under the railroad tracks...perfect timing for a fun surprise.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.602.001.000.0022.60

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Daniel. It was an eventful run with live entertainment. Yesterday I found out that Jeff and his whole family are very good singers and love to do it. This morning I began to realize the implications of having a training partner that can sing. So I challenged Jeff to sing the Star Spangled Banner at 5:30 pace. We picked up after a bit over a mile warm-up, waited for 100 meters so that Jeff would have a chance to get into a 5:30 breathing rhythm, and then he started. We ended up doing 600 in 2:03 (5:28 pace), and Jeff got a 5 (with 10 being good stationary singing) for his performance from Daniel. According to Daniel he hit about 80% of the notes on key.

Jeff thought his singing at 5:30 pace did not sound that good. To help him feel the magnitude of his accomplishment I sang the same song at 8:00 pace. Daniel gave me a 2. I kept changing keys as I went along, something I do even when I am stationary. Then Jeff sang at 8:00 pace. Daniel gave him 7.5. Reasons for not 10 - some notes slightly flat, and struggles with breathing.

Daniel turned around at 4 miles. Jeff and I went to the end of the trail and then turned around. Then at 7 mile mark Jeff began to be concerned about making it to class on time. So we picked up the pace, went through a few gears and eventually ended up running 6:00 pace. I became curious about how well Jeff could sing at that pace and challenged him to do it. He gave himself 6.5 on Daniel's scale as we did a quarter in 1:29. Then I tried it. Our quarter time was 1:32. We saw Sarah right as I was finishing "o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave". She gave us an interesting look. Jeff said it sounded worse than 8:00 pace singing as I was changing keys more often, but not much. I asked him if that was because it just could not get much worse, he said no, even at 6:08 pace I was still singing better than one of his mission companions.

As Jeff was analyzing my performance, we slowed down to a 1:34 quarter. Once we were done with the analysis, we picked up again and ran the last 1 K in 3:28 (5:33 pace).

Dropped Jeff off, ran back to Sarah, ran some with her, then we saw Iain Hunter on the trail. Sarah suggested I should join him, so I ran 5:20 pace for 0.5 while catching up to him and then ran with him some more. Total of 18.1 in 2:16:28.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:13, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:39, 2 with Benjamin in 14:30, and 100 with Joseph in 43.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.1013.600.000.0022.70

A.M. Long run. First 10.1 with Tyler, the rest alone. During the easy part did a pickup for 0.5 in 2:49 to show Tyler the breathing at marathon pace. Jogged and chatted otherwise up to 7.1 into the run. After that picked it up. First 2 miles at 5:48 pace. Lost focus some on the next mile which was uphill and went through tunnels, got 5:58. Dropped Tyler off without stopping with a 180 at my house and continued the tempo. Had a hard time getting into a good pace, the legs were feeling stale. Not a surprise given the end of a high mileage week and 18 + 4.5 yesterday. Started moaning, that helped me speed up. Eventually settled into a 5:42 rhythm. Figured would do it while I can. Hit the next 5.05 in 29:03. Moaned every 10-30 seconds. Lots of runners on the trail, every one I passed that was going in my direction inevitably had a startled look when they heard the moan. Probably wondering why I just would not slow down and run quietly. On the way back was going a fairly steady 5:45 - 5:48 pace, again moaning. Kept waiting to hit the wall, but it never happened, I just happily moaned along. Last mile, same one with the tunnels and uphill was 5:46, last two quarters 1:25 and 1:23. Last 5.05 was 29:11. Total time for 13.1 was 1:15:49, 5:47.25 average, total time for 20.2 was 2:09:21.

Was happy to break 1:16 on a half with a net elevation gain at the end of a 20 miler and a high mileage week. This gives me confidence that on a good day I can run 1:14:30 second half in Ogden or maybe even faster if I improve my moaning. I have to say that moaning does wonders. Not quite sure why, maybe when you start acting like you are in pain your body becomes willing to bring itself to that level of pain.

Benjamin did the Cub Scout Olympics today. 7.7 in the 50 yard dash, fastest time of all the kids, including the 10 year olds. 47 feet softball throw, average. 24 push-ups in 1 minute, average. 41 sit-ups in 1 minute, highest of all the kids. 59 inches standing broad jump, second longest among the kids his age, short of the longest by 2 inches.

P.M. Ran in the Hobble Creek Canyon downhill with Benjamin and Jenny. First 1.5 in 11:49, then Sarah picked up Jenny and we ran 6:34 mile with Benjamin.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.67Total Sleep Time: 8.42
Comments
From Lybi on Mon, May 12, 2008 at 09:35:41

Man, thanks for giving me a chuckle. You are going to become a Provo legend with all that moaning...little kids will be afraid to go out at dusk because of the "Moaning Man" who might suddenly appear.

What a great tempo run--without even a race! It'll be fun to see what you do in Ogden this year. Good luck.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Took it very easy today. Tried to move as slow as possible and do as little as possible. Stayed awake in church, enjoyed the talks and the lessons in Sunday school. Took a nap in the afternoon. Went from 143 lb at the end of my run yesterday to 152 lb at night, and my stomach did not feel exceptionally full.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.700.000.300.0013.00

A.M. 10 miles in 1:15:55 with Jeff. Hyrum joined us for the first 3 in 24:39. Actually my time was a bit faster as I did a VPB and did not stop my watch at around 2.5. After two more VPBs and some minor sweating my weight went down to 146 lb at the end of my run from 152 lb last night. It was rather wet and chilly this morning. The positive way to interpret the weight change is that I do not need a fuel belt.

Finally taper time, and I am looking forward to it but not too much anticipation, which is a good sign. I suspect one week is the optimum taper length for me. We'll find out in Ogden.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:23, 2 with Benjamin in 16:51, Jenny joined us for the first 1.5 in 13:09.

T4 Racer -  37.7 miles.

 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From Jon on Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:41:57

What sort of mileage will you be doing in your taper?

From josse on Mon, May 12, 2008 at 14:29:41

Are you up to pacing me for a 2 mile tempo @ about a 6:30 pace tomorrow?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, May 12, 2008 at 14:47:09

Jon - probably about 70 including the marathon. Josse - yes that would work.

From cgbooth23 on Mon, May 12, 2008 at 16:10:28

So for someone who has run 7 marathons, but this is the first time I have trained on schedule, and I am shooting for under 3:30, and have been averaging around 40/week for last 4-5 weeks, what do you suggest on tapering?? I felt fatigued last week and got 39 miles, but did a hard spin class and Pilates!

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, May 12, 2008 at 16:31:08

cgbooth123 - I would recommend training through the race. Do not taper at all. Start the race tired, this will keep you from going out too fast. The fatigue will also keep you from getting too antsy before which will allow to end up with more fuel in the tank at the start. When you get too excited you do not store the fuel as well. So the calm from the extra mileage could very well make up for the fuel you spend doing it.

Do not target any particular time. With only a few weeks of 40 and no significant training earlier expect trouble at the end. Treat it as a training run, and then go for a time goal once you've put in a few months of solid training in your next marathon (St. George?).

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.850.000.400.0010.25

A.M. Ran with Hyrum, Jeff, and Josse. Hyrum turned around after 1.5. Paced Josse through a 2 mile tempo in 12:53. My time was actually faster as I had a VPB stop. Took me about 0.4 to catch up, timed 600 meters in 1:59. Total time for 7 miles was 55:27 minus Tvpb .

P.M-1. Did some tests at BYU with Jeff with the help of Iain Hunter on the force plates. Still analyzing the results. Ran 0.75 from the car to the lab and back.

P.M-2. 1 mile with Julia in 10:25, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:37. Joseph set a 100 meter PR of 34.7. 

T4 Racer - 47.95 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.750.250.000.009.00

A.M. 6 miles with Jeff in 47:55 - Tvpb, Hyrum joined us for the first 3 in 24:17 with the last mile in 7:07, his mile PR since he started running again.

T4 Racer - 53.95 miles.

P.M. It was the afternoon of PRs for the girls. On Saturday I bought some honey sticks at Good Earth. Over the week I've been marketing them to Jenny and Julia explaining that they could be had if they ran fast. For Julia the standard was a mile under 9:00 and for Jenny under 8:00. Those times were slower than their PRs but I figured they needed some motivated practice in pushing themselves. Benjamin does it naturally, I actually have to hold him back a lot.

Finally Jenny succumbed to my marketing efforts and decided that today was going to be a prize run. We warmed up the first 0.5 in 4:27, then she went to the bathroom at the park and we started the fast portion. I did not expect her to break the record, but she ran the first quarter on pace - 1:51. I told her she could get the record and and that there will be additional bonuses. So she ran the next quarter in 1:48 followed by 1:53 and 1:47 for the total of 7:19 - a PR by 11 seconds.

Julia heard about Jenny's rewards and wanted some as well. Knowing the rules she asked if she could do a prize run too. She started out very fast - 26 at 100, 54 at 200, 1:24 at 300 and 1:55 at the quarter. I was holding her back figuring let her run fast while she is motivated as she might have a fit later on. Sure enough she did. When Benjamin was her age he understood math very well, he knew what the splits meant, if he was on pace or not, etc. Julia is a bit behind the Pachev curve in this area. At 5 years and 7 months her reading is at the level of Bob Books and her math is at the level of adding numbers less than 20. Benjamin and Jenny could read anything on their own at that age, although Jenny's math was at about Julia's level. However, Julia is a very emotional creature and can get upset a lot more easily. So she did not understand that we were going to the second four-triangle mark before the turnaround. She thought we were going to turn around at the first and when we did not she went into utter panic.

It took me about a quarter mile to convince her that if she just coasted she could still get her record along with the prize, during which we slowed down to 2:18, which gave us 4:13 at the turnaround. To Julia's credit, very few 5 year olds would be running  9:12 pace in her emotional state at the time. She calmed down and finally believed me that she could still get the record. Her next quarter was 2:10, and her last one was 2:06. Her mile time was 8:29, a new record by 12 seconds. Fitness wise she did have a sub-8:00 in her. She could talk on the second half, asked me several times if we were on pace, and made a comment about people walking on the trail. The first thing she wanted to do afterwards is draw a picture of us running on the trail, which she did while we were driving back.

Benjamin ran with Jenny, and then finished the last 0.5 of his run with me in 3:13, which gave him 15:00 for 2 miles.

My Five Fingers have arrived (St. George Running Center now has them), and I did the run in them. I like them very much.

Five Fingers - 3 miles. 


Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From wheakory on Wed, May 14, 2008 at 13:58:08

Wow only 6 miles this morning thats a record low for you. Question: are you running in the T4 racers for Saturday's marathon?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.001.000.000.009.00

A.M. I greeted Jeff with: "Hi, I am Sasha the Duck" this morning as I came out the door wearing my Five Fingers. 3 with Jeff and Hyrum in 25:37, then dropped Hyrum off and finished 6 in 45:44, last mile at marathon pace trying to be honest in 5:40.

One challenge with Five Fingers is getting each toe in its own compartment. But I suppose eventually this becomes natural. I really like having the toes like that when running. And unlike Crocs there is no cushioning in the heel at all, so you have to do a better job of finding inner sources of cushioning.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:49. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:00, another 0.5 with Benjamin to finish 2 in 16:58.

Went to Sarah's ultrasound for the baby. It is a boy. Sarah is due on October 24th. We are going to name the boy William (Bill, Willie Billie Boy).

Five Fingers - 9 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Superfly on Thu, May 15, 2008 at 14:01:05

I just got a pair of Five Fingers from Steve today at the store. I agree it is a challenge to get each toe in it's own compartment. It should be fun to have them and maybe even makes some running improvements.

Are you going to Logan's for the pasta party tomorrow? If not I guess we'll see ya at the start.

From randy on Thu, May 15, 2008 at 20:19:41

thanks, i enjoy reading your running blog, very detailed. hopefully ill learn from it

From ryan on Thu, May 15, 2008 at 23:01:29

what the heck is a five fingers?

From JohnK on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 09:36:36

I'm really wondering how Five Fingers work for most people. My doubts have to do with the fact that everyone has toes of different corresponding sizes (length, especially). My second toes are a bit longer than my first, for example. It seems Five Fingers would work for maybe a third of the population (at most) but for many of us they'd be bad news. Still, I'd be willing to try them!

From wildbull on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:21:16

Five finger socks. let me know howyou le them. my toes need all the help they can get! sometimes they get in a fight and they need to be seperated!

From Jill on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 14:47:33

everyone is commenting on five fingers. I am curious to know what they are too but... (Obsessed runners!) I just wanted to say congrats on William!

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 14:55:33

Jill - thanks. Jill and anybody who wants to know more about Five Fingers. Enter Five Fingers into the search box on the right, click search, then follow the first search result entry. If you are using Firefox with Google Toolbar (you can get it from the button on the right). Highlight Five Fingers with your mouse, right click, Search Google for Five Fingers.

Five Fingers are now available at the St. George Running Center. Highly recommended footwear. I think overtime you can develop a Kenyan/Ethiopian like running form especially if you start young. They make you look like a Fast Running Duck.

From Tom on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 15:02:49

Better a Fast Running Duck than a Fast Running Dork! I may have to try me a pair of those 5 finger thingies.

From Craig on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 15:16:13

Sasha-

Funny you mention the Vibram Five Fingers. I have been scouring Ebay for a couple months trying to get a good deal on a pair, but I couldn't ever find some in my size. I finally bit it and bought some off Kayakshed.com. I would have bought them off the St George Running Center if I had read this earlier.

Anyway, I got the KSO model 'cause I run on dirt trails so much. KSO stands for "keep stuff out" or something, so this model covers your foot. It seems you'd need to wear Injinji socks with these or run bearfoot, right?

From Jill on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 15:41:03

wow! They are crazy looking, but I just bought a pair. If they are too strange for running, I can wear them in the garden. :o) Got them direct from Vibram. Enjoy - thanks for the tip!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.630.000.000.007.63

A.M. Hyrum did not make it this morning. He called later and I gave him a motivational talk over the phone. Let's hope it results in a run later today. He said I should be coaching cross-country. I'd be glad to if I could do it with no red tape. Good luck :-) Just the thought of having to deal with a school district makes me quake and tremble. I have very little tolerance for paper work. One time I told a potential client that was going to pay very well I would have nothing to do with them because they sent me 6 documents to sign. They cut it down to 3 which put it at the boundary of the barely acceptable. When I was interviewing for my first job at Novell they had me talk with five people, one at a time. I already had two offers. After five interviews there was no offer, no idea what kind of offer it was going to be if I was going to get one, and they handed me a four page application form. I started filling it out, but after a couple of minutes just said forget it, put it in the trash and took another offer.

Maybe if some coach wanted an informal assistant, I could help.

Ran 3 miles with Jeff and Benjamin in 25:13, then 3.13 more with Jeff. Total time was 49:12.

P.M. 1 with Jenny and Julia. Julia finished in 9:43, Jenny was around 9:30 as she pulled ahead. Then another 0.5 in 4:12 with Jenny.

Drove to Ogden, picked up the packet, went to the party at Logan's house. We discussed the plan, then drove to Michelle's in-laws house in Perry and stayed with them.

Five Fingers -  16.63 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.67Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.67
Comments
From Lybi on Fri, May 16, 2008 at 15:43:16

Good luck tomorrow, Sasha! Have a great race!

I see that you got your five fingers...are you sore at all today from your run yesterday?

Congratulations on the forthcoming little boy! You're going to spread the "Pachev" name all over this country!

Wow, you REALLY do not like paperwork.

Race: Ogden Marathon (26.22 Miles) 02:32:28, Place overall: 2
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
4.0026.220.000.0030.22

A.M. Ogden Marathon, 2:32:28, 2nd place. Fast Running Blog sweep of 8 places in the top 10 in the men's plus 2nd place in the women's (Michelle). Not perfect score but getting there. Did some FRB recruiting to fix that. Stay tuned for updates...

The morning started at 4:00 AM with a short scripture study, then I followed Michelle in my car to the bus pick-up. On the bus sat next to an older runner named Ryan. We had a good talk.

The temperatures were quite comfortable at the start, which was a bad sign of things to come as that meant it would be too warm later on. It was nice seeing a crowd of uniformed bloggers. I took advantage of every opportunity that turned up to promote the blog. When none turned up I would create one. "Hey guy, how are you? Do you want to get faster? Go to our site - FastRunningBlog.Com!"

Examined the competition, found Ken Pliska and Seth Wold, invited them to run with us. Pretty soon Seth, Logan, Clyde, and I separated from everybody else. During the first mile we had a guy with us whose name I forgot, I think it was Ken, (I hope he finds this post and reminds me) that was targeting 2:40. After we found out his background and his goal we recommended to him to ease off and join the 2:40 pace group (Ogden Marathon race directors did not know that they had one, courtesy of the Fast Running Blog :-)).

I love those first couple of miles of a marathon. Time for introductions and chit-chat. But it ended too soon. Clyde and Logan were a bit edgy, and Seth was playing along. As it would turn out that pace was just right for him. I noticed Clyde was struggling and suggested this could possibly be a bad sign that our pace is too fast. My thinking was that a pace that is too fast for either myself, Logan, or Clyde could easily be too fast for all three, except the other two might feel too excited to notice it. Clyde said he was OK. I said : "OK for the half, OK for 15, OK for 20, or OK for 26?". Clyde said: "we will see at the end".

In the beginning we agreed that we may try a joint effort for Paul's course record (2:26:24) as there were rumors about a possible bonus, and if we were going to do it, the honest way is that all three of us try. Otherwise, the one that does not will have an unfair advantage at the end. So even though the pace started feeling too fast, I decided to go along with it for a couple of miles. At around 4 it really started not feeling right. I wish I could have sat down right there with Clyde and Logan and presented my reasoning for backing off, and to convince them to back off with me, but I did not have the time. I just said that it was too fast and I needed to ease off.

The mile markers were messed up in the early miles due to the last minute course adjustments, but I think by 5 miles they were correct. My 5 mile split was 27:41, with Clyde, Logan, and Seth a bit a head. When I eased off, I think they did as well after a while, and also with them being ahead I felt some pressure to keep a faster pace as I did not want to lose contact in case we started getting gusts of head wind.

Finally Clyde came to grips with the idea that the pace was too fast and let Seth and Logan go. That was nice because now I could work with him better. At first I tried to do trading leads, but it did not work. Clyde's mind works better when he is up front. This was fine with me, I like drafting.

One we turned into the valley, on the 9th mile all of a sudden 6:00 pace became a chore. Then I knew it was getting warm enough to make a difference. This was going to be a survival race. Those are both good and bad for me. The splits are depressing, and the projected finish time is disappointing. I do not like slow pace when racing, well, who does? On the positive side, however, I am very good at survival games, this gives me an edge over the competition.

56:03 at 10 miles, 1:14:45 at the half. I started moaning to keep the momentum and just because it felt right. Sorry Clyde. Learn to moan with those that moan :-) We did a 6:10 mile from 12 to 13 and it felt too good all of a sudden. So I figured it was time to put the pedal down. With a few moans I was able to accelerate and thought I was going at least 5:45. Good luck, 5:53 on a mildly downhill mile. OK, it must be hot. Clyde is falling back pretty quick, and nobody is coming up from behind or is even close.

Moaned my way up the hill, tried to get into a good rhythm afterwards, but still cannot break 5:50. That's OK, just focus on good rhythm, good form, glide along, stay in the money position, don't try too hard to upgrade it, let it come naturally if it is supposed to happen today. 1:26:34 at 15 miles.

Got past the dam, still feeling strong, but it is not showing in the mile splits. But at least they are all under 6:00, and I am even hitting 5:40s on some downhill miles. Passing half-marathoners and scaring them with my moaning. 1:55:45 at 20 miles.

Getting different reports on the gap with the leaders, figuring it is 2-3 minutes. Not much additional info. I want to know if it is 2 or 3. Finally at 24 Josh Steffen, who was on the course, yells at me that Logan is only 30 seconds ahead. I caught up to him in what seemed like forever, and asked him what was wrong. He felt good enough to run with me and answer that his legs were cramped up, but then had to stop and massage them. This happened to me in my first marathon.

Having moved into 2nd cheered my spirits, but I still did not feel secure. Based on how well Logan ran when he was actually running, he could possibly find an extra gear that would allow him to block the pain signals and start running sub-6:00 pace. And somebody like Ken Pliska or one of the bloggers having a miracle race could all of a sudden come from behind.

I was able to keep my miles under 6:00 until 24, then had a 6:04, and a 6:10 in spite of trying to pick it up. I did not feel bad but I guess being out in the open sun on the last mile did not help. Kicked in 1:15 for the last 385 yards, and ended up with 2:32:28 in second place behind Seth Wold who finished in 2:27:43 in his first marathon. Logan came in third holding off Clyde who was 4th. Then Jeff Shadley, Chad, Kory, then Ben VanBeekam created a hole in the blogger dominance which we hope to fix soon, rumor has it that he has been learning and has entered the "almost thou persuadest me" state, after that Cody, Walter, Jon and the Lost Sheep Bill Cobler, a picture with him holding a Lost Sheep sign is on its way.

After the finish three ladies one at a time insisted on giving me the finisher medal. I said, no thanks, I think I had to do it three times for each of the ladies. They could not understand why I did not want a finisher medal. I hope some of the readers will. Suppose you could sing well enough to be paid to do it. How would you like to get a medal every time you sang on key? While singing on key is a feat for a lot of people, myself very particularly included as those who have heard me sing would testify, and  the ability to do so is a gift from God which should not be taken for granted, nevertheless for a decent singer this is a basic element of performance, not a stellar accomplishment. For a number of obvious reasons he would not want to pile up token awards of this kind and put them up on display for his friends to see.

So it is with finishing a marathon. To get a finisher medal all you need to do is get to the finish under 6 hours. In some marathons you can be even slower. For some people such a goal is not trivial. It takes a lot of preparation and focus. Others would be able to do it with ease and with no prior preparation. I believe that if you would able to run a sub-6:00 marathon comfortably even you did not train at all or very sporadically you should not take a finisher medal. God gave you a gift and He expects you to do more with it than just finish a marathon. At least that is what I decided to do for myself. For as long as my health makes it so that just to finish before the course closes is not a challenge I will not be taking finisher medals anymore.

As far as the reward for running a race is concerned when the budget of the race does not permit the race director to reward my performance with cash, a mention of my time in the race results means more to me than any kind of a trophy or a medal. In the context of the competition it speaks for itself, and does justice to what I've done that day. That is all I need as far as recognition is concerned.

T4 Racer - 81.17 miles.

P.M. 3 miles with the kids. 1 with Jenny and Julia in 10:10. Jenny pulled ahead a bit - her time was 10:05. Then 0.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 4:09. This gave Jenny 14:14 for 1.5. Then 1.5 more with Benjamin to finish his 2 miles in 15:56.

Five Fingers - 19.63 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.00
Comments
From Jon on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 19:00:07

8 of the top 10, and 10 of the top 12!

Nice race today, Sasha- very consistent training and race paid off for you today.

From cgbooth23 on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 19:25:31

great job today, always impressed! Thanks for the words of confidence, I am encouraged by the run today and found out I may have an in to St. george with a corporate sponsor, love to see what I can do down there with continued training!

From James W on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 19:36:11

Great job on the 2nd place finish, Sasha. I can't wait to read more of your race report later.

From Tracy Atkinson on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 19:50:30

It was really nice to meet you, You have helped inspire me to take training more serious. I got to see you at mile 18 you looked strong and fast. I didnt know for sure if you could catch the first two runners, they were going so fast too. but looks like you did it. what happened to them??

From James on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 21:39:20

Nice running! Did you ask Seth to do the blog thing yet?

From haynes on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 22:00:03

Nice race! Bringin home the bacon, or that is, fruits and vegetables, lol. I am wondering--What is your marathon nutrition/hydration strategy? I think that part of my previous failures in the marathon were lack of both (because most things used to make me sick while running). It doesn't correspond exactly because I will be racing for 30ish minutes longer than you since I am so much slower, but I was wondering what you do.

From Adam RW- on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 22:07:38

Great report.

From Superfly on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 23:21:48

Smart race!

From Lybi on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 23:34:26

Great job Sasha! It's a very big day for the blog, too. Congratulations on a very well-played game of survival out there!

From Daniel on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 23:49:02

Great race and surviving the heat! I would have loved to see the looks on the faces of the people you passed while moaning.

From Chad on Sat, May 17, 2008 at 23:56:24

You're definitely a survivor, Sasha. Way to stick it out when no one was feeling very good.

From jtshad on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 09:46:25

Congrats on the 2nd place and very smart tactical race. You ran very well for the conditions.

From Ian on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 10:54:54

Well done Sasha, your training and racing inspires us all.

From Burt on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 13:56:22

Congratulations! That's awesome.

From Paul Petersen on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 14:57:56

Nice job. Very smart, patient race. Did you wear the 5-toe shoes?

From MichelleL on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 18:06:50

Congratulations Sasha! Yesterday was a personal and a group victory for you! Thank you for all of your support!

From Logan on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 20:37:40

Great race Sasha! You worked really hard for this.

From Dale on Sun, May 18, 2008 at 20:51:48

Excellent race!

From Walter on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 00:36:58

Well sasha, Im glad I took your advice and I can definately thank you for it. I would have started out with your group and finished alot slower than I did. Cody pushed me and pulled me and the important thing was my finish and how my legs felt after. 100% better! Now I will get my mileage up and get in gear! Good race yesterday and Im so amazed at you and your performance! It gives me hope!

From Michael on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:24:48

Way to fly Sasha. Wow 5:48 per mile, wish I could run one at that speed yet alone 26 like you!

From runnate on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 11:25:30

Great job on the race and good report. I really enjoy reading your blog and appreciate the ideas and support from it. I ran my best marathon yet with a 3:14:48 time. I loved the race!!

From Sean on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 11:39:59

Nice race. It would be great to see you at Twin Cities. Skip SGM and join us in Minneapolis.

From Jed on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 14:08:23

Nice work, Sasha. Sorry I couldn't give you a more accurate idea of the gap around 20. It was good to chat with you at the finish. The FRB world is growing in number and dominance!

From wheakory on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 14:17:29

Great race Sasha your really had a good strategy and pace in the race. Your always so steady in the marathon and never seem to have any trouble miles. You really have a strong mental toughness that God has given you and you use that gift to the fullest. Second place is a great accomplishment with the fact of enduring the heat.

I was trying to find you after the race to introduce my wife and kids (their on the blog). My wife and daughters ran the 5k and I ran the kids k with my three year old son.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 14:50:07

Everybody, thanks for the cheers. James, I did the recruiting effort with Seth in the first mile. Let's see what happens. You guys give him some words of encouragement as well when you see him. Seth, if you are reading this, it it time to join the blog. Send me a private message to discuss the team details if you are interested.

Paul - I ran in T4 Racers instead for two reasons. Five Fingers had not yet been tested in long runs. I would have still taken the risk if somebody would have been willing to pay $1000 for breaking 2:35, but obviously nobody was around to offer it. However, if somebody is willing to offer that + travel expenses if the race is too far away, I would be willing to do it in a non-Sunday marathon on a reasonable course.

Sean - I do not run on Sundays, so Twin Cities is out for sure. Also, finishing in 25th place with 2:28 on a technically aided course and bringing nothing home does not excite me even if the race expenses are paid. If I go to St. George, they give me $150 for being there, which is quite a bit more than the cost of the trip (just gas). Being the first one from Utah County gives me $100. With this year being a non-qualifying year and St. George losing its status due to the OTQ standard change, I think sub-2:23 will be good enough for top 3, which would hopefully give me enough in travel certificates to get to either St. Jude in Memphis or Rocket City in Hunstville in December. This way I get to run a loop course sea level marathon, the costs are covered, and if everything goes well, I bring money home on top of it.

From Twinkie on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 15:38:41

Sasha, Why do you say that Twin Cities is an aided course? Just because it's a point to point? I've never heard anyone say that before of that marathon.

Just curious.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 16:16:57

Point to point is aided is the USATF book unless you can prove that there was no tailwind. Granted, Twin Cities will probably be included in the exception list for qualifying, but still.

From Paul Petersen on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 16:46:33

So you're saying this doesn't remotely interest you?

http://www.mtcmarathon.org/Marathon/PrizePurse.cfm

Seems like they are compensating American runners with cold hard cash (and all sorts of bonuses), something St. George does not do. I figured this would gain "Sasha Approval".

Furthermore, start and finish lines of TCM looks to be borderline at the 30% USATF point-to-point threshold. The finish of a marathon needs to be less than 7.9 miles from the start, as the bird flies, and TCM is very very close. I am not sure if it makes it or not, but is interesting in itself (makes you wonder if it helped dictate the threshold - I think IAAF for record-eligible is 20%).

From jtshad on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 16:48:29

As far as I can tell it is a qualifier as it is the host of the US Championshipd and Master's Championships.

From Superfly on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 16:50:59

Wow. That's an awesome pay scale!

From Paul Petersen on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 16:54:20

Self-correction: IAAF start/finish separation for record-eligible course is 50%, so the USATF standard is actually more harsh.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 18:12:50

Paul:

When a race is on Sunday, I do not have an interest in it. However, if it was not, I would have a remote interest, but still run St. George unless I was sure I could run under 2:21 in Twin Cities. But on the flip side, if I were that fast, I would probably run Akron, Baltimore, or Hartford.

Aside from the financial reasons, I get a bigger kick out of racing a Kenyan than out of racing an American of the same fitness.

If it were at some time that did not conflict with other more interesting marathons, and it were on a non-Sunday, I might consider it.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Good sleep. Went to church. Struggled to stay awake, but making comments in class helped. The afternoon nap was short due to the need to do home teaching. I felt tempted to complain in my mind, but restrained myself by remembering what others had to do to accomplish what the Lord had asked them in the history of our church. Legs felt stale but not sore.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Comments
From Burt on Mon, May 19, 2008 at 17:47:16

Ha! I make comments in class all the time to try and stay awake. I only hope I don't say anything stupid.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.500.000.700.0015.20

A.M. Ran 3 with Hyrum, Jeff and Daniel in 26:13 - tvpb. Then another 2.5 more with Jeff and Daniel, then Daniel turned around, and I finished the rest of the run - last 0.46 with Jeff as he headed home at that point. Total time for 10 was 1:19:59 - tvpb. Two VPBs was the reason for tempo running today. Timed a quarter in 1:23, and 600 in 2:04. The tempo pick ups felt as good as around mile 5 in the race on Saturday. I think I am still not acclimated to the heat. I could really feel a difference between around 50 this morning and 65 in the race.

If anybody wants to read my thoughts on the finisher medals and other token awards, I have added them to my race report from Saturday.

P.M. Benjamin and Jenny made me work tonight. Did all of the kids runs with a double stroller loaded with Joseph and Jacob. 1 mile with Julia in 10:47, then 1.5 with Jenny in 12:05, but she closed with a 7:26 mile, and 2 with Benjamin in 14:40 with the last mile in 6:55. Then a nice and leisurely 0.7 in 5:10 without the stroller.

Five Fingers - 34.83 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Jon on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 09:11:29

Sasha- with the finishers metal, I certainly understand not wanting it. It doesn't take many races before you get a large pile of them built up, so in some ways it either ends up in your trash or in theirs.

2 thoughts, though- using your singer analogy, the marathon is not quite like a singer who sings on key. It is a singer who pays $60 (most of us pay) to compete in a huge competition that he has spent hundreds of hours training for. So the medal is not for singing on key but rather for paying for and participating well in the competition, whether or not he wins. Not all singers want the medals, I'm sure, but they are offered to everyone.

Also, if some people volunteered to hand out participant medals at the end of the competition, I imagine they have a lot of respect for the competitors and what they have done. I know I can't sing, like you, so I would think the singers were rather amazing and deserved the medals. Likewise, the volunteers at the end of a race probably are amazed at the marathon runners, especially the fastest ones. If the second place finisher refused the medal, it may seem a bit rude and prideful to them, whatever the reason. They probably think the top finishers are more deserving of the medals than anyone else, since they put in the most training and performed the best (in absolute terms, not relatively, which is your point that other runners work harder to finish than you). In that case, I would be inclined to simply take the medal and quietly dispose of it later rather than possibly offend the volunteers or race organizers. But again, I do understand your views that finishing does not seem a huge accomplishment for you (though I think it is since it reflects your dedication and training) so a medal is not required. I will admit, my medal is already sitting in some box in my storage room and may never again see the light of day.

From Jon on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 09:12:19

Boy, I didn't realize my comment was that long... Probably the first time a comment on your blog is longer than the entry itself... :)

From jtshad on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:19:40

I can respect your opinion for your not wanting to take the finisher's medal. However, be careful that you do not alienate or downgrade others accomplishment's in running and finishing a marathon. Marathoners are a small percentage of the population and deserve any measure of success and pride that is afforded to them by others or just internal satisfaction. While you preface you comment about the prepartion and focus it takes to run a marathon, your statement can be taken as rather demeaning to those that don't run as fast as you. God gives everyone gifts, your gift to run at your pace in no greater than that of others who are running their 1st marathon or those who are running their 100th and whatever pace they can. You have stated your required recognition and we understand why you run, just don't downplay the recognition others receive for their efforts as the reason they run can be significantly different than yours.

I for one appreciate the time and energy the volunteers and organizer's put into these races and still appreciate the "token" awards I receive. It is a reminder of the effort I put into my preparation and my ability to keep improving my results.

From Cal on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:02:06

Obviously receiving the finishers medal will mean more to some people than to others.

But to the volunteers who are giving freely of their time to hand out the medals, I'm sure it means a lot to place it around someones neck and say congratulations. It probably means even more when they get a simple 'thank you' from the runner.

I say take the medal. If you don't want to keep it, take a sharpie with you to each race, sign your finisher medal and give it to one of the youngsters in the crowd. You might make someone's day and inspire them to go out and run.

From Paul Petersen on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:11:05

A finishers medal might mean more to you after you can't run anymore. Don't take finishing a marathon for granted.

In any case, it would be polite to accept the medal (and certainly not morally compromising), so if anything it helps the cause of FRB world domination when we accept tokens graciously.

From Kim on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:17:44

I love Cal's idea! Think of what it would mean to some youngster, (or maybe a not so youngster), out there who just ran the race of his or her life! Just like the Coke commercial where the kid gives the guy a Coke, (sorry I don't know who the football player is, he is probably the most well known guy out there), and the guy tosses him his jersey. That is a great way to be gracious of the gift and then pass it forward!

From Jon on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:19:18

Good idea, Cal- sign the medal and give it to a kid. Inspire a new generation! And as an added challenge, see if you can run the whole race with the Sharpie in your sock...

From Jon on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:20:00

Kim, that was Mean Joe Greene... I think.

From Kim on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 11:23:08

I knew he was a really famous guy! At least I recognize the name.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 23:07:17

An argument is often made that anybody who can finish a marathon is elite of the elite, 0.1% of the US population, etc. But I wonder to what extent it is true. Suppose we create the following series of marathons throughout the country with the following terms (yea, right, where will the money come from?):

* free entry

* every performance is age graded and gender adjusted to match a man in his prime

* free coaching is available

* using the adjusted time we pay $1000 for under 6:00, $2000 for sub 5:00, $5000 for sub 4:00, $50,000 for sub 3:00, $100,000 for sub 2:50, $200,000 for sub-2:40, $500,000 for sub-2:30, $2,000,000 for sub-2:20, and $100,000,000 for sub-2:10 with the linear increase in compensation for the times in between so that each second gives you a little more, and the faster you get the more that second counts.

If we could do that, we would see some interesting results.

From Paul Petersen on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:09:31

Maybe the Gates Foundation should divert their funding from humanitarian issues to running. Or maybe the U.S. should cut all military funding and divert that money to running. Then we could try your idea! ;-)

The point you are making is probably true. If everyone in the U.S. trained hard and ran a marathon, a BQ wouldn't be a big deal anymore, because so many people could do it. An interesting thought is that even with gross financial incentives, I bet that tons of people STILL wouldn't try very hard, or try at all. Think about this: smoking a pack of cigarettes/day @ $4/pack will cost a person about $1500/year, and $75000 over a span of 50 years. Yet people still choose to smoke. Even worse, if they had taken their cigarette money and invested it in any decent mutual fund compounding at 10% for 50 years, their cigarette money would be worth 1.9 million dollars. Yet people still choose to smoke. I guess you could do the same calculation with a daily Starbucks latte or a monthly car lease. We do things anyway, even if it's a bad value or leads to financial loss.

So the point is that even you gave free entries, free coaching, age grading, and financial incentives, I think about 50% of the people would choose to sit on their rumps anyway.

Perhaps the internal drive to get off one's rump and train is what makes a person "elite" in our culture?

From Jon on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:20:46

I think you have a good point there, Paul- many, many people do not have the drive to regularly discomfort their body through intense exercise. Are there lots of people who have the physical skills to be fast but do not ever exercise? Certainly. But like we discussed in Sasha's "Quality X" post a while ago, elite runners need physical ability AND internal drive/dedication. And personally, I prefer to be involved in activities that people do simply because they enjoy it (running, hiking, frisbee) rather than because they want finacial gain. Once big money is involved, it either becomes more of a job or would evolve into a pro sport-type event (baseball, football) with rich team owners, etc. I want to keep running pure. Not to say I wouldn't like to see more "minor" finacial incentives, but 7 figures seems excessive.

By the way, Paul, I think you could fund Sasha's race by only cancelling a few small military projects (5 airplanes or so) rather than the whole military budget. Just goes to show where the country's priorities are.

From Paul Petersen on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:44:00

Yes, what is our Iraq spending/day? Somewhere in the xx BILLIONS? Not that I'm anti-military (I'm not, we need defense of various sorts), but WOW!!

Or if we canceled the space program, that would free up a few billion. It would put Jon out of a job, but think of the running opportunities!

There's an interesting study that Dave Ramsey quotes for his class. I will paraphrase the best I can. In the study, the test subjects were told they would be paid $10/hr for work. They show up, and are told to start digging a trench. They dig all day. Near the end of the day, they are told to fill in the trench. "Why?" they ask. "Doesn't matter. We're paying you, so just do your job." At the end of the day, they are paid and are told that if they come back tomorrow to do the same thing, their pay will double ($20/hr). The next day, only half of the subjects show up. They do the same thing: dig a hole and then fill it back in. At the end of the day, they are paid and told that they can come back the next day and make $30/hr. The next day, nobody shows up.

The point: financial reasons alone are not enough to do something; a task must be fulfilling and purposeful. For us, running is fulfilling and we find many intrinsic and extrinsic benefits. But for many, running is pointless and is like digging a hole and filling it in every day. After all, you usually start and end in the same place...you don't even get anywhere! It also causes physical discomfort (at least at first) and sucks time. Pretty pointless. There are better forms of exercise that work more muscles, such as swimming or XC skiing. Most of us run because we LIKE to run. Period. Yeah, we talk about the health benefits, social benefits, and all that, but really it comes down to the fact that we like the act of running. And we who LIKE running are a small percentage.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:53:54

Paul - what kind of subjects did they have in that experiment? If you did it in a poor country where $10/h is a lot, families are big, and opportunities for income are scarce, they would all show up the next day and bring their friends too.

From Jon on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:56:26

I think there are a fair number of runners today who tolerate running and a fair number who like it. Some who initially tolerate it grow to like it. But certainly, the body of the general population does not like it. Which, actually, is fine with me. I have often said that if everyone enjoyed the exact same activities (running or anything else), they would be too crowded for me. I like a diversity of hobbies/activities. I also am happy to see the number of runners increasing, but that is based on the understanding that the growth is somewhat limited.

From josse on Sun, May 25, 2008 at 11:08:57

Interesting, all I have to say is Sasha if your goal is building the blog and running community you had better be careful what you say. Most of them are really proud of there small little tokens they recieve from finishing a marathon or even a 5k at that matter.

From MarcieJ on Sun, May 25, 2008 at 18:08:37

I love all my finisher medals! In fact I kinda get bugged when they dont hand them out. Its something to hold onto and remember all the races that I have ran and the hard work I have put in. To me the sentamental value of them in invaluable!

From Christi on Mon, May 26, 2008 at 11:20:39

I don't think I've caught all the of the conversation- but just a thought... My friend Heather gives her finisher medals to her kids. I think this is a very sweet thing to do. She runs her races in her kids honor and give them the finisher medals.

From Kim on Mon, May 26, 2008 at 11:26:21

Tom and I were just talking yesterday about how fun it would be for future grandkids to come and be able to play around with all the medals. We even thought it would be fun to award them to the grandkids for running with us while they are here. But that is a few more years down the road.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.950.250.000.0015.20

A.M. 10 in 1:19:41 - tvpb. First 7 with Jeff and Josse. Jeff's leg was bothering him a bit, he stopped at 7 just ot be sure. Caught up to Sarah with 0.1 to go and finished with her.

Just checked our web stats on Quantcast.Com. Record page impressions and uniques yesterday - 9K+ impressions and 450+ uniques. AdSense revenues on running pages are terrible compared to what the Loan Interest Calculator is making. AdSense says you are not allowed to reveal how much you are making, but I think I would still be within the terms of the agreement if I said that if all of my running pages produced as much revenue per impression as the loan interest calculator, I would be able to work on the blog full time.

P.M Kids took it easy on me, which was nice since I pushed the double stroller with Jacob and Joseph the entire time. 1 with Julia in 11:19, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:20, 2 with Benjamin in 17:28, and 0.7 alone in 5:18.

Five Fingers - 50.03 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 19:32:11

Sasha, is the Five Fingers a good value for training, and making your feet muscles stronger?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 19:53:12

I like the feel, but we'll see in a couple of months how much they help. One thing I can tell is that you cannot be sloppy on ground contact at all, it hurts when you space out.

From Jon on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 22:53:02

What is the definition of an impression and a unique?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, May 20, 2008 at 23:10:42

Impression - you look at one web page. Unique - a computer used for viewing a site. This is of course never exact, but the estimates are pretty accurate.

From Karl on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 01:04:09

Hey how many miles do you think I should be putting in during the summer per week in preparation for next year's cross-country season?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:30:43

Karl - about 60-70 to start. You will not see dramatic effects for a few months. Do not think of it as getting ready for something such as cross-country season. Think of it as a life style to maintain. You will see some improvements in the fall if you start now, but most of them will come in a year, two years. And you need to keep it steady. Doing 60 miles a week for a couple of weeks, then taking a break, then doing it again for a couple of weeks is not very effective.

Make sure to keep the pace slow. Do one tempo run a week to get the legs moving and feel some pain, maybe quick strides a couple of times a week to help you remember how to run fast, race once in a while to test your fitness. But otherwise keep it very relaxed. Do not break 7:00 on most of the runs.

The exciting news is that you are only 4 seconds slower than Ryan Hall in 800 meters. High mileage will help you find out if you have the same predisposition to endurance as he. If you do, 1:55 in the 800 will give you about 2:10 in the marathon once you start running 120 miles a week.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.250.002.001.7515.00

A.M. Ran with Hyrum, Jeff, and Daniel. Actually did most of the run with them in the vicinity but not with me since I was doing a different workout. First the philosophy behind it.

I noticed from the force plate test that my form is very efficient at a slower than marathon race pace. You can see from the force graph that on landing my foot is already going backwards. In the half-marathon and marathon pictures I am often caught in a position that looks like I am about to do a serious overstriding action, but I know I don't - it would have been awfully difficult to run in Crocs, and particularly Five Fingers like that. I think what happens is that I swing my foot forward and then backward right before landing, which is very good - this gives you a forward momentum to start with.

The fast speed test was botched, but after some thought I decided to go off with the assumption that the form at faster speeds is not as efficient as it is at slower speeds. I am going off the intuitive assumption that a serious quality breakdown takes place somewhere around 5:10-5:20 pace. Reasons - up to 5:20 I feel I can hold that pace forever. 5:10 is very miserable, I can barely hold it for a 5 K on a good day. Also, intuitively it feels like at slower speeds I have enough time to do my forward-back foot swing, but onces we are sub-5:20, there seems to be not enough time for it.

So I want to do an experiment. Can I train myself to do the magic forward-backward swing efficiently enough to stay aerobic at 5:00 - 5:10 pace? Today the experiment started. I did a 30x200 fartlek with the goal of running at around that speed, but the focus being not so much on maintaining the speed, as on maintaining good form. Wearing Five Fingers was a lot of help. I discovered that at those speeds they are different even from Crocs. They put a cap on how hard you can pound the pavement. Crocs do to a certain extent, but not nearly as much as Five Fingers. So you cannot run faster by just hammering harder, which is what I would have done even in Crocs, and especially in racing flats. You have to land a certain way that reduces the breaking and loads the ankle well at the same time, and then time your ankle extension properly and do it very vigorously. If you do it right, you can relax quite a bit more than normal while airborne. I think today I got a glimpse of understanding of how Kenyans and Ethiopians develop a form that helps them go under 27:00 in a 10 K.

The pace varied from 5:00 on the fastest to 5:20 on the slowest. Last night it was windy, and the wind knocked down a lot of branches and twigs. The pace greatly varied with the number of twigs I had to step on. The amount of rest varied a lot as well, but was 100 meters on average. Sometimes I would take a longer break to get to a better section on the trail, and a few times I just ran a full quarter.

Total time for 10 miles was 1:16:20.

P.M. Had the double stroller with Jacob and Joseph for the entire run except the part with Benjamin. 1 with Julia in 9:58, 0.18 more to drop her off at the church (she got 1.18), picked up Jenny, 1.62 with her  in  14:26,  dropped her off at the church,  0.18  home. Then  2 with Benjamin  in  17:24.

Five Fingers - 65.02 miles. 


Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From todd on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 15:23:40

This seems to me to just be more evidence that you have potential as an ultra marathon runner more than as a marathon runner. Why not try a 50 miler and see what you can do? You clearly seem built for it and the lack of speed wouldn't even be a factor.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, May 21, 2008 at 15:34:34

I would be even better at a pinky toe twitching contest. I can make my right pinky toe twitch like there is no tomorrow. But there is just not as much buck for the bang either in ultras or in twitching a pinky toe. And, besides, I really do not like running that much to run for over 3 hours straight. My long runs are rarely over 20 miles.

From adamr on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 13:39:59

Sasha,

I understand your assumption that your form is not as effecient at faster speeds, but didn't you notice a few weeks ago that your body gets to its most effecient fast form when you are trying to catch up to another runner? I thought you noticed it automatically did what it needed to get the job done. So do you think it might be a better way to improve your effeciency at these speeds by having someone to chase over each 200m repeat, like another runner or a bike pacer, thereby allowing you to practice that effecient "catch up" form? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.450.150.000.0014.60

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff in 1:19:12. Had a VPB, caught up, thus 0.15 at marathon pace, took me a while to get up to speed. Hyrum joined us for the first mile in 9:28 or so, Daniel joined us for the first 4. We were all asleep, took forever to get going, were getting beat not only by the 8:00 guy but also by the 8:30 boltushka . But then we woke up and ran around 7:10 pace.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:55, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:22. Julia ran the first 0.18 with Jenny to play with her friend. Then 2 more with Benjamin in 17:14. His friend Stephen joined us for the first and the last quarter.

Five Fingers - 79.53 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, May 22, 2008 at 14:42:00

It's okay to run slow you just ran a marathon, and you can call this a good recovery run. Nice run Sasha.

From Adam RW on Thu, May 22, 2008 at 16:38:16

So I guess I’m an activist at heart. I noticed we’ve only had 13 votes but 144 views and there are more of you out there. I know some people don’t use the discussion board of the blog so I’m posting this comment on everyone’s blog that has updated in the last few days or so to bring your attention to both the discussion section and the mileage board. Please read the discussion here (http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,324.0.html) and then vote here (http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,348.0.html) if you have an opinion. If you already voted, I am sorry about the “spam.” Thank you!

From Burt on Thu, May 22, 2008 at 18:38:41

http://fastrunningblog.com/set_template.php

I believe the first sentence should read "You can choose what training variables YOU want to log by..."

From Scott Zincone on Thu, May 22, 2008 at 23:00:37

HELP !!!

I was reading your blog and clicked on the link inside the comment left by Burt. I did not think I made any changes, but then all of my blog entries disappeared. I hope you can get them back for me.

Thanks !!

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 14:49:57

Scott:

As you have already noticed, I've fixed your blog. I've also fixed the temptation to break it on accident (I hope), and the typo that Burt has pointed out.

From Scott Zincone on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 18:19:39

I realize this is the second time I have done this, and I am not sure if you trying to get a point across to me or not with your response. But if you were, I certainly deserved it.

I know you hear this all the time but I am very appreciative of this blog and all you do. I may not have had a 30 minute Marathon PR because of the blog, but I am definitely a better runner because of it.

Thank You.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.500.000.000.5015.00

A.M. 10 miles in 1:18:26. Ran with Hyrum, Jeff, and Daniel. Hyrum set a post-break PR of 32:21 in 4 miles with the last 3 in 23:14. And this week he had 80% attendance, which is a record as well. I keep telling him he has a 2:30 marathon in him, but he still does not quite believe me. But we are working on it.

Today was a day of singing again. First I sang Come Come Ye Saints at a slightly sub-8:00 pace and then Jeff sang the same song. I got a 2 from Daniel, Jeff got a 7 with 10 being good singing while stationary.

Daniel went another 2, then turned around. Jeff ran with me the whole 10.

A funny story about Jeff. In his class at BYU they had an assignment to estimate their maximum heart rate. The formula included measurements of weight, height, resting heart rate, and a heart rate at a pace that one thought he could sustain for 30 minutes. It gave Jeff some odd results. He took it to his professor, who said it was not meant to work on somebody who could sustain 5:25 pace for half an hour.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:58, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:21, 2.5 by myself with 2x400 first down 1% grade, second up, both in 1:17 to feel the 5 K pace for Magna. 

Five Fingers - 94.53 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Jon on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 14:42:29

What result did the formula give? What is his actual heart rate?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 14:48:23

I think the formula said that his max is 177 while he hit 172 at 5:25 pace after a mile. I push my HR relative to my max very very well, very much out of range for a non-East African (I race a marathon at 90% of my max start to finish, and a half at 93%) and at 5:25 pace I would still be about at least 10 beats a minute off my max. I asked Jeff to dig up the formula.

From Cheryl on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 15:58:56

Sasha-I'm reading The Paleo Diet for Athletes by Loren Cordain and Joe Friel. Are you familiar with it? In it they say for optimal athletic performance you should avoid all dairy products--no milk, cheese, yogurt, etc. What is your opinion of that?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 16:32:54

Cheryl: I have not read The Paleo Diet for Athlete. However, in 2003 I stopped using milk products along with white flour and red meat, and started running better. I have always been allergic to plain milk, but seemed to handle sour milk (yogurt, cheese) more or less OK. I would not say that milk is necessarily bad for everybody, but I've done very well without it. You can give it a try and see if it makes you run better or worse.

I think what is important about diet is not so much what you do and do not eat, as that your diet is a) balanced and b) consistent. I think a) will happen more or less naturally if you eliminate popular products with a brand name and eat healthy foods whose names your 19th century ancestors would have recognized according to your natural hunger, sense of taste, and overall body feedback. Most people struggle with b) always finding exceptions to eat less than ideal foods.

From Jon on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 16:45:17

Sasha- how do you get iron in your diet?

From Cheryl on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 16:48:18

Sasha--Thanks for the reply. In the book they also say that protein is very important and most athletes don't get enough. If you don't eat red meat, what are your main sources of proten?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 16:54:19

Jon - when Dennis asked me the same question a while ago my answer was I don't know but somehow I do because I am running more and feel better. But that got me curious and I studied the chemical composition of what I was eating. Turns out oats have a lot of iron.

I think too often we worry too much about a particular isolated nutrient and forget about the element of harmony that each food either brings or takes a way.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 16:59:26

Cheryl - grains and nuts have a lot of protein. In fact, I think you will get more protein eating grains to satiation than you would eating meat to satiation and your ability to digest it. But again, it all goes back to the focus on the end result vs the focus on individual nutrients. I have not had a single piece of red meet since 2003, and I have not lost any muscle mass. When I exercise a muscle, it gets bigger off my red meat free diet. So the protein and whatever else it needs for growth and healthy function must be coming from somewhere.

From Cheryl on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 17:20:53

Thanks. Is there anything else in the typical American diet that you avoid? (not referring to junk food, I assume you avoid all junk food.) Do you eat chicken, turkey and fish? What do you eat immediately following a big run?Thanks for answering all these questions, I'm really curious about an elite runner's diet.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 17:29:38

I eat small amounts of chicken, turkey, and fish. During the winter maybe three times a week, during the summer maybe only once.

Note however, that the "eliteness" of a runner poorly correlates with the diet. 90% of the "eliteness" comes from what I call Quality X, see the discussion on the board for more details at

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,156.0.html

Good diet, however, helps you preserve Quality X as you get older, sustain your speed over longer distances, handle the training load better, and be less prone to injuries.

From josse on Fri, May 23, 2008 at 17:44:55

Cheryl Do realize that everyone body is differant and like Sasha said you need to pay attention to what make you feel good and what doesn't. If we all ate like that fast food places would go out of business. I have changed my diet in the last year and really feel a differance in over all health and well being. I eat similar to Sasha but I do eat dairy and some red meat.

When eating this way you have to really pay attention on making full protiens with mixing grains and beans. Or beans with a milk protien.

Allso beans have alot of iron in them.

From Cheryl on Sat, May 24, 2008 at 19:15:20

Josse--Thanks for that info. I'm going to see if paying more attention to diet makes running better.

Race: Magna Classic 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:15:25, Place overall: 8
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.440.000.003.1120.55

A.M. Magna Classic 5 K 15:25, 8th place, new course PR.

The course in my opinion is equivalent to Carlsbad - aided but at an elevation. You can see the course map and profile at Magna 5K link. At least Dennis Simonaitis ran 14:47 in Carlsbad and 15:00 today, and 14:55 last year in Carlsbad and 15:12 in Magna. Adjusting for putting in less effort in a lower-key race we get the times that are about equivalent. The Course Tool says we are getting about 13 seconds a mile speed up, which would give us a good 40 seconds, which would be 20 seconds more than an NCAA altitude adjustment. In practice, though, I am seeing people run 30 seconds faster at sea-level so I wonder if the adjustment is tailored to make sure that the best altitude runner does not get too much. Also RunWorks.Com calculator says Magna should only be 32 seconds faster than a flat course at the same elevation.

Drove up with Jeff, his wife Kimia, Tyler, and Steve Ashbaker the Air Dark Horse. Warmed up 2 miles, and got ready.

Trouble at the start: in addition to what I've brought in my car, Teren, Seth, Mike Vick, Dennis, Josh Steffen, and Adam Wende. Turned out there was even more trouble - John Cole, a high school runner that has been putting in the miles. Lots of lions going after $275 worth of antelope meat.

The gun went off and the lions said: "Grrrr" Went through the first mile in 4:34. Course Tools says it should have been 4:45 for an even effort for this time. It felt hard. We had some sort of a pack. Teren and Seth way ahead, then Mike Vick a little closer, then Dennis, Jeff, Josh, Tyler, John, and myself.

In the second mile Dennis made a move. Josh tried to follow. Tyler fell back. Jeff fell back but then passed me and pulled away. 9:26 at 2 miles, 4:52. Course Tool even pace projection was 4:55. I was very happy with that 4:52 mile. Last year my first mile was 4:36, and second mile was 4:59.

I expected some difficulty in the last mile given my lack of 5 K training combined with the fast start. But there was not as much difficulty as I expected. We had some tailwind or maybe friendly cross-wind in the first 1.7 miles. However once we turned we had either a headwind or an unfriendly cross-wind. I was drafting behind John, and actually started feeling somewhat good after a moaning stretch, but I did not want to take over as he was going fast enough. I passed him once we turned the corner off 2700 South (around 0.4 to go), then he passed me back with about 0.25 to go, I stayed with him until about 0.1 to go, then he had a kick and I did not. So I ended up in 8th place with 15:23 on my watch, 15:25 officially. This is 19 seconds faster than last year, and a course PR by 6 seconds.

 

Other finishers: Teren 14:12, Seth 14:48, Mike Vick 14:51, Dennis 15:00 (masters course record), Jeff 15:08 (got a $20 piece of antelope meat, last lion that got to eat today), Josh Steffen 15:16, John Cole 15:23, Tyler 15:28 (9th), Steve Ashbaker 16:06 (10th), Adam Wende  16:09 (11th). Zuzana Thomas won the womens in 16:51 (if I remember right), then Carre Joyce 17:02, and Carol Cabanillas 17:08.

Ran a moderate length cool down with Jeff, Tyler, Steve, Seth, Adam, and Mike.

At home ran 1 with Julia in 9:30 (Benjamin joined us but ran ahead later and finished in 9:04), and then 1.5 with Jenny in 13:23.

P.M. 8.05 in 56:43. First 1.05 with Joseph and Jacob in the stroller.

T4 Racer - 90.76 miles

Five Fingers - 104.96 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From Tom on Sat, May 24, 2008 at 20:18:00

Good job Sasha, congrats on your course PR.

From Dave S on Sat, May 24, 2008 at 21:35:03

Sasha, nice race expecially after a difficult marathon last week. It was nice meeting you after the race.

From Lybi on Sun, May 25, 2008 at 00:17:18

Wow! You are running amazingly well this season--PR's all over the place. It's especially noteworthy because of how long you've been running, and how solid your training always is!

From James W on Sun, May 25, 2008 at 00:36:43

Congratulations on a course PR. I agree with Lybi, you are doing extremely well this season. Looking forward to seeing you no later than St. George.

From Michael on Mon, May 26, 2008 at 18:20:27

Wow - fast race Sasha - great effort and great improvement, especially with running the marathon a week ago. The saying "you beat me by a mile" was really true, I was probably at mile 2 when you finished

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Got good sleep. Went to church. We had a good lesson on Mosian 18-20. The people of Limhi were outnumbered by a large group of the Lamanites that had enslaved them. They were originally conquered by the Lamanites when they fell into sin under king Noah which resulted in a loss of morale of their army, weakening it to the point where they could not defend themselves. Three times they tried to free themselves with their own strength without relying on God, and three times they were severely defeated. Finally they decided to humble themselves, repent of their sins, and come before God in prayer and fasting.

When they did God showed them a solution, which was to escape and head towards a larger group of the Nephites while the guards of the Lamanites were drunk.

I thought the story was very instructive. It is important to humble ourselves before God. Christ taught that whoseover exalteth himself shall be humbled and whosover humbleth himself shall be exalted. I have pondered last night what it means exactly to be humble, and especially as it applies to running a marathon. Suppose you are fit to run 2:40. If you apply the virtue of humility you go through the first half in 1:20. 1:15 errs on the side of overconfidence, while 1:25 errs on the side of self-deprecation. Both are not an expression of true humility. I would define humily as being in tune with the truth and acting accordingly. The ability to be humble in this sense is key to success in a distanace race, especially the marathon.

Another thing that impressed me was that when the people of Limhi were out of tune with the truth they attempted a brainless impluslive brute force solution which did not work. Three times! When they humbled themselves, they were finally ready for the solution that would work. Earlier they were too proud to even think about it. I saw a lot of parallels with my own life experiences in that story.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.200.500.300.0020.00

A.M. Started the morning with 8 in 1:03:27 with Daniel, and Jeff. Hyrum joined us for the first 2, Tyler stayed with us for the first 3.5, then his ankle started hurting and he turned around. Did 500 in 2:03 to catch up after a VPB.

Afterwards drove to American Fork to pace the kids in the Harrington Memorial race. Jeff came along with us to help with the pacing job. First I paced Jenny through a 7:09 mile, a new PR by 10 seconds. Jeff paced Julia through a 9:23 mile. Julia decided to take it easy today, was chatting as she went along. She is still little, once in a while she gets goofy. Josh McAdams won the mile in 4:12.

As soon as we finished, I dashed back to the 5 K start to try to catch as much distance with Benjamin as possible. I only missed about the first quarter or so. Benjamin ran great, kidded a lot of adults, was untouchable by anybody his age, taught the hill by the cemetery a lesson, that same hill that humbled him two years ago. His first mile (downhill) was 6:33, then 7:19 uphill, and third downhill mile in 6:41. He finished in 21:12, a new PR by 20 seconds. He almost outkicked a high-school age teenager on the last quarter with his Lasse Viren style kick. The only problem was that his legs are not yet quite Lasse Viren's length. But still, 21:12 is very decent for a 9 year old kid.

Ran some more miles with Jeff afterwards. Seth Wold ran 15:29 for second, with Dustin Bybee a few seconds ahead.

P.M. 3.5 pushing Julia in the stroller in 27:52. 

Five Fingers -124.96 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From JohnK on Tue, May 27, 2008 at 10:17:30

Congrats to Benjamin on the new 5K PR!!! 21:12 is outstanding.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.120.250.000.0020.37

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Josse, and Daniel. Matt joined us on the trail later. Dropped Josse and Daniel off at 8. Dropped Matt off at 10, and Jeff at 12. Ran some more. Ended up with 15.17 in 1:53:31.

P.M. Had Jacob and Joseph in the stroller the entire run. Took Julia for a mile in 9:58, then did the swing run.  Benjamin ran 2 in 15:41 while Jenny rode a long, then we played at the swing, and Jenny 1.5 in 13:16 while Benjamin rode along. A funny thing happened. A procession of a dad in Five Fingers pushing two kids in a very beat up stroller accompanied by a 9 year old boy on an old undersized bike and a 7 year old girl in Crocs was advancing at about 8:45 pace along the trail. We passed a young running couple. Both looked fit. He says, "what, you are passing us with two kids?", and then he sees that there a little girl passing them as well and she is on foot!

Added 0.7 untimed afterwards. 

Five Fingers - 145.33 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.25
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.305.000.000.0020.30

A.M. Started with Hyrum, Jeff, and Daniel. Hyrum ran the warm-up with us then ran back to the house. Paced Daniel through a 5 mile tempo. The plan was to see if he could handle 6:00 pace, and then see how easy it was by picking up at the end. Mile splits were 6:00, 5:58, then we had 14:57 at the turnaround, third mile was 5:57, then 5:51, and 5:47 on the last mile which had some uphill. Total time 29:33, last 2.5 in 14:36. Very decent, he is starting to get in shape. Makes Daniel a good substitute for the Wasatch Back in case we need one except his wife is due on June 16th. Matt was out on the trail and joined us for some sections of the tempo.

Dropped Daniel off at 9, ran another 1.05 with Jeff, and then finished 15 alone.

P.M. 0.7 alone, 1 with Julia in 9:47, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:19, 2.1 with Benjamin in 17:24. 

Five Fingers - 165.63 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Jon on Wed, May 28, 2008 at 16:18:45

Tell Daniel that my wife is due Jun 11 and I'm still doing WBR (just in case we need him as a backup). No excuses accepted!

From Kim on Wed, May 28, 2008 at 16:24:09

ooooh Jon! Be very careful! You are treading on very thin ice with a comment like that! =)

Your wife is a very understanding person to let you be doing the WBR at such a time! I hope it works out well for both of you. Congrats on the new daddy status that will be coming up. You'll have to keep us informed!

From Jon on Wed, May 28, 2008 at 16:29:19

Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually missing her sister's wedding, too, in order to run the race. I'm a dedicated team member, I guess.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, May 28, 2008 at 16:33:31

All social events that weekend should take place in Logan if they are scheduled on Friday, and in Park City if the are scheduled on Saturday :-)

From Jon on Thu, May 29, 2008 at 13:43:39

http://seth.fastrunningblog.com/

Looks like we have another "Top Runner" to add to the board.

By the way, I loved your story of passing the couple out for a jog with your procession of kids. Very funny.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.400.400.000.0020.80

A.M. 15.6 in 2:06:43. Started with Jeff and Daniel. Matt joined us in the middle. Dropped each training partner off eventually, then ran a bit by myself, and then found Derek Davis and ran with him a bit, then more alone. Miscalculated the turnaround and ended up with extra distance.

The subject of discussion today was Quality X. We concluded that a good portion of it is built during the time in the womb and early childhood.

P.M. 0.7 alone in 5:46, then 1 with Julia in 10:00, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:21, and 2 with Benjamin in 15:27. Went to a missionary training meeting. Half of the audience was Caucasian, but it was conducted in Spanish.

Five Fingers - 186.43 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Jon on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:18:48

How do you "build" Quality X, as opposed to being just born with it as part of your genes?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:51:04

It starts in the womb. The mother needs to eat healthy and exercise. Then the child needs to be active in a variety of ways. Ideally, run a mile or two a day, then play active games like tag, play ball games, etc. Also get proper nutrition, regular healthy meals. I think the time will come when we will have scientific proof that a mother's lifestyle during pregnancy + child lifestyle early on has more effect on Quality X than the genes.

From Jon on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 15:17:20

Unscientifically, I could understand that being active as a child could result in being a better athlete (or is it that children who are better athletes/high Quality X are naturally predispositioned to be more active?). I can also picture that a healthy eating mother can help in terms of fetal development. The iffy one is that the mom needs to exercise- the only link I can see there would be if the additional endorphins in the mom's blood somehow plays a roll or something, because I can't picture a parasite (the baby) benefitting from host (mother) exercise other than how it affects what is in the mother's blood.

From Jon on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 15:18:01

Interesting topic, anyways.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.800.400.000.0020.20

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Daniel, and Matt. Jeff ran 10, Daniel 8, Matt ran 10 as well but he started from his house and we found him later. So I ran the last 5 miles alone. Total time was 1:54:31.

Matt at one point wondered if VPB was a special running term he did not know and he even Googled it. He thought maybe it was some kind of a speed workout. It sure is if your training partners do not wait for you. So I did my VPB speed workout today, about 0.4 at 5:40 pace.

Interestingly enough, a search for VPB on Google finds my blog, but does not find the definition. So maybe if I define it again we could improve the relevancy of the search and help those who are confused. Definition: VPB = Virtual Private Bathroom, or in other words a bush. It does not stand for Virtual Potty Break, the break is very real, it is the privacy that is virtual.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 9:46, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:17, 2 with Benjamin in 16:35, 0.7 alone.

Five Fingers - 206.63 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From jona on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 15:35:21

Sasha, I see your "Five Fingers" have 200 + miles on them, how many miles to those typically get, and can you give us an update or final on your crocks?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 15:42:22

Crocs developed holes that were too big for my comfort by 510 miles, so I retired them. If somebody paid me to take them further, I could have, though. I do not know how long Five Fingers are supposed to last. They appear OK after 200 miles with the exception of a small hole in the fabric on top of one big toe. But I have to say that Crocs are super-cushioned shoes compared to Five Fingers.

From Jon on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 16:03:57

Sasha- one of the main sponsors of the Bolder Boulder is crocs. Maybe you can contact them and see if they will sponsor you if you win the race wearing crocs!

http://www.bolderboulder.com/site3.aspx

From jona on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 17:20:03

I was going to say that you should hit croc's up as a sponsor. What great advertising!

From cgbooth23 on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 17:39:18

thanks for the update on VPB, well needed definition!

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 17:49:37

Crocs just offered me 4 free pairs for a video of me wearing them. They showed no special interest in me winning a race. I figured it was not worth the time.

From Lulu on Fri, May 30, 2008 at 23:35:18

So glad no one thought that VPB stood for ventricular premature beats. Surely your search turned up a cardiology journal article or two...

From jeffmc on Sat, May 31, 2008 at 16:21:17

I looked up my time online from when I ran the Sound to Narrows while "completely out of shape" and it ends up that it was faster then I thought. I finished in 44:29 in 2003.

From josse on Sat, May 31, 2008 at 16:54:44

You could wear your FBR shirt and it would be great advertising.

From Lybi on Sat, May 31, 2008 at 17:08:17

Sasha, you should do the video/shoe thing! They probably want to see how it works, and if there is a possibility of making crocs that are better suited for running. So, in the name of science! And Josse is right--it would be great advertising for the blog, too.

Race: Bridal Veil 10 K (6.214 Miles) 00:34:25, Place overall: 2
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.540.000.006.4621.00

A.M. Ran the Bridal Veil 10 K, 2nd place in 34:25.

Jeff and I were timing the race, so we ran it as well as part of our Saturday workout. We warmed up a bit over 4 miles. It was windy, the wind was blowing out of the Provo Canyon, which meant head wind for the first 3+ miles. We did a couple of strides to gage the wind. On the first one we ran 43 seconds for 200 uphill into a headwind. On the second one we ran 37 downhill with a tailwind.

Got to the start, found some competition. Bryan Summers, a coach at West Jordan High, 4:35 miler, winner of the Salt Lake 5 K this year (16:31), one of the 4 runners who saved the male field from being chicked by Emily Jameson. He was wearing the Wasatch Running Center uniform, my former sponsor, to make things more interesting.

To better deal with the wind Jeff and I decided to stick together in the first 3 miles trading leads at 1 minute intervals or more often if necessary. So I would push the top end of how fast I was willing to start, while he would push the bottom end of how slow. This meant that I was having a bad day, Jeff could end up 10 seconds slower that he should have from starting too slow, and if Jeff was having a good day I would end up 10 seconds slower from starting too fast. But that was OK, since this was a low profile race with no prize money. And in any case, the cooperation against the wind would wipe out the losses anyway, so it was all good.

We did everything according to the plan. Official mile markers were not exceptionally accurate, but not too bad either. I ran that race a year ago, and it came out 6.21 on my GPS as well as on Ted's. I did not wear a GPS this time, and was going off the official mile markers as well as the triangles on the trail to double check on occasion. First mile was officially 5:41, second 5:59. Brian was still with us. He sat behind the first 1.8 miles, and then moved up. That was good, I did not have to take my turn, nor did Jeff. At around 2.2 Bryan was done leading, and Jeff moved up, but the wind was so strong he asked me to help. So I moved up, did what I could, then Jeff took over again. As Jeff turned up the heat, I started moaning, and we dropped Bryan. The wind died down a bit, so Jeff was OK putting more fuel into the fire while running up front. Our third mile was 6:13, but it was probably long. We did hit bad gusts, but they were not any worse than in the second mile, and the climb was about the same level of steepness.

Shortly after 3 we hit the turnaround. I moved up for a little bit, but then Jeff took over again and now was going full steam. Things started getting miserable for me, but I wanted to be with Jeff for as long as possible, because I knew that once I was left alone I would not have the drive to push. We hit the next "mile" in 4:51, which was definitely short, probably by the same amount as the third mile was long. Shortly after 4 I lost concentration and Jeff was gone. From then on I ran in survival mode, but it was still decent. Next mile was 5:18, which was probably right (and it agreed with the triangles), followed by 5:23 that was long, and 1:00 to the finish, which was definitely short as I was not kicking that hard. I ended up beating my last year time by 1:10, which I was pleased with. Some of it came from working with Jeff, but I think some of it came from being in better shape. Jeff won with 33:46, Bryan was third with 36:28.

We timed the race, and then went to run the rest of the miles. Ran another 7.6, found Bryan shortly after we started, and he joined us. We did a fair share of FRB propaganda on him, hopefully it will bear fruit. Total of 18 miles for the run.

P.M. 1 with Julia in regular walking shoes in 9:32, then 2 with Benjamin in Five Fingers in 17:18 with Jenny doing the first 1.5 with us in 13:15.

T4 Racer - 108.76 miles

Five Fingers - 209.63 miles


Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From wheakory on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 13:59:57

Nice race Sasha. It's always good to better your time on the same course. Do you like the T4 Racer's?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 14:08:36

Kory - yes, they are OK. I took the insoles out to make them lighter.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

A day of rest. Went to church. Stayed awake. Having to teach in the Elders Quorum helped. This also helped me remember a mission experience. My companion and I sat on the stand during a sacrament meeting rather tired as I hoped that we would have a dynamic speaker that day. Falling asleep on the stand would be rather embarrassing. Then I remembered that I was the speaker. But still I managed to fall asleep during my companion's talk.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Comments
From wheakory on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 13:55:18

Do you feel tired most of the time on Sunday's? I have to get up early on Sunday's to help do our worship music. I haven't had to preach for a while so I don't have too big of a part there too much anymore.

Sasha, I think it's a wonderful discipline you have made not to run races on Sunday. I myself have a problem running a race and missing church on a Sunday. I've done it and felt bad and might do it again, but it does really make me think. It's something that I really have to look hard at and decide what's important. Were not here to just run but to spread God's word and have a deep relationship with him. I wanted to commend you on your choice.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 14:07:04

Kory - on Sunday I tell my body to rest, and it is anxious once I let it. So it shuts down pretty good. Sometimes things get busy with church and family, but I make sure to take a nap in the afternoon if at all possible.

From wheakory on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 14:24:01

I think that's my problem even though I don't usually run on Sunday, unless I want the dog to get some exercise my body just shuts down. I feel week and fatigue the whole day regardless if I take a nap or not. Have you experienced this?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 14:51:22

Yes, I do feel sluggish, but that is OK. It means your body is taking the required rest. No need to wake it up, let it rest.

From josse on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 15:03:07

I feel this way on sundays, I call it my running hangover. I feel tired, get a bad headache, and just want to sleep. But I think it is very important to take sundays (or at least one day a week) as a day of rest. Our bodies will only thank us.

From wheakory on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 15:17:40

It's funny how the nervous system just shuts down when it knows your not going to go aerobic or anaerobic. My body just doesn't want to do much of anything, but there's things I have to get on Sunday, so I don't completely rest. There's always yard work if I don't get it done on Saturday.

Also I eat different on Sunday's where I eat breakfast then a huge meal after church at about 2pm, and then I don't eat the rest of the day, because I'm so full. This might be an affect on my body.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.600.750.750.0020.10

A.M. 15.1 in 1:57:32. Started with Jeff and Hyrum. Then Matt joined us briefly. Dropped Hyrum off at 4. He did have quite a pick up on the last quarter, it was 1:32 with the last 100 in 18. He made a resolution that he would not eat on a training day (Mon-Sat) until he ran. With as much as he likes to eat, this would hopefully get him to run more regularly.

After than ran with Jeff and he realized he needed to get his car back to his wife so she'd make it to work on time. So we picked up the pace. We figured we needed to run 6:40 for 4.5 miles. That sounded tedious. We were going 6:20, then 6:10 at first. Then I figured if we just hammer a mile and a half, we can relax at the end. So we gradually picked up to a little under 6:00. Saw the new blogger Luz on the trail. Then we picked it up even more, ran 0.5 in 2:51 followed by 2:45, 5:36 for the mile. It hurt more than it should have. Some of it could be the fatigue from the 10 K, but some is probably just because it is hard to run fast in Five Fingers because you cannot pound the ground as hard. But that is OK, good practice running fast without pounding the ground.

Dropped Jeff off at 10, he moved his car and rejoined me for another 2 miles at 11.5. Then I finished the run alone.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:36, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:21, 2 with Benjamin in 16:40, and 0.5 alone. 

Five Fingers - 229.73 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Sweetiepie on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 14:39:45

Thanks for your comment. I don't walk when I run, I only walked this morning due to my daughter coming along. I have a question about running 6 days a week. I am overweight, won't that be hard on my knees (which have been a problem in the past)? I run 5 days a week now, with Fridays off (day before long run) and Sundays (day after long run). Is that not sufficient?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 15:01:18

It is odd that running 5 days a week you are still overweight. I would suspect two problems:

a) Because of the weight and the knee stress you cannot run far or fast enough to burn the calories you are eating

b) Your diet is less than ideal

To fix a) keep your running routine the same, but add some biking on top of it. If possible, ride up a small grade. Make sure you are breathing fairly hard the entire time, do not make it a leisurely ride, but at the same time keep it controlled enough to where you are able to do it for an hour.

To fix b) start with "if I know it is bad I do not eat it, no excuses, no exceptions", and go from there.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.603.250.250.0020.10

A.M. Ran with Daniel, Jeff, Michelle, and Josse. We warmed up and then did the tempo. Josse and Daniel just did a brisk mile, Daniel stayed with us, Josse fell back a bit. Jeff and I paced Michelle at 6:00 pace on the Provo River 5 Mile Tempo until she could not go anymore. She hoped to make it to 3, I had suspicions that she could go longer than that and told her we would try to make it to 5 miles. She laughed at me as if she had been 90 years old and had just been told she could have a child.

After 2.62 of warmup we started the tempo. Knowing the importance of proper pacing to maximize the distance that Michelle could hold the pace for I checked the splits nearly every 1/16th of a mile to make sure we were hitting them as close as possible. First mile was 5:58 followed by a 5:59. No "give me five" were necessary to keep Michelle on pace until we've done a 180 and had to get back to speed. 18:00 at 3 miles, 6:03 with a 180. She did the next quarter in 1:29, and after that mentally lost some steam because in her mind she was done. I tried to convince her to go longer but she was too stubborn, and we did not have $100 per quarter on pace in the FRB budget to keep her going. Not yet, at least. She stopped at 3.625 mark slowing down to 1:35 quarter followed by a 1/8 in 48.

Finished 13 with Jeff and Michelle, then added another 2.1.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:40, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:10, 2.5 by myself in 19:26. Pushed Jacob the entire run.

Five Fingers - 249.83 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From MichelleL on Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 23:30:22

It's all about the incremental gains, Sasha. I went 48% farther today than back in December so I am guessing that's a-ok. You are right though I could have gone a little farther. Next time I'll do better. Thanks so much for helping me through it.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.850.250.000.0020.10

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff early in the morning in 1:19:32.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:51, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:13, 2 with Benjamin in 16:35, 5.5 alone in 40:59. 

Five Fingers - 269.92 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.900.000.000.6020.50

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Daniel. Did a 200 meter time trial on the BYU track in the middle of a 16 mile run. It was not the best day for a sprint time trial - the track was wet and there was an odd wind blowing on the curve. And we had been doing distance on top of everything with very little sprinting. But it was OK, since all three of us had to deal with the same issues, and I just wanted to know the differences in all out speed rather off distance training than a true all out speed potential. Did 4x100 for a warm-up, missed the first, second in 16.6, then 15.3 and 15.6. Then ran a 200 racing each other with a jogging start. Jeff got 27.1, I got 30.0, Daniel was right there with me. Decided to see if we'd be faster the second time around. Jeff did 28.0, me 30.4, Daniel 30.5. Then did a control 100 meters staying together on purpose to see the differences in self-timing. I got 17.6, Jeff got 17.3 even though we ran together.

T4 Racer -  124.78 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:09, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:23, 2 with Benjamin in 17:45. 

Five Fingers -  274.42 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.67Total Sleep Time: 8.42
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 15:54:54

Nice run Sasha. I really believe with the high mileage your doing your marathon times are going to improve from last year.

I really wished I lived in Provo because I would love to run with you guys every morning. That's how much I love running.

I think sometimes to get faster it's an advantage to have someone run with you that can push you.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 16:09:23

Kory - we could probably find a job for you at Novell or some start-up in the area. Let me know if you are interested, I hear from recruiters about once a month on average.

From wheakory on Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 18:15:55

Right offer Sasha I would be interested. There's really not any dedicated groups here that help to prove your running. We have a small running group, but mostly for beginners, and it's only a Saturday run that they do.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 18:17:21

E-mail me your resume.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.701.300.000.0020.00

A.M. 15 miles. Total time 1:58:36. Started with Daniel and Jeff. Matt joined us. Did some VPB pickups, thus 1.3 miles of marathon pace. Dropped Jeff and Daniel at 10.1. Ran a lap around the block with Sarah. Her legs were hurting, so she cut her run short. Went for some more afterwards.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:59, 1.6 with Jenny to the church picnic in 14:13 pushing Jacob and Joseph, then back the scenic way 2.4 still pushing Jacob and Joseph total time for 4 miles was 33:31.

Five Fingers - 294.42 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.67Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.67
Comments
From Hayden on Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 15:46:22

Hey Sasha i will talk to Dave about that. I am running the Summer Games 10k next weekend and Dave might be doing it. But i can do a 10k with him too, or more. I am excited for this relay and yes i would love to be on the White Team. Hey Check out my blog and the training i got this weekend at Fish Lake.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.454.008.600.0024.05

A.M. Did a DesNews specific workout with Jeff. Since he is not running DesNews marathon and is more injury prone than me, we modified his workout a bit to eliminate Squaw Peak decent for him. So he warmed up two miles then met me at my house. We did a leisurely warm-up at around 7:30-7:40 pace to the base of the Squaw Peak road which turned out to be 8.3 miles. The we ran a tempo up Squaw Peak Stairway to Glory. According to the Course Tool, it gains 1694 feet over 4.25 miles, which turns out to be 7.6% grade on average. So basically paved Ragnar leg about 2000 feet lower. My GPS measured 4.29 on the way up and 4.35 on the way down. There were painted marks on the road and the GPS was measuring less than the painted marks on the way up at 4 miles. I imagine we did better tangents that whoever painted the marks. But who cares about the exact distance anyway on a grade that steep - the times and paces are meaningless unless you have a comparison context.

Jeff was having a fun time - had to ease off for me a couple of times to keep the gap smaller, his wife Kimia called him on the phone a couple of times and he talked to her without too much trouble. She was supposed to pick him up at the top and drive him down. So she just wanted to make sure she was going the right way. I was working pretty hard and still could not keep up with Jeff. We were beating the 7:30 guy up to 3 miles, and then the grade got steeper and the elevation increased as well. So we slowed down to 8:00 pace. The last quarter was miserable - the grade is the steepest there. I ran it in 2:16, Jeff already had a gap on me, and he increased it some but not much. My time was 32:37, which is a 20 second PR. Last time I ran it was 2006, and I did get my old PR of 32:57 then.

I rested for a couple of minutes at the top, then Kimia took Jeff down, and I ran another tempo in the opposite direction. The road was wet, and it did matter at faster speeds. Additionally I was not used to the grade of this steepness, had not had enough practice lately. Plus the fatigue of having run 12 miles already was starting to affect me. So 5:00 pace was about all I could do. Was not breathing very hard. Ran the decent in 21:44. In the past with more downhill practice and doing it earlier in the run I've been able to do it a good minute faster. When I did that in the past I was breathing like a mad man and my HR was around 163. On the ascent I could only get 160 until the steep section, and then it got into 162-163 area. Today I did not have an HRM with me, but based on how I felt I would guess by HR was around 163 on the ascent and 155 on the decent.

Met Jeff at the bottom, we jogged to the Provo River trail (about 0.1) and started another tempo. Ran 4 miles down about a 1% grade to Wills Pit Stop where Kimia picked us up. Our time was 23:19 with the last mile in 5:31. That last tempo was hard, my head was fuzzy and the legs did not want to respond, I felt very unmotivated to be sub-6:00 but pushed past the barrier out of a sense of duty. Jeff started turning up the heat on the last mile, and I did not think I had much juice in me, but I was able to zone out, ignore the fatigue and stay with him. The feeling is not a surprise as I was between miles 17 and 21 for the whole run. Good preparation for DesNews.

T4 Racer - 145.83 miles. 

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:50, 1.5 with Benjamin, Jenny, and Jared. Benjamin went ahead and ran 12:40, Jenny got 12:42, I stayed with Jared and we did 12:55. I pushed Jacob in the single stroller. Then ran another 0.5 with Jared in 4:28, Benjamin ran ahead and did 3:55, total of 16:35 for 2 miles for Benjamin.

Five Fingers - 297.42 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Hayden on Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 23:37:31

Hey i left you a message on yesterday's just in case you didn't get it. Here is a reminder.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Eventful Sunday. Sore quads from yesterday, but that was to be expected. In fact, the level of soreness exactly according to the plan. Still makes chasing kids difficult.

Jacob was being fussy in the sacrament meeting, so Sarah told me to take him out. He calmed down while I was carrying him, so I just sat down on a back row. I tried to pay attention to the talks, they were good, but I missed the second talk almost entirely due to a special spiritual experience with the code name of Lehi's dream. The problem is that I cannot sleep past 6 AM any more. But I do very well later in the morning :-)


Taught a class in Sunday school, and then Sarah reminded me that Benjamin had a talk in Primary, and we totally spaced it out, and he was not prepared. So I went to fix that. His talk went OK aside from the fact that he did not think so and hid behind a chair after he finished it. Some interesting behavior from a guy that can average 6:50 pace in a 5 K. He also can boast being spoon fed at breakfast the day after he broke the 8:00 mile (he was a month away from his 6th birthday then). I suppose we all progress at different rates in different areas.

Got a good nap in the afternoon.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From James W on Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 14:45:36

I think I had a little "Lehi's Dream" spiritual experience of my own in priesthood yesterday - unfortunately I was holding my pocket pc at the time and accidentally dropped it (how embarrasing). Luckily for me, it was protected by a metal rhinoskin case . . . interestingly, just after that experience, I actually had some insights to add to the lesson . . .

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 14:52:36

I used to embarrass Sarah by trying to add insights to the class discussion during my Lehi's dream when we were taking a humanities class together at BYU.

From James W on Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 14:58:11

Don't get me started on embarrasing situations - one time I fell asleep during sacrament meeting when Lybi and I were either going out or engaged (I don't remember which) when the sacrament was being passed, and woke up with a start, kicking the chair in front of me. The people in front of us started laughing so hard they dropped the sacrament tray . . .

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 15:02:43

I am always concerned that the sacrament tray is going to get dropped one day when it gets to us with all the children doing odd movements. So far it has not yet happened.

From MichelleL on Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 15:09:58

Paul calls it "Closing my eyes, so I can concentrate on the talk." Now that I lead music in sacrament meeting he gets to wrestle the three boys instead. Some callings help the spouse grow!

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 15:27:33

Some men are hopeless. Sarah is the ward organist, but I can still fall asleep while sitting with all five children. Maybe I should post on the Bragging Board that I can handle five children nine and under in church alone in my sleep :-)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. Quads still sore. Worse than after any marathon except DesNews. Which was exactly the purpose of the workout on Saturday, so no complaints about that.

Ran 8 with Jeff and Daniel. Matt joined us en route for a portion. Then did 2.1 around the block with Jeff, and 5 more alone. Total time was 1:56:45. A little faster at the end than normal, last 5 miles in 36:33. I think I am getting used to Five Fingers, faster pace is not as painful on the feet as it used to be (which was the reason for running 8:00 pace on most of the runs in the last three weeks). I am excited about this. I figured running in the Five Fingers will either injure something or correct something. I was not sure which direction it was going for a while, as the right foot sometimes would hurt, but it never got worse, and I could not feel anything in racing flats, so I figured keep trying. I think the right foot is starting to straighten out.

Measured the sizes of various parts of the leg with Jeff. Measurements in inches. Lower shin, thinnest part - Jeff 7.5, me 8.375. Calf, the widest part, flexed - both 14.5 inches. Quad, widest part, flexed - me 21 inches, Jeff - 20 inches. Wrist - both 6.5 inches.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:58. Then pushed Jacob in the single stroller for the rest of the run. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:59, then another 0.5 with Benjamin in 3:58, and 2 with no running kids in 15:43. 

Five Fingers - 312.52 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.33Total Sleep Time: 8.33
Comments
From josse on Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:29:00

Hey if you are needing a runner for WBR me and Michelle where thinking Steve from Heber would be a good person, his blog is cutika99. He is a fasty.

From Jon on Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:31:52

He's already on the team...

From josse on Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:32:50

Oh didn't know for sure. He is new to the blog so we had no idea.

From Jon on Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:35:23

Yeah, next we may recruit you or Michelle if we can't stop all these injuries...

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.400.000.700.0020.10

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Josse, and Matt. Total distance was 15.1 in 1:55:57. Did a VPB pickup - 0.5 in 2:41. It felt easier than it ever has in Five Fingers. I also noticed that the balls of my feet are developing pretty thick callouses. Some natural padding.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:48. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:50, then 0.5 with Benjamin in 3:36, then pushed Jacob and Joseph in the double stroller for two miles - 15:43.

Five Fingers - 332.62 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.050.000.500.6020.15

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Matt. We did some sprints. 2x100 15.3, 15.2. Then 200 in 31.3, and 2x100 14.6, 15.3. Because we jogged so slowly in between, and because of how much we got into a conversation, our time at 10.1 was 1:24:08, I think we earned the title of boltuny, which would be the masculine plural of boltushka. Then I ran 5.05 alone in 34:47 with a 0.5 pickup in the middle at 5:20 pace. The magic mark 0.5 into the pickup was erased, but I hit the first quarter in 1:21, and was 2:20 with 1/16th to go. It felt very good. The reason I did this pickup was that for some reason 7:00 pace felt hard. I wanted to see if there was a real problem or if I was just being lazy. 5:20 felt nice and relaxed, I felt like I could hold it forever.

T4 Racer - 160.98 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:56, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 11:57, 0.5 more with Benjamin in 3:48, 2 alone in 13:43.

Five Fingers - 337.62 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From wheakory on Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 13:53:56

Wouldn't it be nice if you could feel like you could hold a 5:20 forever in a marathon. Although, you've almost done it and it can still happen.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.956.250.000.0020.20

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Tyler. Jeff was running easy because is running in Sound to Narrows and wants to be reasonably fresh. Tyler and I did a tempo run. The plan was to measure how long Tyler can handle 5:40 pace going up to 7.5 miles but no more. I wore Five Fingers, which made 5:40 pace a challenge for me as well.

We warmed up 3.88. The warmup was brisk. We put over a minute on the 8:00 guy. This is brisk by our new boltun standards. I think Tyler was the pace pushing element. If you leave Jeff and me alone, and we are talking, the pace can be easily slower than 8:00 until we realize we need to get home in time.

Went through the first 200 in 43, it felt brisk, and I said to myself - done with 1/60th of the run. Then after a quarter I said, done with 1/30th, and that felt better. First mile in 5:38, then 5:39. Felt hard. Lost concentration before the turnaround, and lost all of the lead on the 5:40 guy. 14:10 at 2.5. OK, done with 1/3, that sounds a lot better. Pushed the gas pedal to get back on pace, overdid it a bit, started hitting 1:23 quarters. Tyler seemed to be OK, so I figured we'd just keep the pace. 16:58 at 3 miles (5:41), 22:31 at 4 (5:33). Wow, almost done, and I am feeling stronger than I was earlier. I think the increasing proximity of the finish was progressively cheering me up. Noticed that if I tense the ankle and the glut I get a very good push off without making the feet hurt.

At 4.5 Tyler started feeling tired and said he only wanted to do 5. I said more. He said 6. I said 6.25. He said OK. We hit 5 in 28:13 (5:42), then did a 180 and were 33:57 at 6 (5:44), and finished 6.25 in 35:22, that would be 35:09 for the 10 K, which is a PR for Tyler. I set all kinds of Five Finger PRs as well - I think all distances 1 mile through 10 K.

Found Jeff on the trail afterwards, cooled down together. Dropped Tyler off 12.75 into the run, he threw up shortly after stopping, first time he threw up after a run. He is now a proud member of the elite Clyde/Logan vomit on the run club. Jeff and I ran loops around the block to add extra distance. I ended up with 15.2 for the run.

P.M - 1 with Julia in 9:52, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:54, 2.5 alone in 18:39. 

Five Fingers - 357.47 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.25
Comments
From James on Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 16:04:12

I love my Five Fingers on the grass but I don't think I could handle them on the road like you do. And not for a 6 mile tempo run!

From jtshad on Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 16:29:44

Yeah, but Tyler didn't scare people like Clyde did...unless he tried to get you?

From wheakory on Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 16:42:43

I tempo run in five fingers on the road that's impressive Sasha. Way to be good coach and push Tyler to achieve a great run.

From JeffC on Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:06:45

I think I know the reason why I am slow to improve my times....I have never puked during or after a run....must not be running hard enough...:)

From Logan on Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:16:48

I didn't know that we now have a vomit on the run club. We should have t-shirts made up!

From Lybi on Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 15:27:32

Interesting what you said about tensing your ankle and your gluts running fast in Five Fingers. One of the biggest differences I've noticed running barefoot is that the gluts are more active in the push-off stage. Well, good--it's a darn big muscle. About time it did something other than just make it hard to find jeans that fit.

Poor Tyler, but good for him! That's a really nice PR.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.020.000.000.0020.02

A.M. 15.02 in 1:50:56, first three with Tyler, the rest alone. Jeff is flying to Washington to see his family and to run Sound to Narrows 12 K.

P. M. 5 in 40:59, including first 1.32 to the library with Benjamin, Jenny, Julia, and Jared. Jared is not our kid, he is Ted's son, he is with us for a sleepover. Ran into Daniel and ran with him some as well.

Five Fingers - 377.49 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Hayden on Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 15:50:00

That is cool i ran as fast as him. I am really excited about this race and Wasatch Back. Hey my calves are pretty tight and sore now today though. Do you have any advise to fully recover these calves.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 16:00:05

Better ask Josse. She know more about this stuff.

Race: Heart of Holladay 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:16:38, Place overall: 9
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.000.000.003.1120.11

A.M. Ran Heart of Holladay 5 K in 16:38, 9th place. The race was very competitive as expected. The whole family came. It does not happen very often anymore due to the difficulty of bringing everybody at an early hour. But Benjamin and Jenny were racing, and Sarah wanted to go to a special discount grocery store (NPS) in Salt Lake, so we all came.

Warmed up 2 miles. The gun went off, and I really did not like being in a 5 K. I wanted it to be a 10 K. But you cannot place high in the circuit without running 5 Ks, and we were also doing a campaign for Kim to get into St. George, so I was there. Plus a little push and a kick in the pants a hard 5 K gives you is good once in a while. A fairly sizeable pack pulled away. I considered going with them, but then I saw that Nate Hornok and Matt Harmer were going out a little slower, and I fell for the temptation to run with them. The slow start was right for them but wrong for me. They would later be strong on the uphill if they started slow, but I would run it at the same pace regardless of how I started. I knew that, but I erred on the side of laziness anyway. First mile in 5:14 instead of a more appropriate 5:08 on a slight rolling uphill.

The second mile starts with a slight up, then goes down, and flattens out. Matt dropped back a bit, we passed James Moore (Fiddy), Nate pulled me up closer to Steve Ashbaker, John Coles, and Dave Spence. Josh Steffen was a bit ahead of them, then Dennis Simonaitis and Alexander Thomas together, and Teren Jameson ahead of everyone. I caught a 3 K split - 9:41. By that time Nate was starting to press the pace, and I was barely hanging on. The feeling was odd, though previously experienced and expected. I felt like if I eased off by as little as 5 seconds a mile I could race a 15 K or maybe even a half. But I could not find 5 seconds a mile within me to run one more mile 5 seconds faster. In theory you should be able to address that with speed work. In practice, what has happened in the past is that speed work does help me keep the gap between the half and the 5 K pace bigger, but mostly because the half is slower. I gain 10-15 seconds in a 5 K and lose a minute in the half compared to high mileage, and no speed work other than occasional tempos and races.

2 miles in 10:25 (5:11). That is encouraging. Not 10:25, but 5:11 after 5:14. Maybe the momentum would help be get up the hill at a good pace. Well, we hit the uphill. I did not feel too miserable. But I could not go any faster. Nate pulled away like there was no tomorrow. But that time I had passed Steve, but everybody else was still ahead. Matt Harmer went by, and I could not latch on him. I closed the gap on John Cole a bit. Once it flattened out I pulled up to him, he pressed harder and dropped me, I pulled up again, he pressed again and dropped me, I reeled him in, 3 miles in 16:04 (uphill mile in 5:39, unspectacular but not exceptionally horrible). I was about to pass him, and thought for a moment the deal was done and was planning a forward lean at the finish line, but then he found another gear and beat me by a second. My time on the watch was 16:36, officially 16:38. Others:

Teren 15:18, Dennis 15:44, Alexander 15:56, Nate 16:02 (his last 1.1 split was 5:38, same as Teren's), Josh 16:07, Dave 16:19, Matt 16:25, John 16:37, Steve 16:48, James 16:52.

Went back to pace Benjamin (9 years old). His back and muscles all over the body have been hurting lately (growth pains?) so I was not expecting much. He toughed it out and finished in 22:09, 2nd place in his age division (1-11) after Alexander Berry who got 21:23. Jenny goofed off today. I think she is still too little to run well without a pacer. When I found her, she was jogging along (without much effort) with a 6 year old girl at around 8:30 pace. I suppose Jenny was feeling overwhelmed by the adult crowd and decided to just run alongside a little kid. I told her to speed up, which she did, but not enough to drop her. They both started flying by the adult crowd. Jenny's 6 year old competitor was quite a speedy girl. At the end Jenny pulled ahead of her competitor, which gave her third place in her age division (1-11) and 26:19 for the time, which is quite a bit slower than what she was capable of. We'll try again in another race, this time I'll be there start to finish. Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that even with this level of effort Jenny (7 years old) would have gotten an age division award in a number of non-master adult age divisions.

On the positive side, our blogger Kim Lee who we put on the forms got into St. George. This is good not only for Kim but also for the blog. Will make it easier to convince race directors to advertise their races with us.

Passed out the FRB/St. George Running Center cards. Benjamin, Jenny, and especially Julia helped. Then ran a short cool down. Will run more tonight.

T4 Racer - 168.59 miles.

P.M. 1.1 with Julia in 11:14, then 11.5 with Daniel in 1:19:32. We kept it brisker than normal, but still within an acceptable range. The temperatures were in the 80s. The asphalt was warm and soft and I could feel it in Five Fingers. So sub-7:00 happened more naturally than it normally does when it is only 50-60 degrees and the asphalt is hard. Interestingly enough, I was not the only creature that liked warm asphalt today. We saw a short green snake warming itself on the trail and I jumped over it. Ran at 5:30 pm, had no food or drink since about 1:30 pm, but I was not feeling either hungry or thirsty, so I decided to see how well I will do in the heat off blood volume. Did OK, could not feel the heat very much.

Five Fingers - 390.19 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From marion on Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 17:59:47

I am just amazed at you all! Really, this blog has been a godsend for me! So much inspiration and encouragement all in one little cyberspace! Thanks so much for making this available to even us polkier new folk. (think fast- be fast- think fast- be fast :) oh yeah, and run, run, run!

From Seth on Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 20:38:15

Sasha, my cell phone was dead so I didn't call you. I just got back from Lake Powell and had planned on racing, but I have a terrible cold and thought it would be unwise to race. Looks like you did a great job at the race. I still don't have anything from St. George Running Center.

From Michael on Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 21:05:51

It was nice to see you and your running family. Alexander had fun talking with Benjamin after the race. Great effort and time - thanks for the encouragement

From Kim on Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 22:11:48

Thank you Sasha for running in my name! What support I feel from friends and family! To have Benjamin and Jenny running for me also made me cry! When cute little Jenny came up to me and said, "Hi Kim" and talked to me about running for me I just wanted to squeeze her! Will you and fast running mommy give her and Benjamin a little squeeze from me?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.051.000.000.0020.05

A.M. Ran with Jeff. First 10.1 in 1:09:09. Then ran 0.35 with Sarah and the rest alone. Saw that I was behind the 7:00 guy by 25 seconds with 2 mile to go and decided to beat him with the minimal casualties. Ran a mile in 5:56 to make him give up, then jogged the rest of the way. 1:44:42 for 15 miles.

Did some more limb measurements with Jeff. Was about an inch longer than him in the thigh length as well as the shin length. In the earlier measurements my quad was an inch bigger in circumference in the widest part. We measured the narrowest part near the knee. I was 15.5 inches, he had only 13.5. I think we finally got to the reason why my quads look so big. They are actually rather normal width for the length of the thigh, but unusually wide in the lower thigh by the knee. My vastus medialis looks a lot bigger than Jeff's.

P.M. 1.2 with Julia to the park in 12:00 with Benjamin and Jenny following on their bikes. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny running in 12:58. Then 2.35 in 17:41 with Benjamin and Jenny on their bikes in the last 1.2.  

Five Fingers - 410.24 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From James on Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 22:01:01

What are you doing for a run tomorrow?

From James on Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 23:54:43

Thanks for calling me. If I can roll out of bed at 5:00am I will come. If not then I'll hook up with you guys another time.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.930.000.001.1220.05

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Josse. Jeff and I did an interesting workout. The target was to go 73 seconds per quarter until I could not hold the pace, then once the failure became obvious finish at the closest quarter mark. The first quarter was right on target - 73. On the second one Jeff put a bit too much pepper on my plate - 70. No wonder it felt so hard - I began to think wow, my anaerobic capabilities are so bad that I can barely make it to 0.5 doing 73s? Hit the 0.625 mark (a bit over 1 K) in 3:00, that was good. Then 3:37 at 0.75 (74). Around that point I started falling apart. No heavy legs, just all of a sudden cannot go, and do not understand why. That was not good. Next quarter was 78, stopped at the mile in 4:55.

What was interesting about the experience is that the boundary between, well, I can do this for a while and no this is not sustainable for more than another quarter was very thin. Which is expected when you do purely aerobic training, and is actually good in the marathon because the moment you start running too fast it hurts enough to alert you to the problem. With some anaerobic training I could of course train myself to sustain 73s for longer. But that would do me no good in the marathon. I want to be more aerobic at that pace, and sufficiently aerobic at 5:00 pace to make it through the 5 mile tempo. How do we do that? Big mystery, exciting mystery.

Here is an idea - find out a way to shut down the anaerobic gear without shutting the nervous system down with it, and do some high volume speed work as fast as the aerobic gear will let you.

For the rest of the run we ran easy with Josse and had her do 2x100. She did the first in 16.4, and the second in 16.6. Dropped Josse off, went around the block twice while Jeff went to the bathroom, then ran another 4.25 with Jeff. Total of 15.05.

T4 Racer- 183.64 miles. 

P.M.1 with Julia in 9:55, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:55, 2.5 alone in18:29.

Five Fingers - 415.29 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.67Total Sleep Time: 7.92
Comments
From Katie on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 08:06:38

Two years ago when I was doing regularly 120-140 mile weeks, I maintained hurdle drills (high stepping, leg swings, ect) and 1x wk, high volume short intervals to maintain turnover/speed/flexibility. I think they were mainly aerobic, never hard. I started with 20 x 200/200 rec and built to 30 x 400 with 200 recovery. I wore a watch to keep track, but the point was to finish and recover and train the next day, so it wasn't too fast.

Is this what you mean by "high volume speed work....?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 13:20:24

Something like this would work if you could guarantee that while trying to maximize the slow twitch fiber recruitment you would not start cheating by engaging fast twitch. You can do something to wear your fast twitch fibers out so that they will be too tired to get recruited (e.g run first few reps very hard and keep the rest very short), but at the same time you will shut down the nervous system and your slow twitch will not be getting recruited very well either. So in other words, you'll just run too slow. I am thinking of the following:

2 or 3 times 2.5 mile reps starting at 6:00 pace then gradually winding down to 5:00 pace at the end. So we put the fast twitch fibers to sleep, and gradually increase the pace hoping that when we reach the critical threshold the body will still think recruit slow twitch, and we can recruit slow twitch fibers at a greater rate than if we just started at 5:00 pace. Also, there are some mechanisms of energy supply that would not be available after 5 minutes of brisk aerobic running so this should discourage fast twitch recruitment as well.

From Jon on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 13:36:43

If you nervous system is shut down, wouldn't you be brain dead?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 13:55:28

Shut down is a relative term, of course. It is not completely shut down, of course, but sufficiently unwilling to signal the muscles to contract where you are limited to running a slower pace even though your muscles could do better if they could get a better signal.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.800.800.000.0020.60

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Daniel. Daniel went 10.1, Jeff ran 14.1. I added another mile. Total of 1:55:55 for 15.1. 0.8 of marathon pace is due to VPB intervals.

Jeff has been officially appointed as the chorister and the lead singer in Van1 for the performance of Bingo on my legs. We practiced a bit today trying to figure out the appropriate beat frequency.

P.M. Errand jogging - 0.5 miles. 2.5 alone in 18:25, 1 with Julia in 10:49, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:57.

Five Fingers - 435.39 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Ashleigh on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 16:42:35

What, where? Sorry, I'm new. I don't have the hang of this yet.

From Michelle on Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 22:40:21

Sasha, How do you get the live web cast of the Wasatch Back? Or rather how do you view it?

From jtshad on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:33:37

Dang, we have to sing...again!

From Superfly on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:35:49

Michelle- Mik'L will be staying home and I'll be calling here with updates and then she will post them on her blog.

From seth on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:43:10

I hope there isn't too much singing in van 2, because I have a terrible voice.

From Jon on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:49:57

No worries, Seth- Sasha is the only guy who requires singing. And I have to say, Sasha, I won't mind NOT having to sing bingo to you because I get annoyed with that song if it is stuck in my head.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 13:35:22

Clyde - it would be better if she did it on the forum. Makes it easier to find it. I can create a thread and make it sticky, and also link to it from all blogs. Is she OK with taking calls from all 4 vans?

From Superfly on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 13:54:18

She says she will do it. So you'll have to send her a description of what you want done and such.

From Hayden on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 13:56:44

Man what am i getting myself into.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.400.000.600.0014.00

A.M. Started with Daniel. About 3.7 into the run we caught up to Luz and invited her to join us. Paced her through a mile in 8:02. Then she did not slow down much after that, so we just stayed with her for the whole 8. She ran with us all the way to my house, which gave Sarah a training partner to run as well afterwards. Total time for 8 was 1:06:18.

A bit later a mile with Julia in 8:46.

P.M. 2.5 alone in 18:07, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:53.

Five Fingers - 447.39 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.25
Comments
From luzylew on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 15:14:29

That was a real treat for me. First to be pushed a little-- I could do more miles at that pace, but I'm going to practice the things you told me to do so I can build up to doing it more freqently (or put it to use in a race where it belongs). It was exciting (after the fact of course)to know it didn't kill me to push it a bit. If I had known I'd get this little treat today, I would have left the dogs behind! I loved running with Sarah too. You guys are great. Good luck at the Wasatch Back! May the good energy you loaned me this morning repay you in kind. Thanks again!

From Maria on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 15:27:58

Did Julia really run an 8:46 mile? Wow, very impressive. She is only 5, right? Was it a training run for her, or a "race"?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 16:33:16

She's actually run 8:29 before with fairly erratic pacing. She went through the first quarter in 1:55, then panicked because she realized she was going further than she thought and threw a fit, ran the next quarter in 2:18, then somewhat calmed down and finished with 2:10, and 2:06 while chatting. She is 5, turning 6 in September. Unlike Benjamin and Jenny at her age, she is still mentally not there to run to her true physical potential. I imagine she could quite easily go under 8:00 if she focused. Benjamin ran 7:58 mile a month before turning 6. Jenny ran 7:41 around that age holding onto the stroller. I do not know how much that helped if at all, but since she absolutely refused to run at that time without holding onto the stroller, I do not know what she was capable of.

Race: Wasatch Back Relay (180.5 Miles) 17:54:16, Place overall: 2
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.000.007.400.0014.40

A.M. 2.5 in 17:29 by myself, 1 with Julia in 9:46, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:07.

Five Fingers - 452.39 miles.

P.M. Ran leg 5 in 47:59. Details to follow.

Now the details. BYU finally put together a real team. Good for us. Will hopefully teach us to be humble, and will hopefully help us get a better appreciation for Quality X and the importance of developing it if we want to run in the OTQ range.

Before the race James and Cody entered some data into Paul's spreadsheet. Whatever came out was called the original projection. I adjusted the flat places, made a few adjustments to the calculations and then went through it leg by leg and manually adjusted the predictions that I felt were still way off to more reasonable values. The new projections were called Sasha Science projections. Interestingly enough, the original projection said we would finish in 17:39:35, while Sasha Science said 17:39:38 - essentially the same end result, but lots of leg time variations. Both ended up quite a bit off, although for different reasons.

First leg. Jeff McClellan on the White Team, Mitch Zundell on the Blue Team, Kyle Perry on the BYU team, and Mike Vick from Runner's Corner. 90-95 degrees at the start. To add a little bit of drama - Jeff ran for BYU before his mission as a walk-on, then after his mission got cut. So he had something to prove. He hit his first mile in 5:05 (uphill), followed by 5:18, 5:27, 5:53 (uphill), 5:53 (uphill). He finished his leg in 28:28 which was 5.14 miles, 5:32 average. Not bad for uphill (0.2 grade, 132 feet of loss, 192 feet of gain) and 90 degrees. 26:32 for Kyle, 27:42 for Mike. His Sasha Science projection was 29:08. The original projection was 31:00. Mitch finished in 29:40, very good for being out of shape. Another reminder of the importance of Quality X.

Second leg. Hayden Hawks on our team against Nate Ogden (BYU) and Jared Kelly (Runner's Corner). Hayden struggled with the heat but still managed 39:44 for 6.73 miles, 5:54 average. Not bad for 90 degrees and 0.7% net uphill grade with 292 feet of gain and 192 feet of loss. His Sasha Science projection was 39:30, his original projection was 41:19. Jared ran very well and gapped Hayden by a couple of minutes. Probably about the same gap for Nate. So we were about 4 minutes behind BYU at this point.

Third leg. 5.65 miles. 0.3% uphill, 42 feet of loss, 275 feet of gain. Iain Hunter for BYU, a girl for Runner's Corner (UVU runner, I think), and Tyler for us. Tyler started out as expected, first two miles at 5:45 pace. Passed the Runner's Corner girl, after that we never saw Runner's Corner. Then a 5:57, and then something really odd happened. 6:24, and 6:45. This should not have happened even in 90 degrees and dehydrated. Maybe 6:10 and 6:20 at the very worst. I told him he needs to eat like a heart patient, lots of fiber, very minimal to no cholesterol. Something somewhere is wrong. Tyler toughed it out and finished in 34:42, 6:08 average. His Sasha Science projection was 33:30, his original projection was 34:43. After he was done he headed straight for the Honey Bucket. I got into one right next to him to address my own needs, and we had a lovely discussion of his leg. On the positive side, he made the first road kill, or in other words, passed a team that started earlier. I thought a fluke, somebody must have gotten a wrong start time, but then there was more road kill on the legs to follow.

Forth leg. 5.09 miles. 0.6% uphill. 315 feet gain, 152 feet loss. Walter Brown on our team against Aaron Robison (BYU). Walter got 31:27, 6:10 pace, Sasha Science projection was 31:37, original was 31:20. Splits: 5:21, 5:45, 6:00, 6:10, 6:22. Cody ran 31:48 last year. Who knows how far behind BYU.

Fifth leg was mine. Avon Pass. 7.41 miles. 2.9% uphill. 1210 feet gain, 54 feet loss. I enjoyed every one of those 54 feet. Ran against Jon Kotter. He showed me what Quality X was all about with a 43:44 against mine 47:59. Sasha Science projection 48:40, original 49:30. Splits - 5:56, 6:13, 6:35, 6:21, 6:33, 6:58, 7:22, next quarter in 1:37 (6:28 pace), last 405 feet in 0:27, 5:56 pace. The leg showed as 7.33 on the GPS. Possibly because of the GPS error, or possibly because I did my tangents very well. 6:33 pace if the GPS was right, 6:29 if the 7.41 distance was right. Paul ran 46:17 last year.

There were some interesting things on that leg. There was a farmer, had a dog, and BINGO was his name, and he was roaming along the road without a leash or an owner in sight. I was in racing mode, and it was a small dog, so I figured if it attacked me I'd give it some James MonaFlash treatment. Passed it without an incident.

More road kill than I expected. Interesting team vehicle - a pickup truck. Actually not a bad idea, makes sleeping easier.

Jeff McClellan demonstrated his singing ability while running at a pace that would make most people throw up. Talents are meant to be shared, and I've been making him practice, so cannot let that go to waste. He sang BINGO to me as he handed me a large bottle of Powerade and ran with me as I took a few sips so he could take it back.

Overall I felt strong, got into good rhythm, used the measly 54 feet of drop very well, the gear box worked when I had to shift.

Leg 6, Jeff Shadley on our team against Tyrell Jensen. 6.92 miles. 3.0 % grade net drop. 277 feet of gain, and 1396 feet of drop. We made a mistake on this leg assignment underestimating the pounding effect of that downhill. It is very nasty - dirt, lots of turns, and a three mile stretch of 8% downhill. More quad-trashing that we realized. Jeff damaged his quads on this leg, and it hurt him for the rest of the relay and threw him off his projections. He ran 39:04, 5:39 pace. Sasha Science projected 37:21, and the original projection was 37:09. Splits: 6:22 (uphill), 6:04 (uphill then start of smoking down), 4:46 (steep downhill on gravel), 4:46 (still steep ), 5:31 (leveling off), 6:01 (flat ), 0.93M-5:33

Error analysis: we should have put Clyde on leg 5, me on leg 6, and Jeff on leg 12.

Iain Hunter told me the gap now was 12:44. I thought it was a compliment to our team that they bothered to time the gap.

T4 Racer - 193.04 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From wheakory on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 18:19:13

Very nice leg Sasha way to put on the gears when you needed it. Did you say you took a whole can of honey with you for refueling?

Very nice performance and detail.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 19:01:57

No, Kory - Honey Bucket was the name of the porta-potty company :-)

From Paul T on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 20:52:55

Thanks for the detailed report. It's a great thing to be able to learn from the elite. You guys are amazing.

I appreciate your comments about Leg 6 being "very nasty - dirt, lots of turns, and a three mile stretch of 8% downhill" and about "underestimating the pounding effect of that downhill". I couldn't have described it better myself. I also ran that leg, although a full minute per mile slower (6:40/mi). Nevertheless, every time I stand up my legs remind me of the punishment I inflicted on them.

From Dallen on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:23:47

Not sure why you ran the uphill leg when your skills are clearly the downhill stuff, and you admit that uphill is your weakness. Either way, well done.

Did you slow down due to fatigue or due to the elevation profile?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:51:56

Elevation profile.

I had to take the uphill leg because of the team dynamics. Even though I am relatively weak on the uphill, the faster runner takes longer legs. Also, I do not run well in the middle of the night, down or up, so I need to be on a leg that has only one night run.

From wheakory on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 21:01:29

Sasha, I don't think any of us perform the best with two night runs. If you had to do two runs at night with the pressure on you would perform well, because your a competitor.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 23:35:49

Jeff McClellan, Tyler, Hayden, Logan, Chad, and Seth were strong on their night legs. Some people are inspired by the moon.

From wheakory on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 23:46:43

I actually felt really strong on my night legs this time around. I learned a lot fro m Del Sol (of course I had more running under my belt this time around). The first one you really can learn from about the amount of sleep, and refueling you need.

The white team did a great job, and they proved it as well as our blue team.

From Dee on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:14:24

We were one of the teams you passed going over Avon. I was the idiot in the back of the pick-up truck who yelled "Sasha" as you ran past us.

Race: Wasatch Back Relay (180.5 Miles) 17:54:16, Place overall: 2
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.370.0010.100.0017.47

A.M. Wasatch Back continues. Leg 17 in 36:43, and Leg 29 in 20:18. Details to follow.

The end of the first shift of Van 1 was followed by a logistical mistake. Instead of getting our rear ends into Kimball's Expedition and hurrying over to the next exchange to sleep we lounged around, and then followed Van 1 of the Blue team to Subway. Mental note. Next time find somebody ideally in Huntsville, less ideally but still good in Eden or Liberty that would not mind having six stinky guys + the driver come and crash at his house. Sleep is critical to success on the second and third legs for everybody, but particularly to the neurologically limited runners, which in my estimate would be about half of our team.

We hurried over to the next exchange, dropped Jeff off in a hurry, dealt with a traffic jam. I am sure glad Jeff is as disciplined and detail oriented as he is, or we would have miffed that exchange. It was dark, lots of teams, you could not see one's face well enough to recognize it. I did not recognize Jon Allen from 5 feet away. He said, how is our team doing? My answer was, "which team?", with the implication of - why in the world do you expect me to know how your team is doing? I do not even know who you are.

Mental note for the future. On the van-to-van hand-off, the first runner in the next van must carry a watch with precise time (or at least now exactly how much off his watch is), and must make sure he is at the exchange at least 5 minutes prior to the time estimate given by the previous van in case a miracle happens or the previous leg turns out to be short. Cell phones sometimes do not work. However, the arrival time is fairly predictable, at least the earliest physically possible arrival time. After that deadline, no potty visits, strides, or anything. Stand there, listen with both ears for the team number, and stare like a hawk at the arriving runners. A volunteer could easily miss a Fast Passing Runner, especially in the dark.

Van 2 brought us the baton about 2 minutes behind schedule.

Leg 13. 8.47 miles. 3.2% net drop. 712 feet of gain, and 2128 feet of drop. First mile uphill, the rest steep rolling down. Jeff McClellan against Kyle Perry. Jeff's splits speak for themselves - 6:35, 4:54, 4:53, 5:06, 5:22, 5:05, 4:50, 4:53, and 4:50 pace for the rest of the leg. 44:05, 5:12 average. Sasha Science projected 44:59, the original projection was 45:20. Kyle Perry (BYU) ran 43:33. Sweet for Jeff, only 32 seconds behind the BYU super-runner. We were 16:54 behind after leg 13.

Leg 14. 3.00 miles. 85 feet of drop, 145 feet of gain. Hayden Hawks against Nate Ogden. Hayden ran 16:22, 5:27 pace, was projected to run 16:34 by Sasha Science, 17:40 originally. Hayden's form reminds me of Ryan Hall. Who knows, he might run 2:06 marathon when he grows up, I would not be surprised. Jared Kelly ran this leg in 16:00. No data on BYU times from this point.

Leg 15. 4.95 miles officially, measured 5.05 on the GPS. 208 feet of drop, 265 feet of gain. 0.2% climb. Tyler ran through a side-ache in 29:02. Sasha Science projected him at 28:45, original projection was 28:32. Average Garmin pace 5:45, if the leg was right, then 5:51.

Leg 16. Officially 3.05, measured 2.93 on Walter's Garmin. 31 feet of drop, 74 feet of gain, 0.3% grade. He ran it in 17:02, 5:48 pace. Sasha Science projection was 17:31 (5:44 pace), the original projection was 17:46 (5:49 pace). The projections assumed 3.05 miles. Splits: 5:40, 5:57, 5:48 pace for 0.93.

Leg 17. Officially 5.87, measured 6.03 on my Garmin. 103 feet of drop, 339 feet of climb. 0.8 % grade. Started at 12:33 AM. Felt sleepy and weak on this leg. Ran 36:43, 6:06 average pace. Was projected to run by Sasha Science in 34:18, 5:51 pace. The original projection said 34:23, 5:52 pace. Splits: 5:46, 6:06, 6:08, 5:56, 6:07, 6:31, and 5:55 pace to the finish. It is interesting to compare my splits with Chad's who ran the same leg: 6:09, 6:05, 6:03, 6:00, 6:07, 6:23. So in other words, in the first mile I was myself, from 2 to 5 I became Chad (in his current shape), and on the last mile I was transformed into a runner that is 8 seconds a mile slower than Chad. This was a clear case of neural fatigue. Next year we'll try Operation Huntsville Nap and see if that makes a difference (assuming I am in Van 1 again, which I should be because it would be a disaster to put me in Van 2). I was rather surprised that I was passing mostly fit looking young men running around 7:00-7:30 rather than mostly women running 10:00 pace as I was expecting. Every time I'd come up on one due to my past race experience (you never start behind somebody except a race like this) I would think, well as weak as I am feeling, he's going to try to hang with me. Maybe I'll draft a bit before passing him. But he never did try. Of course, he could not. If you did not even see him a mile earlier, there is no chance he'd be able to go with you. It is like passing somebody who's hit the wall in a marathon. He is a helpless lamb, there is nothing he can do. My mind was playing tricks on me in the middle of the night.

Leg 18. Officially 5.23 miles, measured 5.11 on Jeff's GPS. 201 feet of drop, 695 feet of climb. 1.8% grade climb. Jeff Shadley with his quads already trashed ran 34:40 averaging 6:47. His Sasha Science projection was 33:48 (for 5.23), 6:28 average. Original projection was 32:48, 6:16 average.

We messed up the exchange. It took about 30 seconds for Taylor to find Jeff. Again, a note for the future. We need military discipline in the vans, especially at night. Know the current time, know the earliest your hand off can arrive, and from that time on watch like a hawk without losing vigilance. The runner ideally should never be left alone at the exchange. 5 minutes from the earliest possible arrival the companion should come out and be there to remind the runner to stay vigilant.

Immediately after picking up Jeff we headed over to the North Summit High School in Coalville. Set a PR for the sleep. 70 minutes! This later proved very helpful on the third leg. Being humbled by the hand-off fiasco we were more disciplined. However, we did waste about 5 minutes on a small detail. I forgot the exact location where Tyler and Walter were sleeping, and it was impossible to tell among about 50 sleeping bodies in the dark who was who. So we did a man to man check waking up a few unhappy runners. Some volunteered that they were not either Walter or Tyler before we had a chance to kick them. Note for the future - make sure you know EXACTLY where everyone is sleeping and can find that place in the dark. For the team members - do not go away from the van without telling the van captain (and have an official van captain to begin with) where you are with enough detail that he could find you in less than 60 seconds in case of emergency.

Drove over to the Rockport Lake for Jeff to start his leg. There was a huge jam. We let Jeff out with about a mile to go so he could do his warm up.

Leg 25. 5.60 miles. 385 feet of gain, 155 feet of loss. 1.3% grade. Nasty leg. I ran it last year. Slower than it looks from the elevation profile. Jeff McClellan started his leg at 5:01 AM, about 3 minutes behind Carson Campbell from the Peak Endurance team that started at 4:00 PM, an hour before us. Too much gap for Jeff to make a road kill, but enough to set Hayden up for it. Jeff's splits - 5:34, 5:50, 6:01, 6:30, 6:29, next 0.5 in 2:47, last 509 feet at 5:18 pace. Total time 33:42. Average pace 6:01. The original projection was 33:51, Sasha Science projection was 33:49. Kyle Perry reported that he ran that leg at 5:56-5:57 average. So that puts Jeff at most only a little over 30 seconds behind. Jeff finished about a minute behind Carson. We again lost about 3 seconds on the exchange. This time we did it right for the most part - I was out there with Hayden and kept him alert. But then we both spaced out spaced out, Jeff apparently went by the radio announcer so fast he could not see his number, either that or Hayden and I both spaced out, the volunteers kept us out of the exchange area until the number had been announced, and by the time Jeff got in Hayden was still on the sidewalk. Again shows the importance of being vigilant.

Leg 26. 163 feet of gain, 127 feet of loss. 0.1% grade climb.

Leg 29. I started at 7:05 AM. Splits. 4:52, 4:36, 4:56, 5:30, last 379 feet at 5:40 pace. Average pace 4:59.

T4 Racer - 205.14 miles

P.M. Home to Costco relay with the kids. 1.06 with Julia in 10:48, 1.56 with Jenny in 13:51, and 2.75 with Benjamin in 22:55.

Five Fingers - 452.76 miles

Night Sleep Time: 1.17Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 3.17
Comments
From seth on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 13:13:41

Sasha,

Did you see that Brian Lindsey in on the blog now? byumiler.

From bryan on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 15:32:52

I'm living outside of Seattle. My injury is a recurring stress reaction in my femur that also has brought along some chronic groin and lower back injuries. Most people I talk to who have had similar problems have had to have surgery, but it's super expensive. I'm trying to find another way now. I cross train a lot. I ran a 15:44 5k in March off of 25 mpw, but I can't seem to even get that high lately. I'm closer to about 10 mpw at the moment. I hope your running is going well and that you have some good races lined up.

Cool website!

Bryan

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 17:02:56

Bryan:

I just wrote down my injury prevention/recovery philosophy on the forum:

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,465.msg4323.html

Hope you find it helpful.

From Jon on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 18:54:56

Sasha- with your logistical mistake, I think your best bet would be to find someone where you could all shower. As for sleep, I don't think it is likely- it is too early in the evening, too close behind a hard run, and too short of a time period to make it worth trying to sleep for long. But a shower and good meal would be perfect.

From Hayden on Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 19:51:00

Good job on the Relay. Thanks for helping me out with everything. It was fun and i am glad i did it.

From cgbooth23 on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 00:32:11

any thoughts on why in this race so many people suffer from stomach issues? I don't get this any other races, but man my stomach was doing a number on me again this year!

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 13:35:23

People think they have to eat normal meals, and they mean American normal meals too. You are guaranteed stomach problems in a race like this if you think you are going to a party rather than a death march.

The death march aspect comes in two ways - primarily sleep deprivation. Choose sleep over a meal. You can rock in a 10 K hungry, but not neurally fatigued.

Secondarily, you have to learn to live for 18-24 hours with a relatively empty stomach. Starving people in Africa do it for much longer than that, so really the big deal about this paradigm is breaking the mentality "I have to have three big meals a day every day".

To avoid stomach problems you need to buckle down and eat/drink very minimally. You are only running 13-18 miles total, it is much less than a marathon. Unless you are really out of shape, you will not have fuel issues even if you do not eat at all. During the entire relay I only ate a couple of bananas and drank Powerade to thirst. No stomach issues.

From cgbooth23 on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 13:51:45

I think my issue was more not eating enough I had a small sandwich Friday, and other than that ate an apple, half a banana, 2-3 gu's, a recovery drink (Endurox), and alot to drink (water and gatorade), I also did the Ultra so I ran a total of 28 miles, but last year I did the regular and still had stomach issues! Thanks for the reply, I always appreciate it!

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 14:06:52

Probably too much to drink. Clyde and Logan learned that in Del Sol.

From Superfly on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 14:37:01

Actually we both got sick from eating too much Subway sandwich too close to running.

From cgbooth23 on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 15:28:00

Thats what I can't figure out, I didn't eat much and still had stomach issues especially Saturday morning early about 3 hrs after my 10.9 mile run from E. canyon down to Henefer... I never have these issues on other runs, I also talked to many others who dealt with similar issues... in fact our first runner almost couldn't go for his 2nd run due to stomach issues!

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 15:39:49

Not sleeping and running hard puts additional stress on the stomach. So you have to go real easy on it. It could very well be something you ate the day before.

From Jon on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 16:01:25

It isn't often that you stay up for 24 hours, trying to get your body to perform well in 3 races with minimal relaxation time. Stress can often show itself in the digestive system. I'm not sure there is any way around having at least some problems on a relay like this.

From cgbooth23 on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 16:06:39

Jon,

yea thats what I am kinda figuring, based off 2 years in a row... and also pacing a friend in the Wasatch 100 and seeing him deal with it alot! It's a hard one to figure out!

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 16:26:46

Here is what has worked for me - eat well the week before. From 8 hours before the race until your last leg eat a banana when hungry, drink Powerade when thirsty until you don't, otherwise do not eat or drink.

From Jon on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 16:29:57

On the Powerade note, I have found that I have less problems (i.e. the runs) when I drink the stuff with no food coloring- arctic blast, or something like that (white). Not sure if it is in my head, but drinking lots of sports drinks with food coloring seems to mess me up versus no food coloring.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 17:04:05

For the record - the one I drank was white.

From Lybi on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 17:27:03

Great job on this leg, Sasha! Man, you really are the King of the Downhill.

I hope Subway doesn't sue us or anything, but I've heard SO many reports of people having stomach issues after eating there. I think it is thought of as a healthier place to eat, but it just doesn't seem to make the cut for race food, from my observations.

Sasha when you came to my house for the first time for the Del Sol relay I felt SOOOO sorry for you that you ended up eating bananas, raw oatmeal, raw peanuts , dates and honey all mixed together with a little soy milk. I felt like such a poor hostess that I couldn't even provide you with normallish healthy food to eat! But now I look back and laugh because that's just how you dig in! It's illuminating to see your perspective--coming from a foreign country for one, and being ultra-dedicated to good fueling. It is helpful... I don't feel as sorry for myself when I eat a pineapple for a treat instead of a cookie.

From superfly on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 17:49:41

cgbooth23- Did you eat any of the Fizzolies spaghetti at that major exchange? I did and almost right after I ate it I started having stomach issues. I was doing fine until then and that's where things went south if you know what I mean.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 18:30:35

Lybi - that leg was Jeff's. I got his splits off my Garmin which he wore. I have not yet written about my other two legs, but my downhill leg went all right as well.

From cgbooth23 on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 19:57:01

superfly,

No I think they were doing that at the top of E. Cyn. and thats where my 2nd leg started... I would have really been hurtin had I ate before that downhill section... and actually my stomach felt fine then it was after that leg when it started acting up!

I think it is due to stress on the body and lack of sleep, i really pushed my first leg (6:59/mile for me fast over 7 miles) to stay in front of this other ultra team that was pushing us and then I really went hard on the downhill going into henefer.

From wheakory on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 23:58:35

I think Sasha is right. Eating too much and not getting sleep will whack out your digestive and nervous system. I think the best approach is eating like a granola bar, or banana, or trail mix, or even a bagel with just water. I did this and I had no stomach issues whatsoever.

Jon's right about eating a lot of food while downing powerade. Not a good combination in the middle of the night.

From sarah on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:44:44

I have two bits to add about the stomach thing. When you body is under stress it sometimes shuts down certain "non-essential" systems for awhile....like digestion..you can live for a time without digesting properly and may need all resources to go to essential functions like breathing and heart beating. I am speaking from experience of being pregnant six times and enduring weeks of my digestive system going haywire while my body learns to take care of the essential things....maybe there is some kind of connection when you are doing "a death march" as Sasha calls it.

From cgbooth23 on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:57:33

thats interesting and makes sense Sarah, I tell you what if you could figure out how to fix it you'd make alot of crazy people who do this kind of thing for fun happy! especially the guys doing 50-100 mile races, it is a very common issue there!

From wheakory on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:09:56

Sarah you make perfect sense. When your running at hours that you normally don't run that's going to cause fatigue and stress on the body.

I do agree with Sasha that you really don't need to eat all that much. I think staying hydrated is more important. Eating a banana or two is probably all you need. I really didn't eat too much at the WBR event, except I didn't pass up on the Pancakes and Eggs at the School. I had the pancakes regardless if I needed them or not because I love them :-)

I'm glad they did bother me going up the "You Got To Be Kidding Me Leg" or that would have been an ugly site.

From sarah on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:24:18

Well...if it is a digestive problem then there are many natural ways of helping the digestive system. One of course would be to reduce stress...maybe before the relay really focus on cutting down on stress and taking it easy. May sound impossible but as a mom of several small children I KNOW that it is possible to cut things out if you really have a good goal.

Then there are herbs that help the digestive system and other supplements....red raspberry, peppermint and charcoal are my favorite but you can research for others and find out which one works best for you..every body is different and so different supplements, herbs, etc work better for other people. I think the low stress before the race will help a ton though for all you crazies out there.

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:38:51

Peppermint sounds good. Charcoal? As in eat it?

From Tom on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:47:04

I believe Sarah is talking about eating the charcoal.

I remember when I was in the MTC my companion was challenged to eat a goldfish we had in our room that had been dead for a day or so. After he ate it he got worried cause it had been dead for a while so he got the dorm medic to give him some stuff to make him throw up. Well he started throwing up and couldn't stop so the medic then gave him ground up charcoal to eat so he would stop throwing up. I think maybe he drank the ground up charcoal in water. It seemed to work quite quickly and effectively. Oh the things slightly homesick 19 year old missionaries in training will do for fun.

From sarah on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 22:11:44

Yes...I am talking about charcoal...the black stuff you start a fire with...Although the version we take is in capsules from Good Earth. Just swallow and enjoy the benefits.

From cgbooth23 on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 01:19:45

Sasha,

remind me next year you and your crew can crash at my place I live on the WBR route in Eden if that is convenient. Logan knows where its at. cheers!

From sarah on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:09:22

Burnt toast can mimic the benefits of charcoal for stomach upsets....:)

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 23:41:36

Chad - thanks for the offer. We really appreciate it, it is going to help us a lot. We'll get in touch with you prior to the race next year. There is a saying in Russian that it is better to have 100 friends than 100 roubles, and it dates back to the time when 100 roubles was worth quite a bit more than what it is now ($5).

From Tracy1 on Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 23:14:18

This year was the first year I didn't eat at Subway! No stomach problems either! In fact, I didn't eat any solid food at all. Diet consisted of about 10 oz. of CTR Brew immediately after the leg (Crucial to Recovery) with maltodextrin, milk, chocolate/cocoa, sweetner, lecithin, creatine monohydate. Then potatoe chips and a little Coke. I did eat a small plain bagel and plenty of pretzels, but thats pretty much it.

From Lindsey on Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 00:11:24

Could your stomach upset have been caused partly by motion sickness? That could be the difference between this and other races. Being stuck in the back of a van for many hours like that. It seemed like the only time I wasn't sick during the race was when I was running(Because I was out of the car).

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Fourth leg of the Wasatch Back this morning in the form of a 7:00 AM Stake Semi-Annual Priesthood meeting.  They always have those at 7:00 AM in our stake. I forgot about the last two and missed them, so this time I was determined not to forget. The Lord blessed me - in spite of missing the sleep in the WBR I felt very energized. I even felt energized afterwards in the three hour block. Once I got home I got a good nap, though.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.751.501.000.0020.25

A.M. I got my check from Ogden. $550. And along with that I found on my doorstep "a ball of curious workmanship" from Ogden as well. This is what I like to say when I find a gadget on my doorstep. Just like Lehi found Liahona near his tent one day. Except this one does not work according to your faith. It was Suunto t4 foot pod/HRM toy.

I ran 3 miles with Tyler, and then spent the rest of the run playing with the new toy. Good - HRM works well. The adjustable strap might even make it fit on Benjamin, Jenny, and even Julia. Bad - time display is tiny, hard to see. No display of stride frequency, only an estimate of the running speed. It always irks me when a gadget displays what it does not really know (distance) while fails to display what it does know (stride rate, ground contact time, foot acceleration vector). I knew that display of the ground contact time would be unrealistic to expect, much less the foot acceleration vector in any form, but I did hope that I could at least get the stride frequency. Without it, the foot pod is annoyingly useless even when calibrated. In hopes that it would be somewhat reliable, I went through the trouble of attaching it to my shoe (now I am having a hard time taking it off, too). Before calibration, it was showing a pace 30 seconds per mile slower that actual at around 8:00 pace. After calibration at 8:00 pace it got better at paces slower than 7:00 mile, almost satisfactory. However, at sub-6:00 pace it was showing a faster pace by about 5 seconds a mile.

I could put up with that if it was not for this quirk. I accelerated quickly in one stride, and then eased off in the next in the middle of jogging at 7:50-8:00 pace. It showed 5:05 for the accelerating stride, and 12:30 on the ease-off stride. I can guarantee you I did not go from 7:50 to 5:05 in one stride, or from 5:05 to 12:30 in the next. The manual did warm about it, though. But I do this all the time when I run.

Ran a mile in 5:25, got HR up to 164. Total of 15.1 for the run.

P.M. 1.33 with the Benjamin, Jenny, and Julia to the library in 13:03, back with Benjamin and Jenny, this gave us 25:37 for 2.65. Then another 2.5 in 18:46. Ran into Jacob Howell, and then shortly after a BYU runner Rich Nelson who ran leg 10. Found out from him the composition of their Van 2: Jason Dorais, Warren Davis, Chad Durham, Rich Nelson, Ryan Merriman, and Derek Taylor. According to him they had no pace projections like us, just ran.

Five Fingers - 465.45 miles.

T4 Racer - 212.69 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.974.000.000.0019.97

A.M. Michelle came for a speed workout. We did 4x1 mile on the trail. Original plan was 5:45 each with 200 meter recovery. Michelle rebelled. I suggested we extend the recovery to 400 first time she is slower than 5:45. She did 5:40.1, 200 recovery, Matt joined us for the remainder of the workout. 5:46.5, 400 recovery, 5:45.1, 400 recovery, 5:45.7. Matt pulled away on the last one, was probably around 5:42-5:43. HR peaked at 157 a couple of times, once when we hit two 85 quarters back to back on the third one, and the other time when Michelle kicked with a 39 200 on the last one. Otherwise it stayed under 153. When Michelle struggled (88-89 quarters), it was 148, what a cold insensitive heart! However, when I yelled at her to give me five, it would go up to 152. Next time we should give the watch to Michelle so she could see my HR and play the "make Sasha work" game. If anybody wants to play it, feel free to come. Also, towing subjects wanted for power training. I have a harness I want to use to do some power training without hills (more specific to flat running), but nobody to tow this week. Ideally I want somebody slower so there is no way we can run a certain pace when the partner is being towed by having him just run that pace. This is also good for the slower runner - overspeed training.

After we finished the cool down, ran around the block 16 times.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:03, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:08, another 0.5 with Benjamin in  3:51, then 2 alone in 14:40.

Five Fingers - 485.42 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.25
Comments
From josse on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 17:25:25

Sorry I missed out to be intow, sore leg and did not want to chance an unjury. Leg is feeling much better.

From MichelleL on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 21:01:24

Thanks so much for the workout help. Not a bad kick I had on the last one, eh? 5:46.5, more than one way to win an argument :) No, seriously, though I think that was the fastest I could go with less than a 2 minute recovery between.

From sarah on Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 23:27:57

And thank you for running around the block :)

From Steve on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:29:19

What's the run for Saturday? Long run I think you mentioned?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.070.000.000.0020.07

A.M. Ran alone. 15.07 in 1:52:20. This run took my Five Fingers over the 500 mile boundary. I think Steve Hooper will have to tell his sales rep that Five Fingers can go quite a bit over 500 miles.

Did some experiments trying different form alterations and observing their impact on HR at the same pace, or the pace at the same HR. Discovered one thing - we are took quick to conclude that changing the form has given us a performance boost. I would do something different, it would make me run faster, but HR would go up as well. So in other words, I wanted it to work bad enough that I subconsciously sped up and ignored the increased effort, which was easy to do when the pace is in the 7:00 - 7:30 range.

However, I did find something that appeared to be effective. No dramatic effect, but at least something. If I focused on a quick push and then a quick transition to relaxation as soon as the leg was off the ground, I was able to bring my HR down from 125 to 123 at the same pace (7:25 per mile). This was difficult to do properly, though. Not surprising, if it was easy I would have figured it out already. I kept doing one of the two - either relax too much and forget to power, in which case the HR stayed at 123 but the pace dropped to 7:35-7:40, or I would get excited, power hard, but then forget to relax. This would bring the pace up to under 7:10, but HR went up to 126-127.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:56, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:07, 0.5 with Benjamin in 3:56, and 2.5 alone in 14:58. Managed to fit the HRM on Benjamin. His HR was around 160 at 9:00 pace, around 174 at  8:00 pace, and after about 0.1 of sub-8:00 pace followed by 100 meters in 23 (6:08 pace) it got up to 186. First time I've been able to observe his HR at different speeds. 

Five Fingers - 505.49 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From wheakory on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 14:48:12

Nice work on the Five Fingers. I really need to get a pair to test them out and strengthen the muscles.

When are you going to finish your WBR race report?

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 14:56:02

What up with Jeff, is he gone?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 15:11:27

Jeff is in Park City at the family reunion. Kory - WBR is still work in progress. I have updated it, but it is not done. I want to get all the details right to help us plan better next year. In my opinion, we were about 15-20 minutes slower than we could have been with ideal planning with the same pool of people. Still slower than BYU, but next year hopefully we will have stronger runners, so 15-20 minutes from stronger runners, 15-20 minutes from better planning, and we become competitive.

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 15:24:06

I think we should try to put together a 3rd team but have it mixed. Then we could have 3 teams in the top.

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 15:34:45

Personally, I would avoid multiple teams. At least from what I saw, it was very difficult to organize and keep people happy. Or if you do multiple teams, keep them seperate (i.e. don't move people from one team to the other). But I think a coed team would be awesome, especially given how fast some of our women are.

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 15:39:05

I agree with the keeping them separate. We would need to appoint a team captian for each team and not mix and match. Put the teams together based on speed and leave it at that. An extra bonus for being on my team is massage at hand;)

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 15:58:27

That's it, I'm joining your team, Josse. You sold me.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 16:40:41

Happiness is subjective. If we want to beat BYU next year, people need to learn to be happy to run on whatever team, whichever van, and whichever legs they are assigned. And if their fitness changes right before the race, and the rules permit us to move them to another team, then they need to be ready to move, up or down without any grumbling. If everyone goes after his own happiness, we are 15-20 minutes slower, and that could cost us the win. This year it would not have made a difference, but next year it likely will.

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:08:18

I'm going for the happiness of unlimited free massages! Plus, happier runners run faster!

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:12:20

Sasha, I think your assumption is what drives the result. For example, you are assuming everyone's goal is the beat BYU. Some people may prefer to be on a certain team (or be on a team with their friends, or run a certain leg, etc), even if it means not beating BYU. I'm all for beating BYU, but you have to make sure everyone is working under the same assumptions as you are for the results to work. I'm not saying I'm not in your boat, but you may need to remember that some people have different goals.

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:23:37

I think most in general are ok with what Sasha is saying. Of coarse my goal is not to beat BYU and I know I would not be put on that team. My goal is to beat the other coed teams. But I am also in for a good time and to be with friends.

So you put together an "A" team with the fastest of the fast that all want to compete to win. Then the "B" team of the rejects oh I mean the next fastest that can place in the top 3 and a "C" team which stand for coed and want to be a competative coed team. I do agree you have to make the judgement right before based on recent preformaces and how that person is running. So to avoid hard feelings just don't put the teams together until right before. But Jon you are welcome to run on my team, I just don't know if Sasha will let you;)

From wheakory on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:44:07

I didn't notice that there was a lot of grumbling and complaining about legs. I know our team didn't complain about what legs they were assigned. The blue team gave what they had in the relay and really didn't need to be serious doing that. Jon's right about, "happier runners run faster".

What I think he means for part of this is you can have fun in a relay and still run your best and don't have to be so serious. If you get a leg that you didn't really want your still going to run good. Sometimes being so technical can cause problems or added pressure.

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 17:51:56

"Sometimes being so technical can cause problems or added pressure." I completly agree, I have to enjoy what I am doing other wise I wouldn't do it. BTW-I enjoy pain and running fast, but I run the best when I am having fun and there is not alot of pressure. And I don't want someone who is having an off day to feel bad for not running their best.

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:43:59

Hey, Josse said I was on the reject team! I'm not sure if that is better or worse than my first year, when my team was named "Team Misfits" cause we were the team no one wanted.

Only one problem, Josse- you have to assign runners to WBR teams about 2 months before the race. Lots of things can happen (and happened this year) in those 2 months- injuries, drop outs, changes in fitness, etc. Plus, when you have 10 runners who are essentially the same speed, who do you choose?

Kory- ask Cody, James, Paul, and Sasha about how much work went into getting the teams together. There was a ton of time spent that you guys (thankfully) were not aware of.

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:52:16

No Jon you are just the next fastest. I would think you would be able to move things around (of cousre I don't now the rules) they have to understand people get injured and stuff happens. Right?

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 18:54:22

"Then the "B" team of the rejects oh I mean the next fastest that can place in the top 3"

See, the rejects! Cool! I was on the reject team!

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 19:57:57

Question-I noticed that the WBR is already registering for next year. I now you got comps for the two teams, do you think we can get one for the coed team or should I pay the registration?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 20:20:41

Jon:

If you are on the racing team and you are get a comp into any race that is provided by the blog, the assumption is you are there to race, which is defined as doing everything within your ability to run the fastest possible time.

Josse:

We are not 100% decided at this point, but I would not pay that entry fee in a hurry. If we end up not putting together a mixed team, there will be plenty of teams anxious to gobble you up in the last two weeks prior to the race.

From josse on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 20:54:28

Ya I don't want to fork out the 1000 buck for the entery fee!

From Jon on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 21:18:53

Sasha- I realize that if you are on the team and get a comp from the blog, then you should do your best to help the team. That is a given.

From MichelleL on Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 21:21:38

I have no intention of being gobbled.

From Steve on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:10:35

THere are too many turkeys around here.

From Paul Petersen on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:26:00

Josse - Yeah, you can always jump on a team a couple weeks before the event. Some of them are desperate enough to pay your way at that point too!

From josse on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:13:46

I don't just want to be on any team I would like to put a competitive FRB coed team together. Besides that is the only way Michelle will do it.

From josse on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:19:53

Goble, goble I like turkies....you are probably taking about me:)

From Steve on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:25:15

I'm up for a coed team. My wife would run on the coed team as well.

Of course, I don't want to do all the leg work in setting it up. I don't envy the people who do that.

I like turkeys, especially on Turkey Day!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.500.252.250.1020.10

A.M. Ran with Adam the first 5 miles. First we ran 0.5 to verify that he still had the same problem last time we checked. He did. We went through the first quarter in 1:28, and after that he was unable to hold 6:00, and ended up with 3:01.7. He was not breathing very hard at all, but could not go any faster. Bad nervous system problem. Whatever I've got, he has 10 times worse. Helps me put things into perspective. Then I did a little bit of experimental power training dragging him with a harness 3 times, each time for 10 seconds. After that he was concerned he might aggravate an old injury, so we stopped.

Dropped him off, ran around the block. Then ran with the kids. 1.05 with Julia in 10:24, 1.5 in 13:26 with Benjamin and Jenny, 0.5 with Benjamin in 4:22. Then a dog came. Benjamin identified it as a dalmatian. Wikipedia says that dalmatians have excellent endurance and are very energetic and playful. This one was so energetic and playful that after about a quarter of running (1:37) I did not have a choice except put its endurance to a test. At 5:40 pace its playfulness decreased enough to where it was trailing behind and was not trying to hit my legs with its nose. I was encouraged and picked up the pace even more. Unfortunately we were now on the trail next to the river, which provided a nice shade and cooler temperatures thus favoring the dog. I kept up the pressure and on the last mile the dog started to falter. I was encouraged again because I knew once we got away from the river it would be warmer and I would be able to drop it. My expectations were correct. I put about a 10 second gap on the dog in the last 0.4. It came in huffing and puffing after I finished. I was delighted over my success in asserting human dominion over a small part of the animal kingdom in the area of endurance. Total time for the last 2.5 was 14:10 including the first non-tempo quarter in 1:37. Last mile was 5:31. Average pace over the last 2.25 of my unplanned dog tempo run was 5:34.

Total of 15.1 for the run.

P.M. Ran 5 miles in 39:01 in the evening. HR readings were very low in spite of the 80-90 degree heat. In fact, the were even lower than what I would have expected them in cool weather. About 118 at 7:30 pace on average. Started out very slow, felt exceptionally sluggish in the heat, and HR for a while completely refused to go above 105, while the pace refused to go faster than 8:00. Felt more energetic after 2 miles. I think I am starting to understand why they say "oppressive heat". Looks like the brain starts employing defense mechanisms directly in response to the heat vs in response to reduced blood volume from sweating.

Also did a stair test with myself, Sarah, Benjamin, and Jenny.  The test consists of running up a stairway of 11 stairs as fast as you can landing on every stair. Results - Benjamin - 2.8, Jenny - 2.9, me -3.3 (self-timed), 3.6 (Benjamin-timed), Sarah - 3.8. I timed everybody when I was not running. The test is supposed to measure your ability to quickly contract and relax a muscle, which I believe is an important component in the Quality X. I wondered if the fact that Benjamin was closer to his natural stride length for the stair climb allowed him to contract/relax more efficiently. So we did a test skipping every other stair. The times were 2.3 for him and 3.1 for me, so no, I am just bad it at. The fact that I was not that much better in this ability than pregnant woman 25 weeks along gives some food for thought.

Five Fingers - 525.59 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Scott Zincone on Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 22:45:05

A man in our town rescued two greyhounds. I pass him regularly when he is walking them. He always jokes they should run with me.

I know they have the speed, but I wonder about their endurance. Maybe one day I should take him up on his offer.

From wheakory on Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 15:10:55

Greyhounds have horrible endurance. In fact their rather lazy. They only have the quick sprinter speed than it's gone in probably less than a minute.

From adamr on Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 19:02:20

Sasha, have you every done blood glucose testing? It might be interesting to get one of the little test kits to bring with you during a run to see if there are changes in that according to particular efforts/length of run.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.070.000.000.0020.07

A.M. Total of 15.07 including 1.05 with Julia in 10:07, and 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:22.

P.M. 5 alone in 35:50.

Five Fingers - 545.36 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From Walter on Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 21:13:54

Hey, I think I ended up with your black watch you were using. Ive been using it in hopes that it will rub good luck my way. I havnt noticed a big differance in my running but I have a good feeling about this watch! I can get it back to you just let me know.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 21:44:07

I have mine. It must be Jeff McClellan's.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.7015.000.000.0022.70

A.M. Did the Provo Riverwoods 10 miler twice. First up, the immediate 180 and dash back down. Brisk warm up for the first 5 miles, then tempo the rest of the way. A fairly miserable workout as you climb 800 feet in the first half, but great preparation for Deseret News.

I had two goals - beat Josse's race time from two weeks ago (1:07:02) on the way up, then James Barnes' winning time (56:42) on the way back. After a bit of jogging at 7:30 pace I realized that if I had any chances of beating Josse I needed to get down to business. So I started going around 6:40-7:00 pace up the Provo Canyon. Occasional gusts of wind did not help, but I was able to keep respectable pace through them. HR quickly got up to 130-135 range and stayed there. Got through the first 5 miles, and shifted into the tempo gear. To my surprise I had a hard time getting HR above 145 no matter how hard I tried to push it. The pace was around 6:10-6:20 range until I went into the South Fork.

Did the 3.23 stretch up South Fork in 21:26, 6:38 average. Passed Michelle and Josse doing their pre-tempo warm-up. 1:07:40 at the turnaround. Chicked by 38 seconds, bummer!

On the way back tried to crank it up, but had a hard time kicking into gear. HR absolutely refused to go above 145. 3.23 in 17:56, 5:33 average. Not that great of this kind of drop (400 feet in a bit over 3 miles). Better watch out, or I might not only miss James, but get chicked by Michelle on the descent. Her split at that point was only 33 second slower.

Focused on running not slower than 5:40 figuring that if I can do that on flatter portions and James's average was 5:40 I should be OK. With only one caveat. The course is actually about 0.07 longer than 10 miles. Back when Curt certified it it went straight near Bridal Veil Falls. But since then he added a detour on the little bridge to avoid crossing the old highway.

Finally kicked into gear and started seeing 1:23 quarters. HR climbed to 149 but rebelled against the 150 range. Towards the end as it got warmed it got up to 152. Picked it up to 5:20 pace on the last quarter, HR finally progressed to 155 during that. Finished the second half in 56:20, 22 seconds ahead of James's time. Total time 2:04:00.

P.M. Benjamin ran in the state meet. I jogged a bit with him during his warm-up. He won Bantams 1500 in 6:04.20 beating his only competitor by 18 seconds. The effort earned him $4. I set up a bonus structure for him - $1 for every lap 1:35 or faster, $4 for breaking 6:00, $2 for breaking 6:10, $1 for breaking 6:18 which was what he ran last time. Time bonuses non-cumulative. His splits were 1:35, 1:39, 1:39, and 1:11 for the last 300. His last lap was 1:34. So $2 in lap bonuses, and $2 time bonus. Decent effort for 85 degree heat.

Afterwards we went on an adventure drive on the Squaw Peak road from Provo Canyon to Hobble Creek Canyon. Ran with the girls in the middle. Julia ran 1 mile downhill in 8:47. Jenny ran 1.5 in 13:23, first mile was downhill, last 0.5 uphill. That was quite an adventure drive, I think that is my PR for off-road driving both in terms of distance, the closeness to the edge of a cliff, and the bumpiness of the road. Prior PR was Avon pass which pales in comparison.

T4 Racer - 232.69 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From josse on Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 22:32:13

Wow great job on the run! to bad you didn't get me;) Maybe next time. Tough workout!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Caught up on sleep. Went to church. Took a nap. In the evening we went to the patriotic fireside at the Marriott Center. When we got there, there were no seats for all of us except at the very top. This actually made things nice for keeping the kids from getting too wild as there was a platform they could stretch themselves on.

As I sat there and looked at a row of American flags at the bottom a thought came to me. It has been a recurring thought in the last 15 years. It comes to me when I look above my day to day labor and am able to see a bigger perspective. America has been blessed in many ways more than any other nations. The reason God allows us to live in America is that he wants us to serve. The scriptures not only confirm it but also add a stern warning:

For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

Ether 2:10 in the Book of Mormon. 

It is dangerous to lose the mindset of service anywhere, but it appears from the scriptures, and I feel it in my heart, that the dangers of doing so in America are much greater than anywhere else. Our country will be strong as long as we reach out to others and are not fazed by the sacrifices it may require.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.381.000.001.0020.38

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Daniel. Jeff was a lab rat today. He is such a nice rat, always agrees to participate in experiments and measurements. I put my HRM on him and watched his HR at different speeds. It was a lot of fun. At 8:00 pace he was roughly around 130. He wanted to see what happens when he held his breath. His HR did not go up at all, but he just could not keep running while holding his breath. Then I suggested that he should sing. With the Independence Day approaching he sang the first verse of the Star Spangled Banner at 8:00 pace. His HR maxed out at 144. Then he remembered that in his PE class he could get his HR from standing (around 75-80) to 160 in 50 meters of sprinting. I wondered if he really could. So at first he sprinted from 8:00 pace, but the problem was that he went so fast I could not keep up and he moved out of the HRM reception range. Noting that mistake I gave him the watch, and next time we tried from a resting start. We tried to wait for his HR to drop to 85, but there were too many mosquitoes. Daniel and I jogged around, while Jeff stood and sacrificed in the name of science. However, the mosquitoes kept him agitated enough that his HR would not drop below 100. So we decided that was as good as it was going to get and he busted out sprinting. After 15 seconds he was able to get his HR to 159.

Then we decided to measure his HR at 7:00 pace. It was around 150. Afterwards we tried at 5:50 pace. It got up to 172. We dropped Daniel off, and decided to try at 5:20 pace. Well, Jeff was too feisty to run 5:20 and started out at 5:00 pace. So we ran a mile in 4:58. Jeff's HR got up to 187. This was the fastest mile I've ever run wearing Five Fingers. I liked that mile a lot better than the one we did a couple of weeks ago in 4:55 because it did not have a 70 second quarter in the middle. The pacing was perfectly even. We estimate that Jeff's max HR is around 190-192.

Dropped Jeff off after 13 and ran 2 more. Total of 15 miles in 1:54:56.

P.M. Home to Costco relay. 1.06 with Julia in 11:13, 1.55 with Jenny in 13:43, and 2.77 with Benjamin in 22:04.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.000.000.000.0020.00

A.M. Ran with Jeff. The run at first was uneventful. Then we stopped for a VPB and got eaten by mosquitoes. Then we ran into Luz and she joined us. I noticed she was going about 8:05 pace while chatting, but I did not say anything at first waiting for a strategic location. Then about 300 meters away from the mile mark from where I started timing her I told her the pace and challenged her to break 8:00 for the mile. She easily met the challenge finishing the last 200 in 51 up a slight grade (6:48 pace) and hitting a 7:50 split for the mile. Afterwards she chose 8:40 pace and maintained it conversationally all the way to our house. She and Sarah continued on from there, while Jeff and I ran around the block. Jeff stopped at 13.25, I woke up Julia, then did two more laps, and then ran with her for the last 1.05 in 10:38. Total time for 15 miles was 2:01:10.

P.M. 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:57, then 0.5 more with Benjamin in 3:33. After the first easy 0.5 we played the leapfrog game. Ran 3 more with Jacob and Joseph in the stroller in 21:54, total time for 5 miles was 38:24.

Five Fingers - 585.74 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.67Total Sleep Time: 7.92
Comments
From JamesL on Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 21:14:43

Hey I fixed this last month but everything before June has dissapeared

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.100.000.000.0020.10

A.M. Jeff had to work late last night so only Josse showed up this morning. Ran 10.1 uneventfully in 1:25:13.

P.M. 7 in hot conditions in 55:39, 3 of it with Adam. Then 1 with Julia in 11:15, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:16, and another 0.5 with Benjamin in 3:45, 17:01 for 2 miles.  Five Fingers crossed the 600 mile boundary, 100 miles over the salesman limit.

Five Fingers - 605.84 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
19.250.250.500.0020.00

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Adam. Adam was the lab rat today, wore the HRM. His HR at 8:00 pace was 160. Oddly high, but he is conversational at that pace, and his resting HR is fairly high as well - 52. However, still Jeff's resting HR is about the same, and his HR does not get that high when he is as conversational as Adam.

I did a post-VPB acceleration which gave me some tempo running. Then we did 2x400 with essentially full rest. First one was 81.9. Adam's HR made it to 175. On the second one we got 85.6, and Adam's HR maxed out at 177. This is odd again. Based on Adam's conversational inclinations 8:00 for him is no harder than 6:40 for me. At 6:40 my HR is around 130. When I run a hard quarter (67) I max out at around 160. So 23% increase. Adam could only manage a 10% increase and it was not like he did not try. After two quarters in spite of a low HR increase he felt very fatigued.

We decided to measure his max HR. While Adam stopped to stretch a guy ran by us that knew who I was but I did not recognize him. He greeted me in Russian and demonstrated a reasonable degree of fluency in the follow-up comment. Provo-Orem area is very unusual. Right off the bat I could think of 4 guys in the area fluent in Russian that can do no worse than finish within 1 minute behind me in a 5 K. Not that my 5 K abilities are that great, but only a small percentage of the population would make the 1 minute back or faster cut off. So to find at least 4 Russian speakers in a population of about 200,000 that meet the requirement is remarkable.

On the max HR test Adam was supposed to run 7:00 pace for a mile and then floor it in the next quarter. He only made it to the mile in 6:59. His HR maxed out at 180 and he was not able to continue. This is just plain odd and wrong. Why in the world can his HR not go above 180 when he gives it all, while he is very comfortable and conversational at 160? Some kind of chronic nervous system fatigue. And it also comes on so suddenly. You cannot write it off as the lack of aerobic fitness. Adam has been running consistently enough to where stuff like this should not kill him.

Nervous system fatigue is an intriguing subject. One could argue that you always slow down due to nervous system fatigue. The slow down always happens because the brain is unable to override the negative feedback from the body. We call it cardio fatigue when the heart so weak that it produces too much negative feedback. We call it muscular fatigue when the acidity of the muscles is the driver of the negative feedback. But what about if the negative feedback is coming from somewhere else, or the brain is oversensitive to it? How do you deal with it? One naive solution is speedwork. Desensitize it. It does solve the problem when we are dealing just with an oversensitive brain. But there is another aspect. What if the brain does not have the drive to sustain a level of activity for a long period of time? Not sure if there is a physiology term for it, but I would call it neural endurance. The ability to fire BAM-BAM-BAM signals for a long time. From what I've observed, anaerobic speed work will desensitize the brain in three weeks and then will not do it any more (you can puke to death in your workouts with no results after that) but it does nothing to improve the BAM-BAM-BAM ability. In fact, done too much too often it reduces the neural endurance because the brain/nervous system can take only so much agitation. Even brisk aerobic runs (20 - 40 seconds per mile slower than marathon pace) done daily produce too much agitation and cut my BAM-BAM-BAM ability.

I wonder if the BAM-BAM-BAM ability accounts for 90% of the Quality X. How about that for scientific terminology? When you can feel it but do not know what it is called, invent a term. That is how all the scientific terms were invented to begin with anyway, except they have more scientific sounding names because the papers had to be published.

Cool down with Adam, finished 13 with Jeff, ran a mile alone, and another with Julia in 10:05. Total of 15.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:01 with Jenny running the first 1.5 with us in 12:47. 3 more after that, total time 39:51 for 5 miles.

Five Fingers - 625.84 miles. 


Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.60Total Sleep Time: 8.10
Race: Murray Fun Days 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:16:42, Place overall: 6
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.500.000.003.1116.61

A.M. Ran Murray Fun Days 5 K in 16:42, 6th place.

My plan from the start was to go out hard and see what happens. The warm temperatures made it difficult. I have a weird body. I can run well dehydrated but my heat sensors are very sensitive. This makes me quite a bit better than competition average in a survival race (hot marathon) because I am still fine when others start having cramps, stomach problems, etc, but worse than competition average in a hot 5 K because the heat shuts me down and I cannot get going.

There was too much trouble at the start to name. Right now in a 5 K any decent high schooler is trouble for me.

Ran the first mile as hard as I could, but 5:14 was all I had in me. It was uphill and into a slight headwind, but still I hoped to see 5:08. But we were out in the sun and the air just felt too hot. By then I was with Brian Summers and a guy from Montana whose first name I have forgotten but his last name I Michels I believe. Seth and Teren in the lead, they hit the mile in 4:53, and Alexander Thomas about 10 seconds back ahead of us.

Lost contact with the Montana runner and Brian on the 180 turn. Tried to push to regain it, breathing is OK, legs do not respond. Tried to get going on the downhill coming back, not much success, but closed the gap on Brian. The Montana runner had dropped Brian by that time. Caught up to Brian by 2 miles. 10:36. Wow. Only 5:22 for all this work on a downhill. One mitigating circumstance was 180 in the middle. That and the heat. No problem, life goes on. Just keep racing.

Last mile has a small net gain, and is up and down. Starts with a slight up. Brian gapped me shortly after I had caught up. I gradually reeled him in, and was able to attach. Then there was a short steep down. I used that to pass Brian and hopefully discourage him. Did not work, he passed me back and started kicking. Then shortly before mile three another guy from Colorado, his first name was Mike, the last name was either Hutchinson or Huntington, went by me as if I was standing still. We hit the short uphill, it turned out to be less steep than I remembered it. Hit mile 3 in 16:12, 5:36. Not as bad as it could have been.

Turned out Brian miscalculated how far away he was from the finish and started his kick too early. Once his kick was over I was able to pass him back and finish 5 seconds ahead of him. I could hear trouble from behind so I was kicking as hard as I could. I thought it was Brian, but it turned out to be our blogger Kyle Moffet. He finished 1 second behind me.

Times - Teren 15:06, Seth 15:33, Alexander 16:00, Montana runner 16:14, Mike H from Colorado 16:36, me 16:42, Kyle 16:43, Brian 16:48.

Looks like that I was 4th in the circuit, in a 5 K for me that is a steal and a lucky day. It is rather interesting that the best quality 5 K I've run this year was Magna, which was a week after a marathon. I think the two week taper helped me - I ran less than 80 miles the week of the marathon, and after that only 90. Other 5 Ks were run off 120 miles a week. Also I wonder if 120 miles a week affects me more in the summer when it is hot. All this time outside while the heat sensors in the skin keep hearing "slow, slow, slow, it is hot". And then I race, and the same message is still deep under my skin.

Also I am probably feeling it in a 5 K more than in a longer race because you have to run faster.

Ran 7.5 afterwards. Some of it alone, ran 0.5 rabbiting the kids race, a little bit with Teren, and more with Seth.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:34 with Jenny joining us for the first 1.5 in 12:55. Julia ran 1.5 with Sarah. Then took Jenny to the Y. We hiked from the trail head to the bottom of the Y in 22:21. Looked at the view, took some pictures, identified landmarks, and then headed down. Ran parts while going down, about 0.5 or so. The time on the way down was 14:11. The distance measured 0.95 in both directions. The elevation gain is about 1000 feet, so about 20% grade on average. My best time on that stretch running is 11:38.


Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From marion on Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 18:21:08

amazing... truly amazing. I love reading your reports. They are full of information and inspiring!

From Hayden on Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 20:53:13

Mike was about 20 something seconds and Jared was 16 seconds, i think, so not to bad. Nice race to yourself

From Chad on Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 23:50:03

Nice work, Sasha. I thought your comments about the reduced mileage paying off at Magna were interesting. If you were targeting the 5k it wouldn't make sense to run the miles you do at the paces you do. But perhaps there is a lesson in there that designing the schedule to back off the miles every now and then might give the body more of a break so it is able to respond when you need it.

From bc on Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 01:04:26

Sasha, good job today. I didn't have my garmin on in the warm up how far do you think we went.

Let's analyze our splits and see what happened, based on the race strategies we talked about before the race.

My mile 1 5:45 yours 5:14 I'm -31

My mile 2 5:41 yours 5:22 I'm -19

My mile3.1 6:46 yours 6:06 I'm -30

It might appear that we both started and finished with the same net effort, but in the middle of the race I must of worked a little harder. If a relaxed a little more in the middle would I have a stronger finish?? Or did I lose focus and effort as I was passed by a master half way up Vine Street. After relaxing about 20 meters, a quick splash in the face, and a hold on for dear life finish. What are your thoughts? I know I'm not going into these races fresh, but we always want to seek a better performance or aprroach to obtaining it.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 15:57:31

Bill - the gap on the last 1.1 was actually 40 seconds, or 36 seconds per mile. Let's add Teren into the picture:

4:53 - 4:50 - 5:23. Teren's gaps on me - 21 - 32 - 43 or 38 seconds per mile, on you - 52 - 51 - 1:23 or 1:14 per mile. Teren said he actually eased off a bit once he saw that he was safe from Seth, but I would guess it happened late enough in the race and his time was not affected very much.

I actually did not ease off in the second mile. I ran it as hard as my body would let me and was in a lot of mental pain.

I think you and I would have lost it on the third mile regardless of how we started. This is not a lactic fatigue. I bet if they measured our lactic acid levels during the third mile, Teren's would have been the highest, mine would have been the second highest but significantly lower than Teren's, and yours would have been the lowest but not much lower than mine because mine was pretty close to as low as it gets already. Why?

Both of us are aerobically fit as well as Teren if not better. But neurologically we are far behind. Which is the main reason he is able to beat us by so much. The third mile difference would suggest that my neurological fitness is a bit better than yours. Being able to beat you by a minute and half when you run as many miles as I do points in that direction as well.

To see if I am right. Put on an HRM and start running 5:30 pace on a flat well measured surface (track would work) and keep it until failure. After you fail, struggle for another mile or so to maintain the fastest possible pace. Watch the HR. When you struggle does it keep going up, or does it drop by about 5 beats a minute from what you got it up to at 5:30 pace? If it drops, the limit is neurological. If it climbs, I am wrong, it is cardio.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.0015.000.000.0025.00

A.M. Ran the same workout as last week - Provo Riverwoods 10 miler twice, first up, then immediate 180 and down. Except this time I had Jeff with me. Seth was going to come, but he stayed up late the night before and called in the morning bailing out.

The goal was again to beat Josse's time of 1:07:02 on the way up, and James' time of 56:42 on the way down. In spite of having raced yesterday Jeff's presence made up for the fatigue and we were able to meet both goals. Not without some suffering on my part though.

We did a brisk warmup averaging probably around 6:50 for the first 5 miles. After that Jeff stretched and we started the tempo portion from around the Bridal Veil Falls area right after the Walking Zone warning sign. I wondered to myself if it was OK to run through it, but did it anyway. About 6:10-6:15 while the grade was 2% then when it flattened out to about 0.5-1% about 5:55 pace with Jeff's initiative. Once we got to the South Fork climb, Jeff threw more fuel into the fire and put me in pain. I had to ask him to back off several times. This was an odd feeling. My HR never went above 155. But I felt like I was racing a 5 K, almost. At the same time, when I asked him to back off I was not thinking so much "we've got another 12 miles of this still ahead", but more "if they told me the finish is at the top and I am done for the day, I do not think I could go any faster". The good news is that I had enough confidence in my endurance to have no fear of bonking at the end.

We did the control 3.23 stretch in 20:42. 6:21 average, 48 seconds faster than last week. I think is my PR for that stretch period, not just in the middle of a 20 miler. If not, it would be awfully close. 1:06:05 first 10 miles, beat Josse's time by 57 seconds. Unchicked myself and very satisfied. Now 10 miles going down.

We hard a hard time shifting gears and goofed through the downhill where we really could have made up some time. Probably from the fatigue of climbing. 17:57 on the control 3.23 stretch, 1 second slower than last week. No problem, though. With Jeff pulling me we'll be OK.

We ran strong through the flatter parts although I did have to ask Jeff to back off a few times and finished the second half of the run in 56:11, 9 seconds faster than last week, and 31 seconds ahead of James. 2:02:16 for 20 miles, 1:44 faster than last week. Actually it is more like 20.14. But who cares, the run is Double the Provo Riverwoods 10 miler however long it may be. With all the climbing and then dropping it is not a normal course anyway.

Went to a show by the Provo Tabernacle with the family afterwards. During a puppet show the performer asked the kids if they knew who had written the Declaration of Independence. Benjamin raised his hand and gave the correct answer - Thomas Jefferson. The performer said - "Wow, they teach well in school nowadays!" Little did he know that Benjamin had always been home schooled.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:10, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:23, 2.5 alone in 18:43.

Five Fingers - 630.84 miles.

T4 Racer - 268.70 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Managed to play the Star Spangled Banner on the keyboard without mistakes with Sarah listening. Called Lybi, and being a bit more nervous with her listening over the phone made a couple of mistakes but recovered and was able to play it through. That is an improvement for me.

Also, a few days ago sang the Star Spangled Banner solo for Sarah and she gave me 5.5 out of 10. Off key only on a couple of notes. So, assuming  her rating system matches Daniel's, on a good day and a very familiar tune and stationary I can sing as well as Jeff running at 5:30 pace.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Comments
From Chad on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 14:21:16

Sasha--perhaps your Star Spangled Banner singing would improve if it were performed on a flat, sea level course in ideal conditions? Anyway, 5.5 isn't bad! I'm sure Sarah is a tough judge.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.400.000.600.0017.00

A.M. Decided it was time to cut back the mileage and add some intensity. This is going to be more experimental. The purposes are to test a) how it will affect the performance in shorter distances now that I've run 8 months of very solid base and b) how much of that speed will be retained once I go back to base mileage. My recent HRM data suggests that while I've received significant cardio gains from base building, I am running more and more into the 5 K speed limit. In other words, I cannot go any faster in the half because I am almost at my 5 K pace already. My hope is that the 5 K speed limit will budge more than it has in the past now that there is a huge aerobic base breathing down its neck.

Ran with Jeff and Daniel. Dropped Daniel off, finished the run with Jeff. Did one post VPB pick-up and we also tried to chase down a guy to recruit him for FRB, but he turned around early. Thus 0.6 of tempo running. Total of 13 miles in 1:41:50.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:52, 2 with Benjamin in 16:58 with Jenny running 1.5 in 13:11. One more without running kids in 7:28. Pushed Jacob in the single stroller the entire time. Played freeze tag in a park with Benjamin and two other kids. Lots of places to climb and hide at that park, so it was tough. Finally wore all of them down and froze them all. With reduced mileage felt energetic.

Five Fingers - 647.84 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Adam RW on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 15:28:14

I look forward to the test. My prediction is that you will see some great gains in speed. I hope I'm right.

From Jon on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 16:06:56

Glad to see you trying something new. Your huge base, complimented with some speed work will produce amazing results!

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 16:17:02

Jon - "amazing" is an unrealistic expectation. I've done lots of speedwork before with hardly any improvement as a result. Truly amazing results are much slower to come than the word "amazing" flies out the mouth of the average American. Marginally better if I am lucky would be more accurate. But marginally better is better than the same.

From Adam RW on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 16:36:26

So does that mean "great" is more realistic?

From Jon on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 17:08:25

Sasha- when the men's marathon world record improved by 29 seconds recently, I thought it was amazing. Granted, 29 seconds was less than 0.4% improvement from the old time, so the number itself is not overly impressive. But there is such a group of fast times right up to that point, that actually breaking it is impressive.

Likewise, you have a huge body of miles and race times in your running background. A 0.4% improvement in your 5k would be less than 4 seconds. But once you have established a firm history and then break through, it is amazing. Call it marginal if you want, but it is a breakthrough. And that is what I am predicting will happen with you. I seem to remember you commenting recently how you tried 120 mpw previously but with poor results compared to what you are accomplishing now. We shall see if the added intensity running has likewise more-successful results this year.

By the way, a simple "Thanks for the compliment" will suffice, rather than arguing with an intended compliment.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 17:48:01

Jon - was that meant to be a compliment? If you call a 0.4% improvement for me "amazing", this implies, "15:33 on the old Draper Days course in cool weather with no headwind is all you've got". Or "a low 2:23 in St. George on a good day is all you've got, you'll never do better".

From Jon on Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 19:33:44

It was meant to be encouraging/complimentary as you are trying something different. And I am not implying that .4% improvement is all that you will see. I meant that improvements can be small but still be amazing (like taking 29 seconds off the marathon world record). For you, I expect much better improvements than 4 seconds on a 5k or 30 seconds on the marathon. Something on the order of 2-3+ minutes at St. George.

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 00:11:14

I'd love to have a 4-second PR in a legitimate 5K. Those are hard to come by. I haven't had one in almost 10 years.

From sarah on Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 22:39:55

Hey Jon...I'll give a word of encouragement...you did right but just beware...Russians are really weird about compliments and smiling for cameras.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.750.000.256.0016.00

A.M. Power workout for me today. Ran with Jeff, Josse, and Michelle. Matt found us on the trail and joined us. The workout was 6x1 mile with 400 recovery on an almost flat stretch on the Provo River Trail alternating directions. The power training aspect came from towing Josse in a harness. This was going to give her some overspeed training. Who needs an overspeed treadmill when you have a harness and somebody to pull you? And who needs a hill when you have a harness and somebody to pull?

I did not know what to expect, but a rough goal was to allow Josse to stay with Michelle. This proved to be too hard of goal for a couple of reasons - Michelle was stronger than I expected, and the pulling Josse in a harness was not as easy as I initially thought. I expected to work at about 1-2% grade uphill effort, but it ended up being more like 3% grade or 20-30 mph headwind.

Splits: 5.47.9 (on this one we managed to stay with the pack), 5:51.5, 5:50.9, 6:02.1, 5:46.6, 5:53.4. Peak HR was 164 on the first repetition, after that it was between 166 and 168. Michelle chicked me on all the repetitions except the first. It was an interesting experience. I am running with everybody, and all of a sudden I am working the same, even harder, and they are pulling away as if I were standing still, and there is nothing I can do to keep up. The harness handicap turned Michelle into a virtual Kara Goucher from my perspective. This was a good chance to learn humility.

Towards the end I started to get the grasp of the art of pulling. Which is probably the same as the art of running uphill or into a headwind. To be successful it is very important to fire up the leg muscles as quickly as possible the very moment your foot lands. A quick explosion of energy, once you get going start relaxing the muscles, they've done their work, you're going, they can rest. Easier said than done, it is like saying all you need to do to play a piece on the piano is hit the right keys at the right time.

Overall a good debut of the FRB Towing Service. Josse enjoyed the workout, felt good, but we'll have to see if she gets the delayed onset soreness. I estimate she had just run the equivalent of 6x1 mile down a 3% grade. This could be hard on the quads.

Total of 12 miles for the run.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:55, 2 with Benjamin in 16:58 with Jenny running the last 1.5 with us in 12:56. 1 more with no running kids in 7:51. Pushed Jacob in the stroller the whole run.

T4 Racer - 280.68 miles.

Five Fingers - 651.84 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.33Total Sleep Time: 7.58
Comments
From luzylew on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 16:52:22

I saw the tow rope action this morning. So I had to read your entries to see what that was all about. After reading a bit, I have thank you for saying that if over time (speedwork, resistance,aerobic base) one becomes marginally better, then "marginally better, is better than the same." I know the application of that principle is vastly different for different types of runners, but that thought was very inspirational to me. Thank you for sharing it here. In fact, that phrase may be the title of my blog soon.

From adamr on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 17:52:04

Sasha, I have a pile of old tires that I might be able to lend you if you are ever unable to get a person to tow. There are even a few little ones (maybe 20-30lbs) that you could just drag on a normal run. Let me know and I'll see if I can get them to you.

From Walter on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 21:30:40

great workout sasha! I remeber doing that in high school. I should try it. Where do you get the harnesses? By the way, do you know who ended up with the 2nd place awards from WBR?

From Superfly on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 21:47:20

We need to get the Del Sol and WBR awards out to all the runners. Who has them and what do we need to do to get them out?

From James on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 22:41:21

I just got the white team battons from UPS today. Clyde, I'll bring your award to you next week. Sasha, I'll get the Provo guys awards to you. Do you still have all of the Del Sol awards and my headlight?

From Superfly on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 22:45:01

Sweet. If your coming down try to grab all the awards for me and the other guys down here. I know Dave and Logan were asking me about them a while ago.

From James on Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 22:47:52

I'll get them for the half.

From MichelleL on Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 10:30:59

Humility is good. I'm happy to hand you some, even if having you tow someone is the only way I can do it :) I think that's what I'm going to be handed at DesNews. I looked at the 2007 results again and the #5 girl was 35:19, and all top five seemed to be local, so not sure if 2007 was normal. If so I'll be knocked off the podium.

Thanks for the workout once again. I need to get better at doing hard workouts on my own. My gas tank is killing me.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.200.000.000.0017.20

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Daniel. Daniel ran 3 miles then turned around. Jeff was with me the entire time. We talked about education, how much difference motivation makes in the ability to learn and how to motivate kids to learn. Just as we were talking we saw the Provo High team with their coach Phil Olsen who also teaches Spanish. So we joined them, and gave them a pep talk. 13.2 miles in 1:43:13, 7:49 pace, avg HR 115.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:55, 2 with Benjamin in 16:49 with Jenny joining us for 1.5 in 13:10. 1 mile alone in 6:59.  Pushed Jacob in the stroller for the first 2.5 of the run.

Five Fingers - 668.04 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Breanna on Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 14:41:54

Sasha, I was just wondering which course do you think is harder Heart of Holladay or Murray?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 14:48:00

Not enough data to tell. They are very very close, close enough to where little variations in wind, temperature, and runner fitness could make one or the other produce faster times.

From cgbooth23 on Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 18:01:49

sasha, why isn't the blog page bringing up the daily running blogs?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.850.000.001.5016.35

A.M. 6x400 with 200 recovery with Jeff on the trail on a mostly flat section alternating directions. The target was 72 seconds but it was rather approximate. I did not want it slower than 73, nor did I want to hurt like 67. I was OK running a 67 if I could do it relaxed, but I did not want to become preoccupied with running 67s once I happened to get into that zone on accident.

On the first one we were overcautious in the first 200 - Jeff was waiting for me to go and I was waiting for him, so the first one was way off pace. After that we settled into a brisker groove and were ahead of target on all others. Splits (max HR in parenthesis):

75.2 (153) - 70.5 (161) - 69.8(161) - 67.6(166) - 67.6(165) - 68.0(164).

We had a forced extra stationary(for me) minute of rest before the last one due to Jeff's VPB. Thus lower HR at the same pace in spite of doing it later in the workout.

The thought that entered my head while we were in the 67-68 zone - why can't you run a 10 K like this? It would be nice, 68 400s gives 28:20 in the 10 K. I left that I lacked the power in the legs to sustain it. The heart could handle it just fine, I think. I would only need to be able to sustain the HR of about 180 for 28 minutes. I could do that in 2000. Then by 2004 I apparently experienced some dramatic cardiovascular gains and since then was never able to get my HR above 175.

Ran a long cool down (total of 13.35 for the run). Luz joined us shortly after we were done with the speed portion. Since she commented earlier about how easily Jeff handled 6:00 I volunteered him to sing for Luz. He got 8 out of 10 from her on the Star Spangled Banner at about 9:00 pace. Then I did it as well. Luz gave me a score of 5, I am wondering if that was too generous. She also gave me a more objective evaluation - completely off key 3 times, and flat 10 times. Have not counted the total notes in the song, but it appears that this would make it about only 20-25% error rate. This is a great improvement for me even for stationary singing.

Ran a mile with Julia in 10:00.

T4 Racer -  294.03 miles

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:28 with Jenny running 1.5 in 12:17. 1 more alone in 7:49. Pushed Jacob in the stroller.

Five Fingers - 671.04 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.851.250.000.0017.10

A.M. Total of 13.1 in 1:43:10. Started with Jeff, Matt joined us for a few miles. Did a VPB tempo for about 0.5 miles. Ran the last mile with Julia in 9:17.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:11 with Jenny running 1.5 in 13:03. Benjamin ran a 0.5 without Jenny in 3:08. It was out and back, and nasty rolling going under the bridge at 800 N on the trail twice. I was pushing Jacob in a stroller, so I figure this was about marathon pace effort for me. Then I ran 2 more in 15:25 pushing Jacob, most of it slow, but a biking couple passed me, and they were not going very fast. They were going slow enough to tempt me into picking up the pace, and I fell for the temptation. When the guy noticed that he was being followed by a runner with a stroller, he signaled the girl to pick up the pace, and they were gone. But not for long, they eased off and starting coming back. Then it was time for me to turn. I ended up running a quarter in 1:23 down about 0.5% grade.

Five Fingers - 688.04 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
17.250.000.000.0017.25

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Thatcher. Thatcher is 18. He set a PR for the longest distance ever run. I set a PR for the negative gap in age (17 years younger) with a running partner to go over half-marathon distance in one run. We ran 14.1 in 1:47:08, 7:35.8 avg. The weather was cool, so that kept my HR below 120 for most of the run. Then we had a 0.15 mis-start with Julia - she realized she need to go the the bathroom shortly after we left the house, so we went back. Ran 9:58 mile with her and Jeff. Then we ran 1.5 with Jeff, Jenny and Benjamin in 11:47, and Jeff continued with me and Benjamin for another quarter, and then Benjamin and I turned around. We finished Benjamin's 2 miles in 15:32.

Five Fingers - 705.29 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Set some serious recent sleep PRs.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 3.00Total Sleep Time: 12.00
Comments
From Samarai Smith on Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 23:25:10

Thanks for your encouragement with the running,I will certainly keep it in mind.

All the best with your running too, I will keep an eye on your blog to get some good training tips.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
3.0016.000.000.0019.00

A.M. DesNews practice run with Seth and Jeff. Got up at 4:30, picked up Jeff, met Seth at Hoggle Zoo. Drove up to the top of Big Mountain, the boundary of Utah and Morgan counties. Right on the Pioneer trek. Come come ye Saints, No toil, no labor fear, but with joy wend your way. Though hard to you this journey may appear, grace shall be as your day... And should we die before our journey's through, happy day, all is well. We then are free from toil and sorrow too, with the just we shall dwell...

In that spirit we started the run. The plan was to see how Seth's and my legs handle 5:00 pace down 8% grade. I was going to rabbit him running as hard as I could for as long as I could to keep him on pace, after I could not we were going to slow down to my marathon pace. Jeff drove down 3 miles to avoid the 8% down, and also to make it so he would not have to run the whole 16 miles.

Due to the differences in terrain mile splits were all over the place. I did have the Garmin for backup in case we missed the turn in the subdivision or a mile marker. But all the painted marks were visible and we were able to follow the course without problems. Splits are by the painted markers:

4:50, 4:51, 4:48, Jeff joined, 5:10. End of crazy downhill. I am hurting like it is time to sing the 4th verse of Come Come Ye Saints already, but still going. 5:24, 25:03 at 5 miles.

5:51. Now Little Mountain. Seth and Jeff are chatting, I am in pain. We are now definitely in my marathon pace territory, this is too slow for Seth. 6:36 mile and we are not done with the hill. Seth and Jeff are still chatting. I am thinking about those near death experience accounts when the nearly dead person is aware of what is going on in the room, even sees his own body, but cannot communicate. They are talking but I cannot add anything to the conversation. Done with the hill finally, now going down. Next mile in 6:07, then 5:19, and now I feel like I can talk more. Into the subdivision, up, then back down. Next mile in 5:52, 54:49 at 10 miles.

Seth at that point said he got the idea of course and the pace, and wanted to back down. We backed down to about 6:00 pace, but then he and Jeff backed down more, and I wanted to keep it faster than 6:00. So I took off.

5:58 (with some easing off), next two miles in 11:27, 1:12:49 at the half. Last three miles 5:35. 5:37, and 5:49 (with uphill). Total time 1:29:15 for 16 miles, 5:34.7 avg.

Jogged from mile marker 16 to the car and met Seth and Jeff. With that and the warm-up this added another mile.

Felt very energetic in the last 3 miles in spite of the aggressive start and the near death experience up the Little Mountain. Afterwards both Seth and I passed the hop test, no muscle soreness, at least yet.

T4 Racer - 311.03 miles. 

P.M. 1.25 with Benjamin, Jenny, and Julia in 12:46, dropped off Julia at the park, finished 1.5 with Jenny and Benjamin in 14:57. Then ran 3:08 half mile with Benjamin.

Five Fingers - 707.29 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.50Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Lyman on Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 17:41:28

I did the same route 9 days ago but u turned at wasatch and went back through the golf course and to the zoo. So what's the hop test?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 18:38:12

You hop on one foot. If you can without pain after running 15-20 miles hard, it is good.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.101.500.000.0013.60

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Josse. Did a VPB tempo of about 0.6 at marathon pace. Then we saw Matt and he said he was going to run a 5 mile tempo. So I decided to pace him 2.5 out and however long it took to get back to Jeff and Josse afterwards. We did 6:05, 6:02, then three more quarters in 1:32, 1:32, 180 turn, and 1:29. At that point Matt was 10 seconds behind the 6:00 guy. I admonished Matt to catch him. Do not know if he did, he has not yet posted his workout report. Total time for 10.6 was 1:18:37.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:51, then 2 with Benjamin in 16:46 with Jenny joining for 1.5 in 12:53.

Five Fingers - 720.89 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.25
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.700.400.000.0013.10

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff. Matt joined us for most of it. Total time was 1:19:50. Did 0.4 VPB tempo. 5:40 pace felt very easy, I was surprised it was 5:40, I did not think I was going sub-6:00.

Discussed various subjects from the art of fly swatting to DesNews pacing. We even discussed unsigned vs signed database fields and what happens when you insert a negative number into an unsigned field.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:57, Jenny joined for 1.5 in 11:37. 1 with Julia in 9:25. Pushed Jacob in a stroller. 

Five Fingers - 733.99 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.67Total Sleep Time: 8.42
Comments
From Jon on Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 19:01:24

Am I the cause of the negative number discussion? Don't worry, I'll fix all my miles for the week by tomorrow.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.160.000.000.0013.16

A.M. Easy run with Jeff. 10.1 in 1:17:55. Avg HR 115. Discussed nutrition, thus a lot of nutrition comments by me today.

P.M. 1.06 with Julia in 11:00, 2 with Benjamin in 16:25, Jenny joined for the first 1.75 in 14:38.

Five Fingers - 747.15 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.67Total Sleep Time: 8.42
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.100.000.000.0013.10

A.M. Easy run with Jeff. 10.1 in 1:16:50. Avg. HR 116. Discussed running form.

Tape worm story. Julia asked a question about mosquitoes and Benjamin explained that mosquitoes carry malaria. Then Jenny had follow up questions about the symptoms of malaria, which Benjamin answered as well. That got his mind on a related subject and he started telling the girls about tape worms, and how there is a kind that causes sleeping sickness when the parasite enters the brain and shuts it down. I did not know about that until Benjamin told me, and was not quite sure if he got his facts right, but after some research I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_sickness

and realized that Benjamin knew what he was talking about. Maybe a bit off on terminology, he could not remember  the term Trypanosoma brucei, so he called it a tape worm.

So right after we went to bed Jenny comes into our bedroom crying. "I am afraid to go to sleep, because Benjamin told me about the tape worm, and I am afraid that I will not wake up." It took some time to convince her that it was very unlikely that she would get infected with an African parasite.

P.M. Jared was visiting with us. Ted wanted him to run 3 miles. So he, Benjamin, and Julia first ran 1 mile in 8:54. Then we dropped of Julia and picked up Jenny, and ran another 1.5 in 12:53. Jared was not feeling good and ran slower. Benjamin was not feeling good after the run and decided to forgo the remaining 0.5 with Jared. Jared jogged through the remaining 0.5, his total time for 3 miles was 28:26. 

Five Fingers - 760.25 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From keri on Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 18:18:45

Hey Thanks for the info what I'm not sure about is on 1 day a week Sat I need to run as close to the 13 mile mark as I can or should i work up to farther. With my first 1/2 I was up to 12 miles once a week I would like to pr

on my next 1/2 any suggestions would be much appreciated!!

Thank You again!

From adamr on Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 20:17:27

Sasha, is this week part of your taper?

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 13:14:09

Adam - yes.

From Jennifer Pachev on Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 18:09:14

Daddy I read that .

Race: Draper Days 5K (3.107 Miles) 00:16:28, Place overall: 8
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.400.000.003.3011.70

A.M. Draper Days 5 K, 16:28, 8th place. The course has been changed. It is now a loop course with some moderate hills. The grade for most of the course is about 0.5-1%, a short (about 0.1) stretch of 3-4% climb about 2.6 miles into the race, not a spot that is flat - you are either going up or down. Definitely slower than what it used to be.

On the positive side of things, the temperatures were ideal this morning. If felt perfect.

Warmed up with Carol Cabanillas and Carre Joyce. Steve Ashbaker ran by with the ladies he is coaching. He was not in the race, but stopped by for a visit. We chatted a bit. He predicted that I would run 16:26.

Lots of trouble at the start. My plan was to run with Alexander Thomas regardless of how fast he went for as long as I could, then hang for as long as I could with every runner that passed me after that. Seth, Teren, and Stephen Clark were a few seconds ahead, then Alexander, Dennis, and me. I made it to about 0.75. Nate Hornok caught me, I managed to make it to the mile with him. First mile in 5:02. I was pleased. It was a slight up.

Nobody passed me in the second mile. It started out with a downhill stretch, and then it was a slight up. 5:17, pretty much what I hoped to run it.

Right after mile 2 mark Kyle Moffet passed me, and I was able to hang with him to the middle of the uphill at 2.6. Caught a split at 4 K - 12:58. Did the math, realized Steve was going to be right. Pushed myself as hard as I could on the last mile. 15:54 at 3 miles, 5:35. Not spectacular but acceptable.

Kicked at the end, last .107 in 32 seconds. My watch said 16:26, but my official time was 16:28.

Other times: Teren 15:08, Seth 15:26, Stephen 15:33, Alexander 15:36, Nate 15:41, Dennis 16:10, Kyle 16:20, Neal Gassmann 16:34, Thatcher's friend 16:36.

Ran back, paced Alexander Berry for the last 0.15 or so. He finished in 20:37. Then cooled down with Bill Cobler. Then talked with Mark Olsen and he had his timing gate handy. So we did a few sprints measuring top end speed for 10 meters. My best time was 1.42. Bill got 1.38. Breanna got 1.50. Thatcher's friend from Ethiopia whose name starts with a G (I will learn how to say and spell it some day) ran 1.11.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:48, 2 with Benjamin in 16:38. Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 12:36. Her friend Brinley joined us for a little over a mile and the mile that she ran was 8:25.

T4 Racer - 319.73 miles

Five Fingers - 763.25 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.83Total Sleep Time: 7.83
Comments
From Kim on Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 17:05:31

It seems crazy to me that you can run a 5K in 16:28 and be in 8th place! What is your 5K PR? You are an amazing runner! Have I ever thanked you for all you do for me and the rest of us? If not...thank you! You really have offered a lot to a lot of runners!

From Walter on Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 17:54:38

Nice run Sasha! Everyone was running so fast today! I havnt seen Neal Gassman around forever. Did you talk to him?

From jhorn on Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 19:04:35

Thanks for pacing Alexander Berry and inspiring me to kick it in to have a little pride in my kick. My name is Jesse, by the way. Neal hangs with the slc track club but I haven't seen him race til now. He's still crazy fast and is probably just rounding into shape.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:05:30

Kim - my loop course PR is 16:00. I've run 15:37 on the old Draper Days course which you could consider an honest course - certified, 0.4% elevation drop, but with some uphill.

The big question I have is what we can do to make the average runner to be more likely to come to a 5 K race because 10 people or more go under 17:00 on a certified hilly loop course at altitude rather than because it has good food, pretty age division trophies, or a raffle.

Walter - Neal is recovering from an injury. So he is not quite in his top shape yet.

Jesse - I did not realize that it was you, but figured it out later by looking at the race results. Odd that we've never met in person yet. I'll try to find you at the next race. Are you running DesNews or Minuteman 5 K?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Glorious day of rest. I told my body to relax and it did.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.500.500.000.0011.00

A.M. Started with Jeff and Daniel. Daniel turned around at 1.5. Then we met Luz and she ran a little bit more than 3 miles with us. Her 3 mile split was 24:21, mile splits - 7:57, 8:04, 8:21. This was not a planned tempo run for her. I noticed she was going around 8:00 and chatting, and I just did not say anything until she started slowing down when we hit the bridges and uphill with less than a mile to go. What boggles my mind is how in the world she manages to chat so much at a pace that she cannot sustain a mile later. She chats with as much ease at 8:00 pace as I do at 6:30.

Total time for 8 miles was 1:05:26, avg. HR 113.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:04, then 2 with Benjamin in 15:49, including 3:09 0.5. Pushed Jacob, and it had some hills, so counting this 0.5 as marathon pace. Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 12:40.  

Five Fingers - 774.25 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From luzylew on Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 17:27:48

It's not rocket science -- it's my lack of endurance (particularly the mental kind). Plus, it's the chatting that keeps me going easy. Once I focus on the running, it's all pain and suffering (all those boltushka training years....). Today however, was the first time I've done 3 miles in a row whilst trying to push 8:00 m/m. So far I've only ever run two full miles without a significant slow down on the third mile(30 or more seconds). I'll be running toward another 3 mile tempo run on Wednesday. So I'll keep practicing until I can do 4 sub 8:00's in a row. You'll see. But it's going to take me a while (also, not a good idea to suspect that ANYTHING IN THE WORLD can ever shut me up.... Aside from all the Danish Genes, I have a whole bunch of annoying scottish ones too).

From luzylew on Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 17:37:04

P.S. For the record, THAT is why I'm giving up chocolate. Anything I can do to build mental endurance/discipline will hopefully have a farther reaching effect than just being able to maintain a consistant 4 mile tempo run. Right?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.000.000.000.009.00

A.M. 6 miles with Jeff in 47:55. Daniel and Matt joined us at different times.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:30. Jenny joined for 1.5 in 11:55. 1 with Julia in 9:08. Pushed Jacob while running with Benjamin and Jenny. 

Five Fingers - 780.25 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From JeffC on Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 14:20:04

Are you on a mission to put 1,000 plus miles on those Five Fingers? :)

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 14:32:38

If they last only 1000 I'd be disappointed. I can take regular shoes to 2000-3000 miles. I hope to see 5000 miles out of them.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.000.000.000.007.00

A.M. 4 with Jeff in 31:59, then 1 with Julia in 10:03, and 2 with Benjamin in 16:41 with Jenny running 1.5 in 12:34. Pushed Jacob in a stroller. Jeff joined us for the entire run as well.

Five Fingers - 787.25 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Comments
From luzylew on Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 16:35:02

Good luck tommorrow Sasha! We're all rooting for you to do your very best! You've put in some 'charitable service hours' training the 'less fortunate' local runners (me)-- I hope some of that good Karma will come back to you in the form of feeling great on race day--wake up that sleeping tiger, right?

From cgbooth23 on Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 16:49:06

So Sasha i am going to bring up the subject, how do you advise on computing crosstraining miles? I remember you doing some X-country skiing this winter, did you do those mile for mile? Wondering because I usually start biking more as the fall rolls around and I'd like to keep track of these miles as accurately as possible.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 16:41:33

Chad - I convert cross-country skiing miles at face value. For biking, if you have an HRM, and assuming you did a fairly steady effort, take your average HR, calculate the pace you would have to run to keep up that HR, add a minute per mile or so just in case, and then divide the ride time by the virtual pace. I think this works for a ride under 1 hour quite well. Of course, you need to keep your HR above what you would get at the slowest pace that you still call running.

From Jon on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 17:01:45

Chad- a lot of people on the blog use a rough 3-to-1 conversion for miles (30 bike = 10 run). Sometimes less, if it is hilly, etc.

From cgbooth23 on Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:53:46

Sasha and Jon,

Thanks for the input on the bike miles, i will begin to convert these miles into running miles, as of now I never do a conversion, but to keep track of overall output it is nice to see what i have done on the rolling mileage board, especially as i look back to see what i did on my training!

Race: Deseret News Marathon (26.22 Miles) 02:34:43, Place overall: 8
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.5026.220.000.0026.72

Executive summary - 2:34:43, 8th or 7th place (depending on what they do with the Colorado runner that missed the turn into the subdivision), 1st from Utah, $500. 6 Kenyans at the start, 6 Kenyans at the finish. Looks like Bob Wood said no travel expenses unless you finish. Good move for him. Tight left calf from the start of the race contributed to running slow, and is hurting like there is no tomorrow now, but on the positive side quads seem intact. Details to follow.

Stayed with Adam Wende the night before. Got up at 2:45, made the bus without an incident (unlike last year). Noticed a tightness in the left calf during the warm up. I've actually had this tightness the entire week, but figured it was one of those taper cramps. For some reason the muscle responds to reduced mileage with occasional cramping. So when I felt it I thought, no big deal, it will go away because it always has even when I felt it on race day.

But it did not before the start. I figured it would go away as the race progressed, and proceeded to execute the plan. The plan was to hit pretty much exact same splits I did in the 16 mile tempo 10 days earlier, and then see how I would fare after that. Last year I started slow, ran strong after 10, then by 20 the strength had left me, and I finished at about the same pace I did in 2006 when I started fast only it took me a minute longer to get to 20, so I ended up finishing a minute slower.

I ignored the competition, and took off. I figured they would eventually catch me, and when they did try to hang with them for as long as I could, and I figured I wanted to be at the top of the Little Mountain with the Kenyans because then it is downhill again and I'd be able to hang with them a little more. Seth told me he was not feeling that great, so he wanted to start a little slower. Steve Ashbaker was there as well, and acted as a threat from behind if I let my guard down.

Downhill, 8% grade. 4:50, 4:51. Perfect. The first mile felt good, I was going to guess 5:00-5:10 by the effort. So I was pleased to see 4:50. Then the calf started hurting more and I eased off on the third mile. 4:52 instead of planned 4:48. Now gradual flattening out. 5:18 (plan 5:10), 5:35 (plan 5:25), and 5:56 (plan 5:45). Reached 6 miles in 31:15 vs 30:54 in the tempo run. Calf pain has been getting progressively worse, but I took it as a positive - when it goes away I'll be able to run faster. On the positive side, the breathing kept getting lighter. So at least the fitness was OK.

Right around mile 5 a white guy whose exact name I still do not know who is rumored to be from Colorado went by me and I could not latch on.

After the first 6 miles we started a climb up the Little Mountain. Back in the days of the old DesNews course when we did not experience the Big Mountain I wondered why that mountain was called Little. It is a climb of 1.5 miles during which you gain about 300 feet of elevation. That sounded pretty big, but not when you look at the Big Mountain that drops 1500 feet or so in 3-4 miles.

6:38, plan was 6:30. Seth passed me. However, he was not moving as fast as I expected him. That could mean two things. He is either holding back, or is he is as sick as he thinks he is.

I think the climb gave my calf a break and stretched it a bit. Next mile in 6:03 (plan 6:00), and I felt strong. However, now a VPB is looming. Does not look like I can hold it. Had to pull off to the side of the road and do my patented (clean!) 5 second job. Still managed 5:32 mile (plan 5:20).

The Kenyans finally caught me, and I ran with them for a minute or so. Went into the subdivision. This allowed me to measure the gaps. Seth had a bit less than a minute on me. Steve and a stray Kenyan runner were about 30 seconds behind. Next mile 5:56 (plan 5:45). I was hoping that running with the Kenyans would give me a better time on that mile. Reached 10 miles in 55:22, vs 54:49 in the tempo run.

Next 2 miles were both 5:37. I had an approximate plan of 5:30-5:35 for them as I was not exactly sure about their quality. During the tempo run I eased off at that point to about 6:00 with Seth and Jeff. But this was within range. However, 5:46 on the next mile gave a cause for concern. What was strange is that I was not feeling bad, nothing was wrong except I felt I was running way too easy but could not go any faster. Probably what was happening is that the calf kept getting tighter and tighter, but because of the endorphines the pain was not getting any more acute, nevertheless the push off power kept getting reduced, so I was running slower and slower.

1:12:57 at the half vs 1:12:49 in the tempo run. Even with the ease-off between 10 and 12 I still could not catch my tempo run guy. Next two miles in 5:50 and 5:49. 1:24:01 at 15 miles vs 1:23:26 in the tempo run. The plan was 5:35 for both. At this point I realized I needed to ditch the plan and just hang in there hoping Steve won't pass me, and hoping for the best in general. Maybe the calf pain will go away and I'll be able to close strong.

Saw Seth in the distance. My first thought was that he failed to keep up with the Kenyans when they caught him, and from that point just decided to run for first Utahn, the slowest it takes. Which would mean he would run with me, then blow me away on the last mile. That's OK, at least I'll have somebody to run with. Or maybe not, maybe he is just plain out of commission with no guile involved.

The stray Kenyan runner caught up to me, and I followed him for about a mile. We ran the next mile in 5:48, which had the uphill by the Hogle Zoo. This gave me 1:29:48 at 16 miles vs 1:29:15 in the tempo. This gave me some hope. However, the next two miles showed the hope was vain. I felt decent but the pace kept getting slower. The next two miles which were a net downhill produced a split of 12:24, 6:12 average, and a 1:42:12 split at 18 miles. The grim reality of having to run slower than 6:00 for the rest of the race began to show its ugly face.

By this time I had caught up to Seth. We chatted. He told me he was struggling. I told him to run with me and finish the race no matter what. 1:54:41 at 20 miles. 12:29 for the next 2 downhill miles. At least it is not getting any uglier. Seth dropped back.

I felt very perky on the next uphill mile. So perky that I thought for sure it would be under 6:20. Good luck - 6:42. Last year 6:33. I guess the quads were perky, the fuel system was perky, but the dysfunctional calf spoiled the show. Next downhill mile in 6:07. Last year 5:45. So we are starting to see a pattern. I am losing in both direction, but more on the downhill.

Mile 23 brought some excitement into the drudgery. 6:14 with some uphill on 13th South. I see a Kenyan ahead of me, but do not feel like going out of my way to chase him down. What's the glory in passing a Kenyan that is in a hopeless out-of-money position? He is just doing a training run to finish. Now if passing him meant his money is now yours then it is a different story. Then you indeed are racing a Kenyan.

Mile 24 in 6:20. Two more to go, and all of a sudden it is warmer as the course turns from the shade South Temple into the sun on 300 East. The downhill ends as well. Mile 25 in 6:24.

Now the nasty last mile. It starts going uphill, it is still out in the sun, and it has a long stretch of straight road, you count the blocks. I guess the problem with the straight road is that when you are in pain you can maintain your focus better by setting small goals. Get to this landmark, then get to that landmark. Luckily I know how nasty it is, I also know exactly where you turn, and I know how blocks work in Salt Lake City. So that makes it easier.

2:33:15 at mile 26, 6:47 split. Very unspectacular, but with the calf problem could be a lot worse. And as usual, my local competition suffered more than I did at that point, so nobody passed me. Last 385 yards in 1:28, 6:42 pace for the "kick".

Steve Ashbaker was about 30 seconds behind me at 20 miles, about 1 minute behind me at 25, and then he had to stop for a couple of minutes to throw up. So he finished in 2:38. Seth barely held off Bill Cobler at the end finishing in 2:45.

The top Kenyans were very fast. The results have not yet been posted, but according to:

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700245616,00.html

Joseph Chirlee 2:18:16, Jynocel Baswell 2:19:31, Edward Korir 2:19:51, Jon Ndambuki 2:20:33. Ndambuki ended up out of money with the fastest time he's ever run on this course (2004 does not count, it was short).

P.M. The calf was very sore. Could not walk without a serious limp for a while. Iced it, Sarah massaged it, then Josse massaged and scraped it. After Josse's magic it felt a lot better. I could walk without a limp and could even jog a bit. Nevertheless I rode my bike for the kids run tonight just to be safe. Julia ran a mile in 9:37, then Benjamin ran 2 miles in 17:07 with Jenny running the first 1.5 in 12:59. Not counting biking miles because they were too slow.

T4 Racer - 346.45 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 5.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 5.00
Comments
From sarah on Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 16:37:52

Well I think it's only fair that I get to be the first to post on here...I don't think that's ever happened before. Yay for 500 more dollars towards the van fund...keep reminding me to massage that calf and we will get it feeling good by Tuesday is my guess. Good work despite some opposition. I love you.

From superfly on Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 18:59:05

Good job. Somehow you pull it off every year. Hope the calf feels better.

From luzylew on Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 19:44:45

I'm so sorry to hear about the calf muscle. That must have been rough running. But still, 8th place! Sounds like Sarah's pretty happy about that! I mean, yay for the family van right?! You are a great example and inspiration to us all. Hopefully, you can nurse your leg back to health very soon.

From Adam RW on Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 21:29:44

Way to stay strong the whole way through even with a nagging calf. That alone would have done in a weaker runner. As always great to talk to you the night before and I'm glad the race worked out for you. Can't complain about top Utahn and $$$.

From Dallen on Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 22:21:03

I looked back and it appears that your time in this race has gone up a minute each year since 2005. Any explanation? It seems like overall you are improving, why the negative trend here?

From Falcon on Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 23:27:57

My dad and I saw you finish. Way to run Sasha and congrtulaysions on winning $500

From Lucia on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:22:07

Congratulations Sasha! What was your hydrating/fueling strategy through the race? Do you elite runners have special treatment and can have your own energy drinks/gels at water stations?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:54:33

Dallen - not exactly sure. This year I do have an explanation. It was an odd race due to the calf issue. It is very apparent from the splits, perception of effort, and post-race quad soreness (none). Last year I think I had not done enough downhill training. 2005 was on a different course, but I trained more on the Squaw Peak Road. In 2004 I lived on the Squaw Peak Road and in the Provo Canyon. The course was short by about 900 meters, so my adjusted time would be around 2:29. That year I also hit much faster splits in the first 3 miles which shows a better downhill ability - 4:36, 4:41, 4:29. The Kenyans did not get me until 9.5, and I was able to stay with them until 11.

Lucia - DesNews did not offer elite aid stations, but St. George does. However, after my last year experience I decided it was not worth the hassle. I find it sufficient to drink whatever they happen to have at aid stations when my body tells me it needs it. No special strategy. I just listen to my body and obey the signals.

From Tom on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 11:56:10

Congratulations Sasha on hanging tough as usual in the face of opposition (your misbehaving calf in this case), and getting the 1st from Utah along with the $$$. Hope with some help from Sarah you can get the calf all worked out and be good as new soon.

From wheakory on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 13:20:20

Great run Sasha. Great determination to run when you find your body not quite at a 100%. Your fitness is what really pulled you through. Getting some cash while not at a 100% can't be bad at all.

From tarzan on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 15:26:01

Congratulations on hanging in there and being first Utahn. I am impressed - the Des News is a tough race and must have been even harder with a calf injury.

From lybi on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 16:07:03

This is the course that always beats up the quads so much, right? Good job! Look at those sub-5 splits! So sorry you had to battle it out with a painful calf. This might be a good time to finally experience scraping! You'll be impressed, I think.

From peggy on Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 23:22:45

Congratulations, Sasha, on hanging on and running a good race under less-than-ideal conditions. I was at the finish line and saw you finish, and you looked good coming in. Way to go!

From Jennifer Pachev on Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 18:00:39

You call that biking slow. I had a hard time keeping with you.

From walter on Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 22:44:28

Very nice race Sasha! I wish I could remember my miles split times from a year previous! I know exactly how Seth was feeling on that course it is the hardest course ive ever run on! Good to be patient and let the fallen soldiers play out in the race huh!? I still think you should have worked on beating that kenyan! maybe if the calves were better. Im proud of you man! Good Job!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.000.000.000.008.00

A.M. The calf was runnable, but I decided to give it some rest and bike anyway. Rode my standard 10.1 course in 37:12, 3:41 per mile average, or 16.29 mph. Was pleased with that given that the trail has a lot of places where you have to slow down, and I had to get off the bike to make a 180 (did not stop the watch for that). On a straight flat stretch I was going about 3:20 per mile pace, or 18 mph. The bike does have issues. It is a 30lb old mountain bike that has not been maintained. The third (highest) front gear does not work. The second gear makes a funny noise, the chain is rubbing against something. The frame is too short and the seat does not go up very high. I did 17:52 going out, and came back in 19:10. Out is a slight downhill. HR maxed out at 149, and averaged 134. To get that HR running I would need to be going about 6:20 pace. So I figure if we say I worked at around 7:30 pace equivalent we can call this a match for 5 miles of running. Will run with the kids tonight and possibly some more if feeling good.

P.M.  1 mile with Julia in 11:25, 2 with Benjamin in 16:44. Jenny joined for 1.5 in 12:48. Calf felt good enough to run on without limping, but still painful. Wore my cushioned old running now mostly walking shoes. Nike something, do not remember what, too lazy to take them off to find out. I did run DesNews in them last year, though. I imagine they have about 3K miles. But for me it is a cushioned shoe.

Night Sleep Time: 8.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.200.000.000.0013.20

A.M. Woke up, the calf felt significantly better walking, but still quite a bit of pain. Nevertheless, good enough to run 10 miles on. Was originally planning on running in my old Nike shoes to get more cushioning, but then had a crazy thought - try Five Fingers. Somehow in spite of all logic against it the feedback from my body was that Five Fingers would be a better option. So I put them on.

Was able to run with only minor pain right from the start. As the run progressed, kept adjusting the form to minimize the calf strain. Eventually I figured out how to turn the calf slam into a calf stretch. Amazing! All you do is dorsi-flex the ankle (pull the foot towards yourself to make it look like you are duck) prior to landing, and it does not hurt. You are just getting a pleasant calf stretch from the impact. I kept speeding up from 9:30 pace at the start to 7:00 pace at the finish. My total time for 10.1 was 1:16:58. The calf felt the same when I was done.

Jogged another 0.1 to meet Sarah and jogged with her some more, but will not count is as running mileage since she was going around 15:00 pace. My rough standard for running mileage is sub-12:00 unless recovering after a hard interval.

The quads were only very slightly sore, but so were the gluts and the hamstrings, and I am not sure if it is from the marathon or yesterdays bike ride. So the calf problem perhaps was a blessing in disguise. It forced me to run slower, and not hammer the rest of the body so much. This is actually the first time I came out of DesNews with quads that I can run on the next day without wanting to scream. So I guess now I know the secret, or at least one way to do it. Run race pace for the first 2 miles, a little slower later on, get to the half in 1:13, then gradually taper off to 6:20-6:30 pace in the last 8 miles. I have always wondered if I could avoid soreness by running it slower, now I know.

Recalled a conversation after DesNews. I could barely walk afterwards. As I limped towards Matt's car, I wondered out loud: "How in the world did I manage to run 6:45 pace in the last mile on a calf that now would not even let me walk without a serious limp?!" One runner overhead it and answered: "By the grace of God!"

I contemplated the depth of the answer and agreed with his assessment. Of course, there is a physiological explanation. I was already running at mile 25, my HR was higher, there was more blood flow to the damaged area, the muscle was warm, the endorphines were helping me dull the pain, and being in a mental state of racing helped my brain disregard pain signals as well. But I wonder how often we provide those technical explanations that in essence say something to the effect "it worked because it worked", "the car was moving because its wheels were spinning while in contact with the ground", and in the process having filled our minds with enough non-essential detail and thus satisfied our curiosity, or at least having satiated our ability to receive knowledge, we fail to understand the more profound force behind the event. We acknowledge the creation and its mechanics, but fail to give credit to the Creator. Why? Because He does not reveal Himself unless we have faith. With faith, we gain the ability to see past the fact that the spinning wheels make the car move and are able to recognize that the car is moving because somebody is driving it, and that it will go where the driver wants it to be.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:48, 2 with Benjamin in 16:34, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 12:43.

Five Fingers - 800.55 miles.



Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From JeffC on Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 13:59:34

I enjoyed your comments for the past couple of days. Thanks for sharing. It lets me know that even the elites are human and suffer many of the same aches and pains as the rest of us, they just have a god given talent to run and recover much faster. Due in no small part to their incredible training, drive and dedication. Thanks.

From marion on Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 19:34:49

Thanks for the last paragraph. It's is SO true! I really needed it today! :)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 10.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.170.000.000.0013.17

A.M. 10.1 with Jeff in 1:20:38. James, Matt, and Daniel ran with us at some points. Then 2 with Benjamin in 16:49. Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 12:40. Jared ran with us for the first 0.75, but then fell back. He finished 2 miles in 17:57.

Had a thought about modern day scientific understanding of running, the dark ages, and the printing press. Back in the dark ages only select few knew how to read and had access to books. The two were connected. If you do not get to read, there is little motivation to learn how to read. If you do not know how to read, books present little value to you. You can only learn by talking to those who know how to read and have access to books. You have no choice but accept their word, that is the best you can do. Vicious cycle of ignorance.

I think our understanding of running (and many other things as well) is still in that cycle to a great extent. The average runner has no way of measuring much - distance, time, heart rate, body weight and stride rate are about the only things that a middle class home budget runner is able to measure on a daily basis. Maybe blood glucose and cholesterol if you are willing to poke yourself every day. Lactate levels if you are willing to poke yourself and pay $900 for the device. You could measure pH of your body fluids, and electric properties of the body. There are a number of smart alec devices that think they know how much body fat is on you from the electric properties of your body. But I would not call this a body fat measurement. This an electric current measurement that is being used for an almost wild guess estimate. Maybe I missed a few more measurement opportunities, but the point is, there are lots of things we can measure in a lab compared to what we can measure at home.

Because lab equipment is so expensive, most people do not have access to it. Because they have no access to it, even those who can study how that equipment works have only a superficial knowledge of the meaning of those measurements. Even those who have access to it who we consider experts are still at the level of a dark age scholar compared to what it could be if those measurements were affordable enough to be done by the general public in their own homes. There is little motivation for the general public to learn what that equipment can do and how to read the results. Thus we have the same vicious cycle of ignorance. On a different level than in the middle ages, but still the same pattern.

The vicious cycle of ignorance was broken by the invention of the printing press. All of a sudden your average Joe had a reason to learn to read! It is starting to happen a bit in the way we understand how our body works, but there are obstacles. I believe we would see a lot more affordable scientific equipment if the public was more interested in practicing science than in watching a TV show about science. But a TV show about science is about as scientific as we get in our pursuit, for most people that is a pinnacle of their mind training for the day. If we could make it the very low point instead of the very high point, eliminating the mind-numbing, aptitude decreasing, and time wasting entertainment from the lower spectrum we might see more sub-2:10 marathoners among with many other positive developments from this change. If, only if. If mushrooms grew in a mouth, it would not be a mouth, it would be a garden!

P.M. 1.07 with Julia in 11:05.

Five Fingers - 812.65 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From haynes on Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 18:52:42

Interesting post. I don't have much to add. But how many miles are you planning on putting into those five fingers? I guess that the rubber doesn't wear down the same way that most shoes' foam parts do. They seem a little risky at least for a high mileage runner like you. Stress fractures take 6 months to heal.

From luzylew on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:45:28

Sorry I couldn't run with you guys on Monday. It looked like a good running party. Everyone recovering from the Marathon and such. I hope the calf is healing. It's not a stress fracture is it (per Haynes's comment)? I hope not.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 13:38:58

Luz - no, it is basically a taper Charlie horse problem. Similar to what Logan experienced during the Ogden marathon, except not so drastic. I woke up with a tight calf a couple of days before the race, and it never fully healed before I started. Today it was still a bit tended but good enough to run 6:00 pace to pace Michelle. It has been getting better ever since Josse scraped it.

Haynes - my goal for Five Fingers is to see if they will still be runnable by 5000 miles. I have been taking my shoes routinely to at least 2000 miles in the last 23 years. One time I took a pair to 5600 and was upset because I had to replace them. I thought, this is not some Soviet made piece of junk, those are good American shoes. I've only had them for a couple of years, why is there such a huge hole in the sole?

Never had a stress fracture or any other injury that would make it impossible to run for more than 3 days the entire time. I documented my life time injury history at

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,465.0.html

From haynes on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 14:26:29

Well, if stress fractures aren't a problem, the vibram rubber used in five fingers is about the toughest stuff I know of. I just worry that the non-vibram material which I think includes elastic might break down especially if exposed to heat. Do you wear socks with the five fingers? If so are they socks with individual toes? And what surfaces do you run on? Is it mostly pavement or do you get a fair amount of dirt? I am impressed that you get 2k miles out of shoes regularly. When I don't turn them over on purpose they tend to get holes around 1000 miles. What kind do you buy?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 18:46:39

Haynes: I wear no socks, run on asphalt, and use the classic version of Five Fingers.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.136.000.000.0014.13

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Michelle, and Josse. Jeff paced Josse, while I paced Michelle through a 3x2 mile workout with 200 meter recoveries. We ran them on the trail alternating directions starting at the start of the 5 mile tempo. The times were 12:00.7, 12:01.4, and 11:51.2. Michelle wore the HRM while I wore the watch so I could see how hard she was working in terms of cardio. She was not working at all according to the HRM. Most of the time her HR hovered around 174-175. It would get there in the first 5 minutes of the interval and then just stay there or even drop a bit. But she struggled maintaining the pace. I challenged her to get her HR to 190 in the last mile of the last interval. She tried, was able to hit 177 briefly, then lost it back to 174. Then in the last quarter (1:22) she was able to bring it to 180, but she could not hold it there. Last mile was 5:53. I told Michelle she needed to remove stress out of her life and get more sleep.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:04, 2 with Benjamin in 14:58. Jenny joined for 1.5 in 11:30.

Five Fingers - 826.78 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.25
Comments
From Maria on Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 14:50:25

Are you sure Michelle did 2x3 miles? Because the times you listed are a bit too fast, even for you and Michelle :). I'm guessing it was either 3x2 miles, or 3x3K.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 14:52:41

Maria - it is a typo. The workout was 3x2 miles.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.521.000.000.0013.52

A.M. Ran with James, Jeff, and Matt at different times. Total of 10.27. James, Jeff, and I started together and warmed up for 1.38. Then I paced James through 6:00 pace until failure test. He made it to the mile in 5:56 with HR reaching 199. After that he suffered through another quarter in 1:36. His HR dropped to 197. I challenged him to bring it over 200, but he could not. He said the limit was not being able to get enough air. Looks like a cardio weakness, probably maturation related. Breanna had a similar problem about a year ago, and eventually grew out of it.

Then ran with Jeff the rest of the way after jogging back to him. Of all things the subject of our conversation drifted to microwave safety. I recalled a time when I was messing around with a microwave trying to crash its computer. So I was pressing lots of buttons randomly. Eventually the microwave responded with a message that said : Child. Jeff recalled a story about how he and his brother fried oats in a microwave. His younger brother (2 at the time) put in his oats into the microwave and tried to cook them. He was pressing all kinds of buttons randomly. Then Jeff (5 at the time) came and said, no this is not how you do it - Mom told us pres 1,3,0,Start. So he did that, except there was a number on it earlier from his brother's messing around. So the oats cooked for quite a while and caught on fire.

Ran into Matt and ran with him some as well.

A.M-2 Took VanGoGo to Computune to check out the anti-lock break light on problem and ran back with Benjamin and Jenny - 2.25 in 19:31.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 8:57. She earned the Saturday lunch out with Daddy prize. The standards are 9:00 for 1 mile for Julia, 1.5 in 12:00 for Jenny, and 0.5 in 3:10 for Benjamin. Benjamin has a shorter distance because he normally runs 1.5 with Jenny - I decided to make him do that to keep him from speeding on his daily runs.

It did take a trick to get Julia to do it, though. I pulled ahead shortly before the turnaround and said - Julia, if you are behind at the turnaround, we are going past it until you catch me. This got her to pick up the pace and hit the half mark in 4:35. After that it still took some work to convince her that she was capable of getting the standard with some reasonable effort, but it was not exceptionally hard.

Five Fingers - 837.05 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 8.25
Comments
From Runnman on Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 19:54:29

Sasha, I have a calorie question for you. As I do some running on the treadmill I notice the estimated calories burned. The monitor says I burn about 115 calories per mile. If that is correct I will be burning just over 3000 calories during the marathon. How many of those calories do you think need to be restored DURING the race? Gel packets only contain about 100 calories each.

Ken

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:30:27

Ken:

I don't know and I honestly don't care. Fuel is important, but I do not know of anyone who has run a better marathon by counting calories. Just eat normal healthy amounts before the race as you taper, get good sleep, avoid stress, and during the race fuel according to the patterns that have been successful in your training, and you'll be fine.

From Jon on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 14:34:25

Ken- lots of running guides say studies have shown that your body has enough stores to get you through about 20 miles without additional fuel (depending on diet/carbo load). So you would need about 600-700 additional calories, either through sports drinks or gu's. I find that 2 gu's and taking gatorade at the aid stations is enough. Some people do more gus, some do none, some only drink water. Like Sasha said, it is an individual thing, but this should give you an idea of what you need.

From MichelleL on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 15:03:38

What does lunch out with Daddy mean in the Pachev family? You get the privilege of running a noon run with Daddy? Or you get to walk to the park and eat your raw oats and dates there instead of at home? Or did you take her to an all you can eat pizza buffet (my kids favorite place to go)?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 15:21:08

Michelle: Lunch with Daddy = a sandwich at Great Harvest + a smoothie at Jamba Juice.

Ken: To throw a curve to the calorie scientists. Mike Kirk beat me in Ogden 2006 coming from behind and running stronger in the last 3 miles. I did OK, but he did better. After the race he was clean - no Gatorade spill. Somebody asked, he said he took nothing except water the entire race! He was not loafing, either, racing at a speed that very closely approached his 5 K performances around that time ADJUSTED FOR THE COURSE PROFILE. Where did his calories come from?

From MichelleL on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 15:25:59

Oh, that sounds so good. I consider myself chastised for my snideness. But I could appeal to your frugality: Do you know that a slice of bread at Great Harvest is 50 cents if you don't buy anything, and a jamba juice and a slice of bread have comprised many breakfasts and lunches over the years. The cost of a Jamba Juice has gone up, but the 50c slice hasn't had any food inflation yet.

From Jon on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 15:48:51

Sasha- there are certainly exceptions and some people can do with just water, like Mike. But 500 or so calories of gu, gatorade, or bananas is helpful for many people. http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244--12522-0,00.html

You burn more per hour in a marathon than an ultra (running faster) but the calorie absorption would be about the same- ~260 calories/hour.

Sasha, glad to see you like Jamba Juice. I often get Jamba cravings during my long runs- I went there and got a large after my long run last Saturday. Very yummy.

Michelle- your snideness made me laugh.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.750.250.000.5013.50

A.M. 10 with Jeff in 1:19:24. Benjamin rode his bike for 2 miles, then ran a warmup, then we did 6:00 pace until failure, which came at the quarter (1:29). Then he jogged 400, then tried 0.5 under 3:10, went through the quarter in 1:37, was losing it, and eased off to a jog. Still ran 0.5 in 3:30, and then we jogged back to his bike. Then we took him home, and ran 4 more miles. Ran 0.5 in 2:29 to feel the 5 K pace for the Minuteman 5 K this Saturday.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:48, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:15, and one more mile with no running kids in 6:40. Pushed Jacob the entire time. 

Five Fingers - 850.55 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Katie on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 15:10:36

Yet another downhill race?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 15:13:30

No, it is a loop course with some hills. Exact same course as Draper Days. Pretty much exact same competition to establish the curve if it is hot/windy. So this gives me a chance to measure the effects of the marathon on my body in addition to earning circuit points.

From katie on Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 16:22:17

okay. cool. couldn't find an elevation profile and i'm beginning to feel suspect about races in your region.

this spring i ran a pr 5k only 6 days after a marathon. mind you, i mostly jogged the 26.2, so that may be a difference, but it seemed to me the 5k required a different system and with the fresh memory of running of 26.2 feeling lousy, 3.1mi fast felt super fun and easy, like a treat.

not the same for everybody though. high mileage does = speedier recovery though. i suppose not too many runners would/could even attempt it.

-enjoy.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.500.000.000.0013.50

A.M. 10 miles in 1:18:49. Jeff ran with me all the way. Daniel came to borrow the bike, and rode with us for a little bit to test the tire before taking off. Benjamin rode with us to a nice part of the trail, then ran 2 miles in 15:28 with 0.5625 in 3:32 (this was supposed to be 0.5, but we missed the mark and went 1/16 of a mile further). About 0.6 into the run we found Matt and he joined us.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:57, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:13, and 1 more with no running kids in 8:02. Pushed the double stroller, first with Jacob and Joseph, then traded Jacob for Julia. Benjamin rode along on his bike during Julia's and Jenny's runs. Jenny almost got bit by a German shepherd that got out of the gate and was roaming the street attacking the passers-by. It sniffed her but then got scared of something and ran away. 

Five Fingers - 864.05 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Race: Minuteman 5 K (3.107 Miles) 00:17:07, Place overall: 15
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.500.000.003.1114.61

A.M. Minuteman 5 K 17:07, 15h place. Same course as the new Draper Days.

Warmed up with Seth and Jeff. At the start was not feeling super-energetic. Part of the problem was warm weather, but only a part. I could blame it on the post-marathon fatigue, but there was not that much of it. Maybe the combination of reduced mileage, the marathon itself, and the tight calf issue brought on the slump. Something was not right, I suppose we will find out if this is just a post marathon slump or something more serious.

First mile was OK, 5:04. 2 seconds slower than Draper Days. I brought the HRM this time. HR climbed up to 168. I was running with Dennis at this point with a whole bunch of guys led by Teren ahead of us. And I knew they were not coming back. I did not feel like I was breathing too hard, but legs started feeling a bit shaky.

On the second mile the legs started to give out, and I backed off. HR dropped to 165-166. Neal Gassmann passed me. I tried to latch on, and was able too, HR climbed to 168, but then the legs started feeling too weak to hold the pace, and I backed off. Danny Oliva passed me, again the same story as with Neal - was able to follow a bit, then legs feel weak, cannot do it. 9:49 at 3 K, 10:33 at 2 miles, 14 seconds slower than Draper Days.

4 K 13:23, now 25 seconds slower than Draper Days. Not good. HR hovers around 166-168. Managed to push it to 172 on the hill. Steve Ashbaker passed me shortly after the hill. Made it to the finish in 17:06.3 on my watch, 17:07 officially. 39 seconds slower than Draper Days!

Jeff ran great - third place with 15:31 in that company, only 17 seconds behind Teren. Seth was second with 15:30 (officially, mistimed, though, his time should have been 15:27), Teren won with 15:14. Alexander Tomas was fourth with 15:33. Some other times that I remember:

Dennis 16:01, Josh Steffen 16:16, Neal Gassmann 16:20, Augustus Grey 16:21, Thatcher 16:48, Steve 16:57.

Ran a long cool down starting out with Jeff, Seth, and Teren, then Jeff turned around early due to time constraints, Seth stopped earlier as well.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:38, 2 with Benjamin in 16:51 with Jenny running the first 1.5 in 12:59 with us.

T4 Racer - 358.06 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From adamr on Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 18:39:08

ouch...not too good today.

maybe a bug or something is getting passed around. I felt pretty much like that on my run today as well. not something to make me feel completely sick during the day but enough to make me feel zapped on the run.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 20:02:26

I looked at all of my races this year and noticed a pattern that although I ran course PRs and overall high quality races when it was cold, all of the ones in warm weather without exception have been sub-par. Not that I feel dehydrated or sick when it is warm, but for one reason or another this year I am noticing a greater degree of heat sensitivity in performances. I'll test that theory this week in a workout and in Provo River Half as well.

From Dale on Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 21:19:00

It's the tough ones that help make us stronger. I know heat definitely does it to me too, but as you said you've also got your calf issues, a recent marathon, etc.....perhaps just the "perfect storm" of issues combined with an off day? I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it and be back on top in no time.

From adamr on Sun, Aug 03, 2008 at 00:40:00

maybe try some of the methods they are using to prep for beijing as well. can't really hurt.

I can say I wouldn't feel hurt if more summer races started at 6 AM. Some of these 8AM or later races are just begging for the heat to come.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.650.000.500.0016.15

A.M. Did not sleep well because my skin was itching. It does not like the sun. It actually has been itching for a while. But I was able to stay in bed. This time I woke up at 5:10 and did not feel like I'd be able to fall asleep soon enough to get anything out of it, so I decided to just get up.

Started with Jeff, James, and Benjamin on a bike. At 2 miles hid Benjamin's bike in the bushes and he ran with us. We ended up running 2 fastest continuous miles for the day with him - 14:21 with the splits of 7:18 and 7:03. Matt joined us shortly after Benjamin started running and ran to the end of his run.

Benjamin got back on his bike and we took him and James home, so that was 6 miles. Then I wanted to measure Jeff tugging power against mine. So we got out the harness and tried running in opposite directions. Jeff was a clear winner in the running motion - I was steadily moving backwards. Then we tried facing each other and play a tug-of-war with no arms, squatting down and pushing the harness with our backs. In that motion Jeff was a little bit stronger, but not as much as in the running motion.

Then we went for another 6 miles, and Benjamin wanted to ride along with us, so we took him as well. We were discussing the results of the test. They were rather interesting. We measured my leg extension to be better than Jeff's in the absolute value earlier (although it was a little bit worse relative to body weight). Yet in the running motion Jeff was clearly stronger, not just in proportion to his body weight, but in the absolute power of the pull. To add to this, in 2003 I increased my hamstring curl max by 50%, and the leg extension by 10%, yet the increase in individual muscle group strengths did not make any difference in an all out 100 sprint. So this led to the contemplation of the need to be able to use the muscles together, that there might be some kind of limit not related to individual muscle strength that you could hit when you have to use several muscle groups. We started talking about the kangaroo, how its preferred way of motion is hopping, and began to wonder exactly how inefficient humans are at moving this way.

So we did a kangaroo hop for 100 meters. The results were interesting. Jeff was a much better kangaroo. He hopped it in 33 seconds, while it took me 49! However, my HR got up to 140, which (over 49 seconds) suggests I was probably putting in an equivalent of maybe 5:30 running effort. We did not have an HRM on Jeff, but subjectively he said he really felt the pain of the effort. Our next experiment was the bound - cover 100 meters in the least number of steps. Jeff bounded 100 meters in 46 steps and it took him 20 seconds. I took fewer steps (44), but it took me 21.5 seconds. We did one more experiment - 100 m sprint on one leg. Jeff did it in 25 seconds, I did it in 28.

This gave us some food for thought. One legged hop was consistent with our all out sprint difference. The bound results were consistent with what we've seen in the past, although we still do not understand why I can bound further than Jeff while he outdoes me by quite a bit in every other strength measurement prorated for body weight that we have tried so far. Perhaps the leg length? But at the same time, I've performed on par in the past with people my height in a bound that would outsprint me by quite a margin (24.5 200 for the peer group vs 27.5 for me). And I am not that much taller than Jeff anyway (5'8 vs 5'10). So we still have this bound mystery to solve.

The difference between the kangaroo and the one legged jump was interesting. Both of us were faster on one leg than on two. Probably because the other leg was making a good contribution with a swing, which was more than what it could have contributed in the power when forced to be on the ground at the same time. One question that remains unanswered is why I did such a bad kangaroo job. One thing I can try is see if I can improve it with training, and when improved if it will have an effect on the all out speed.

Then we ran into a lady on the trail that was doing 8x800 with 1 minute rest at about 3:05-3:15 range. Her names was Cherri Erickson. So we paced her over a few of those. She has 3 children, used to run for BYU, and graduated in 1994.

P.M.

1.05 with Julia in 10:23, 2.1 with Jenny in 18:45, another mile with no running kids. Pushed Jacob and Joseph the entire time.

Five Fingers - 880.20 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 7.17Nap Time: 0.83Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From RivertonPaul on Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 16:44:46

I always enjoy your scientific approach.

From Maria on Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:10:13

How did you do the kangaroo hopping? Did you bring your knees as high as possible? If you did, to do it for 100m is very tough. I remember doing what we called kangaroo jump in Russia as part of the drills, although we were hopping in place. It was hard, and sometimes I would get sore abs the next day. You need to have very strong abdominal muscles to be able to bring both knees up to your chest. Maybe Jeff has stronger abs and was able to move faster? Although bounding requires strong abs too, and you were better at it (provided you both used the same technique).

From jeffmc on Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 12:25:38

the only thing that we specified when we did the kangaroo jump test was to make sure that both feet hit at the same time, and to try and go as fast as possible. I found that I went fastest when I kept my feet as low as possible to the ground while jumping, concurrently focusing not on how far I jumped but on how fast I jumped. Thus, I was taking lots of short quick hops, more like a bunny hop than a kangaroo hop. I also added in a little arm swing which seemed to help as well.

From Mike K on Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 13:21:16

I think you would like Brad Hudson's new book. He wrote it with Matt Fitzgerald.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.180.004.001.1216.30

A.M. Ran with Tyler and Jeff. Tyler ran our warm-up, 2.5 out, then 1.125 back to the start of the tempo. Then he went on back to the house, and we ran the Gerry Lindgren style tempo. The plan was to start out at 5:00 and hold it until I could not. Then run the best pace I was capable of to the end.

Rather unconventional, but it makes sense to me. You will not learn to be comfortable at 5:00 pace by running tempos at 5:20-5:30. At least I won't - I've tried for years. There is a hard barrier around 5:20 where I lack something that cannot be overcome with pure aerobic training. Nor will you learn by running mile repeats at 5:00 pace. Those essentially are mini-mile races. All I've gotten out of those is that I learn to be comfortable running 5:00 pace for exactly one mile. Then in a race as short as a 5 K (flat), I get to the mile in 5:00 feeling good, I might be able to go another quarter at that pace, and then I am done.

So I wanted to try something new. Ask the body - why can't you run 5:00 pace forever, and make it ponder the issue for 5 miles of pain. This would also provide a chance for lots of measurements and observations.

We had one false start - 100 meters into the run I realized that my watch had not started. So we called it a stride, and went back to start for real.

Jeff was feeling sleepy and took me through the first quarter in 78 according to his watch. I did not look. We sped up on the second to 74 according to Jeff, but my watch said 2:31. Next quarter was 76, and then my legs started to give out. I made an honest effort to keep the pace, but was falling behind. Maybe subconscious fear of really leaving it all there in the first mile vs kind of when I had 4 more to go. I could only do 81, which gave us a 5:08 mile on my watch. What is interesting is that HR only got up to 164 at the point of failure.

The subsequent quarters were 86,86,87,85 for a 5:44 mile. HR dropped to 159-160. Better than I expected. I had concerns that I'd be running slower than 6:00 for a while to recover.

Things began to improve in the third mile to my surprise. HR went up to 163, and I started hitting 84 quarters consistently. We hit 2.5 in 13:42 (2:50 for 0.5), and then 16:30 at the 3 mile mark (5:38). I made a mental note that I'd be a second or two faster than my 5 K race time on Saturday at the 5 K mark.

I managed another mile in 5:38. HR started to hit 165-166. With Jeff challenging me to give him five I managed 5:35 in the last mile, HR climbing to 170. Total time was 27:43.4, 5:32.68 average.

We ran a cool down after that to make the total 12.17.

Some analysis - the whole run felt like I was running uphill. I was concerned after being unable to run 5:00 pace as early as 0.75 into the run that things were really going to go downhill, but was pleasantly surprised when they did not. The result provided some evidence in support of the heat sensitivity theory to explain a set of recent sub-par 5 K performances. I was pleased to see HR getting as high as it did in the second half of the run and staying there. It was high for the pace, though, but this is to be expected. Running anaerobically early on produced some oxygen debt (although not much, from VO2 Max data my max RER is only 1.06 vs more normal 1.10-1.15), and so it would be reasonable to expect that the heart would be pumping harder to clean it up the rest of the run. But it is good to actually see that my heart can work into those ranges for a sustained period rather than just theorize that it can because it used to be able to when I was less fit. I wonder if the Gerry Lindgren tempo might be about the only way I can give my heart a workout until the neural drive/strength issues are fixed.

In spite of the Gerry Lindgren maneuver, and the fact that the second half is naturally about 7-10 seconds slower than the first due to the terrain, the splits were 13:42/14:01.

This run also has resolved my concerned that I might have gone into a slump similar to the one after DesNews 2006. Back then I struggled to run 28:26 on the same course starting normally with plans to negative split, and those issues continued for over a month.

P.M. 1.05 with Julia in 9:50, 2.1 with Benjamin in 16:52, Jenny joined for the first 1.6 in 13:10, and one more with no running kids. Pushed Julia and Jacob for all of the run except the initial part with Julia running.

T4 Racer - 370.23 miles

Five Fingers - 884.30 miles.



Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Tom on Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 12:00:52

Interesting blog today Sasha with the Lindgren tempo experiment. I seem to have the same issues but at about a minute slower pace (6 vs. 5). Sometime if I can work up the gumption I need to come up and have you hook me up to the HRM and put me through the run-at-6-min-pace-till-I-die routine. Just sounds like loads of fun.

I was also wondering...have you seen the finalized map yet for the 1/2 marathon this Saturday? Last I heard it was starting near the dam then once you get to Vivian it's the same as the last couple of years. Have you heard anything different or seen a map?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.200.000.000.0015.20

A.M. Jeff messed up setting his alarm clock and did not make it. Tyler for some reason was not there either. So I ran solo for 10.1 miles. Opened with a 2:28 quarter and a 9:03 mile. Then was able to speed up to 8:00. I say "was able" but I really mean "was able while running naturally". My rule is to never force the pace during an aerobic run. Whatever the body chooses without pressure is the right pace. Towards the end of the run I worked up my way to a little slower than 7:00. With a mile to go I had a thought that I should be thankful for my ability to run sub-7:00 pace on a whim. A lot of people cannot race an all out mile like this. So as a token of gratitude, and in behalf of all those who cannot go sub-7:00 in spite of their best efforts, I decided to run the last mile under 7 minutes, and finished with a 6:52, 1:17:55 for 10.1.

P.M. 1.5 pushing Julia and Jacob, 1 with Julia running and Jacob in the stroller in 9:10, 0.5 more pushing both, then 2.1 in 17:40 with Benjamin and Jenny running and Jacob and Julia in the stroller. Need to teach Julia to ride a bike, then I'll be able to take all of my children at once for a run (until William is born at least).

Five Fingers - 899.50 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From JD on Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 16:03:32

Thanks for the sub 7:00-mile. The pace my body chooses without pressure is 12:00-mile, so your gracious effort today is appreciated. Really like your blogs.

From tyler on Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 16:13:56

Sorry about this morning, the alarm didn't wake me till the third snooze. What time are you running tomorrow?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 18:57:07

Tyler - 6:15 tomorrow and Thursday. Provo River Half on Saturday.

From sarah on Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 21:10:08

yes...you are married to somebody who can't do a sub 7 until I've been training for a year or so(after each baby that is)...you are wonderful. :)

From JeffC on Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 11:10:28

Hey, I actually managed a couple of sub 7 miles today but they certainly were not on a "whim", they were part of my tempo run. Nice solo run today.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.400.000.000.2016.60

A.M. Ran with Jeff and James. James turned around after 3 miles. Then Jeff and I did 5x10 seconds all out for me, a nice stride for Jeff, with 5 minute rest. Total time for 12.1 was 1:35:59.

I gave Jeff a history test that he passed in spite of his young age. The question was - which East European communist regime went down violently? For me, of course, this was not just a history question. I anxiously watched, read, and listened as those regimes went down wondering how far away we were from losing the communist grip over the Soviet Union itself. It directly affected my life, so of course I remember, just like most Americans living today will remember September 11th, and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Probably even more.

So anyway, Jeff passed the test. I wonder how many bloggers will without the help of Google and other references. So post if you did or did not know the correct answer before looking it up. To check if you are right, or to find out if you have no clue to begin with, click here.

Also, I took a look at the Deseret Book catalog I found lying on a table. It had an interesting collection of books. How to Raise a Strong-Willed Child. Strangling Your Husband Is Not an Option. How Do I Change My Husband? And the best - Parenting Breakthrough with a picture of a kid cleaning a toilet on the front cover.

P.M. 1.25 with Julia in 12:55, 2 with Benjamin in 16:09 with the last 0.5 in 3:08. Jenny joined us for the first 1.5 in 13:01. Another 1.25 alone.

Five Fingers - 916.1 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 8.25
Comments
From Cheryl on Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 15:46:13

I did not know the correct answer. I found that article very interesting to read, thanks for posting it.

From Metcalf Running on Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 16:33:43

Sweet!!! I was correct! I think I'm showing my age though :)

Lori

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 22:28:36

Please put another in the correct column.

From Chad on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 11:26:12

Another right answer ... I recall following that news closely.

From Phoenix on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 12:11:49

Got it on my first guess.

From benjamin on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 22:57:33

Daddy do you really expect the other 665 bloggers to believe that 9+8 = 9.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 23:01:21

Sorry, Benjamin, that was a typo. Jenny's time was 13:01.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.300.000.250.4516.00

A.M. Talked to Curt last night and realized we were in big trouble. The course of the Provo River Half would be impossible to follow correctly in the last 3 miles, and barring a disaster or an unexpected super-runner appearance, Jeff would be acting as the "lead vehicle". So he needed to know the course. So we had Curt show us the course this morning (the last 3 "loopy" miles), and then we ran that section again to make sure we knew it. On the second try without Curt we managed to miss a turn and it took us a minute before we realized it.

In any case, I decided to plot out the map - check out Provo River Half 2008. Rather approximate, but reasonable. To avoid a complete disaster I had to code up a couple of features in the Course Tool. The USGS service was down, so I found a new elevation data service called Eathtools.Org which is not as accurate (only 90 meter segments), but at least it is up. So now we have a failover - first try USGS for 3 seconds, if nothing comes back or nothing good comes back, then try Earthtools. In the process I made an oops and incorrectly resolved the missing elevations in a number of existing courses, including a part of the Provo River Half that I was making. To fix this I needed a new feature - Re-lookup Elevations. Coded that up. Then figured a Save button that returns you to the course editing would be nice, since this was essentially a freebee after reworking the code. Then the elevation profile from the low resolution of Earthtools was just terrible and the supposed ups and downs extended the distance by a good 0.6 of a mile compared to the crazy grade adjusted distance. So I figured before I make this map public the crazy grade adjustment needed to happen first. So I coded up adjusting the crazy grade permanently as well. With all said and done the course now shows as 13.27 miles, which is very reasonable considering that I was not 100% sure on the start, the trail in some places is very difficult to follow from aerial view, and Google Maps probably do have a measure of geo-coding drift. Expecting lots of comments from Paul on the subject.

After running the "loopy"section, Jeff and I ran more on the trail to make the total of 12 miles. In the process I did the hyena workout - once every 5 minutes you pretend for 10 seconds that a hyena is out to get out and run as fast as you can to get away. Did that 5 times. Coming back down the Provo Canyon we tried some race pace strides. First we ran a quarter in 82, and then a while later in 74.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:20, 2 with Benjamin in 15:25 with Jenny running 1.5 in 11:54, and 1 more alone in 7:40. Pushed Jacob.

Five Fingers - 932.1 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From Adam RW on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 17:52:17

Thank you, thank you, and thank you...

From Tom on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 17:56:36

Ditto what Adam said.

From Paul Petersen on Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 18:08:52

Clever failover.

I was not aware of that other service. Yes, all aerial photography, including Google (or especially Google) has some degree of error in the georegistration/orthorectification. But considering you are getting it for free, streaming incredibly fast over the internet, it ain't bad! I think digitizing a route over aerial photos gives similar accuracy as a Garmin 205/305 on a good day. The only way to get super-great accuracy is to use a wheel or a survey-grade GPS ($$,$$$). It's obvious why the USATF still requires wheel measurement; it's cheap, reliable, and repeatable.

Hope that fills my comment quota. :-)

Race: Provo River Half Marathon (13.1 Miles) 01:12:14, Place overall: 3
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
4.800.0013.100.0017.90

A.M. Quick report, details to follow when I have more time. Provo River Half 1:12:14, 3rd place. Jeff won with 1:08:55, Dave Holt was second with 1:09:56. Barely held off Adam Wende (4th), and Chad (5th). Walter was 6th, so that's at least 1-6 FRB parade.

Struggled with neural fatigue pretty much from the gun, but as it usually goes with this problem, things kept getting worse as the race progressed until they just could not get any worse. I was able to run with Dave for the first 2.5 miles, then ran alone the rest of the way until Adam came up to within 10 seconds of me around 10.8. Then my first thought was I don't care if he passes me, then I told myself to do my best, figured that if I could just bluff 5:30 pace for half a mile, that will play a trick on both the neural fatigue and Adam, and then I'll be safe. The operation was successful.

More details. No trouble felt in the warm up, actually maybe a bit feisty. Noticed that the mind was not quite there on the bus - had a hard time connecting words into sentences. From the gun the pace felt a bit fast, but sustainable. First mile was 4:57, then 10:00 at 2 miles (by the official mile marker). Dave and I tried to hang with Jeff, but backed off after about 0.5 or so. Noticed that I was not breathing very hard, but felt unmotivated to breathe harder. Nevertheless decided to stick with Dave. Made it to about 2.5, then I was supposed to take a quarter, but could not pass Dave to do the job. Then I just could not hold the pace, not even for another quarter if they had told me the race ended right there. So I backed off.

Dave and Jeff gradually kept disappearing into the distance. The uphill on the highway actually did not feel too bad. Hit the official mile 5 in 26:11, then 32:02 at 6 miles. Started experiencing an urgent need for a VPB, but there were no good bushes on the highway. Then shortly before mile 7 I grabbed some leaves off a tree on the run, and shortly after jumped into a conveniently located bush. Because there were so many people on the trail, I could not do my patented technique, so I lost about 10-12 seconds instead of the usual 5. The quarter was 1:35, and the ones that followed were in the 1:22-1:25 range.

Hit the official marker 10 in 54:21. Saw Iain Hunter running in the opposite direction. Was stuck at around 5:35-5:40 pace. Was not breathing very hard, but could not go any faster. We made a turn at 5200 N and I noticed that Adam was about 10 seconds behind with Chad about the same distance behind him. My first thought was that I do not care. The race already went down the toilet. I just want to get to the finish and ensure a deeper blogger sweep, and I do not care about which order we come in. Then I told myself that this was a bad attitude, and I needed to fight it out to the finish no matter how poorly the race was going. Then a thought I occurred to me. Although I was neurally fatigued, if I gave it all for 0.5 mile I could run 5:30 pace. Adam and Chad would not have the cardio and the glycogen storage to run 5:30 pace on the flat at this point. So that would give me another 10 seconds on them at least. Then I could jog at 6:00 pace for a bit, recover, and maybe even kick at 5:30 pace, and that should be enough to hold them off. So I just focused on that 0.5, and it worked.

My GPS showed 13.20 for the distance. That may be right, may be not. Who cares anyway? It is a new downhill course. We have to figure out what its worth empirically in any case. My conservative guess is a minute slower than Bryce Canyon, and three minutes faster than Striders Half with the headwind this year. Probably about the same, no more than 30 seconds faster if at all compared to the 2006 and 2007 versions.

No cool down after the race, had to hurry to make it to a temple wedding of our friend.

For those who do not know what neural fatigue is all about. It is when your body can go faster, except the brain or the nervous system is malfunctioning and in spite of your most noble efforts does not produce or deliver the signals that are strong enough to get the muscles to perform at their potential. The symptoms are that your breathing becomes more comfortable, your heart rate drops, but the legs are in slow motion, they start feeling unbearably heavy when you try to push the pace, and your normal race pace very quickly becomes so impossible that you cannot do it for another quarter mile even if you did not have to go any further. This is one of the days when you can run a 5 K at a slower pace than you normally race a half marathon. Yet you can still finish the race at a slower speed wondering the entire time why you cannot go faster when nothing hurts. This is a very frustrating experience and it is very easy to get depressed and mentally quit. The sad part is that if you just kick back and coast to the finish you run only 5 seconds per mile slower than when you are giving everything you've got, when normally this much difference in effort would give you 20 seconds per mile.

To prevent it you need to sleep well, eat proper amounts of carbs, avoid stress, and not speed on your base runs. Sometimes it happens anyway even if you do everything right. Many people never have to worry about it because their cardio/glycogen storage will hit a limit first before they reach the limits of their neural drive even on a bad day.

On the positive side, the neural fatigue this year was much milder than two years ago when I ran 1:14:00 on the same quality of the course. I believe it was also less severe than during Minuteman 5 K. At least I was running 5:50 up a slight grade at the end of a half marathon instead of at the end of a 5 K, and I could do several sub-5:40 miles down 1% grade after running 7 instead of only one after running one. And I could will myself into running 5:30 pace down a slight grade for half a mile, something I do not think I would have pulled off in the same place at the end of Minuteman. So things are getting better.

As to the cause of the neural fatigue, there are two suspects. A popular opinion suspect is DesNews, but I question it. Last year there was no neural fatigue (I surprised myself with 1:09:40) even though every muscle of my body hurt for three days after DesNews. This year in DesNews it was just the cramped calf. The rest of the muscles had not experienced noticeable damage because I ran too slow. However, it is a possibility that the pain in the calf lasting for 2.5 hours caused some brain damage.

Another theory is itching skin. My skin has been itching pretty bad over the last couple of weeks, and it has interfered with the quality of my sleep. Two years ago when the neural fatigue was worse, the skin itched pretty bad as well and my sleep suffered. It affects not only sleep. It puts me on alert during the day, so towards the end I have been somewhat irritable. Our kids have been doing a lot of push-ups, squats, and household jobs for various rule violations. All well deserved, they have been taught and warned multiple times, but I normally do not notice that much.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:48, then 2 with Benjamin in 16:20 with Jenny running the first 1.5 in 12:33. It started raining and we got soaked.

T4 Racer - 385.13 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.00
Comments
From Burt on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 15:11:34

Great job!

From Kim on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 16:18:28

Congratulations on a successful operation! Also on the 3rd place finish and the FRB parade!

From Kelli on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 16:59:22

Awesome, as always! And, that is great that the first 6 runners were from FRB!! Too cool for this site!

Thanks for going over the course a few times yesterday so the rest of us would not get lost!! I was worried, really! I can not think of anything worse than getting lost at the end of a race...

From Tom on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 17:25:30

Sasha nice job holding off Adam and finding the will to overcome the neural fatigue at least to some degree. I learn a lot from your race reports, but perhaps I learn most from those that don't go so well.

From Gary on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 19:18:56

Great job Sasha and to all the FRB,

From marion on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 19:26:12

Excellent race! FBR made a most impressive showing!

From Adam RW on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 22:29:02

Sasha, Sorry about the bad race but I have to say you helped pull me into a new level. Seeing you and the temptation of finally getting you sure helped push me through some of the harder portions of this race and kept the pressure on the final miles. Thanks for the motivation.

From Desi L. on Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 22:39:42

How do you prevent neural fatigue? Congrats on an outstanding race!

From Lucia on Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 12:46:38

Sasha, you are unbelievable! 3rd place, even when fatigued. Wow!

From josse on Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 13:02:06

Great job Sasha! Neural fatigue is a hard one, I know:)

From Dale on Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 20:30:02

Way to run a good strong race despite the fatigue. Keep at it and you'll keep getting better at pushing it back, I'm betting.

From walter on Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 14:03:26

Sasha, when I started seeing you clearly I got exited but couldnt pull a bluff for 1/2 mile like yourself! Hey your not the one that marked quarter miles in white paint on the course are you? I saw them and it kind of psyched me out! I would rather see them my last two miles so I could gear up. Great race for coming off of DES News so soon. You have such a strong will power! Congrats. See you at TOU!

From Christi on Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 19:32:40

Congrats on your 3rd place finish!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Julia surprised us today. She read most of her talk in Primary without help. We are very excited - she is on the verge of reading.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
18.600.000.000.2018.80

A.M. Jeff is in California, so I ran alone. 12.1 in 1:27:57. Did my standard hyena sprints.

A.M - 2. Ran to the Provo City Center to try out some equipment with Adam. Found the leg press machine somewhat useful for my purposes. My goal is to find something that will produce the maximum degree of muscle recruitment. Ran back. Total of 2.2 miles.

P.M. Costco Relay. 1.08 with Julia in 10:36, 3.42 with Benjamin in 29:08. Jenny joined for the first 1.56 in 13:48. 

Five Fingers - 950.9 miles. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Cheryl on Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:05:16

Sasha--My regular computer broke, so I tried logging in to the blog on two different computers, and both said I have invalid information. I'm almost positive I'm using the correct unsername and password. Does logging in on a different computer affect things? What do I need to do?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 13:06:13

Cheryl:

The computer should not make a difference. Most likely you are mistyping something. One wrong character makes a difference between success and failure. Hit the Forgot Password link and have the correct login and password e-mailed to you. If you are still having problems, I can look it up for you in the database.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.004.000.000.0016.00

A.M. Ran with Michelle, and Josse. Matt joined us after a mile. The original plan was for Michelle to run the standard 5 mile tempo at 6:00 pace, while I towed Josse trying to stay with Michelle until she dropped us, then keep towing until Michelle had a gap of about 100 meters, then drop the harness, catch up to Michelle as fast as possible, and pace her from that point. Josse was not feeling good, and decided to just jog. So I just paced Michelle, which was OK as I could tell I was still feeing the neural fatigue.

We hit the first mile in 5:57, and during that mile I was really glad I was not towing Josse - I could feel the signs of neural fatigue in my stride and in the overall feeling. I was thinking, I am glad she cannot run low 5:50s, and it was not "I am too lazy to run 5:50s this hour of the day", not a sleeping lion annoyed that his sleep was disturbed, it felt like the start of the Provo Half - I really do not want to race today, I like my bed better than running. Michelle's HR was around 173-175 towards the end of the mile.

On the second mile Michelle started losing steam, but she was consistent - 4 quarters in 1:31, 6:04. HR about the same. We hit the turnaround in 15:04. I waited as long as I could to start the Give Me Five (TM), but I figured after a 180 Michelle needed to be woken up. 6:07 for the next mile. Her HR dropped to as low as 171 on a 1:32 quarter.

Over the last two miles Michelle tried to pick up the pace, but she did not have much juice. Nevertheless, she was steady. Her next mile was 6:08, and she closed with a 6:05 to finish in 30:21. Her last 200 was 41 seconds, though, and I had to work to keep up. Her HR was very interesting during the kick. She was able to get it up to 178, but then it dropped to 176, although I did not feel any let up in the pace. Not sure what that means. Might be normal - to accelerate is harder than just to maintain. Which implies that when you are kicking you should explode for 5 seconds with every bit of energy you've got, and then coast to the finish, and you can coast pretty far.

Also, the highest I've seen her HR is 180, yet she has been able to maintain 173 for 5 miles. That is 96%. I wonder if this ability is a sign that the cardio is stronger than the nervous system, which could mean that either the cardio is very strong, or the nervous system is very weak.

Ran some more with Michelle, Josse, and Matt, total of 13 miles for this morning.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:51, 2 with Benjamin in 17:14 with Jenny running 1.5 in 13:10.

T4 Racer - 398.14 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From MichelleL on Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 14:29:38

Thanks so much for pacing me through this workout. Not quite the stellar workout I was hoping for, but a good one.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.752.501.501.2516.00

A.M. Gerry Lindgren tempo. Interesting results.

Again, this tempo is done like this - go out hard at your dream pace until you can't. Then run the rest of it at your best pace in that condition.

Warmed up, did some strides to be ready for the 5:00 pace. First mile: 75,77,79,82 - 5:13. Legs started caving on the second(!) quarter. HR never went above 164. The breathing was the hardest in the first quarter. Hmm... - last week I managed a 5:08. Am I holding back, or am I in worse condition?

Second mile: 85,86,86,87 - 5:44. Same as last week for the total, but 87 at the end is a bad sign. HR drops to around 160.

Third mile: 90,90,92,91 - 6:03. 13:57 at 2.5. HR drops to 153(!) Michelle is going to chick me if I run like this for the second half. Emily is going to chick me for the whole tempo. I am trying every trick I know to go faster with absolutely zero results even though I am barely breathing. It feels like the end of a marathon. Some food for thought.

Fourth mile: 92,91,90,90 - 6:03. HR had sporadic spikes to 155 in the last two quarters. Interesting.

Last mile: 91 (up a slight grade), 88, 86, 83 - 5:48, and 28:51 for the tempo. 14:54 for the last 2.5. Emily did not chick me, got to enjoy small success! And I put a whopping 23 second gap on Michelle's second half yesterday. And I outkicked her in the last 200 by a whopping 1 second (40). For sure I thought earlier that she was going to beat me on that segment today. Something interesting happened in this mile. With 1 K to go all of a sudden I started running faster. No heroic effort. The earlier miles when I could not break 6:00 for the life of me were a lot more heroic. But all of a sudden I started breathing like I would in a tempo, HR went up to 160 and I started running 5:44 pace feeling like I could go further.

Jogged some more to make the total 12 miles.

Plenty of food for thought. Clearly a case of neural fatigue. But also an interesting twist. We are deal with some odd resource here. Neural fatigue is just underscoring the importance of that resource, makes it come out more in plain view. Today it got exhausted in a bit over a minute of running at 5:00 pace to where I could not hold that pace anymore. It continued to get exhausted at a pace as slow as 5:44 to the point of not being able to run sub-6:00. Running slower than 6:00 partially replenished it to the point of being able to run 5:44 again, and that replenishment was very sudden. It is not blood lactate levels - if it was, HR would have stayed high to clean up, and the breathing would not have calmed down. Fluctuating blood sugar is a reasonable possibility, but if it was, I should have felt weak and fuzzy headed during the slump, and I did not. There were absolutely no symptoms other than I could not go sub-6:00 no matter how hard I tried. And it felt just like the end of St. Jude last year, and Salt Lake, and Ogden this year. I know I need to go faster, I feel good, the head works, the legs are not sore, I know every second could cost a few hundred bucks, and for the life of me I cannot go faster.

So what is that mysterious resource? My first thought was something in the brain. How do you find out for sure? My first thought was I need a brain scan machine to measure me every day, and see what is different between good days and bad days. But who is going to give me a brain scan machine along with the necessary expertise? That is wishful thinking. Come on, think of something more simple.

After some thought, I had an idea. In the absence of equipment we use the infamous Sasha Science. Question number of one - once we know it is section X in the brain, what are we going to do to fix it? Well, we are going to try a number of different things and measure how they affect that section X. Can we measure how that section X is doing without a brain scan machine? Sure. Gerry Lindgren tempo with the HRM tells us everything we need to know. Only one problem. Gerry Lindgren tempo is a rather invasive measurement. I can do it only twice a week at most. However, here is an idea. Do a whole bunch of those tempos. Always make a prediction for the split at the mile, and the finish time for the whole tempo after the first quarter based on how I feel. Keep doing that until I start getting it right. Once I perfect the skill I will only need to run one quarter in 75 to know what would have happened in the whole tempo. I can run one 75 second quarter every day! So that gives me the benefits of daily monitoring with a brain scan machine without having to pay a cent for it. The beautiful thing is that if I am completely off the target, and it is not in the brain, or if it is but the modern day science has no way of measuring it, the method still works! Columbus thought to the end of his life that he had found a new way to India, but that did not change the consequences of his discovery - thanks to him we are now here in America. Inspired pursuit even with factual errors beats being exactly true to the fact but treading in your own tracks with no inspiration. I can try different things, measure the results, quickly, and hopefully find something that works.

Of course, there is no free lunch. It might take a long time to develop a sense that is keen enough to know what's up from just one quarter. But at least it is worth a shot.

T4 Racer  - 410.13 miles. 

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:45, 2 with Benjamin in 16:40 with Jenny joining us for 1.5 in 12:53, and one more mile alone.

Five Fingers - 954.9 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 13:21:55

What about just trying to do more V02max work on the track and track intervals to try to get faster?

It could be that we just reach a point where physically or by our genetics we just can't get any faster once you reach a certain peak. I don't know you could put so many theories into this.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 13:43:25

I've tried lots of VO2 Max over the years work with essentially no results. If no human has ever come close to it, I'll accept a genetic limit theory. Sure, perhaps God does not want us to run faster than 60mph for safety reasons, as well as to keep us humble, and He programmed a natural governor into our genes.

But if lots of humans have done tons better, and you are a human, no reason to throw in the towel and make a popular appeal to genetic limits. It is just a fancy and socially excusable way of saying I give up. The problem that prevents you from doing as well is likely fixable, and would be fixed if you tried hard enough.

From wheakory on Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 14:49:55

I believe that conditioning your upper body by doing sit-ups and push-ups has really helped me. Having the upper body toned when your fatigued really does help. Especially later stages in a marathon.

Your right there's no reason to give up. What about trying to improve your turnover rate by doing a lot of hill work-outs... just a thought. I know your knowledge surpasses mine on this subject. But there's got to be something holding you back. What goes through your mind after you hit that first mile around a 5 minute pace. Maybe you need to have more positive reinforcement thoughts. I know if I dread doing a tempo run the outcome is not what I want to achieve.

Have you tried cutting your mileage down a bit and doing more quality workouts vs quantity? I know you get enough sleep, which I'm a bad example for that discussion.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.920.000.000.3017.22

A.M. Ran the first 6 miles with James, the rest (6 more) alone. Total time for 12 was 1:29:21. Had to stop for a VPB, told James to go ahead. Then caught up to him. During the catch-up decided to practice 5:00 pace. Ran a quarter in 76, and then another 100 in 20 with no stopping. It felt unsustainable. Not sure if better or worse than yesterday, but I was not going to try to find out. I'll wait until Saturday.

The idea now is to focus on 5:00 pace. I must be able to hold it on my 5 mile tempo to have any dreams of an OTQ. Sure, I'll only need to run 5:18, and at sea level, but it would need to be on a rolling course for 26 miles, and likely on a less than perfect day. So I figure at the very least I need to be able to transition from 5:00 being a near-sprint to a brisk tempo pace. I am figuring the cardio is there to support it, but something, some component X (neural drive?) is missing. Some day I have more of it than others, but never enough. Perhaps the days when I have less are most meaningful for study - the problem is more apparent, and hopefully this will inspire a solution.

P.M. 2.05 with Benjamin and Jenny to Benjamin's soccer practice in 18:49. Pushed Julia in the stroller. 1 on grass with Julia in 10:38. 2.17 back in 16:54 pushing Jacob. 

Five Fingers - 968.12 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Steve Hooper on Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 01:23:30

Sasha - I was thinking out your "neural drive" issue. Have you tried any tests with caffeinated GU products?

I have run tests in past races and noticed a significant difference with feeling engaged and aggressive.

From MichelleL on Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 11:02:41

I'm in the same boat but about a minute behind. Right now female OTQ is 6:22 pace, but they will likely tighten and not continue A and B for women, at least not an 8 minute spread. Assuming they tighten to just 2:45, that would then be 6:18 pace, and I would definitely need to feel comfortable at 6:00 pace, perhaps for as long as 7 miles, to be able to ensure a flat 2:45 marathon. I do think you need to work on your speed, but the question is what's the best way for a marathoner to improve speed? I would think longer intervals (1000 to 1 mile) would be part of the answer.

From Phoenix on Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 16:15:43

Sasha, do you have a group going long on Saturday? I'd like to go 2 hours at 8:20-8:30 pace, maybe a little quicker the last 1-2 miles (that may be too slow for anyone). Also, I've got a few ideas on neural drive.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 16:18:10

Steve - I am opposed to caffeine for a number of reasons. Aside from the Word of Wisdom implications, or perhaps not aside but to go along with it, caffeine instead of fixing the root cause of a low neural drive instead temporarily overrides the symptoms. And you pay for it later. If you keep using it eventually you will not be able to get your normal neural drive without caffeine. Not to mention the side effects of caffeine use such as irritability and insomnia. About the last thing I need is a drug that makes me more impatient.

Michelle - what I noticed in my experience. Short intervals work on short speed. When I worked out with BYU team in 2001, I noticed an interesting pattern. The staple workout was 3 or 4 times 1600. And almost everybody could do them under 5:00. Yet very few could run a 5 K at that pace. The 5 K they raced went like this - they would go through the first mile under 5:00 just like in the workout. Then all of a sudden there was an abrupt drop to about 5:15-5:20 pace. I see this pattern at every college meet.

On the other hand, I noticed another pattern. If a guy is ahead of me at the mile in any race 5 K or longer, that is not necessarily a problem. However, if he is still ahead at 1.5 with the same or greater margin than he was at the mile, that is a much bigger problem. With rare exceptions, he is pretty much gone. The only exceptions to that in my entire racing history involved a very long race (half marathon or longer), and the guy ran out of fuel.

So my thought is - if you can train your body make it to 1.5 at a steady dream pace when it believes it will have to go past that point without much of a slowdown, you are over a major hurdle. I would say you've got 95% of the dream pace down, you just need the aerobic base and the fuel to make it sustainable for the whole marathon.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.830.000.000.3716.20

A.M. 12.1 alone in 1:29:09. Did a neural strength evaluation/sense development interval. Was planning to run 400 if feeling really bad, 500 otherwise. Got to 500 and was feeling good enough that I wanted to run a bit more. So did 600 in 1:52, that is 5:00 pace. It felt a lot more sustainable than yesterday or the day before. Official guess on what would have happened in the Gerry Lindgren 5 mile tempo - 5:04 for the first mile, and 27:30 for the whole thing.

P.M. 1.1 alone, 0.5 with Benjamin in 3:09, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 11:47, 1 with Julia in 9:54. Julia run was particularly interesting. She was dragging along at about 10:30 pace when we saw a couple running. I challenged her to catch them. She said no. I said how about for a fruit snack. She said no. How about if you get to play GCompris (an educational computer game)? Still no. How about if I read you a book? She said no, but I'll do it for all three. So we struck a deal, and she whizzed by them, then eased off just enough to keep them at bay to the end of her run.

Five Fingers - 984.32 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From TylerS on Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 18:03:16

I once ran a 4:59 mile, it was the steepest down hill that I have ever ran in a race. I don't know how you guys get your legs to move that fast on flat ground. I guess it comes with a lot of practice. One of these mornings I am going to come over with Michelle and run with you guys. Nice run.

From Jon on Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 13:35:24

Too bad running just the first 600 m of a tempo doesn't get us the same benefit as doing the whole 5 miles. But running an all out 5 mile run every day wouldn't be good. I don't call Gerry Lindgren workouts tempos, though- by my definition, a tempo is a moderate pace that you can sustain for a set distance, rather than diminishing pace.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.005.004.001.0024.00

A.M. Interesting workout today. Total of 21 miles with two tempos. One after a short warmup, the other towards the end. The first being the Gerry Lindgren kind, the second end of the marathon kind.

Warmup - 2.62 miles in 20:50.

Gerry Lindgren tempo: First quarter in 76. Official prediction - 5:10 for the mile, 27:50 for 5 miles. Subsequent quarters: 76, 79, 82 - 5:13 at the mile, 3 seconds off the prediction on the slow side. HR peaked at 163 around 0.6 then dropped to 160 by the end of the mile. The first half mile felt more sustainable, but then I could not sustain it.

Second mile: 83, 84, 86, 86 - 5:39. HR at 159-160.

Third mile: 86, 86 (13:44 at the turnaround), 87, 86 - 5:45. HR drops to 157. Not for the lack of trying, though.

Mile 4: 87, 84, 87, 87 - 5:45. I decided to try something new. Attempt a surge to see to what extent this overrides neural fatigue. Could do it for a quarter, but could not sustain it. On the positive side, I was back to pre-surge pace post-surge. So perhaps this is a good strategy - I just bought myself a couple of seconds for free. HR climbed to 160 during the surge, then went back to 158 afterwards.

Mile 5: 86, 85, 84, 81 - 5:36. Was able to get HR above 160, and to as high as 166 on the last quarter. Total time was 27:58, last 2.5 in 14:14. Much better than on Wednesday.

Jogged 6.5 miles in 51:41. Met Larry Lawrence and Marie Gluhn (Hodson), ran with them for most of it. Larry back in his youth was fast - 3:58 mile. Then did another 5 mile tempo. I did not plan to make it 5, it kind of happened on accident. I only wanted to go 3, but then realized I started it too early, so I figured I'd go more. Then it also took me forever to get up to speed on those twists and turns, and the bridges, so I needed to go the whole 5 to hit a sub-6:00 average. Ran 29:58, last mile in 5:51. It got warmer, but not too bad. Cooled down 1.38 miles - total of 21 for the run.

Observations - not a whole lot of difference between the last 3 miles of the Gerry Lindgren portion, and the end of the run portion except for some fuzzy head. So in other words, it appears so far that I can simulate the end of the marathon minus the fuzzy head by running hard in the first mile and not stopping, just tempoing through. With proper focus I can run through the fuzzy head as fast as 5:30-5:40 pace on a good day. Fuzzy head in and of itself does not cause the slow down, there is something else that is involved, and I can get that something else to show its ugly head in the Gerry Lindgren tempo. So I will call that a small victory - I know how to make the dragon stick his head out. Now I just need a sword to chop it off.

P.M. Went to Michelle's house to watch the womens Olympics marathon. Turned out we were the only ones there. Ran there with the kids. 1 mile with Julia in 10:34, then 1.5 with Jenny in 12:40, and another 0.5 with Benjamin to make the total time for 2 miles 16:39. Kids did very well at a higher elevation and with the hills (6000 feet).

T4 Racer - 431.13 miles.
 

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 11.00
Comments
From Kevin Jessop on Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 16:56:52

Sasha - Do you know how to delete my entry of December 31, 2008. Earlier in the year I was adding an entry to what I thought was in 2007 but turned out to be 2008. I deleted all of the info, but the entry remains. Anybody who goes to read my blog just goes directly to that one empty entry because that is the "latest" blog post.

Any help is much appreciated.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.600.000.000.0016.60

A.M. Ran with James, Daniel, and Derek Taylor. Daniel went 3 miles, James 6, Derek around 8. Afterwards ran 1 with Julia in 9:42, and 2 with Benjamin in 16:22. Jenny joined for 1.5 in 12:48. Pushed Jacob during Benjamin's and Jenny's run.

P.M. Pushed Jacob and Joseph for 5 miles. 40:57.  Five Fingers are celebrating their first 1 K miles. Still in good condition - just one small hole under the right big toe. I wonder if I should just wear them down to the holes, gradually get used to the surface, and then just run barefoot period.

Five Fingers - 1000.97 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Greg Harris on Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 16:33:44

I just recently joined the blog, although I have been reading from it for a while now. I was wondering if you could give me some advice as it relates to my 8-17-08 entry. You seem to be the most experienced racer of the blog and I would really appreciate and respect any advice.

Thanks

From adamr on Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 15:25:07

what would you do in the winter? go back to shoes?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 16:41:50

Probably.

From adamr on Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 23:24:19

I think that will work well for you.

My thought is that it will be like a kenyan kid, who, after running hundreds of miles barefoot finally gets his first pair of beat up shoes and learns he can fly. Not because of the shoes but because he can run correctly in them.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.300.004.001.0017.30

A.M. Ran with Derek. Did the Gerry Lindgren 5 mile tempo. Derek just started after reduced mileage, so he is being caution. So he just did the first and the last mile with me. We also found Matt and he joined us for a portion.

Mile 1: 75, 77, 75, 82 - 5:09. Forgot to make the prediction after the first quarter. Derek pulled away after the first 0.6 and finished it in 4:58. Matt made it to 0.5, I think. HR peaked at 161(!) and I lost steam without being able to push it any higher on this mile. I wonder if I would get better results if I did 78,78, then hold 75/76 until failure, if I'd be able to do more of those this way. Should try this next time, which will be in a week.

Mile 2: 87, 86, 86, 86 - 5:45. Legs feel heavy, cannot go any faster, but HR drops to 156(!). This is a joke. Shouldn't it go up to 165 at least to clean up the lactic acid? Am I weird, or maybe this is normal? We should try this on Jeff when he gets back. If anybody wants to try the experiment as well, please go ahead. Protocol - go to the track or well-measured flat road segment, warm up, then run your dream pace that is much faster than what you have been able to sustain even in a 5 K recently until failure, then run the best pace to the finish of 5 miles. Record quarter splits along with HR patterns. If you live near Provo, I'll be happy to lend you my HRM and run alongside (if I can).

Mile 3: 86, 86, 88, 86 - 5:46. 13:46 at the turnaround. HR at 157.

Mile 4: 88, 86, 86, 86 - 5:46. HR at 158.

Mile 5: Derek joined me and stayed with me. 86, 86, 84, 82 - 5:38. 28:04.1 for the run. Last 2.5 in 14:18. Managed to get HR to 161 in the kick.

Almost exact carbon copy of Saturday run with minor variations. With Derek's help I pushed the 3rd quarter of the first mile, which gave me a faster first mile. But then the fatigue was greater and I ended up running 6 seconds slower for the whole run. HR, however, was lower. Part of it was the difference in the temperature. It was warmer on Saturday. But not that much warmer. And I should be able to sustain my HR above 161 in any weather.

Too early to make any serious conclusions, but the emerging pattern appears very interesting. Pushing the pace harder in the first mile so far has produced a lower(!) HR in the remaining 4 miles, not just a slower pace.

Ran a cool down with Derek, then 2 with Benjamin in 15:29, and 1 with Julia in 9:29. Julia set a 0.5 PR over the second half - 4:11. Total of 15.8 for the run.

P.M. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:18. 

 
T4 Racer - 446.93 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From camilla on Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 01:51:44

Sasha! Thanks so much for the advice on how to start out training for the half marathon. I have been doing well and reading your blog makes me think that someday I will be a fast runner too. Let me know what I should do next to keep up on the half if you could? You are so great! Thanks again and good job on your times!

From Robert on Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 10:37:11

Hello. Have you been doing any kind of resting heart rate tests or tracking when you awaken in the morning? Sounds like you might have what cyclist and ironman triathletes call being "heart tired". Not a lot of studies have been done on this, but some think it might have something to do with the body protecting itself from damage. An injury or governor of sorts, but in the engine room. It's considered a form of overtraining, but goes under the radar since most think a higher heart rate is linked to overtraining. True, but it's the resting heart rate that needs to be scruntinized. Tracking your resting heart rate over periods of time including the off season can provide some clues. Although doing that now might not help because you might already be in a OT state. However, there are all kinds of clinic tests that can be conducted for a nice fee of course. Just my 2 cents worth.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 11:59:10

Camilla:

I'll take a look at your blog and will leave some specific suggestions there.

Robert:

My resting HR has been a steady 48 ever since I turned 16. I checked it a couple of days ago, and it was at 48.

From Robert on Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 16:33:34

Are you checking your resting rate first thing in the morning before getting out of bed? What happens to your resting rate at 30 sec, 60 sec, and 90 sec after standing out of bed? You should see a mostly consistent heart rate (10 beat tolerance). Similar to an orthostatic heart rate test. Google it if you want, but it's just one piece of information. There are a lot of qualitative factors to consider as well. For example, my wife and kids are a good qualitative test for me. If I'm moody and irritable then they let me know and then I know something is out of whack. Later.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 16:49:28

I am not that technical about checking the heart rate in the morning. I figure if it can stay at 48 for 30 seconds in a steady rhythm it is good enough to decide it is normal. Also, I've had lots of good runs when it measured a little high (55-57), and plenty of bad runs when it was its usual 48. So I do not put too much weight on it.

What I've noticed is that my running HR is mostly affected by the air temperature, hydration level, and how fast I am running. In other words, on a bad day I will hit the usual HR for the pace I am going, I just would not be able to go any faster. The only exception to that is if I have a fever, in which case it is consistently higher at all paces.

From Robert on Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 18:04:32

Well, if you are ambitous enough you can always run bi-weekly time trials. If you are 10 bpm below your typical max time trial heart rate (everything else held constant) then you have to consider OT depending on other indicators.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.500.000.000.0016.50

A.M. Ran with Derek and Matt, then some alone, and 2 with Benjamin in 16:18. Total of 11.5 miles. Julia ran 1 mile with Sarah.

P.M. 5 miles in 39:43, including the first 1.5 with Jenny in 13:25.

Five Fingers - 1017.47 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.600.000.000.0016.60

A.M. Ran the first 2 miles with Daniel, then he biked. Found Matt on the trail, he joined me for a bit. Ran the rest alone - 12.1 miles in 1:29:54. Then 2 more with Benjamin in 15:27, including a lunch-with-Daddy qualifier 0.5 in 3:04, a bit of a jog to rest, and then picking it up to finish the mile in 6:54.

Last night completely of her own initiative Sarah committed to working on her Russian more seriously. She speaks quite well, has good accent, can say what she needs to, but she does have her struggles. She cannot yet speak with color reordering her words just the right way, remembering to insert zhe and other forms of emphasis in the right places to make it sound natural, picking a more naturally sounding word vs a standard dictionary-recommended translation of what she would have said in English, without the fear of odd word forms that are particularly foreign to an English speaker, without the fear of using long words with several tongue-twister consonants in a row, etc. For the last 11 years she has fought the idea of learning to speak Russian like a native, but now the day has come. We are going to work on it.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:36, then 1.5 with Jenny in 11:55. 

Five Fingers - 1033.77 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Cheryl on Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 22:46:03

That learning Russian sounds really cool. Wish I could learn it, I took one semester in college and enjoyed it but never pursued it after that. Good luck, Sarah.

From Jon on Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 11:30:45

Sasha- do you know what time you will be leaving for Logan today? Marcie J is bringing me some shorts but I am not sure how to get them from Provo to Logan. If she arrives before you leave, she could give them to you.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 12:27:55

I'll be leaving around 5 pm. Marcie can drop them off at our house - 339 N 1120 W in Provo. Phone number 801-788-4608.

From Jon on Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 12:57:17

Marcie says "I will try to get them there!!"

You can just leave them with Paul rather than bringing them to the race or anything, too.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.500.000.500.0014.00

A.M. Ran with Derek, dropped him off, then ran alone, then ran into Justin White and his friend Chris, ran with them a bit, then more alone. Decided to try race pace for 0.5. Hit 2:44 going down about 0.5% grade. Felt good. Carefully listened for the signals of neural fatigue, but heard none. At least over 0.5.

Finished 11 miles, then ran with the kids. First 1 with Julia in 10:30. Then we loaded Julia and Joseph in the double stroller for me to push, and put Jacob in the single stroller for Benjamin to push. After the first 60 meters Benjamin said that Jacob was a lot heavier than he had thought. That sounded suspicious. I checked out the stroller, and sure enough, the break was on. We fixed that, and kept going. Benjamin did better than I thought he would. 12:54 for 1.5. That is 8:36 pace average. The combined weight of Jacob and the stroller was probably closely approaching Benjamin's own weight. Jenny, of course, had to take advantage of the chance to show off and pulled ahead in the last third of a mile finishing in 12:38. I stayed with Benjamin.

Good to know that in case of emergency we could cover a 5 K at 9:00 pace without the aide of a motor with all of the five kids. When William is born, we will need one more seat in the stroller, but hopefully by then Julia will learn to ride a bike.

I have been taking in a lot of Powerade lately, and it has been going in very well, never making me feel like I've had too much. Makes me wonder if the latest neural fatigue struggles were from a very subtle carbodepletion. Or another way to look at that - something happened that increased the brain demands for glucose, and not receiving enough the brain responded by limiting running performance. I've had this happen before. In any case, the practical implication is that the body needs to be fed a lot of carbs.

Five Fingers - 1047.33 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Paul Petersen on Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 14:44:04

We can do some testing on Saturday. I haven't eaten any starch for several weeks. I still get carbs from fruit, agave, honey, and a few other sources, but my current diet would definitely qualify as "low carb". Perhaps I will get to finally experience neural fatigue as a result.

From marion on Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 14:58:47

I know that I am very new to running, but it is amazing to me how the body teaches a runner how to fuel it and really lets you know when it's missing an essential element. I am even more amazed that after years of neglect, the body is happy to give me another chance to take better care of it :D

Sasha- thanks for this blog! It is really an amazing place!!!

Race: Top of Utah Half Marathon (13.11 Miles) 01:11:13, Place overall: 4
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.980.0013.110.0024.09

A.M. Top of Utah Half. 1:11:13. 4th place. Got beat by Teren (1:06:38), Seth (1:10:37), and Josh Stefen (1:10:46). Held off Jon (1:11:40), and Paul (1:12:14). Better quality race than two weeks ago in Provo Half. Details to follow...

Now details....

Stayed at Paul's house. Got to see little Seth. Got to race the big Seth as well. How do you get your shirt to finish 46 seconds ahead of you? Let Seth borrow it, of course :-)

Warmed up with Paul. We saw two moose. Paul wondered if the plural of moose was meese. I thought it should be mooses. Turns out both of us were wrong. I did Googled it and found that the correct form is moose. Go figure. I've run TOU every year they've had it (9 times) without ever seeing a moose, and now two at once!

Paul invented a new concept. I think he should patent it. For every bathroom visit prior to the start of a race you get a star. For every stop during the race you lose a star. So at the start this was going to be a two-star race for me.

With the latest neural fatigue problems I did not have firm expectations for the race. I told Paul the night before it could be as fast as 1:09 or as slow as 1:14. I figured the best way to work around the neural fatigue would be to run as unmotivated as possible. I noticed that neural fatigue often kicks in from an overexertion of some kind - a hill, a surge, or a pace that is a tad too brisk held for 10 minutes. It is easy to mistake it for the consequences of getting into oxygen debt, but overtime I learned to distinguish the two. If it is just oxygen debt, you will breathe harder for a minute or two afterwards, back off the pace a bit, recover, and then you are good to go again. Maybe 3 seconds per mile slower than what you would have otherwise. Neural fatigue is a different beast. You step into the red zone, and you are out for the rest of the race. The breathing slows down. The heart rate drops. The pace drops to as much as 20 seconds per mile slower and stays that way to the end. You keep telling yourself - I am feeling good, I am going to pick it up, you think you are picking it up, but the splits show otherwise. You try to kick in the last 50 meters, and you cannot. It is like a bad dream when you try to run away from a robber but your body is paralyzed for no understandable reason.

Mile 1 - 5:27. Running with Josh Stefen. Teren and Seth did 5:19 - they are both jogging. Feeling sluggish.

Mile 2 - 5:17. The downhill got steeper, I picked it up, dropped Josh, started closing on Teren and Seth. Got excited, and pushed harder hoping to catch up to them. Then there is this feeling - you get too excited, the neural fatigue will get you. Do not red line. So I eased off. Teren/Seth did 5:19.

Mile 3 - 5:25. Josh caught up to me, and gapped me a bit. I thought for a while he was gone. Then there was a short steep downhill and I caught up to him. Told myself, ran with him to 4, you can at least do that.

Mile 4 - 5:21. Drafting behind Josh changed from miserable to sustainable, I think I can make it to 5.

Mile 5 - 5:14. More downhill, some tailwind, starting to feel good. 26:44 at 5 miles.

Mile 6 - 5:12. Even better. We are now ahead of the 5:20 guy. At the start it looked like averaging 5:30s would be a challenge. Thinking about gapping Josh.

Mile 7 - 5:15. Happy to gap the 5:20 guy some more, will need that for sure later on. Tried to gap Josh as well, but was not successful. Now drafting behind him.

Mile 8 - 5:25. Not enjoying it as much on flatter ground, but the pace feels sustainable.

Mile 9 - 5:21. Cannot complain about that. Don't think the grade has changed, still about 0.5% down, and we are still ahead of the 5:20 guy. Did not expect that so late in the race.

Mile 10 - 5:29. Some headwind, but Josh has wide shoulders. 53:26 at 10 miles.

Mile 11 - 5:46. Uphill started. At first it felt bearable, but the further we go, the harder it gets. I am feeling like I am carrying a bookcase that I am about to drop.

Mile 12 - 5:57. Uphill continues. I cannot hold the bookcase any more, it goes down. I think the bookcase's name was Josh. He is gone, has about 10 seconds on me. I am thinking with the downhill on the last mile I can close the gap.

Mile 13 - 5:39. Legs are just not moving. Here comes the neural fatigue with all of its ugly symptoms. I see Josh putting a gap on me. I see Seth within reachable distances. I am not breathing very hard. The legs do not hurt. Josh is worth some cash and circuit points. Seth is worth some cash and circuit points. I want to catch them and I want it bad. But there is nothing I can do no matter how hard I try.

Last 0.1 - 31 seconds. A desperate attempt at a kick. My watch said 1:11:11. Official time was 1:11:13.

Paced Breanna during the cool down/extra miles. Then went to find Bonnie, but missed her - ran right past her and did not spot her in the crowd. Ended up with 21 miles for the workout.

Interesting how the hill knocked me out. This has happened before. In 2003 St. George I lost contact with the OTQ pack at 9 miles going up a long gradual climb, and never recovered. That same year I was running well in the first 6 miles of the Springfield marathon until we hit a hill about half a mile long. Afterwards I was not myself for the rest of the race. However, I've had good days when a long hill did not bother me in spite of taking it hard. Last year I did fine in the Provo River half, Salt Lake (Emmigration Canyon) half, and Park City Half. This year I did OK on the Avon pass in Wasatch Back.

My theory. The hill increases the amount of neural output. On a bad day this could put me in the red zone of neural fatigue. Something pops in the brain, and it stops working for the rest of the race.

T4 Racer - 467.93 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:50, then 2 with Benjamin, Jenny and Jared in 16:39. Jared had a side ache and fell behind.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Lucia on Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 21:16:21

Congratulations Sasha, you are amazing!

From Kelli on Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 23:59:40

Glad it was a better race for you, hopefully your neural fatigue is wearing off.

I enjoyed meeting your wife, glad she came to support us all since she couldn't be with you! She is great, but you already know that!

From Jon on Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 00:15:25

Nice race today. Looks like you broke out of your funk- averaged faster at this half marathon than your recent 5k, I think.

From Snoqualmie on Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:14:16

Congratulations on the quality racing! And for summer racing that's really awesome. You inspire me.

From Christi on Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 20:57:34

Sounds like you enjoyed the race more than Provo Half. Congrats on another amazing performance!

From Jon on Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 22:42:48

By the way, everyones watch was exactly 2 seconds faster than official time, so official time is wrong.

From Lybi on Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 23:54:04

What an exciting race, Sasha! Sounds like you are still discovering ways to optimize your racing--even with all your experience. That's just amazing. Great job!

From camilla on Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 02:01:16

Sasha! You are so awesome! You did such a great job! You run so darn fast!

Would you like me to keep running 4 miles each day? Let me know, I just do what you tell me to do! You are the bomb.com!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.340.000.000.0016.34

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Derek. Dropped Derek off, dropped Jeff off. Ran 1 mile in 9:31 with Julia pushing Jacob and Joseph with Benjamin and Jenny riding along on their bikes. Then pushed Jacob and Joseph for another 2 miles. Had an accident. Head-on collision with a bike coming from under a bridge. The stroller did very well, no damage at all. My Walmart watch did not do so well - the strap broke. No other damage otherwise. We count our blessings.

P.M. For our family home evening we decided to do Jenny's birthday present geocaching hunt. Sarah hid it some distance away from the house, got the GPS coordinates, and I ran to the location with Benjamin and Jenny. The distance turned out to be 1.72, which we ran in 15:00, 8:43 average.

We found the present, Sarah picked up Jenny, and I ran back with Benjamin. During the run Sarah called us and told us VanGoGo would not start. I told her to get a jump start from Luz, as they were in right next to her house. We got home in 13:27, 7:49 pace average.  I called Sarah, and she told me the jump start did not help.

So Benjamin and I drove back to rescue her. It was dark, and I could not quite remember where Luz's house was exactly, and had a hard time finding it. So I turned on the GPS and used the stored waypoint location to navigate to it. This was going to be a humorous night, it seemed, and the further developments confirmed the suspicion. I got into VanGoGo to see for myself what was wrong, and it turned out that it was in the neutral gear. Once I moved it in Park it started just fine. To add more humor to the night, Sarah forgot her purse at Luz's house. So we had a good laugh.

Five Fingers - 1063.67 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From cgbooth23 on Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 00:56:49

girls will be girls, that sounds alot like something my wife would do! hahaha good thing we love em so much!!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.500.000.000.0016.50

A.M. Ran with Derek and Jeff. Then some more by myself, and 2 with Benjamin in 17:26. Total of 14 miles.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia around the soccer field during Benjamin's soccer game. Benjamin's team played much better than last time and won 5-1 against a team that did not appear as weak as the last one. Last time they lost 1-2. The team coaches are very good. In the first game they were kid-disorganized, and combined with the lack of exceptional soccer talent from any of the players this did not produce very impressive results. This time after some work in the practices each player knew his job and did it. I was amazed at the difference, and it showed in the final score.

Ran 1.5 with Jenny later in 13:01. 

Five Fingers - 1077.67 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:05:36

Usually the first soccer game the player's are a little bit in a disarray, until they learn and bond with their team. They have to learn the concept of passing and spreading out over the field, rather than all of them playing the middle. Once they learn to pass the will become a smarter and better player.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.880.003.120.0016.00

A.M. Started with Jeff and Tyler. Derek was not there for some reason. Tyler had to go to work, so he did not go very far before he turned around. Ran 6 very easy with Jeff. We finished almost 3 minutes behind the 8:00 mile guy. Then ran 6 more alone.

Decided to do a shakeout tempo. Due to my course layout, 3.125 turned out to be a convenient distance. Ran it on the trail as usual. 1.5 out, 1.65 back. Decided to go by feel setting goals as I went along.

Had a hard time getting into a rhythm. First 200 in 44. Then eventually started hitting 83 quarters. 5:35 at the mile. HR at 152. Lost steam, next quarter in 84, and then 85 with a 180. Accelerated after 180, but it was only good enough for another 85. However, got my payback in the next quarter - 82. HR got up to 158. After that I was hitting 82-83 quarters like a clock, but for the life of me could not go any faster. Second mile was 5:36, then 5:30, and 41 for the last 200. I tried to pick it up and bring HR to over 160, but for the life of me could not do it. 16:41 at 3 miles, 17:22 for 3.125, which means I hit the 5 K in 17:16. That is a PR for Five Fingers.

Jogged some more, finished 12 miles in 1:32:07. Amazing how fast the 8:00 mile guy comes to you when you are going 5:30 :-)

Ran another mile with Julia in 9:45.

P.M-1. We bought a van from Canyon Motors in Provo (610 W Center). They specialize in used natural gas vehicles - just perfect for us. We never buy cars on credit, which at least for now means we never buy anything anywhere close to a new car. And we wanted to help alleviate the US demand for foreign oil while saving a bit on gas as well. It is 1996 Dodge Ram B2500 CNG. 72 K miles. Seats 15 passengers. $8402.96 including the sales tax, registration, and other fees. $3K alternative fuel vehicle tax credit. 14-18 mpg at $0.86 a gallon. Right now it is more than twice as cheap to drive as Zhu (our 93 Ford Escort Wagon). And the best thing - I stuck my nose right next to the exhaust pipe while the engine was running, and could smell nothing.

The official name of the new van is FRV - The Fast Running Van.

One drawback is that now we would have to plan our fuel stops thoroughly while traveling. But there are quite a few natural gas stations all over the state. Flying J in Springville, there one in Orem around exit 272, a couple in Salt Lake, one in Ogden, and one even in Logan. Going south, Fillmore, and St. George. We will still keep VanGoGo - 4-wheel drive, spare vehicle in case FRV breaks down, and for trips in remote areas where natural gas may be unavailable. Also for short trips when we do not feel like parking FRV in a tight space, and for Van 2 in relays.

Being a used car, FRV still needed some pre-sale fixing, and Sarah did not want to wait for me to finish the paperwork, so I did the paperwork and ran home - 0.7 miles. We should be getting the van today.

P.M-2 : 0.3 running errands, 0.5 with Benjamin in 4:21, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 12:38, total time for 2 miles was 16:59. Had fun running away from dogs. There were 3 dog incidents in the last half mile that resulted in accelerations. I was impressed with Jenny's top end speed. Kenyan kids run away from hyenas, ours have to settle for dogs.

Five Fingers - 1091.67 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From ryan on Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 01:35:16

Sasha, there is a natural gas filling station in Cedar City also. it is at the gas station on main street next to the CAL Ranch store.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 12:50:48

Thanks - good to know.

From paul on Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 13:22:46

Excellent buy on the van.

From Mike Warren on Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 23:29:23

The station in Cedar, is the K.B. Express. My uncle owns that station. In St. George, the shell station on the Blvd has it. I have several friends that run on Natural and Propane. I have a really good friend, that works for Questar. The natural is very inexpensive as of now. The only problem is, Questar is rumored to be considering, the sale of all there fueling stations, to an independent contractor. This would substantially increase the price. Sasha, if you go on a web site called cngmotors.com It lists prices for natural gas, all over the country. Most locations are in the mid $2.00 range. Still, cheaper than gasoline, but you will loose some mileage and alot of range. Good luck with the new purchase.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.500.500.500.0016.50

A.M. Big group today. Started with Jeff, Derek, Jeff's dad Don, Vern, and Michelle. Vern and Don ran 1 mile out, Derek kept on going to BYU at 6 while we turned around. Jeff turned around 8 miles into the run because he only needed 10. Michelle finished all 12 with me - she actually had run some before we even started - she was doing a 22 mile run. Had a VPB stop, then caught the pack afterwards. The quarters were 84 and 80, and I felt more energized than yesterday. At 6 Michelle started her end of long run death march tempo. Her splits were 6:42, 6:33, 6:22, 6:25, 6:27, 6:21. Her last 2 quarters were 94 and 87. I gave her a challenge to push my HR past 140. She reached it with about 1 mile to go for the first time, and then finally in the kick she pushed it as high as 149.

Afterwards ran 2 miles with Benjamin in 15:39 including the lunch out qualifications 0.5 in 3:03, splits of 93 and 90.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:40, and 1.5 with Jenny in 13:13. Played soccer with some Latinos during Benjamin's soccer practice. Also shot basketball hoops.

Five Fingers - 1108.17 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From josse on Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 14:27:09

Just wandering about this lunch out thing. Does that mean Benjamin want to go out to a restruant to eat and if so where and why?

From MichelleL on Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 14:27:26

Thanks so much for the workout today! You're a great support.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 17:40:19

Josse - lunch out = sandwich at Great Harvest + smoothie at Jamba Juice.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.100.000.000.0016.10

A.M. 12.1 in 1:33:00. Started with Jeff, Daniel, Tyler and Don. The group kept getting smaller. Then Derek who had a late start caught up to us. Ran with Jeff and Derek to 10.1, then 2 more mostly alone, but I did meet a runner, I think his name was Ken, ran with him and bit, and invited him to join the blog.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:09, with Jenny joining for the last 1.5 in 11:41. Julia ran with Sarah and Luz earlier in the morning. Then 2 more to the tennis court and back. Played tennis with Benjamin.

Five Fingers - 1224.27 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 17:27:43

I need to put on the blog where they mentioned the fastrunningblog.com site in my local town paper when I was interviewed for the race. I will try to get more advertisement after the race tomorrow too. Hopefully, I can advise other runners to join the site too.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.005.004.250.7523.00

A.M. Ran with Derek. We did a 2.62 warmup. Then I did a modified Lindgren tempo. This time I warmed up for 0.5 miles at a slower pace before trying to run 5:00. Derek joined me for the last 2 miles.

Splits: 84, 83, 79 (jumped over a tree), 78 - 5:24 mile, 81, 85, 88, 87 (5:43), 86, 87 (14:01 at the turnaround), 89, 86 (5:47), 86, 84, 85, 86 (5:42), 82, 83, 84 (tree jump), 81 (5:30) - 28:06.2.

HR: climbed to 162 during the attempt at a 5:00 mile, then dropped miserably. Sat around 155 between 1.5 and 3.7. Then with Derek's help got up to 158. In the last mile got up to 160, and hit 166 in the last quarter.

Other observations: When running 5:44-5:48 pace HR was stuck at 155 but the breathing felt very labored. Once Derek joined me and I started running behind him, HR was higher, I was running faster, but the breathing felt a lot less labored. Possible explanation - breathing rate correlates with turnover. Earlier, the ground push-off power (which determines stride length) was reduced for some odd reason, so I had to turn over quicker to run a slower pace. Running behind Derek rebooted the push-off power computer, now I did not have to turn over as quickly.

Jogged with Derek to 10.25, dropped him off, drank a large cup of Powerade, then jogged to 13.62 and ran another 5 mile tempo on the exact same course except this time I did not have to jump over the tree twice.

Felt sluggish and unmotivated during that part, like I was ready to be done with the workout already. Very similar to mile 20 of the marathon. Was not sure what to expect of the tempo.

Splits in the second tempo: 5:48, 5:46, 14:27 at the turnaround, 5:49, 5:49, 5:42 - total time 28:54.7.

HR: Could not bring it over 150 in the first 2 miles. Then it hovered at 152-153 for the next two and a half. Then all of a sudden it shot up to 157 with no change in pace but there was a slight increase in the perception of effort. Was able to push it to 164 in the last quarter which I ran in 82.

Subjective observations: felt sluggish at the start. Had to focus on high turnover to keep the pace. Was able to keep the pace but it required a lot of concentration. When HR increased at 3.5 miles did not feel a significant increase in effort. At 3.25 felt that my ability to concentrate has decreased, and it coincided with a slight let-up on the pace. However, focusing on high turnover allowed me to regain the momentum. Breathing felt controlled, it was rhythmic but not exhaustingly bothersome like in the first tempo after the surge.

Analysis: the increased HR at 3.5 was probably the result of dehydration and rising temperatures - I was over 17 miles into the run, and it was already around 9:00 am. I was actually surprised earlier when I saw that I could maintain sub-5:50 pace with HR below 150 for so long that late into the run.

Ran a cool down of 1.38 miles which gave me 20 miles for the whole run.

I think I've got my marathon second half slow down figured out. Fuel shortage is nothing more that a conspiring catalyst. It is primarily caused by a weak nervous system. I've heard a cop tell me on several occasions that he got tired watching me run. This form of fatigue is somewhat similar to what that cop experiences. When the fuel is low the neural drive goes down. When the nervous system is naturally it may still be enough to maintain the pace. When it is weaker, this causes a problem.

This explains why it is so common for me to let a competitor go between 13 and 16, and even as late as 18 feeling like I could not run even one more mile at that pace, have him gap me enough to be out of sight, but then pass him after 20 miles even though I have slowed down myself. I have plenty of fuel, he has plenty of neural drive. He is running lower than me on fuel, but he can keep the pace because his neural drive is strong. After 13 I have two issues - the neural drive goes down just from the stress on the nervous system itself, plus the fuel runs a bit low which acts as a drive reducing catalyst. No big deal yet for the competitor because his nervous system is strong, he feels good, and knows nothing of his impending doom. I used to be like that when I was running 2:40s. Now, I sense the trouble to the point that I am forced to slow down, I do not have a choice. Then the competitor with his strong nervous system but a less deep gas tank just slams into a wall and cannot break 7:00 while I am still plodding along at 6:00-6:20 pace. This works only for competitors that have not yet built up their gas tank. The moment their gas tank starts working the scenario changes. At 13 all of a sudden I cannot keep their pace. I slow down, they do not. They never run out of fuel and finish ahead.

Now running the second half of TOU with a better than before realization of why I am running slow (and likely why I am getting beat as well) would be quite frustrating. Is there anything I can do about it? That remains to be seen.

T4 Racer - 487.93 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:55, 2 with Benjamin in 16:26, Jenny ran the first 1.5 with us in 12:52.

Five Fingers - 1227.27 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 02:12:09

Try sucking on sports beans or something in the second half. Change the way you've been fueling it's worth a shot.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. A miracle happened. I picked up a copy of the Ensign in the afternoon and started reading it. Normally my eyes start getting tired in half an hour of reading anything, I cannot read for more than half an hour straight. Given the way I was feeling around that time I was expecting my eyes  to tire out in 15 minutes. But I read for almost 2 hours and the eyes did not feel tired. I learned a lot. I figure there was something important for me there so the Lord made my eyes strong enough to read it.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From marion on Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 18:06:50

I'm impressed! That may be a record of sorts! :) So great to meet you today! Thanks for letting me bike along with your run with Michelle! It's like getting invited to eat at the "cool kids" table at lunch :)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.700.000.300.0016.00

A.M. Paced the kids at Onion Days in Payson. Next year I want to have our own Fast Running Blog races. I am tired of supporting raffle jogs. Consider this - with some very rare exceptions every race around here gives away a prize of greater value in a raffle than it does to the overall winner. What kind of message does this send? "We are all winners" -:) ? Why do we even race? Why even bother paying a timing company a thousand bucks to time the race, and then hold an award ceremony? Just bring everybody to the start, fire the gun, jog, everyone is a winner, then go straight to the raffle afterwards.

Yes, dealing with the reality that you are in a race you cannot win can be hard. At the start of the Minuteman 5 K it was announced that we would have an opportunity to win some cash. I knew that most of the crowd had a statistical zero chance of beating me, and yet I had a statistical zero chance of getting any cash. So much for the chance. There was no chance. Many runners approached me asking if I was going to win, or if I had won. They were rather shocked when I told them about the statistical zero, or, post-race, materialized zero. They could not comprehend the dreadful reality of that zero. Yet it is in those races if we choose to face our own inadequacy that we develop the strength to push ourselves and improve. Had I not chosen to face that dreadful zero earlier I would still be running 2:40 marathons.

So we went to the race. It was a 5 K. Benjamin ran by himself in 21:56, 20th place overall among men (out of 118 runners), chicked only 6 times (out of 134 runners), not bad for a kid. Splits were 6:45, 7:07, 7:22, 42. Won 1-9 division by over 6 minutes. Probably course record in his division, but they do not keep track of those. Beat everybody in 10-13 division as well. For some reason he was having a slow day. He ran 21:12 on a slower course 4 months ago. Two possibilities - his pants were too long and too moisture absorbing, and that slowed him down in the second half of the race when it started to rain. Or maybe he is just going through a growth spurt, and his cardio is lacking a bit. In any case, 21:56 is quite a respectable time for a 9 year old, so I am not going to worry about it.

I paced Jenny while pushing Jacob and Joseph. She was doing well in the first mile and a little after, acting feisty, having fun passing people. First mile in 7:26, a slight downhill. The second mile was a mild uphill, and we started to get some minor headwind as well. She slowed down to 7:54. She caught up to a few adult girls in the third mile and that got her going a bit faster. Her next mile was 7:49. She ran 52 seconds from 3 miles to the finish, which I think was a little long. I ran the course two more times later for the mileage. First time around I hit that stretch in 51 seconds going about 7:20 pace, and second time around 49 seconds going around 6:30 pace (based on the split from 2 to 3). Jenny finished in 24:01, new PR by 1:03. 14th place among women overall. Won her age division (1-9), but the win was dimmed by the fact that there were only two girls running. However, she beat everybody in the 10-13 division as well, and set a course record I imagine - at least I have not seen a faster time in that division in the past. Only 43 out of 118 mostly adult men avoided the fate of being chicked by 8 year old Jenny.

Julia paced Marion, sort of. That was a way of finding something productive to do for Julia during the race. I thought that if we gave Julia pacing responsibilities she would be able to mentally handle a 5 K better. They ran together, then Julia took off, then got tired and walked, then Marion caught up to her, then at the end after I had come back Marion picked it up, and Julia started to struggle and fell back a bit. Marion got 30:57. Julia ran 31:12, but she was not officially in the race.

Sarah being 32 weeks pregnant ran 34:37, and finished 91st out of 131 women. That is a huge late pregnancy PR for her. She inspired me to create a new concept - virtual pregnancy. You do not have to be a woman to be virtually pregnant. If you are under 50, are not actually pregnant, and cannot break 34:37 in a 5 K, you are virtually pregnant. What is special about Sarah is that she is not a super-athlete. Her all-time 5 K PR is 24:19. So a 34:37 5 K can reasonably be used as some basic health test. If you cannot break it, it is a condition (virtual pregnancy), and it is probably time to make some life style changes.

Ran some more mile afterwards to make the total of 12, including running the 5 K course twice. Second time around decided to beat Benjamin's time, picked up the pace a bit, and got 21:22. Had to run 6:30 pace at the end to do it. Noticed that the difference between 6:30 and 7:20 for me is mostly in the focus. 7:20 = light breathing while spacing out, 6:30 = same breathing as 7:20 but a lot more focus.

Finished at Marion's house.

A.M-2. Michelle had another 4 miles in her, so we plotted against Marion and convinced/tricked her into going with us on a bike for another 4 miles. Just as we got out the door it started raining very hard including hail. Hail always makes me think of a scripture in Helaman 5:12 in the Book of Mormon which basically says that the winds and the hailstorms of the devil have no power of those who build their foundation on Christ.

At the end of the run I remember Ted telling me about Bill Dillinger coaching him at Oregon and the surprise challenges at the end of a workout. So I figured Michelle could use one of those, and I challenged her to run hard to the end. Then Marion challenged me to beat her, and that gave me a chance to turn my legs over a bit.

Five Fingers - 1243.27 miles.


Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Kelli on Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 20:48:02

WOW! You are funny with the pregnancy thing. Good point, though. Sarah did AMAZING!!

Your kids did so well. I wish they kept track of all time records for the race, too. I think it is great that they were passing adults. They are great little runners with great attitudes.

I just want to add that I agree 100% that the raffle prizes were far better than what those who won got! I have never been to a raffle race before, but I was kind of annoyed that they would give away iPods, yet just give Michelle a jacket for her win and the men a blanket. So, you have a good point there as well. LET'S do some FRB races, that would be cool!

Thanks for the advice on running. I seem like I do not listen, but I did. I just do not want to hear that I could be faster if I would work harder. I have too much lazy in me, but my husband is slowly running it out of me.

And Sasha science is amazing. Way to predict my time. You floored me there. We will see how close you are about my SG time in a month or so!

From marion on Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 21:00:15

FRB races are a great idea!

Thanks for getting me under 31 :)

I LOVE the VP standard. Most excellent. The best part is that I am NOT virtually pregnant!!!! :D Now I just need to set my sights on the sub 23.

Thanks again! This blog really is something special!

From saamijeff on Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 23:20:40

I will never be able to stand at the end of a 5K waiting for the rest to finish with a straight face after 34:37 ticks by. I really like the term!

From kellies on Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 23:47:45

Good job today and I am impressed with your children. They are great little athletes and it sounds like the sky is the limit for them, running as well as they do for such youngsters. It was nice meeting you and your wife at Marion's house. I really would have loved the opportunity to run a few more miles with the "Pros" but felt it was time to go home and have some family time with the kids. So, Sasha, because you are so skilled in the science end of running, I have to ask your opinion on something and I hope that you do not get annoyed by my "Using" you or the blog for this. But, I am really hoping to BQ this year at St. George and I am wondering, based on my recent races, what you predict my finish time at SGM to be. Would you mind looking at my blog and letting me know what you think? I would greatly appreciate it. Good to meet you again, I hope that you and your family continue to do well. Good luck with that new baby coming.

From Lybi on Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 23:54:24

Virtually pregnant! Hahahaha! You are downright terrible. Does this apply to men who can't beat this time too? Perhaps beginning runners should be given 9 months before applying the term, I think.

Your wife is AMAZING! I couldn't believe my eyes! Good job to little Julia too. First 5K?

From wheakory on Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 02:06:22

Great day of racing for the whole family. Way to go Sasha and nice fun day it sounds like with the family.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 18:04:31

Lybi - a man can be virtually pregnant. No allowance for novices. A healthy individual (not in the definition of the traditional medical system, which is being able to sit for 8 hours a day) should be able to run 11:00 pace for 3 miles with no training specific to running. General aerobic conditioning done in adequate measure such as biking, swimming, active ball games, etc combined with a well-balanced healthy diet is sufficient to allow an individual of either gender under 50 to pass the virtual pregnancy cut-off without having to train specifically for the event. If our medical system considered virtual pregnancy as a serious illness to be cured, we would not have to worry about a myriad other illnesses.

KellieS - I'll leave a comment in your blog.

From saamijeff on Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 01:01:18

Why an age 50 cut off? Don't we count too? I tried a slow as I could go walk/jog recovery run today just to see.

Sorry I could go no slower than 32:10 even with 7 or 8 minutes of walking.

From MichelleL on Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 17:54:41

I would not advocate putting on lots of FRB races. I was the race director of a 5k with kids races for four years and it is brutal, took me well over 100 volunteer hours per year, and now that I am training more diligently I couldn't fit it into my schedule. Anyone who is training 10-20 hours per week couldn't volunteer much time to putting on an event, let alone a series of events.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.002.500.002.5016.00

A.M. Ran with Jeff. 2.62 warm-up. Noticed during the warm-up that I was running faster than normal and not as sleepy. Jeff and I speculated if taking a day off work made a difference. I've had this happen before - neural fatigue, then do not work for an extra day, and all of a sudden feeling the power coming back. And the opposite too - lots of work that requires mental focus, then neural fatigue symptoms full blast.

Then 5 mile Vladmir Kuts tempo. Kuts won the Olympic gold in 5000 and 10000 in 1956. In the 10000 he wore out his main competitor Gordon Pirie with a sequence of hard quarter mile long surges. Thus I decided to name this workout in his honor.

The plan was to run 90 seconds for the recovery quarters, and as fast as I could in the fast quarters given the recovery constraints. This workout serves multiple purposes:

Work on race specific speed. Regular 400 meter repeats work on something else - they teach you to run 400 meters essentially fresh. Starting HR for me would be 100-120. In this workout, starting HR is 150-155, and even as high as 160 in the later intervals.

Teach better economy in the marathon pace range. Something happens when you start thinking of 6:00 pace as something you do in between intervals to recover. You run more relaxed, and try to savor every step, and every gasp of breath as if it were your last one.

Reboot the nervous system. We play a trick on it. We say, go fast for just a quarter, then it's break time. Somehow this works. All of a sudden it fires harder than it would have otherwise and does not quit. Yet in the end there is not much of a break. The brain just thinks there is going to be a break. And I think the constant jerking tends to wake it up as well.

I thought the recent struggles maintaining 5:00 pace for as little as a mile would make consistently averaging 80 a challenge. However, I ended up doing much better than expected.

Jeff was in charge of the recovery pace to keep it honest. That helped a lot. He also took charge on the fast quarters, which kept me honest as well.

Splits: 89, 75, 89, 75 (5:28), 91, 74, 91, 76 (5:32), 91, 74 (13:45 at the turnaround), 94, 76 (5:35), 89, 77, 90, 76 (5:32), 91, 78, 90, 75 (5:34) - 27:41.2 for 5 miles. This was the fastest time for this tempo since DesNews. On Saturday all I could do running much more evenly paced was 28:06.

HR - climbed to 163 at the end of most intervals, back down to 150 at the end of each recovery. On the last one Jeff was yelling at me with a very loud voice to give him five. I did all I could, and this drove HR up to 168.

Afterwards ran a cool down with Jeff to 10.5 total, then 1.5 with Jacob in the stroller, then 2 with Benjamin running and Julia in the stroller in 15:44. We were out of soy milk, so we ran to Albertsons.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:13, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:48 during Benjamin's soccer game at Wasatch elementary. Benjamin's team won 3-0. Jenny lost her bunny. Although she is fast enough to be an asset on your average high school cross country team, she is still only 8 and does get upset about her lost precious bunny. We have an idea of where it may have been left. When we came to look for it later Phil Olsen's son told us he had seen it, and showed us the approximate location, but it was not anywhere near. I looked for it this morning again, and I found just about everything of greater interest for someone to pick up except for Jenny's bunny. Jenny is very upset. There was a cross-country meet going on around that time as well. If you know anything about Jenny's bunny, send us a note.

T4 Racer - 501.93 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.280.000.000.0016.28

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Josse. Paced Josse through 3x2 miles. She ran 13:08, 13:34, 13:30. On the last one she wore my HRM. Interesting HR patterns. She started the interval with HR of 125. It climbed to 165 in 0.5. Then around 1.25 she hit 172. In the last quarter she was able to be consistently over 180, and maxed out at 187. During the cool down her HR hovered in the 145-150 range. So, assuming the HRM was working right, we are looking at a cardio/aerobic power limitation. At least over that interval. It would be interesting to see what her HR does when she crashes around mile 7 of a half-marathon.

P.M. -1 Ran 1.03 with Benjamin, Jenny, and Julia to pick up our new van in 10:03. Julia fell back a bit and finished in 10:11. Fueling a CNG vehicle is a different experience. Definitely less convenient, and it takes longer - took about 5 minutes to pump 6.8 gallons, and we had to wait for two people ahead of us to finish since only one pump was working. However, cannot complain about the price. Filled up about half a tank for $5.83. This should be good enough for about 100 miles. And if you do run out of gas you have to be towed.

P.M -2: 1 with Benjamin in 8:48 with Jenny joining for the first 0.5 in 4:39. Then 4 miles on the trail to the Utah Lake in the dark in 29:45. I could only hear crickets and my footsteps as I watched the very late stage of the sunset. It was beautiful.

The reason I ran out 4 miles was that Joseph wanted to go for a ride in our new van. So Sarah drove to the Utah Lake to pick me up. Noticed how roomy the van was. All that room will come handy during relays. If only we can make sure we do not run out of gas, that is.

On the way home we observed an interesting scene. Two cows were being escorted along the road by a pickup truck and two police cars with their lights on. We were stuck behind the procession for a few minutes. Finally the cows made it home, and we were able to resume normal driving.

Five Fingers - 1258.52 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From Superfly on Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 19:37:22

I'm jealous! I'm really into the CNG vehicles and most likely will buy one as my next vehicle purchase. Although I'd get one that can do both gas and NG just in case you needed it.

In any case that's awesome you got a CNG Van. Now you should paint it up with Fastrunningblog.com (pictures and color) stuff and it can be a driving bill board.

From Cheryl on Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 20:02:24

Can you explain why you called Josse's heartrate pattern a cardio/aerobic power limitation? What should the heartrate be doing ideally?

From Bonnie on Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 21:00:38

Hi Sasha, I heard the other day that there is a company that can hook up a CNG pump to an existing gas line from your house. That way you can fill up at home and pay using your existing gas bill ... I don't know if the technology is available here in Utah yet, but it sounds pretty cool!

From Bonnie on Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 21:01:34

oh, by the way, FRB site does really well using Google Chrome!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 14:02:53

Cheryl:

Performance in distance running is limited by two types of factors: aerobic/cardio and neural drive. As it is near impossible to have both subsystems perfectly match each other in strength, it nearly always be one or the other - either the heart will reach the top of its pumping ability, you can still push, but you go into severe oxygen debt, or the opposite - the heart is barely working but you cannot go any faster because your brain is weak/tired and cannot cope with the intensity and complexity of fast running. A simple test to see what limits you is to run a fast pace that you will not be able to sustain for too long (e.g about your 2 mile race pace), and watch your heart rate. If you are limited by the cardio aspect you will see a steady HR drift upwards that will spike sharply as you battle to maintain the pace right before the failure occurs. After the failure, even as you decrease the pace, your HR will still hover around the maximum for a while even though you are going much slower. Your ability to pick the pace back up will coincide with a drastic drop in HR.

If it is the neural drive, your HR will steadily rise, but once the failure occurs and you slow down, it will quickly drop and will be only a couple of beats per minute higher than your normal HR at that slower pace that you would normally reach without the fast portion earlier. You will find yourself unable to speed up for a while even though your HR is staying quite a bit lower than what it maxed out at prior to failure. As you continue at that forced recovery pace you may at some point all of a sudden discover an ability to speed up as well. When you do speed up, your HR goes up as well.

If the problem is aerobic/cardio (which is the case for the majority of runners), the fix is easy. Just run more miles. If it is the neural drive, things get tricky. Sleep helps, staying carboloaded helps as well, keep easy runs very easy, avoid stress, do not think or focus too hard, avoid dull tasks, watch funny movies, visit friends, play games, etc. But it is still a mystery for me. The trouble is that every thought you think, every move you make every second of the day can affect your neural drive, and if it is the limit, then you will notice it when trying to run hard.

From Scott Zincone on Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 22:43:45

Too bad you could not convert all the methane from the cows into fuel for your new van.

From Cheryl on Fri, Sep 05, 2008 at 14:27:37

Sasha--Thanks for that explanation.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.003.000.0016.00

A.M. Ran with Derek. The plan was to do 6x1 mile with 200 recovery in 5:20 each. Ran 2.38 warm-up. Did the first one alone in 5:22.0. Splits: 82, 80, 81, 79. HR maxed out at 159, avg. 145. Felt good at 5:25-5:30 pace, but felt like there was an impassable wall at 5:20 pace.

Ran the next one with Derek in 5:20.1. Splits: 82, 80, 79, 79. HR avg 152, max 161. Same feeling as in the first one.

On the third one (alone) - 5:22.4. Splits: 81, 81, 81, 79. HR - avg. 153, max 164. Same feeling.

At this point I realized it was time to stop the workout. It became apparent that the nervous system was already tired at the start of the workout and making it work only made it more tired. Unlike the muscle the nervous system does not overcompensate during recovery. Maybe it would if you could truly rest it, but I do not have that luxury. I have to work to pay the bills, running does not do it. And I have other responsibilities as well. So in essence I should approach this like I would training an injured muscle in the circumstances that required me to use that muscle extensively during the day. The training would need to be of therapeutic nature.

Ran some more with Derek to 8 miles, and then another 3 by myself.

T4 Racer - 513.93 miles

P.M. 1.5 with Benjamin in 13:26 (he was not feeling well), 1.5 with Jenny in 13:17, and 1 with Julia in 11:00. Pushed Jacob.

Five Fingers - 1262.52 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.500.000.500.0016.00

A.M. Ran with Tyler, Matt, and Nick McCombs. Total of 12 miles in 1:32:47. Picked up in the last half mile for a neural drive test. Ran 84,81 (2:45) flat terrain, HR got up to 152. Felt energized in the second quarter and felt like I could hold that pace forever. The breathing was deep and vigorous, but at the same time pleasant and sustainable.

Did an experiment with Nick and Tyler. Tyler weighs about 140-145 lb, so essentially my weight. Nick weighs 115-120 lb. I arm wrestled both, and lost within 5 seconds both times. Asked both about their arm training activity. Tyler does push-ups once a week, Nick does not do anything. To add more data to this - last spring I arm wrestled Jeff (125 lb, no consistent arm training either) and lost in about 20-30 seconds.

The results confirm my suspicion that there is something more going on than just untrained arms.

Some more food for thought. Around the age of 9 and up until 11 I was tied with another kid in a group of 20 boys in the tennis ball throw. This was not just a one time thing - we threw the tennis ball about once a month in our PE classes. What is interesting is that while I was a skinny kid, the other was not that skinny. And he found himself at the rear in all forms of fitness tests. The average kid of my build would out-throw me by 50%, while there was one in that group that out-threw me by 100%. That same kid was number one in all fitness tests including distance running and cross-country skiing.

So in short, the hypothesis is that Quality X correlates with the ability to produce a lot of coordinated quick force per muscle mass in any muscle in the body without having to train it. So you could predict somebody's distance running potential fairly accurately with the following tests: make sure they have enough slow-twitch fibers, then make sure they do not have any inherent cardiovascular weaknesses or defects, and then have them throw a tennis ball and prorate the throw distance for body weight. Crazy idea - yes. But I think one day it will be proven right.

Another twist on it. If you stipulate slow twitch fiber dominance among the competitors, and prorate the throw distance for body weight and arm size, my predictions is that guys like Wanjiru and Bekele would have a shot at winning the world competition in the tennis ball throw. You can run low 2:20s in the marathon off pure aerobic power with a below average neurological explosiveness, but to run under 2:06 you need to be explosive.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:48, 1.5 alone in 11:53, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:16.

Five Fingers - 1278.52 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Race: Spanish Fork Half Marathon (13.11 Miles) 01:13:55, Place overall: 1
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
5.500.0013.110.0018.61

A.M. Spanish Fork Half Marathon, 1:13:55, first place.

Originally was planning on running Peruvian Lodge, but it conflicted with a church meeting in the afternoon which I did not want to miss. I figured a half marathon would be a good for marathon preparation anyway. And we had a comp that would have gone to waste otherwise. Plus I had not yet won any races this year. So I guess I was like an injured tiger that cannot catch quick antelopes anymore and goes for easier meat.

Also, this half is a loop course, no downhill. I always wonder and estimate what my downhill performances are worth on a loop course. This would be a good chance to get a less disputable measurement. I say "less disputable" because race directors make no claim of course certification, and I do not have any knowledge of that course being certified. However, I saw some signs of a diligent effort to ensure correct length. All mile splits made perfect sense. I also noticed that mile 2 of the 5 K was at the exact same spot as mile 11 of the half, while the finish of the 5 K was marked a few meters before the finish of the half. This is how it is supposed to be - the distance from mile 2 of the 5 K to the finish is about 4 meters longer than the distance from mile 11 of the half to the finish. It was comforting to know that the race directors cared enough to pay attention to that detail, they were not rounding it off to 0.1 of a mile.

But regardless, past performances on this course have established a standard. So in some respects it did not matter if the course was exact. We had the following benchmark times:

Dennis Simonaitis 1:12:53 (2005), Mike Kirk 1:14:33 (2004), Chris Rogers 1:16:08 (2007), Chad Derum 1:17:42 (2007).

The race website reports also that Trevor Pettingill ran 1:08:31 in 2003. I also know that Matt Harmer ran 1:11 in the same race. This sounds suspicious. Although both were in good shape around that time, neither of them had a performance of comparable quality. Trevor ran 1:09:57 a couple of weeks earlier in the Great Salt Lake Half, which has a net drop of 100 feet and a couple of short hills in the last 2 miles. Trevor that year hit what my predictor said he would within 20 seconds in every other race with the exception of St. George - the predictor said he would have run 2:19:23 while his actual time was 2:20:35, and Alta Peruvian lodge which is so weird of a race that the predictor is off quite often. Matt had run the Great Salt Lake half in 1:13:38 (I think), and was on the upswing getting into better shape, but I still find it questionable that he would have been capable of a 1:11 on the 2007/2008 course. Sounds like a different course, or a wrong turn.

The site also reports that Rolando Sanjinez ran 1:14:15 in 2006. That one is particular suspicious. That same year he ran 1:13:29 in Hobblecreek. An equivalent performance on this course would have been around 1:19-1:20. He also never in his entire racing history reported by Athlinks.Com produced a performance anywhere near in quality to that time, not even in a 10 K. There is no way somebody could gain a 5 minute improvement in the half in two weeks after racing consistently for a month at the same level in a 10 K. At the same time, Tony Vakaafi ran 1:12:55 in Hobblecreek that year, and 1:17:58 in the Spanish Fork Half, which does make sense. That sounds like Rolando may have taken a wrong turn.

Dennis, Mike, Chris, and Chad appear to have legitimate times relative to each other and consistent with their performance levels that year. So I figured I'd use those times as a guide and dismiss the dubious ones.

Warmed up 2.5 some by myself, and some with Tom. With no surprise appearances at the start (aside from myself) I was racing three virtual runners (Dennis, Mike, and Chris) and one real - Chad was here to represent himself, and he was in better shape as well leaving me no room for the neural fatigue garbage. From Provo River Half and from the second leg of Wasatch Back I knew that when the neural fatigue hits me, Chad is faster. So it was important to avoid neural fatigue at least for the first half of the race. I had an expectation not to hit any based on how I felt and what I did the day before, but I was not 100% sure. Neurological Sasha Science is still very much in development and quite error prone.

Ron Greenwood asked me how fast I was going to run it. I said based on my analysis I should be around 1:14-1:15.

I came to the race with my home family in our natural gas 15 passenger van. With it being our recent purchase I am still quite excited about the idea of CNG. So when I smelled the fumes from the lead motorcycle I remarked that it should be converted to natural gas. We had a pack for the first 2 minutes or so, and then I started to pull away. However, while crossing a busy road about 0.5 or so into the race there was an incident. There was no police protection, and a bus was coming full speed. I waved to the bus hoping it would stop. The driver either did not notice me, or did not care and kept blasting full speed. So I had no choice except use the skills I learned in Moscow while crossing the Moscow Belt Route (a 4-lane highway) on a daily basis - run on the road in the direction opposite of the bus, and as soon as it passed me and I was behind it, dash across the road. This allowed Chad to catch up, but he did not stay with me.

Mile splits are based on the race mile markers. Knowing those would be reliable from the last year race reports I did not bring a GPS.

First mile split - 5:37. I think we climbed some, but it was subtle. I lost about 3-4 seconds on the bus. Chris had 5:52 last year. Not feeling overexerted, but neurologically just staying a little bit below the red line. I know something about that red line - you cross it, and the race is over. The challenge is to sense it since I could cross it without breathing very hard. But I think I am learning.

Mile 2 - 5:40. More uphill. Happy to still have 3 seconds on the 5:40 guy. Knowing what's up ahead I knew I would need every one of those seconds. Good news - ran uphill breathing energetically, but without perceived neural overexertion. That is a sign of the neurological health and bodes well for the rest of the race.

Mile 3 - 5:46. Still uphill. Not very steep. Still feeling good. Quick relaxed stride. Moving as fast as I can without crossing the red line.

Mile 4 - 5:43. Not bad considering the steep rhythm breaking bump in the middle. But the rest of it was flat, that helped. Hit the red line briefly on the bump, but did not go over. The bump did not bother me very much otherwise, recovered quickly. Another good sign. Only 6 seconds behind the 5:40 guy after the bump mile, and based on what I heard the next mile is faster, looking forward to it.

Mile 5 - 5:33. The reports were verified. This was a good mile. Had a slight barely noticeable downhill for a portion. I did not notice it until I had to come back, though. Shows how biased the human mind is in the area of recognizing blessings vs adversity. I wondered why I was able to move my legs so quick without much effort all of a sudden. A church hymn came into my mind during this mile. My favorite one - A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief. I find it interesting how a slow tune can help a fast pace. The tune might be slow, but the message is deep, and thus it brings the power. Happy to be 1 second ahead of the 5:40 guy.

Mile 6 - 5:47. Started with a slight down (I think), but then there was a steep bump, and maybe it was more than a bump. There goes my lead over the 5:40 guy, but he better watch out because I am feeling good, and we'll be dropping elevation on the way back.

Mile 7 - 5:54. Steeper climb. Slowest mile of the race, but I was expecting that from the race reports. Felt strong on the uphill. Hit the red line, but not for long enough to go over it. The 5:40 guy is laughing at me about his 20 seconds lead. I am shaking my fist at him in hopes of a quick revenge now that we are that highest point of the course.

Mile 8 - 5:28. Downhill, finally. But too abrupt which made it too short. Now done with the loop, running the course backwards, and seeing the crowd going in the opposite direction. Recognized a couple of people in the crowd - Kim Lee, and Josse's mom. I am sure there were more that I should have recognized as people were greeting me by name. My face recognition ability does not work very well at race pace. The 5:40 guy now has only 8 seconds, but still is hoping to hold me off. Better give him a name - I think his name is Mike Kirk, aka Virtual Mike.

Mile 9 - 5:40. No downhill, that is my excuse for not closing on Virtual Mike. He is laughing at me, looking back, and poking out his tongue. In the meantime Virtual Dennis is feeling pretty safe.

Mile 10 - 5:39. Seeing the uphill in front of me, realizing what helped me run 5:33 going the other way, and being tired of Virtual Mike's teasing I pressed a bit harder, but still a tad under the red line. Then we did the mile 4 bump backwards, and I floored it on the down-bump to steal a second from Virtual Mike on a slow mile that he hoped to gap me on.

Mile 11 - 5:36. Virtual Mike is concerned. His lead is down to 3 seconds, I am gaining momentum, there is downhill up ahead, and there will also be a kick. He is hoping for sudden neural fatigue which can happen, but we would need some uphill for that, and there is not much except for a little bump with about half a mile to go.

Mile 12 - 5:35. Virtual Mike has been passed, and I think now has lost all hope. Virtual Dennis is out of reach, but sub-1:14 is not. If I finish in 1:13:something, he will not laugh so hard at me looking down from his 1:12:53 podium. Saw the 5 K crowd going the other direction. They started exactly 1 hour after we did. So the ones that are faster than 6:00 mile could possibly be catching some half-marathoners, the ones that are in that range could possibly be racing them, and the ones that are much slower will be getting passed by half marathoners. Interesting situation. So the 1:18 guys could possibly have some fun racing Holly Hagerman. She ended up chicking the field with 18:51, and she is a master. How about that - the entire field got chicked by a master! First time I've heard of something like this in any race anywhere. To add injury to insult, a good portion of the field got virtually impregnated (for lack of a better term) and strollered as well by Jennifer Hughes who ran 24:50 while 29 weeks pregnant (I think) and pushing a stroller. Fast ladies live in Woodland Hills, Michelle has some good company.

Mile 13 - 5:28. Trying to dip under 1:14. Spent most of the mile making a promise to myself to floor it no matter where I was once my watch said 1:13:00. Tried to shift gears several times, but there was not much of a movement. Lived true to my promise at 1:13:02 but still felt like there was not much of a go in the legs. Saw 1:13:26 at 13 miles. Need only 34 seconds for the kick. Not hard assuming mile 13 is in the right place, but if it is a little off it may be a challenge. Assume it is off and on the wrong side, pedal down the floor, but the engine feels maxed out already. Close my eyes, try to not be distracted. Also this mental game of seeing the finish line closer suddenly once you open your eyes works wonders. They have a tape stretched out and everything, full show. Benjamin comes to help and starts racing me towards the tape. Several thoughts go through my head - his 100 meter PR from last spring is 17.7, he is fresh, and I do not want to get beat to the tape by my 9-year-old son! So I was able to find another gear and pull away from him a little bit.

The kick was 30 seconds by my watch (4:34 pace), which gave me 1:13:56, but my official time was 1:13:55. I am glad my stomach was empty and I did not take anything in during the race. After I finished I started making the throw up motions with my throat but nothing came out.

Could not wait for anything, had to get dressed and get going ASAP to take Benjamin to his soccer game, and then help Curt with the Provo Marathon. Benjamin's team won 5-1.

T4 Racer - 529.53 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:18, 2 with Benjamin in 16:45 with Jenny running the first 1.5 in 12:44.

Five Fingers - 1281.52 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Easier Meat on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:11:19

Nice race, Sasha. You looked very strong.

From Metcalf Running on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:40:33

Congratulations on your first 1st place this year!!! Looks like you had a very good race.

Lori

From paul on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 13:06:02

That's quite the intro: 8 full paragraphs before the race even starts. This will keep me entertained throughout the day today.

From Tom on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 17:28:48

Enjoyed your report Sasha. Congrats once again on 1st place and the tough effort even without having anyone else around (other than virtually) to push you.

Many runners say if you double your SF 1/2 marathon time that will give you a good prediction for SGM goal time. Now that you've run the race, I'm curious what Sasha-science says? Is 2xSFHM-time = SGM-predicted-time?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 17:44:18

Tom - only if you blow up. Mike Kirk ran 1:14:33 in Spanish Fork, and then 2:23:37 in St. George the same year. Chad ran 1:17:42, and then 2:32:59. If you are running 60+ miles a week and do not blow up on the downhill you should be able to run 3-5 minutes faster in St. George than double your Spanish Fork time.

From Tom on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 17:53:25

That's what I was hoping you would say. I occurs to me that many of the runners I know that quote the 2x formula are running more in the 30-50 mile a week range for large chunks of the year and only go higher than that for maybe a few weeks in the summer. So for them double SFHM time is probably about right.

From Dale on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 18:02:18

Great race Sasha. Glad you're starting to get this neural fatigue issue sorted out. Very entertaining race report too.

From Superfly on Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 19:42:13

LOL! Holly Cow! Sorry Sasha but I'm with Paul on this one. That intro was amazing! Paul if we could only be at Fudruckers or IHOP right now with the rest of the guys.

Regardless of past performances- Your race this year was a good one. Way to find another gear at the end.

From Paul T on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 14:14:58

Thanks for the detailed report, Sasha. I love getting inside the head of other runners and seeing how they mentally approach races (and training). I learn a lot.

Your Frogger-like move to avoid the bus sounds impressive.

Congratulations on the win!

From wheakory on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 16:22:29

Nice run as always Sasha. You really did finish the last few miles strong and your nervous system didn't fatigue on you. That has to be good progress going into TOU and St. George.

What Model/year is your CNG van.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 17:59:13

Kory - it is Dodge RAM B2500 1996.

From Jennifer Pachev on Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 16:52:11

I helped with the marathon to.

From RivertonPaul on Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 15:38:18

Belated congrats. You've probably seen the pic, but just in case:

http://picasaweb.google.com/SpanishForkHalfand5K/SpanishFork12Marathon5k#5244060523387175810

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Caught up on sleep. My body really needed it after getting up at 5:00 AM the day before and no nap.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 11.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.500.000.500.0016.00

A.M. Ran 6 with Derek, then 6 alone. Total time for 12 was 1:29:48. Did a 0.5 pickup with the splits of 81,78 (2:39) to test neural drive. Got good feedback. The pace felt tempo-natural, I did not feel like I had to force it. The breathing felt energetic, but not out of control.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:34, 1 pushing Jacob in 7:57, 2 with Benjamin in 16:40 still pushing Jacob. Jenny joined us for the first 1.5 in 13:13.

Five Fingers - 1298.52 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.600.700.700.0012.00

A.M. 6 with Tyler and Derek, then 6 more alone. Was originally planning on 6x1 mile but did not get good sleep last night because of itching. Did not want to stress the weakened nervous system, so canceled the workout. But it must have been doing as bad as I thought. Towards the end of the run I started feeling edgy and picked it up to 6:00 pace for about 0.7 to calm down the neighing horses. Then I felt like another pickup and decided to do a tempo quarter. Hit in 82, still felt energetic, did another one in 81. The second one was rather obstructed - I had to go under a bridge, uphill around a corner, then a 90 degree turn and some rough road. Then with about 0.2 to go I was itching to do a stride. Once I started the stride it felt good so I decided to keep that pace to the end. This gave me an 86 quarter in spite of running slow in the beginning. Nevertheless, I still think not doing the mile workout was a good idea. Those neighing horses are often just on the surface. You push for a few miles hard, they stop neighing, and you feel flat. Save the energy for another day.

Total time for 12 was 1:29:26.

While I was itching last night and could not get to sleep I decided to call my dad in Russia. We had a good talk. We talked about many things including the perceptions Russians have of the United States. While talking to him a thought hit me. America has two faces. A beautiful face of service and an ugly face of greed. Our ability to get along with other nations depends on which one of those faces they are able to see. As a teenager I found myself on the side of America because I was able to see that face of service. The time was right and God's blessing was there. However, not everybody will live in that time and will have the same blessing. A sure way to improve our ability to get along is to completely get rid of the ugly face of greed. We must do in on an individual level. We must decide today to control our appetites, serve with all of our hearts, and do so consistently, without exceptions, excuses, or skipping. If we do that, everybody, not just select few, it will have an effect of solving most foreign policy issues naturally without even trying. If we do not, we deserve all of the problems, and it would not be right for us to expect those problems to be solved until we are committed to changing ourselves.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:52, 0.5 with Benjamin in 4:09. Then 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny. We found a potential running partner on the trail - Tyler Carr. He turned out to be a Russian speaker as well, so he and I chatted mostly in Russian. Benjamin needed to go the bathroom towards the end of the run, so he picked it up. This gave him 12:43 for 1.5 and 16:52 for 2 miles total. Jenny and I finished 1.5 in 12:53. Ran another mile with Tyler. Pushed Jacob in the stroller.

Five Fingers - 1314.52 miles

Night Sleep Time: 6.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.00
Comments
From Clay on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 15:35:55

The only problem with your 2 faces theory is that the extremist Islamic world and I am talking about the minority of Islamic people want nothing but to kill us, regardless of which face we are wearing... It would be a wonderful world if that where the case Sasha, and I applaud your reasoning but when your dealing with people that only know death and destruction your avenues are very limited:-D

Keep up the good training, it was good to see you out in front last Saturday in Spanish Fork, your pace looked effortless...

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 17:16:46

Clay - I do not know much about what is going on in the minds of the Islam extremists and how they get to that point. But I can tell you something about how the Soviet system brainwashed their youths to be ready to fight America any second and give their lives to kill an American. While there would definitely be a lot of culture and circumstance specific differences I expect that there will be a lot of general direction parallels. One thing people perhaps do not understand is that the Soviet propaganda have never reported anything that was not true to the fact. They simply scoured American media stories and translated/reprinted only the ones that fit their agenda. And, to our shame, there were way too many that did. The bigger that ugly face gets the less distortion is required on the side of America's foes to create a picture that would raise a youth to be a foe as well. Regardless of how restricted or free of a society you are in, there is always a certain culture/society specific maximum distortion level K_d that will go past the recipients unnoticed. Depending on our own conduct, for every society there is a minimum value of distortion K_a that will be sufficient to antagonize that group or nation against us. So if K_d < K_a, the group becomes our friend - the propaganda just cannot twist the facts enough and fool their people. If K_d > K_a, a combination of things works against us, some of which we can control and others we cannot. One that we can control is our own behavior. When we have chosen to serve, K_a increases. More distortion is needed to make us look as bad as before the change. When we have chosen to be selfish, K_a decreases - less distortion is required to make us look equally bad. In certain societies and cultures there might be nothing we can do to make K_a > K_d. For Satan himself, for example, K_a is 0 and it does not change no matter what you do. He hates you no matter what you do, and he wants you in hell. But we know that such individuals are not allowed to be born, they can only influence those who live on Earth. Most people living today would have a reasonable K_a in response to a sincere effort to live a clean life and serve on behalf of every American. Even the most closed and prejudiced societies would have a difficult time setting up a K_d that would be high enough to cover it.

From tyler on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 17:40:36

The thing that I like about your post, Sasha, is that it puts responsibility back into the hands of individuals. I think we get too used to blaming scapegoats for the problems in our country, when it begins with each one of us.

From Clay on Tue, Sep 09, 2008 at 18:48:51

Sasha, They are the way they are because they are raised that way, they are taught to hate, period. I need you to put your comment into laymen terms, because I don't know the point you were trying to make. Which is my problem by the way, I am a meat and potatoes kind of guy, sorry. But I do agree that it starts with each individual on how we act and then how that affects other people, and in a perfect world that would work, but unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, yet;-(

From hmmm on Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 22:09:37

In response to Clay:

We seem too quick to look at Islamic extremism without looking at Christian extremist who have the same goals, wipe out anyone who does not believe the way they do. Single biggest loss of life outside of 9/11, was Oklahoma city - 2 christian whites - extremism in all forms is dangerous and Islam certainly does not have a corner on that market. I certainly do not agree with terrorist ideology, but we should strongly look at the circumstances that makes someone willing to take not only someone else's life but their own life as well. We have infiltrated their most holy lands and exploited all of their natural resources to feed our own greed. We have established military bases on their land and in places they consider to be the founding of their religion. We have established our presence on a permanent basis when we promised only a temporary commitment. Would we be complacent if a foreign entity established a permanent military presence in our homeland. We need to ask what our responsibility has been to create this kind of environment, not to mention what role we played in creating islamic extremism in order to defeat our own enemies!

From Clay on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:51:01

In response to hmmm;

They attacked us on 911 we didn't attack them, and I agree with you on the extremists Christians as well, but like I said it is still hard to reason with someone who is going to kill you no matter what. I believe that we are a noble nation and that we try to do good and that our intentions are good. I don't know what you are talking about as far as the bases our concerned, but they are there under good intentions too, like protecting the free people in the region... We as nation have not created the terrorists that is a lame Idealog, that's like saying are actions in the early 30's created Nazism!

From hmmmm on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 13:26:25

I love a good discussion and your points are well taken. I would argue that the bases are certainly not built with good intention or to protect the rights and freedoms of the citizens of those countries. Saudi Arabia has one of the worst records in the world on human rights yet we maintain a strong military presence there. It is in our best interest to make sure the government of Saudi Arabia stays in place, any change would surely mean no more oil for us. Remember 15 of the 19 terrorist came from Saudi Arabia. In regards to Nazism, it was not the policies in the 1930's that led to the rise of Nazi Germany, it was the policies post WWI that created the conditions in Germany that led to the rise of Nazism. Germany was punished after WWI, the people placed in deplorable conditions, and the nation straddled with an impossible debt. Under those conditions, people will rise and follow anyone who offers them hope!! The western nations learned after WWII not to repeat those actions - thus the Marshall Plan, to rebuild our former enemies so they would not have the desire to attack again.

I would agree that it is near to impossible to reason with someone who intent is to kill, but the conditions that allow these people to thrive are what need to change.

From Clay on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 13:33:05

Ya it's always good to discuss things, and wouldn't it be great if we could change peoples thinking in some of these nations that don't really understand our nation. I think miss information is the evilest form of propaganda around, ah in a perfect world...

Have a good one.

From running for peace on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 19:02:27

--Sasha Great points!--Thank you!! And I will apologize for continuing this discussion which should probably take place elsewhere on the forum, but...

--Tyler & --Hmmmm Good points as well!

--Clay - why don't you start with yourself and change your thinking!! You are the one full of evil misinformation, and propaganda. Why don't you study and understand the history of the Middle East first of all, before you make pretentious judgments and blame them. Nothing justifies what we have done to Iraq and their people! Over 1,255,026 Iraqi Casualties since the war began, and Over 100,00 American military casualties. This is not an act of a Noble Nation! ***"An Eye for and Eye makes the whole world blind"!!!!***

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 19:33:21

No problem with political discussion on the blog.

Do not have much to say about Middle East as I am not from there and do not quite understand the situation. However, I do have some idea of how different actions of Americans influence the public opinion of America among Russians living in Russia. Which in turn influences Russian politics towards America.

The core problem is that the average Russian perceives Americans as a group of greedy flakes that exist for the sole purpose of perpetual entertainment and are not given to much thought. Those living in the US would probably admit that while such perception is oversimplified it is by far not unfounded. There are other problems as well, but in my opinion if we could address the core one those others would eventually disappear. And the good news that the fix for the core one is 90% in our hands. It is much easier to change the perceptions once you have fixed the reality.

From Clay on Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 11:46:08

Running for peace:

You are not nice young man, your information is wrong, 100,000 of our military killed, your nuts! You need to stay off the Far left websites! I have never said that an eye for an eye is right, I said that it is hard to reason with someone who only wants to kill you. And the ones that want to kill us are the minority. So you basically think that America is an evil nation right? And I never once blamed the middle east or the muslims there it is a small minority that are causing the problem the rest are good people!

Maybe you need to look at yourself and change your thinking and quit accusing me of being evil.

Sasha and Tyler you both made good points, and I respect your point of view.

Running for peace you don't even know me and you are making snap judgements about me, you are whats wrong with American!

From running for peace on Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 13:45:33

Clay,

I find it fascinating you assume I'm a leftist nut and not a nice young man, when in fact, I am a non-partisan intelligent nice young female.

Good Luck to you, keep believing that the US does not spread propaganda and the actions of the US government are always done with noble intentions. I leave you with this quote from conservative jounalist Charley Reese: "The truth is that neither British nor American imperialism was or is idealistic. It has always been driven by economic or strategic interests."

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.703.000.800.0018.50

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Derek, Michelle, and Josse. Michelle did 4K - 3K - 2K - 1K workout with 200 recoveries. We took a longer recovery between 2K and 1K because she was losing steam a bit in the 2 K. Her times were 15:32.1, 11:12.7, 7:34.1, and 3:28.7. That longer recovery helped for 1 K. She still could not get her HR over 180 no matter what she did, and could not hold it consistently over 176. Yet as high as it is when she jogs, she should be able to push it into 185-190 range at least. Josse did a fun workout without a watch joining us for portions of the intervals. Total of 15.5 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:47, 2 with Benjamin in 16:22, first 1.5 had Jenny with us, the time was 12:43.

Five Fingers - 1333.02 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From MichelleL on Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 18:07:19

Thanks again for helping me through my workout. I wouldn't be wear I am without you (and without your wife supporting you and your crazy bent toward running - go Sarah!), so I appreciate it.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.250.002.250.0016.50

A.M. Ran alone. Jeff and Derek were supposed to come at 5:30 AM, but neither showed up. The plan was to try 6x1 mile but back out if I sensed trouble. Warmed up 4 miles. Ran the first repeat in 5:20.8 and it felt harder than it should have. On the second one (5:22.5) it became clear the nervous system was not up to it. The lungs felt lazy, and the legs felt like cotton. It was still dark at that point. I jogged a couple of miles waiting for the sun to rise, and decided to see if maybe it was just the lack of light - start an interval, finish it if sub-5:20 pace started coming naturally, otherwise stop as soon as it became clear things were not any better. They were not any better - I ran a quarter in 82 and did not feel like going any faster. Ran easy the rest of the way. Total of 12 miles.

Got home, and then ran 2 more with Benjamin in 15:47. He ran his standard 0.5 in 3:02.

My normal approach in the past when I had a speed workout planned has been to force my way through it regardless of how I felt. I decided to make a change to that. I will reserve the heroic effort for races. If a workout is not going well, I will give it some time to make sure it is not a lack of warm-up, and once it becomes clear there is a problem, then bag it. My thinking is that if the body does not want to run hard it will not become stronger from running hard.

T4 Racer - 543.53 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:59, and then 1.5 with Jenny in 13:03 during Benjamin's soccer practice. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.25Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Comments
From tyler on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 13:12:01

What time are you running tomorrow?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 13:27:08

7:00 AM.

From Tom on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 14:08:17

Sasha although I don't generally gain satisfaction in other runners having off days, it does make me feel a little better about my off day yesterday to see that you have them sometimes as well.

In the past like you I've tended to want to force things when I have a planned workout, but after paying the price many times over with that approach and suffering negative consequences I'm finally learning (I hope) to listen and distinguish between the body saying "I don't want to do this right now but I will if you warm up a little longer" vs. "Today it isn't going to work, stop this foolishness now or suffer the consequences!!"

Good luck next time around, I'm sure today was just an abberation.

From tyler on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 16:25:14

Bummer, 7 is too late for me tomorrow. What about Saturday?

From Michelle N. on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 16:31:18

You know, I thought you were just a person with super human powers. I think you still are but it's nice too know you have a day that you don't feel up to par. I tend to do what you said and push through it all and pay for it later and it ruins future workouts because of exhaustion. I think we all need to listen a little closer to what our bodies are telling us.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 16:58:54

Tyler - we can start at 6 if that works better.

From tyler on Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 17:06:59

6 works for me. See you tomorrow.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.050.004.000.0016.05

A.M. Ran 12 miles total, 6 miles with Tyler. Decided to test the neural drive and run a control mile. Ran the last mile of the standard 5 mile tempo course in 5:19.8. That one is a slow mile - direction difference is 7 seconds and I ran it in the slow direction. Felt decent. The breathing was energetic, but not bothersome. Legs felt some initiative. So I decided to do a 3 mile tempo towards the end of my run once I dropped off Tyler.

Ran 3 mile tempo from 7.62 to 10.62 into the run. Out and back course - to 1.5 of the 5 mile tempo, and then back. So about 8 second terrain difference between first and second half, second half slower. Splits: 81, 81, 81, 81 (5:24), 82, 83 (pre-180 turn, 8:09 first half), 84, 82 (5:31), 82, 83, 82, 79 (5:26). Total time 16:21.9.

HR: after the first mile hovered around 157. Then climbed up to 160. On the last quarter hit 168.

Subjective: felt very controlled up until 1.5. The turnaround knocked me out of rhythm, but I recovered OK. Felt energetic, but could run a faster pace. Fast pace made the legs feel sour (cannot kick, but can hold the pace for a while) vs led (like at the end of an all out 800 meters).

Thoughts: I think the problem today was the muscles were not relaxing in time. Which made it hard to run 80 second quarters or faster. The power aspect of the neural drive was OK, I think. I could push HR to 168. However, that HR should have produced a 76 second quarter, not a 79, based on being able to hit 82s at HR below 163. Around 80 second pace I was hitting the limit of how fast the muscle could relax, which is why it was so hard.

 T4 Racer - 555.53 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:22, 2 with Benjamin in 16:50, first 1.5 had Jenny with us (13:07), then 1.05 alone in 7:08.

 Five Fingers - 1337.07 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.007.000.000.0019.00

A.M. Went to our ward camp-out in the Hobble Creek Canyon. Did not get good sleep. My nose was cold. Decided to cut the run short and not push to hard to avoid putting the body over the edge and getting sick. Ran to the start of the Hobble Creek Half Marathon, then to mile 8, then back to the Cherry Campground. Total of 16 miles in 1:47:56. Picked up to about 5:45 pace from mile 1 of the half to 8. Then when I turned around and did not have the downhill anymore I did not feel motivated to push and just jogged at about 7:30 pace. Not surprising given only 3 hours of sleep in spite of 7 hours of attempted sleep.

Saw a few runners, more runners than cars, that is a good sign. I think I even saw Michelle and Josse, they were going the other way with two other runners who I did not recognize in the dark. I would not have recognized Michelle and Josse either except by their voices.

Afterwards had to hustle to Benjamin's soccer game. Little did I realize how long it could take to take a tent down, especially if you've never done it before. Fortunately I was wise enough to ask a more experienced fellow ward member for help early enough, so we were able to make it to the game on time. Benjamin's team played the team from our old neighborhood, and lost 1-3.

 T4 Racer - 571.53 miles

P.M. Special occasion. Jenny got baptized. Sarah and I gave talks, and then I baptized and confirmed her. Remembered my own  baptism in 1992. Interestingly enough it happened that I was baptized in a pond in Moscow that I used to circle during my runs.  I did not choose the location, though.

Later in the evening, ran 1 mile with Julia in 9:42, and 2 with Benjamin in 15:32 with Jenny running first 1.5 in 11:51. Considered running a few more, but decided to play it safe and not fatigue the body excessively. I do not want to get sick.

Five Fingers - 1340.07 miles

Night Sleep Time: 3.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 4.00
Comments
From marion on Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 13:02:57

Adventures in camping :D You were wise to get help with the tent. They can be down right tricky. Sounds like you and the family had a wonderful weekend, even with the camping. I can't ever sleep either. It's too cold. Burrrr!

From Burt on Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 13:09:12

I wish I could just jog at a 7:30 pace still. Those were the good old days.

Being able to baptize your children is an awesome experience. I've got three down and three to go.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church. Sarah spoke in the Sacrament Meeting, played the flute for a musical number, and substituted in Primary, all while 8 months pregnant. She thought she had a break compared to playing the organ.

Night Sleep Time: 9.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.750.001.250.0013.00

A.M. Ran with Tyler. Did a control 1 mile in 5:19.2. Same stretch as Friday, last mile of the 5 mile tempo course. Felt good. Energetic breathing was not bothersome and felt sustainable. No sour legs. One concern - legs felt slightly weak at the end, would have needed to go longer to find out if this was a problem, but did not want to go over the edge. Plus to go further I would have had to hit some nasty segments - under the bridge, sharp turns, rough trail, and it would have skewed the measurements.

Dropped Tyler off after 6.25, and went for another 3.75. Shortly before the turnaround saw a runner being pulled by a dog. Decided I wanted to get to know him, and also decided I wanted to have enough time to get to know him, so I needed to run pretty quick. So I hit a quarter in 78 to catch up. His name turned out to be Erny Perry. We had a nice chat.

Five Fingers - 1350.07 miles

A.M -2. Julia set a mile record - 8:17. Splits: 2:07, 2:08, 2:05, 1:57. She was conversational up until the last quarter. So I figure if she had the ability to focus she would have run a sub-8:00.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:09, Jenny ran first 1.5 in 13:10.

Five Fingers - 1352.07 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Lybi on Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:40:56

Sarah said you had a fall today. So sorry! Hope you are okay.

Wow about Julia! What a great time for a...wait, is she still 5? WOW!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.880.001.620.0012.50

A.M. Ran with Derek and Tyler for the first 6 miles. Did my neural drive test/avoid taper cramp tempo. Decided a good distance would be 1.5. Derek ran it with me, Tyler went ahead while I visited a VPB and Derek stretched. We started at the start of the 5 mile tempo course.

We started out slow - first 200 in 41. Probably due to a short warmup, and still not much sunlight. Then we picked it up and hit half mile in 2:39, and the mile in 5:15 (2:36). The second half was definitely aided, not sure by how much, but not by a whole lot. Maybe 3 seconds. I know, however, that the whole mile going the other way is 7 seconds slower. Based on the 2:1 rule ( twice as much loss in the anti-aided direction than the gain in the aided direction, good rule of thumb to determine a flat equivalent) this would make it about 2 seconds of help and about 5 seconds of hindrance in the opposite direction.

After that we eased off a bit and hit the next quarter in 80. Then we were confused because we still could not see Tyler. I suggested we run another 200 still on pace in hopes of catching him before the 3 mile turnaround from my house. So we did that. However, having to talk caused a bit of a loss of focus, and we ran the next quarter in 81. And then 41 for the last 200. I think both of us were still confused by Tyler's mysterious disappearance. We finished 1.625 in 8:37 (5:18 average pace), and soon found Tyler. Turned out he had stopped for a VPB.

Ran back, then added 2 with Benjamin in 15:45, and 2 without him in 14:56. Pushed Jacob in the stroller during that part of the run.

T4 Racer - 581.53 miles

P.M. Went to Benjamin's soccer game. They won 3-1. Later, 1 with Julia in 11:47, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:52.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 18:34:33

Do you feel ready for TOU. What time are you predicting?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 19:09:30

With a tailwind I may be able to dip a bit under 2:30. Otherwise, probably around 2:32.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.750.750.250.0012.75

A.M. Ran with Jeff this morning. It was supposed to be an uneventful run, but it was not so. The pace was very uneventful due to the darkness and the early hour of the day. The slow pace reduced the clearance between my feet and the ground which is naturally low to begin with, the conversation distracted me from paying attention to the footing, and the darkness compounded the danger. So I clipped a bump in the road and went down.

Got up right away thinking no big deal, a couple of scrapes, and started running. However, a few steps down the road I noticed I started to feel dizzy and uncomfortable, like I could not get enough air, even though I was not hyperventilating. I told Jeff I needed to stop for a minute. He figured out right away what happened and asked me if I had hit the ground with my chest, which I did. He said this had happened to him before once when he was playing freeze tag. At the same time I remembered an incident a few years ago when a hockey player was hit in a chest with a puck and died on the spot due the heart stopping. This gave me a concern, but with Jeff's survival story, and the fact that I was still conscious and able to move and reason, I felt a measure of comfort and confidence that this would turn out to be no big deal. Things got a bit worse for a minute - I felt I needed to lay down, and I felt my heart doing one hard thump, and then an awkward pause. So obeyed my instinct and laid down. Then after about 20 seconds I felt an urge to walk, and I obeyed that instinct as well. After about 10 seconds of walking I felt ready to run. For about a quarter mile I still felt a bit nauseous but after that normal for the rest of the run.

We spent a good portion of the remainder of the run discussing how fast Jeff could have gotten the ambulance to get to that section of the trail. Decided 20 minutes would have been very good. Had this been more serious by that time I would have been having a good time with my relatives in the spirit world.

Dropped Jeff off at 7.25, and went for 3 more. Did a tempo pickup for a mile in 5:37. Could not get going until the last quarter - had the fear of hitting another bump on the trail and that made me too cautious to break 5:40 pace for a while. Finally I overcame that fear and hit a 1:20 quarter.

 Five Fingers - 1362.32 miles

P.M. 1.08 with Julia in 10:29, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 15:04. We took it easy because Benjamin got hurt playing soccer and his shin was hurting.


Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Adam RW on Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 23:36:33

Scary story. Keep that heart beating. You will need it!

From Chad on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:28:12

Watch out for bumps ... and hockey pucks.

From Clay on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:28:55

Real scary story Sasha, I am glad that you are all right:-D

Be safe out there kiddo!

From wheakory on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 12:54:04

God was with you Sasha. I'm glad your okay and safe. Good luck at TOU. Take the next two days easy.

From Chad on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 13:15:30

Yes, have a great race at TOU. I don't know how you bounce back from races the way you do, but it's a real gift.

I hope your fall leaves no lingering effects. Glad you're ok.

From Michelle N. on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 13:54:58

You know, a teenage cheerleader died a few years ago in the same way. She was a flyer and came down from a toss and was caught on her stomach rather than her back and that was all it took. Although, through an autopsy they found she had an undetected heart defect. I was nervous about this because I have a cute daughter that is a flyer. Glad you're okay.

From haynes on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 21:57:20

What those people died of is called commotio cordis (literally concussion of the heart). You have to be hit at a precise time in your cardiac cycle and congenital heart defects increase the chances. If this happens it is much better to perform CPR immediately than to race to get paramedics. Seconds count. What you experienced was orthostatic hypotension (low blood pressure when standing) which can make you dizzy and even pass out. Getting to the ground was the right thing to do. This happens often after falls (it happened to me after a bike accident and I did pass out) and the like because a surge of adrenaline ups your heart rate and your baroreceptors (pressure detectors) detect the increase blood pressure and cause an even greater parasympathetic surge that causes the low BP and nausea. If you had not gotten to the ground it is likely that you would have met the ground unconscious anyway (which sometimes causes other injuries).

From haynes on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 22:12:59

sorry, commotio cordis is commotion of the heart, not concussion. Makes sense.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 23:25:51

Haynes - thanks for the explanation. Good to get some insight from a medical student.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.500.001.000.0012.50

A.M. Ran with Tyler and Derek. Tyler asked me about the conflict between Russia and Georgia. That got me thinking about my repertoire of Georgian/Russian interaction jokes, and they heard a couple. Then I went on to Brezhnev jokes. Then it was time for the fast mile.

We ran it from mile 3Derek ran it with me. We did 81, 78, 78, 79 - 5:16.5. I felt strong, did not have to focus so hard on maintaining the pace, felt like I could probably hit the first half of TOU in 1:10-1:11 with favorable winds in the canyon.

Dropped them off a 7 and ran another 3.

Five Fingers - 1372.32 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:38, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:10. 

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Rivertonpaul on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 17:25:16

I'm looking forward to your run at TOU. I'm still hoping to drive with you to St. George, as well.

From James W on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 18:05:25

How are the five fingers holding up? Still have tread left in them?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 20:10:10

James - yes, they are still OK, somewhat. Only one hole so far and it has not been getting bigger.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.250.251.000.0010.50

A.M. Ran 8 miles alone. Did my taper cramp prevention/neural drive test mile in 5:19.8. Ran it from 3 to 4 of the 5 mile tempo course. Splits were 79, 81, 79, 80. Felt OK, but not great. However, was holding 5:20 pace without too much struggle, and no sour legs. Just did not have the zap and neighing horses. Decided to do a quarter at marathon pace effort. Ran it from 200 to go to 200 past finish on the tempo course. This involves a sharp uphill curve coming from under the bridge under Geneva road. Thought from the zap feedback in the legs that I was headed for about 87-88, but was pleasantly surprised to see 84.6.

Jogged home, and ran a mile with Julia in 10:46.

P.M.  1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:15.


T4 Racer - 590.53 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 13:45:03

I think with you get a decent tail wind you might be around 2:28, or do you not feel ready for that time? Any heavy competition for you this year? Any Kenyans?

From paul on Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 13:55:01

Could be interesting weather this year - chance of thunderstorms throughout the day tomorrow. To me, unsettled weather means no guaranteed tailwind, and headwind is possible. But on the other hand, who can predict the weather?

From Greg Harris on Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 14:38:53

Sasha,

I have heard from several bloggers that you are the best race time predictor out there. I used the Race Predictor tool and put in my Bryce Canyon half time to get a SGM time of 2:36-2:37. Do you think that sounds about right for a good goal for me, or should I aim lower. Thanks

Race: Top of Utah Marathon (26.22 Miles) 02:33:47, Place overall: 3
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
5.3026.220.000.0031.52

A.M. Quick report. Top of Utah Marathon 2:33:47, 3rd place behind Ezekiel Ruto (2:22:57), and Nick McCombs (2:28:42), who incidentally ran the exact same time I did last year, except last year we had good tail wind, but this year we did not. $250, back in the top 3 and real money (as opposed to $50 age division consolation cash). Nothing special I did this time except come to the race fit to run reasonably fast. Last year I put on a better performance, but it was not good enough. So in a way I cashed out on it this year.

The run put me in the 10 year TOU club which consists of only 16 people. In those 10 years I won twice, took one second place, four thirds, one fourth, and two fifths. My average time has been 2:34:02 with 2:27:46 being the fastest, and 2:39:12 the slowest. My average place has been third, exactly 3.0. So I suppose today was as close to average as I could get. An interesting way to celebrate the tenth anniversary of running the race.

Drove up alone in my Fast Running Van (Dogde Ram CNG). It was cheaper to drive than Zhu (Ford Escort Wagon). The whole trip from Provo to Logan and back cost me around $14. Stayed at Hotel de Petersen, my usual lodging place in Logan, thanks Paul and Stacey.

Ran a short warm-up to the bus, and some more to shake up the bowels at the start, total of about 1.5. For stretching climbed the fence several times. This was going to be a multiple star race, according to Paul's recent definition.

The temperature was great, maybe only too humid. The wind in the canyon was a mild head/cross. So I knew from experience we were headed for non-spectacular times, maybe 2:31 for me if I was on top of the game, 2:32-2:33 otherwise.

Ezekiel Ruto took off and was gone. His first mile must have been around 5:00. I figured he was going after the sub-2:20 bonus and the course record. He would have needed a break though to pull it off today. So I figured maybe it is good that he is gone so fast, maybe he'd come back. But the hopes were slim. At least slimmer for me than for Nick. I had to worry about not coming back myself to a possible dark horse to keep my money.

First mile was 5:31, then 5:40, then 5:30, 5:34, and 5:36 - 27:51 at 5 miles. The effort was the same. I was running with Nick, Eric Held, and our blogger Steve Cuttitta. Steve dropped back after about the first mile. Eric stayed with us until around mile 7. We chatted some. Nick and I showed Eric the backs of our shirt for the FRB commercial. Let's hope the effort was not wasted.

Mile 6 was 5:39, 34:42 at 10 K. The pace feels just right, although the splits are quite slow. That's OK, who cares.

The subsequent mile markers, at least some of them were in the wrong place. The pace was very steady, but the splits were very odd. Nevertheless we hit mile 10 in 55:36, 13 in 1:12:58, and made it to the half in 1:13:34. Next two miles were good - 5:29, and 5:35, 1:24:04 at 15. However, I started losing steam and lost contact with Nick at the aid stations at 15. This did not bother me too much since I was doing my best. I decided there is no such thing as a slow or a bad split in a race if that was your true honest best that day. Maybe slower than you expected, but you need to learn to be sufficiently humble to take what your body gives you and not get depressed.

Next two miles were all right - 5:51 and 5:50. Nick gapped me by 22 seconds. Then mile 18 in 5:54, and now Nick is 40 seconds ahead. How did he do that?

Now the hills. Next mile in 6:13. Not great but acceptable. Followed by 6:19. Now that was very non-spectacular, but that's what the body gave me.

1:54:10 at 20. Nick was around 1:52:50. Not surprising, as slow as I was running he should be gapping me fast.

Hoped to run 5:55 on the next downhill (1%) mile. 6:06 instead. 2:00:16 at 21. OK, here comes Kot Bayun, a cat from Russian fairy tales that disables its would-be attackers by putting them to sleep with magic. I'll be fighting him for the next 5 miles. Next 5 miles are rolling, no net elevation drop, lots of turns. Bad place to have Kot Bayun around.

Let's see if I can get Bayun off my back with a surge. Try running hard for one minute. No, does not work. He has a death grip on me. I am feeling OK, but the legs just do not want to move. I try to move them quicker only to be lulled by the soothing songs of my enemy Bayun. It feels like a dream when you try to run away from danger, you are not tired, but for the life of you you cannot move your legs.

Saw Paul, Cody, and Jon on their way to pickup and escort Andy. Next two miles in 6:30 each. 2:13:16 at 23. This is embarrassing. At least not as bad as in 2005 when I was slower than 7:00 on the downhill mile. Got a short outburst of rain. I liked it for 10 seconds, then I did not like it any more. However it seemed to shake Bayun up a little bit. Maybe in St. George I should ask somebody to stand at the top of the Winchester hill with a twig, or better, some freshly picked nettles, and whip me.

Did not feel power loss on the uphill at the end of mile 25. That is a good sign. Missed my splits at 24 and 25, 26 miles in 2:32:30, 6:24.7 average. OK, now press hard, break 2:34, beat the 40:00 guy for the last 10 K, in general minimize the bummer. As I was coming in through the chute they announced, and I remembered that I had this race 10 times by now, and I also remembered that my worst performance both in terms of time and place had been 2:39:12 for 5th (2005). That put things in perspective, and cheered me up a bit.

1:17 for the kick, 5:52 pace, not bad for the uphill with Bayun on the back.

Life after death:

Walked around a bit, chatted with Nick, drank some Gatorade, ate a banana, then started walking towards Paul's house. Realized it would be a long walk, so I started jogging. Cheered Steve Cuttitta, Albert Wint, and Eric Held as they were finishing. Great race for Albert - 2:42:25, a new PR. Albert has a challenge. He is missing a flap in his aortic valve. Shows that a respectable marathon is possible even with a bad heart. Eric PR'ed as well, and was the first finisher from Logan, hopefully a treadmill for him if NordicTrack did not back out.

Then cheered Ben VanBeekum and Bill Cobler. Jason Shoenfield was right behind Bill, so I used that to scare Bill into a good kick. Jogging started to feel better, the back was a bit stiff at first, but then I warmed it up. Saw Andy being escorted by the crew, considered joining them, but felt too lazy, too wet, and too anxious to get changed.

My watch was still going. Got to Paul's house about 2:56 into the race, and a devious plan entered my mind. I wanted to qualify for Boston! I will be clocked by the time I get out of the shower. I've qualified before (Rocket City 2003) by the time I was driving, but I did not shower then. And I did not have to run very far to get changed - my clothes were at the finish, and I changed in the bathroom of a nearby hotel. And I did not shower. My time then was 3:02 (2:37:25 in the actual race), did not get the seconds. The reason for the hurry was that I needed to get to the airport. So this one would be a lot more challenging, I like long showers, especially after a marathon.

So I hurried as fast as I could, and made it out of the shower by 3:05:37. I even beat my first marathon time (3:05:51). Another challenge. Can I BQ by the time I am driving? Hurried again, gathered my stuff as quick as I could, and ran out to the van. 3:09:33.

I was up for another challenge. I remembered than now that I am 35 they give me extra 5 minutes to qualify. Well, if they give that, I am not going to waste it. Decided to try to BQ by the time I pull up to the pump at LW's gas station. A small traffic jam and a couple of red lights made it a real challenge, but I made it by 3:15:53.

T4 Racer - 619.05 miles

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:45, 2 with Benjamin in 17:44, Jenny ran the last 1.5 in 13:16.

Night Sleep Time: 6.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.75
Comments
From leslie on Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 20:13:21

Congratulations on great race!!

From Jon on Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 22:37:08

Congrats on the race! Interesting statistics of your history with the race and on joining the 10 year club- it says a lot about your consistency that you have always been top 5.

By the way, you wrote TOU 1/2 in the title.

From JulieC on Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 22:52:16

What is a good way to get a PR at TOU? My friends are disappointed to not qualify for Boston with this race. I ran it in 1999 and barely qualified. It seems that just about everyone (except speedies like yourself) lose pace at 20 miles. I know it is flat there but how do you overcome this problem? Also is the elevation more significant than here or St. George? I am glad to be running St. George but it would be nice to be strong enough to pull off a good run at TOU some year.

From RivertonPaul on Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 23:06:24

Congrats on a nice race. I promoted the blog with a number of people, hope they sign up.

From wheakory on Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 02:03:45

Great race Sasha, and earning the money. You'll be ready for SGM. Probably with a decent tailwind you could have gotten a 2:30.

From Teena on Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 22:09:00

As always ... FANTASTIC RACE!!

From jtshad on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 07:08:34

Congrats on a strong race once again.

From Lucia on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 09:16:05

Excellent race Sasha, congratulations! Those $250 will go a long way in improving the website ;)

From Cuttitta on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:35:03

I was the dark horse.

Too bad I was 8 minutes back. Nice race Sasha, sometime we will meet up and run.

Steve

From luzylew on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 14:02:03

Happy TOU 10th anniversary! What a great milestone to be able to count back so many years of consistant success. You're Amazing Sasha!

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 17:40:13

Everybody - thanks for the cheers.

Julie - you can PR in TOU in two cases - a) you are in better shape, and b) your last PR was set on a slower course. If your PR was set in St. George, you have only one option - a), and it needs to be a very strong a) especially on the day with no tailwind like this year. If it was set in Ogden, b) is an option when there is a strong tailwind the entire way out of the canyon. If it was set in London, Berlin, or Chicago on an ideal day, your only option is a) regardless of the tailwind. If it was set in Boston, Richmond, or St. Jude, and there is no tailwind, your option is still a).

Bottom line - when you are not fit, no strategy will lead you to a PR. When you are fit, your body will find the strategy.

It is not just the mid-pack runners that lose it in the last 8 miles. Of the top 5 men, only Nick McCombs and Albert Wint ran a 2 minute or less positive split. Here is the data: Ezekiel Ruto 1:08:43/1:14:14 (+5:31), Nick McCombs 1:13:34/1:15:08(+1:34), me 1:13:34/1:20:13 (+6:31), Steve Cuttitta 1:16:59/1:24:50 (+7:49), Albert Wint 1:19:52/1:22:32 (+2:30).

Historically, very few people who finished in the top 5 have been able to run a less than 2 minute positive split, and I would say on average you would see 5-7 minute positive split in that group.

From JulieC on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 22:58:00

Thanks Sasha. After reading it a few times I caught on to what you were saying with all the a's and b's. I will opt for being more fit. Great run for you. Keep it up!!!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Caught up on sleep. A neighbor knocked on our door and wanted to come to church with us. So we took him. It was his first time since he was 11. He had a good time.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 11.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.710.000.500.0015.21

A.M. Easy 10.1 this morning in 1:14:51. Was supposed to have 4 training partners, but none showed up. I told Sarah this is exactly why I can win money in marathons. If everybody I ever invited to run with me showed up every time to train, and then showed up at a race, I'd have no chance without some serious Quality X fixes.

Legs felt slightly stale, but the neural drive was good. Around 6 miles into the run I heard neighing horses and decided to let them loose until they stopped neighing, but no longer than half a mile. Ran a quarter in 81 followed by 79, 2:40 for 0.5. They were still neighing to go more, but I told them to be quiet. The breathing was energetic. The legs were slightly stale but not sour. I heard that the Eskimos have 50 different words for snow. Well, runners should have about as many words to describe different feelings during a run. If everybody ran a lot, maybe the vocabulary would be richer, but for now I have to settle for inventing my own terms - stale, sour, snappy, zappy, energetic breathing, attacked by Kot Bayun, etc.

P.M. 1.06 with Julia in 11:15, 2 with Benjamin in 17:50, Jenny joined for the first 1.5 in 13:18. Swimming at Provo Rec, then ran back (2.05 in 15:54). 

Five Fingers - 1387.53 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From Daniel on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 20:04:58

Sorry I didn't show up this morning. I was up late. Good job on the marathon the other day though.

From Scott Zincone on Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 20:18:11

You did just run a marathon 2 days ago. Perhaps that is why you got to expand your vocabulary today.

From sarah on Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 09:15:06

It is also how you got me to marry you..you kept showing up. love ya

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.021.004.000.0016.02

A.M. Ran with Tyler and Derek. Total of 12 miles. Did a 5 mile tempo alone on my standard course after 5.38 warm-up. Splits: 5:44 - 5:38 - 5:43 - 5:42 - 5:43. Total time 28:30, out in 14:12, back in 14:18. No staleness in the muscles, but some serious issues with the neural drive. In the last 3 miles the legs utterly refused to run any faster than 5:42 pace. Kot Bayun had his day and kept me under his spell. Probably still out of fuel from the marathon. Total time for 12 miles was 1:21:29.

Immediately afterwards added 2 with Benjamin in 17:15.

I wish I could run a marathon so that I would not be able to run for a week afterwards. Why? Because it would be 2:10.

T4 Racer - 633.05 miles

A.M-2: 1.52 with Jenny in 15:08 with Julia running the first 1.02 in 10:41.

P.M. 0.5 to Steve's Crest to get the Fast Running Van. It had a problem with power windows that got fixed under warranty.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.100.000.000.0016.10

A.M. 12 miles in 1:31:49. First 7 with Tyler, Jeff, and Derek. Quite a crew for 5:15 AM.

Thought of the day - you have to have a license to fish, and to drive, but you do not have to have one to buy alcohol. Even in the Soviet Union, an exceptionally bureaucratic state (wow managed to spell this one right on the first try, and just thought of a mnemonic rule to remember - if you pronounce it phonetically, the first part sounds like the Spanish word burro which means donkey, so bureaucratic = ruled by a donkey, easy to remember), you had to get a medical certificate to run a 10 K, but you did not have to have anything except money to buy vodka.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:59, 1.5 with Jenny in 12:42. Matt joined us have way through. Then 1.5 more with Matt in 11:56. Pushed Jacob for the entire run. Benjamin did not run - injured from soccer. He was supposed to run the BYU Triple Crown Mile, but was unfortunately side lined. We decided from now on we would play soccer in a less formal arrangement - just friends and family.

Five Fingers - 1403.63 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From paul on Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 14:17:19

Thank goodness for Firefox spell check. But it has made me very lazy.

You also do not need a license to have a baby. This was rather scary to me, especially when they sent us home 2 days later without a manual, warranty, or any training.

From RivertonPaul on Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 15:22:18

Here is a link (copy and past the whole thing) of a picture of you finishing TOU I took from a screen capture:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30864837@N08/2885872670/

original is number 32 at http://www.hjnews.com/photography/2008/09/20/top-of-utah-marathon/

AndyB pointed these out. You may already know about it.

From wheakory on Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 15:45:04

Don't forget a license to hunt as well, even for gun use you have to have a permit. But alcohol nothing, just down right crazy. Anyone can get a fake ID and past their age to drink.

Great word for the day "dunamis" meaining POWER.

From cgbooth23 on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 03:09:12

ahhh don't do that to the kid let him play soccer competetively, it is a great game you can play your whole life... and plus there is great soccer history in Russia!

From wheakory on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 11:11:40

I agree with agbooth23 let him play, because it will also improve his running. It's great for fitness too. Who's knows if he's good enjoy in soccer he could get a scholarship.

From Matt on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 13:20:40

Injuries happen in all sports. I coach three soccer teams and I think it has to be the best sport for young kids. As they get older and have more weight and more speed and force injuries do occur at a higher rate.

Of your nontrack athletes soccer players make the best distance runners. When my sister in-law played at the Y after practice she would spend at least an additional hour running every day if not more. I hate to see any child get pigeonholed into anyone sport especially at such a young age. I hope you reconsider and let him continue to play especially if he wants to.

From Jon on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 13:26:54

I played soccer for 12 years and loved it! Injuries happen, can't let it stop you! If everyone who got injured running decided to stop running, there would be almost no runners left.

From paul on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 13:28:28

Not to mention organized sports like soccer, basketball, and others help kids learn teamwork, sportsmanship, "coachability", and other life-long attributes that you just don't get from running.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 13:39:14

He does not want to. I asked him if he wanted to finish the season - he said no. He likes soccer to a point, but not enough to risk being crippled over it.

Plus, his chances of getting a soccer scholarship are very close to zero. He is better than your average sedentary video gamer, but nowhere near the best kids even at the Provo City youth soccer level. His chances of getting a scholarship in distance running are much higher. He is the best in the state among kids his age.

So we'll play other sports, it is good for overall development, but we'll keep it in perspective.

From wheakory on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 13:40:22

I played 13 years of baseball and 5 years of football and it was a blast. It taught me how to work with a team and be a team player. It's good interaction.

From Lucia on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 14:56:01

Interesting thought on the license needs... You also need to go through a whole bunch of requirements/paperwork to get a divorce, and yet you need almost nothing to get married!!!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 15:56:39

With marriage/divorce it is understandable because a broken marriage has some serious social consequences. However, with alcohol consumption vs driving, it is a different story. If we require one to prove that he can drive responsibly, we should also require one to prove that he can consume alcohol responsibly if there is such a thing, in my opinion, the moment you put some in you never know what's going to happen next. But for the sake of the argument, and to bring every one in agreement, let's say there are people in society that are able to consume alcohol responsibly. It goes without argument that we already have a good number that are not able to do so. So I hope everyone agrees in concept that a guy who has a DUI, has been violent under the influence, or applied for welfare because his alcohol abuse made him incapable of holding a job should not be able to buy alcohol. This no more "fun" for him, his "fun" is becoming a danger to society, and he has clearly demonstrated that he is unable to have his "fun" under control. Speaking strictly from the financial point of view, if you are not that type of guy, he is costing you personally a thousand or two a year in taxes, I would imagine. With that in mind, I wonder why we do not have a policy of requiring one to buy a license that would go with a background check before we allow him to purchase alcohol.

One obvious answer is that the guys that would see their taxes lowered while experiencing only a minor inconvenience if none at all are drastically in a minority. Or maybe we do not believe it would lower our taxes.

From paul on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:10:28

I would also like to see there be a license for buying Cheetos. Nay, all junk food that matter. Health problems caused by poor diet and exercise cost us all dearly in insurance premiums. We should regulate everything we can possibly think of us.

"Uh, one bag of Doritos, please"

"Are you under 150 lbs?"

"Uh, yeah."

"Can I see your license and latest chloresterol test?"

From paul on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:11:37

typo: "think of" rather than "think of us". There should be a license for being able to post blog comments.

From Jon on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:28:02

Yup, if he doesn't want to play soccer, then that is his choice. Your blog just made it sound like a unilateral parent decision, not a joint kid-parent decision.

I say tell him to work his brain and go for the academic scholarship! All colleges give those, while many don't do sports scholarships... plus bodies get injured but intellegence is always yours!

From wheakory on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:34:39

Paul - My 4 year old son and daughter's and wife would have a fit if you had to buy a license for cheetos.

Personally, I agree all they are is fried junk with process powder cheese ingredients and tons of oil. I tell them all your eating is nothing but garbage for your belly. But than again I'm just as bad... they should have a Kory license's that says "Kory Wheatley is not allowed to purchase POP anywhere in the United States" maybe that would get rid of my pop addiction. Although, I would probably have it smuggled in from Mexico.

From wheakory on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:38:54

Jon - excellent words of advice. Working for a University I favor the Academic way of achieving. Because you can never get enough education and it will always benefit you.

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:45:29

I'll comment just to get Sasha on the hot discussion list.

From Lucia on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 16:51:18

A no tolerance policy for DUI's sounds fair to me. After all, convicted criminals are not allowed to vote on general elections ever, right?

I'm with Paul on the unhealthy food too. However, some people believe running as much as some of us do is unhealthy too - and their "proof" is in the fact that we often get injured, therefore increasing THEIR medical insurance costs...

From paul on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 17:00:39

Certainly, Lucia. I've probably single-handily raised premiums for Select Health customers! My running license should be revoked for at least 120 days! But on the other hand, I've helped pay for new Porches for my podiatrist, rheumatologist, chiropractor(s), and physical therapists. Keeps the economy hummin' ;-)

Running is pretty healthy, but the kind of running WE do is not. I mean, just look at the mental health alone of most of us... serious ODC. :P

From Tyler on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 17:12:34

That's "OCD," Paul.

From paul on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 17:18:22

he he - good eyes Tyler. Obviously I am going mad.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 18:13:27

Lucia - and there is no way you can keep a DUI offender from buying alcohol if the only thing they check when you do is your age. Common sense dictates that alcohol should not be allowed to purchase without a permit.

From jamck on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 18:40:44

Sasha - For common sense to prevail in a situation like this, you would first have to convince people that doing whatever they want isn't one of our inalienable rights. Until then, I don't think that common sense should dictate anything - most people don't think enough for common sense like yours to actually be common.

From Lucia on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 23:25:54

Sometimes this country seems to put more value on people's "privacy" than on the safety and well being of others. Imagine if you could put a tracking device on serious criminals, like rapists, child molesters, etc. Wouldn't that make things safer? But it'll never happen because of "privacy" issues.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 18:16:59

Lucia:

Actually while serving a mission in Salt Lake City I once talked to a guy who was on probation. He claimed he had a tracking device and the parole officer would page him every time the tracking device reported something odd.

From jtshad on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 17:14:45

To quote: "But for the sake of the argument, and to bring every one in agreement, let's say there are people in society that are able to consume alcohol responsibly. It goes without argument that we already have a good number that are not able to do so."

You have to start off with the presumption that most people do drink responsibly. Then, you can set a subset that do not. You should not preface this the other way around. However, to regulate the responsible people because of the actions of the irresponsible is a course to government control of too many aspects of our lives. Where does it stop, junk food, cigarettes (I breath second hand smoke, therefore you must have a license), religious preferences, etc.

This is a slippery slope you are on...

From Jon on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 17:26:36

I would always rather have more freedoms and be infringed upon (i.e. second hand smoke, drunk drivers, offensive words, etc) rather than not have the freedoms in the first place.

From Lucia on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 17:34:51

It would also be extremely expensive to monitor, police, and prosecute people for all those behaviors - a black market would be created for all those things, no doubt. Much more beneficial could be to spend that money and efforts on educating people about their choices, and perhaps creating incentives for people to lead healthier lives (lower car insurance premiums for people who don't drink, lower medical insurance costs for those who keep their weight down and don't smoke) - we're starting to see something like that, maybe it's something that will grow in the future.

From wheakory on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 17:57:08

This subject is sort of getting wild from one topic to the next. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the bailout.

From Matt on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 17:59:15

Bailout? What bailout? I think you mean the proposed bailout.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 18:12:35

Jon:

I had all of the above freedoms/infringements growing up the Soviet Union. Drunk drivers, just plain drunks roaming the streets, second hand smoke everywhere you go including university classrooms, and plenty of profanity.

No real freedoms, though. Unless the "inalienable right" to drink alcohol can be considered a real freedom worth dying for.

Jeff - I have met A LOT of people in my life that have experienced problems as a direct result of their and/or somebody else's inability to control their alcohol consumption. I do not have to go any further than my neighbor. His mother divorced his father due to the father's alcohol abuse. He is still suffering from the injuries he experienced in a DUI accident in a car driven by one of his drunk friends. He has a DUI of his own, and because of that recently failed a background check when applying for a job. Because of his addition he is unable to support himself or his pregnant girlfriend, and guess who does support them - the government.

We have PLENTY people who are unable to control their drinking, more than you think. If you do not believe me, try this. Pick an average neighborhood near your home. Visit as many people as you can and try to get to know as many people as you can well enough so they will tell you their life story in truth. This will be quite an eye opener.

From wheakory on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 18:15:31

Matt - Of course I meant proposed if there is such a thing.

From jtshad on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 18:38:58

So your sample size is 1? I know plenty of folks (in my neighborhood and beyond) who drink responsibly (sample size significantly more than 1). If you are against drinking alcohol, that is fine - don't do it. But don't put your morals in front of mine and say the someone should regulate my choices. I know of many people who have been injured, for the sake of your argument, in car accidents that had nothing to do with alcohol. Should we regulate if you can listen to the radio in the car? Have a conversation in a car? How about making it a law that you can't drive unless you have had 8 hours of sleep? I would have to walk to work everyday!

If your neighbor failed a background check for a job because of a conviction on his record, that is a consequence of his actions. There are other jobs to be had that don't required a background check that he could also apply for. However, that is not a reason to regulate my desire to have a beer in a responsible fashion!

Again, this is not about just alcohol, but if you start here, the floodgates can and WILL open to regulation of other aspects of our lives. Think McCarthism, that is a great model for government regulation of our freedoms!

Cheers!

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 19:02:59

Lucia:

The system of alcohol consumption licensing would not be hard to implement on top of the already existing infrastructure. All you need is to print a strip with a bar code. You'd be able to apply for it online and receive the code once you pass the background check. Places that sell alcohol will need to have a bar code scanner and an internet connection. The clerk scans the bar code, the remote application retrieves a picture of the person's ID document to make sure the face matches. With a background check API available AskSasha.Com could build the web system for under $5K.

As far as making sure things do not happen under the table, it is no different from what we have for selling alcohol to minors.

I find it interesting that the argument of "difficult to enforce" is rarely used for abolishing speed limits and other traffic laws. And how the fact that if you are 1 mph over the speed limit you could in theory (and sometimes in practice) get a ticket does not make too many people think their rights are being violated but the moment you mention alcohol it is a different story.

Why?

Jon, Jeff - what are your thoughts on the increased security at the airports? Most people that fly do not want to blow up or highjack a plane. But when flying we are OK with the idea that the security agents assume that one of us could possibly have plans to do it, and do not feel any of the inalienable rights have been violated, at least not enough to raise a commotion sufficient to change the law. If you do number_of_deaths_per_incident times probability_of_deadly_outcome, it is not immediately clear which one will be higher - the air travel or the purchase of alcohol. One could make a strong argument that the alcohol number will be higher. But we do not think much about it because alcohol deaths happen one at a time and are always more private, while the deaths from the terror acts are always in the news. Back to the parable of the boiled frog - if you turn up the heat fast, it will notice and jump out, but if you do it slowly, it will not notice and boil to death.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 19:09:55

Jeff:

My sample size is much greater than one. I would say there are at least another 3 households out of about 20 in my block with fairly obvious signs of trouble related to alcohol. Believe me - I know what I am talking about. I've done quite a bit of neighborhood sampling in my life.

From Jon on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 19:12:27

Personally, I think the security at airports is a joke. It is just a show to make us feel safe at great cost/inconvenience. I don't think it does much at all to add to air safety. But that is another story.

Part of life is the risk of being infringed upon. That's life! Preventative education and harsh consequences for infringing on others are ok with me. But I don't think the government or anyone else should limit most aspects of my life. We all have different tolerances for where that limit is, though, as evidenced by Jeff/Sasha.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 19:32:27

Jon - if we live in a democracy, and we still have those safety procedures, then most people must not feel the way you do about it, at least not strongly enough to have changed the law. Why is it that most of us are OK jumping through a bunch of hoops and dealing with numerous restrictions to get on a plane, but at the same time are so vehemently against having to deal with almost any form of inconvenience while buying alcohol?

From Jon on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 22:20:53

Apparently because no one has yet blown up a beer factory, hence the government can't use fear of that as a way of increasing control. Also, because the alcohol must have better lobbyists...

From rachelle on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 22:34:21

Sasha,

I know your a religious man and you love the Lord but what you are saying is real close to what the Bible says about the mark of the beast although you are saying put the information on a paper it would be the next step closer to putting the chip in your head hand or whatever I am not a drinker but that just does not seem right either way it would be wrong. And another thing if a parent allows the child to drop out of a team sport is that telling the child that the team doesn't matter it is a team sport and they should have to support the team until the end.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 23:15:07

Rachelle - this would not be any different that wearing a bib number in a race, having an SSN number, a driver's license number, a credit card number, or some other form of ID that we are required to use to receive certain benefits or services. The mark of the beast discussed in the Book of Revelations is symbolic. In my opinion it refers to engaging in activities associated with evil and the symbols associated with those activities, e.g a tattoo identifying you as a gang member, not to methods we use to identify people to perform worthwhile activities more efficiently.

From rachelle on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 23:32:49

Sasha

Very good insite what you said is true but the way technology is going it could easily happen. On the other hand I know you are a determined father but what about making our children finish what they start, If your son hurt his knee in soccer than wouldn't making him run hurt it also, so what about making him go and support his team anyway he did sign up for it.

From James W on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 23:47:38

Quick comment regarding drinking and driving and deaths - Lybi did a quick bit of research, and over 140,000 people die each year from alcohol-related injuries. Arizona actually has some of the toughest DUI laws in the country. 1. If you receive a misdemeanor DUI, you will go to jail for up to 10 days and your license may be suspended for 90 days. 2. For the second offense, 90 days in jail, license is suspended for a full year, and you are required to have (and pay for) an ignition interlock device installed, which requires you to breath in it just to start the vehicle, and then at random intervals while driving. 3. For extreme DUI (b.a.c. over 0.15), 30 days in jail, license suspended for 90 days, and you must pay for an ignition interlock device to be installed. 4. Second extreme DUI, 120 days in jail, lose your license for a year, ignition interlock. 5. Felony DUI, up to 10 years in prison, lose your license for 5 years, up to $150,000 in fines, etc. In addition, if an officer asks to administer a field sobriety test (including breathalyzer or other) and you refuse, you will be arrested and automatically lose your license for 1 year.

My take on this - there is only so much you can do before you start to take away everyone's freedom. And ultimately, God has given us our agency. Some choose to use that agency wisely and make good choices, others do not. We cannot force others to adhere to our beliefs, we cannot force someone to drink responsibly, nor can we force them to not drink and drive. We can administer consequences if they are caught doing so, for the safety of the general public. Keep in mind, it was Satan's plan to take away our agency so that we would not make mistakes. Making choices is part of life. We must have agency so that we can learn and grow. Some make foolish choices and unfortunately their choices may have disastrous effects on others, as evidenced by the extremely high number of alcohol-related deaths each year. Ultimately, we all have to live with the consequences of our choices and actions. We can't just take everyone's agency away.

From Jason McK on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 00:20:19

What Sasha is suggesting isn't taking anyone's freedom away. Anyone can still consume alcohol, it's just much more difficult. His suggestion isn't any different than a driver's license. Prove you can drive/drink responsibly and you can continue. Just because something is allowed now doesn't make it a right, and just because someone suggests changing it doesn't mean they are against freedom or agency. Most importantly, when talking about drinking, who's freedom is more important: the drunk driver, or the person in the other car? Granted - the drunk driver is breaking the law, but the first beer was legal, so was the second, and probably the third, but the judgment is clouded and as far as the drinker knows, he's not any more impaired than when he started and isn't breaking any laws.

God gave us our agency, but he also has laws and consequences. Suggesting some structure to laws isn't being like Satan - that argument has been used over and over against religious people. This issue isn't necessarily about religious beliefs and just because someone is religious doesn't make every argument based on religious beliefs, nor does it make their argument any less valid.

From James W on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:02:24

I didn't mean to say that drinking alcohol was a right, nor that there shouldn't be additonal structure around drinking. After all, for many other such activities, as has already been pointed out, one must obtain a license. I do have to say though, I find it would be incredibly hard to enforce. All a drinker without a "license" would have to do is to ask a friend to buy the alcohol for him/her. Ah well, I jumped into the conversation late, and did a poor job of making my point. That's what happens when I try and respond to something late in the evening . . .

From jtshad on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:11:59

Why not just reinstate prohibition if you think that drinking alcohol is such a bad thing...yeah that worked out great and led to a much better society. As Lucia indicated, over-regulation can lead to driving actions underground/blackmarketing. How much mob violation was related to the prohibition of alcohol as compared to drinking related deaths at the time.

Your assumption is that all people who drink have a tendency to be drunks, and therefore may drive and kill/hurt someone. So, if you meet a white guy who is has racial tendancies, does that make all white guys redneck bigots?

I too know what I am talking about and most if not all of the people with whom I share a drink do so responsibly. It is already illegal to drive under the influence, but making regulation IF I can have a drink to therefore KEEP me from driving is not a practical step to take. States are currently making laws to keep people from texting while driving, do you therefore suggest you must have a license to own a cell phone?

From Jason McK on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:41:25

No, you shouldn't need a license to own a cell phone. The license you need is a driver's license, and if you abuse that 'right', say, by texting while driving, it wouldn't seem extreme to remove some of your driving privileges. Texting isn't dangerous, even if you're irresponsible about it, you're only going to embarrass yourself or offend someone. Driving isn't dangerous, but driving while distracted (irresponsibly) is. Drinking (responsibly) doesn't harm any one, but drinking irresponsibly may.

From jtshad on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:51:35

My point exactly. Therefore, how would requiring a license to purchase alcohol rectify the DUI problem? It wouldn't.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:03:28

Jeff - I would not be opposed to having a background check before receiving a cell phone. If you have a prior traffic violation related to the use of a cell phone, there will be a waiting period before you can use one. You just need a well-implemented database that ties your SSN to traffic violations. Then it is just one query - will cost next to nothing, and will make people think twice before they text while driving.

Regarding my proposed system - you already have to present an ID when buying alcohol anyway. The only thing you would have to do different is a) submit a one-time application online b) print a strip and attach it to the back of your driver's license. That and do not DUI, beat people up when drunk, or apply for welfare. If you are a true responsible drinker, then nothing changes for you except some minor one-time inconvenience. However, for you and everybody else who either drinks responsibly or does not drink at all this would translate into an annual tax credit of about $1K (rough estimate). Would you be willing to do it on those terms?

Rachelle - I am not going to encourage my child to play a game that is to him of secondary importance if he is concerned about the risk of injury. If he had invested a lot of time into soccer, really looked forward to becoming a soccer star, and were showing some serious talent, we would have a talk about perseverance. As far as supporting the team, the games are rather informal. Nobody except coaches, players, and some parents keeps a score, and it is never officially recorded or reported. There is no championship to be won, or anything like that.

From Jason McK on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:27:16

jtshad - How does "my point exactly" apply? If that was your point, why doesn't anything that you've written resemble the comments preceeding "my point exactly"? The way I see this, it about "irresponsibility" harming others lives, physically. DUI's are indicators that someone isn't acting responsibly after drinking. Most people who drive drive responsibly, but we still have a driver's license program to protect everyone... Whether or not it's worth the cost to implement it or not, well, I don't know.

From jtshad on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:34:18

You indicated that the driver's license is the regualtion that controls the "privileges" for driving, which is correct. Licensing alcohol purchase makes no more sense than licensing cell phones to stop irresponsible driving. If someone has acted irresponsibly and has been convicted of a DUI, take away their driving privileges, don't regulate other's who responsibly partaker of a beer.

From paul on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:39:09

wow what a vigorous debate. It's too bad that Sasha is not king of the U.S.A., nor is policy created on this blog.

In any case, thank goodness for home-brewing!

From Jason McK on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:46:20

jtshad - I see. I guess the problem to me isn't a driving problem (nor is it a drinking problem). It's an impairment problem. How do you regulate someone who is impaired? If they weren't impaired when they started whatever got them impaired (drugs, alcohol, being awake, working too hard, bad luck, or whatever) then you shouldn't assume that they will automatically become impaired by doing it and shouldn't need to regulate it. Unless a very high percentage of people doing the same activity do become impaired - certain drugs and workaholics (clearly not in their right mind.)

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 13:11:10

Actually I see some benefits in taking away the alcohol purchase license and allowing the person to keep the driver's license if convicted of DUI. I am thinking of somebody living near poverty level - a realistic scenario. He has a job that does not pay very much to begin with, and he is wasting a lot of money on alcohol on top of it already. You take away his driver's license, and he now has a difficult time getting to work. This will likely push him over the limit, and he would either quit his job or be fired. Now he is on welfare. His choice you may say, but unfortunately our taxes to pay for it. You help him restrict his alcohol consumption by making it difficult, but let him get to work. He has been punished, his capability to offend has been restricted, and he is still working, and not drawing welfare.

Regarding how common it is to have a DUI. I lived in 4 places in Provo in the last 11 years. In 2 of them I had a neighbor within 0.1 mile radius who had revealed to me the fact that he had a DUI conviction. The other two places - in the first I lived only a few months and had not taken the time to get to know my neighbors. The second was BYU married housing. Random luck? I doubt it.

I wonder what would have happened after Sept. 11 if President Bush had said - "This has been a minor nuisance compared to some other problems we are having in this country. We will not go to war until we have cut alcohol related deaths in half."

From Michelle N. on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 14:40:07

I really didn't want to get in on this one but I have to say, OH MY!!! If the drunks want to get alcohol, they'll find a way. I was a wild teenager that did way too much drinking under age and I had NO problem getting alcohol when I wanted it. It is like Paul said, home brewing is an option along with other options. Taking away someones ability to purchase alcohol will not fix the problem. Educating is the only solution along with stricter jail time and probation. If it isn't alcohol, it could be prescription and over-the-counter meds. I don't know about others but 1 Benedryl (for allergies) knocks me out. They have restricted some OTC prescriptions but everyone reacts differently to things. I know people that get loopy from Ibuprofin. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 15:47:12

Michelle:

I consider restricting access as part of education. For example, what if I said just because my children could with some effort if they really wanted to obtain marijuana, to spare them the effort and to avoid violating their right to choose I'd better store some at the house? I'll still teach them it is bad, but I'll have some at the house just in case. After all, then they do not have to go and risk their lives to get it - who knows what the drug dealer might do to them if they do not have enough money to pay, etc.

How effective will my teaching be then?

From jtshad on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 15:55:51

Government regulation and taking away ALL people's liberties does not make a person or people in general responsible and is not a sustitute for education and counseling if someone has a problem.

So, in your mind it is like this:

Alcohol consumption = welfare and welfare = alcohol consumption? You have just alienated many good folks who like to drive and many hard working folks on welfare who do not drink or abuse alcohol.

From Michelle N. on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:01:09

I agree Sasha. I was raised in an LDS home and I am now actively LDS and don't drink but what I am saying is it isn't hard for people to get alcohol and it would take more than just restricting purchase. They would have many other ways to obtain it. I guess my point is, as long as alcohol is legal period, really anyone has access to it, whether or not they are of age or have a license or whatever. It wouldn't be as simple as a permit to buy it.

From Lucia on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:01:20

Sasha,

While I wouldn't oppose to restricting access to alcohol, it doesn't seem like it would fix the current problems. In Argentina pretty much anyone can buy alcohol. Since I was six years old, my dad would give me or my sisters money to go to the supermarket to get him a bottle of wine with the milk and bread for the day. None of us has developed any problems with alcohol, and Argentina doesn't have more or less problems with drunk driving than the U.S., even though our laws are a lot less strict - I may be wrong in believing that part of it is because it's readily available and therefore not something you are curious about when you're young or something to do to "rebel" from society when you're growing up...

Jeff, I do think that Sasha is onto something bringing up the welfare issue... seeing people pay for real food at the supermarket with food stamps (that we pay for with our taxes) and then go next door to get alcoholic drinks or cigarettes (or any other non-necessary item for that matter) with the little cash they've got does unnerve me...

Still, more government regulation can hardly be a solution to any of these issues.

From Jon on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:11:08

I think Sasha is just carrying on this conversation to try and retake the Longest Thread award from Lybi... :)

As for me, I'm just smiling and laughing at how energetic everyone is. Everyone has a different opinion.

From jtshad on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:12:46

But assuming that alcohol is the root of the welfare issue in the US is not founded either. Is it any less bothersome to see that same person loading up the grocery cart (which is paid for with food stamps) with boxes of Twinkies and have no more nutritional value or "necessity" than a $2 bottle of wine?

I personally know people who live near/at the welfare level that don't have an alcohol problem as the reason, but instead have had other issue or factors in life that have them in their current situation. Alcohol is not the root of evil and suffering in the world. Other areas of our planet, such as Argentina as you mention, don't blame alcohol for the ills of their society. And still others don't allow alcohol consumption and still have the same problems brought up here.

From Lucia on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:35:35

Good point.

Maybe it's because I live in DC and see every day how ridiculously big the government is... but regulating alcohol more would be just as crazy as trying to further regulate what people can buy with food stamps, or whether you can listen to music or use your GPS system while you drive... it has to stop somewhere!

From Tom on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:50:29

There's a quote by Ezra Taft Benson that I've always liked that I think applies to this nice little lively debate.

“The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”

From Michelle N. on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:52:01

Amen Tom. Enough said.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 17:27:16

Let's start with some data:

http://oas.samhsa.gov/nsduh/2k5nsduh/2k5Results.htm

Some interesting quotes:

"In 2005, an estimated 13.0 percent of persons aged 12 or older drove under the influence of alcohol at least once in the past year"

"Slightly more than half of Americans aged 12 or older reported being current drinkers of alcohol in the 2005 survey (51.8 percent)."

So in other words, about 1 out of 4 people who drink at least once a month (survey definition of "current drinker") will at least once a year drive under the influence. So we are not talking about one bad apple here and there.

Changing direction - Tom, I love President Benson's quote. However, we cannot just sit on our hands and hope Christ will take the slums out of the people that cause social problems. Something needs to be done.

Changing direction again - Jeff, I know a lot of people who do not abuse alcohol and receive government welfare too. There are legitimate cases for that. But unfortunately there is a mentality that "well, if it is available and I qualify I should use it", rather than "I will work three jobs if I have to before I go to the government for help." That would be another $1K in taxes (or so), a different non-alcohol related problem.

Another change of direction. Lucia - my knowledge of Argentina is rather limited. I do know, however, that the country had a serious economic crisis fairly recently, and that poverty is quite common. I also do know that people usually immigrate from Argentina to the US, not the other way around. People usually migrate in the direction of reduced social problems and increased opportunity - any thoughts?

From Lucia on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 17:44:35

Sasha,

There is no doubt that the U.S. provides more economic opportunity than Argentina, and there's no welfare benefits provided by the government there either. Although I doubt that Argentina has reliable data on per capita alcohol consumption, I'd be surprised if it was larger than in the U.S. It'd be interesting to see if there is a correlation between alcohol consumption/availability/regulations and poverty/economic opportunity... I'll see what I can find - love a challenge!

From sarah on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 22:17:37

I just have one think to say..re: Jon's last comment. You know Sasha way too well!!

From ali on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 23:26:30

As a police officer of 8 years I have the following comment:

I feel everything that should be done regarding the law should be done with moderation and common sense.

1. There people who drink alcohol and do it responsibly.

2. There are some people who don't.

I propose that we keep the current law as is but add restrictions to those who have broken the law regarding alcohol in the past. For example if I drink and stay in my home and don't disturb anyone I should have a right to do that without a license. Being 21 is the current age of responsibility.

If people failed to abide by the laws that are in place then tougher restrictions should be placed on irresponsible people. That individual could be issued a special license or have special license restrictions(which are already in place).

There are current laws on the Utah Criminal Code which are awesome but are rarely used for alcohol restricted persons.

Lets use what we have on the books first before we impose on others regulations that may not be needed.

Desi L.

From Jon on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 23:27:38

Scary, isn't it, Sarah.

One note- I don't know anyone who has gotten a DUI or is on welfare. Maybe I just don't want to know and prefer to think the best of everyone.

Sasha, how much of your dislike of alcohol comes from growing up in Russia (which is well known for alcohol issues)?

From sarah on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 10:48:11

Okay..my comment last night was night my real comment (yes it is scary Jon..but true...Sasha really isn't too hard to figure)

I have an annoying habit of trying to agree with everyone so here goes...

I agree with what Sasha is saying because it is true that regulating alcohol consumption with a license would help achieve the desired outcome in some people who may drink irresponsibly but may be deterred in doing so if it was illegal.

I also agree that people there are some people who will try and get it even if it is illegal.

On the moral side of it, I think that it is in a way as Tom put it," trying to take a person out of the slums." In fact I brought up that very point with Sasha as we were dozing off last night. I wondered if some rules actually change a person's nature the way the gospel can change a man's nature.

From Lybi on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 11:55:08

I will contribute towards the cause of beating the all-time record of comments.

Jon, you may not know anyone who is on welfare because of alcohol, or has gotten a DUI (that's because they hide it), but you must know people who have suffered the consequences of alcohol abusers. I personally know 3 people who were killed by drunk drivers. Killed. They are just as dead as if it had been a terrorist attack--but with much less press/concern from the government. I also know people who were injured by drunk drivers, and people who were abused by drunk people etc.

Alcohol is a very dangerous drug and is harmful to our society. The laws SHOULD be tougher, more serious. I can't really see a alcohol license working out, just because of the difficulty of enforcing. But the consequences for DUI should be MUCH MUCH stiffer: lower the legal blood limit, slap those people in jail and never let 'em drive again! Take away their license to DRIVE!

From Chad on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 12:44:15

Go Cubs!

From paul on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 12:59:55

Go Brewers!

From wheakory on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 13:05:19

Chad, Paul - you both have it wrong go "DODGERS" my favorite team. Although it wouldn't be bad if Cubs broke the 100 year curse.

From cgbooth23 on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 13:06:09

Go Dodgers!! Dodgers/REd Sox World Series, here it comes!!!!

From Jon on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 13:31:37

Go Broncos!

From Lucia on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 13:34:13

Go San Lorenzo de Almagro!!! :)

From Dustin on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 13:53:44

Finally, something I'm smart enough to comment on.

Go Broncos!

Go Cougars!

Go Cubs. I wonder what the late Cubs announcer Harry Carry's thoughts are on alcohol use. I think he arrived at the game drunk.

Go Fast Running Bloggers!

From paul on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 14:03:19

No one else is rooting for the Brewers? Is that because their alcohol-related mascot? Go Packers, while I'm at. Sausage goes well with beer.

From Dustin on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 14:33:23

Actually Paul, my sister lives in Milwaukee, so I guess I can root for the Brewers. When we were out visiting her this summer I had a butter burger, talk about something that needs regulating. Anyway, I'm glad to see we've got Sasha's going for the Longest Thread Title.

From ali on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 14:35:45

hello...hello..is this on?

From wheakory on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 15:10:52

While were off the alcohol thing go COWBOYS! But TO be quiet and let Romo throw.

I love polish sausage while watching sports and nachos.

From JD on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 15:29:19

Go Rythmic Ballet Athletes!!

Ahem...

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 16:28:08

Jon - I've seen enough to not want to ever try it. I've grown up with a repeatedly incarnated image of a scary looking guy walking along the graph of y=sin(x) as my mom would describe it, signing, swearing, kicking things around, etc. My class consisted mostly of kids from the two types of families. Type A had the father already gone, usually due to drinking. Type B had a father that was drinking. A two-parent home with a sober non-abusive father was an exception, I can only think of a couple.

My neighbor DUI awareness has come up mostly as a result of serving in the Church. Those were not the type of people I would have spent a lot of time with naturally. Without an external push you tend establish friendships with people like yourself, and thus could be very unaware of other social groups. And, as Lybi pointed out, people do not put up "I've been convicted of DUI" sign in their front yard.

Desi L/Ali - nice to hear from somebody with experience in the area. How would it work to impose a restriction on an irresponsible drinker? How will the clerk at the store know to deny the purchase when he is trying to buy alcohol?

Lybi - I think if somebody gets caught DUI we should punish him by keeping him from drinking rather than from driving. Attack the root of the problem. As far as the ability to enforce, it is arguable which one is more difficult. Revoking the driver's license will not keep a determined or just desperate offender from driving his car. But in any case, with some creativity you can always find a way to effectively enforce a law as long as you care to enforce it more than the offender cares to get around the enforcement. "Care" is the key.

From ali on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 22:12:34

Certain restrictions can currently be placed on driver licenses. For example, when someone is caught drinking and driving their driver license is taken and they are given a provisional license until they attend a hearing with the Driver's license division. It would not take much effort to have restrictions placed on the driver's license when they get it back. Every time that person gets pulled over, there is a certain code on their license that states DUI arrests and convictions.

Now everyone above the age of 21 has the right to purchase alcohol. To prohibit someone from purchasing alcohol will do very little. In fact it could create a black market of sorts.

I do want to say Sasha that your point is valid but very difficult to implement without taking away peoples rights to purchase alcohol legally. I know that sounds weird but an alcoholic will get his alcohol no matter what.

Great topic! Its cool to see citizens of our wonderful country be concerned about a serious topic like this.

Desi L.

From sarah on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 22:46:55

Come on guys...just a few more comments to make the all time high!!

Jon- you really don't know anyone on welfare? I guess Sasha and I have known several because we are always trying to get to know our neighbors and since we've never lived in a fancy neighborhood we often have neighbors on welfare.

I think what started this whole discussion was when Sasha and I noticed how although our neighbors are being kicked out of their apartment for not paying rent and seem to have no resources right now they still find a way to buy beer and cigarettes. Where there's a will there's a way I guess.

From Lucia on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 22:58:14

Ok, Sarah, last one before I go to sleep, just for you!

Harder penalties for offenders, even for first-time offenders, like not allowing them to purchase alcohol ever, or not allowing them to drive EVER, would be perfectly fine by me! Asking people to have a license to drink BEFORE even knowing if they're responsible or not is a different story. Sasha's data even indicates that the majority of people, and the majority of people who drink, don't drive drunk. So it would be very cumbersome and expensive to screen all people who want to purchase alcohol; I don't even know how you would make that decision either... And with how easy it would be to get around it, it just doesn't seem to make much sense.

Good night bloggers!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 12:49:55

Desi - I still do not understand how you would keep a DUI offender from purchasing alcohol with the current laws. When they ID you, do they check if your driver's license has a DUI conviction mark?

It seems to me if we wanted to restrict a DUI offender it would be easier to implement a system that keeps him away from alcohol than from a car. You can take away his license, but can you take away his car? Even if you did, you could not take away his spouse's car, and if he needs to get somewhere he will likely take the risk of driving without a license without even thinking twice.

With the alcohol, if you ran the background check when he purchases it at least he would not be able to get it from a store without some assistance from a friend with a clean background. And if buying alcohol for a DUI offender was a crime as well, then whoever buys it for him would have to think twice. This could help some people I've met that described to me their struggles trying to overcome the addiction. They go through alternating periods of being in control and feeling overwhelmed by the addiction. When the craving strikes, if obtaining alcohol is as easy as a drive to the store, they will cave for sure. If it means having to do more than that, the needed extra time and effort might bring them to their senses.

Also from the point of view of freedom and rights. The Declaration of Independence states that the inalienable rights are Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happiness. In that spirit, when punishing an individual for an offense, we want to minimize the restriction of those liberties to the least extent needed and in a way that will enable him and others to enjoy those liberties in the future. Being unable to drive makes it difficult to get to work, library, sports activities, AA meetings, and other places where the offender will have a chance to learn to do better. When we take that away, in my opinion, this punishment has a huge side effect of impeding the offender's ability to not offend again.

Being unable to drink only helps him practice controlling the cravings and experience the clarity of the mind unclouded by the alcohol. I say focus on keeping him away from the booze, not from the driving.

Lucia - 1 out of 4 is not a negligible minority.

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 12:52:21

This discussion lends credence to the Sasha Santa or Sasha Grinch discussion on the forum (in good fun): :)

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 12:52:31

This discussion lends credence to the Sasha Santa or Sasha Grinch discussion on the forum (in good fun): :)

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,657.msg6377.html#msg6377

From marion on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 16:45:28

Since this has so many comments anyway- Sasha, I think you should change your blog photo to the one posted at the top. The one on your blog does not look like you. The Ogden Marathon one, where it looks like you are flying, is a good one too.

Happy debating guys!!!

From paul on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 16:51:55

I have heard Sasha's answers to common questions so many times, that I can answer them for him. In fact, Sasha, if you want to take a week off from the blog, I feel that I can be an adequate substitute for you. Proxy-Sasha or something.

Anyway, Sasha will not remove his current blog photo until he can recreate the fury and raw emotional and physical energy that he had when the current photo was taken (TOU - 2003). He is quite adamant on the subject. Thank you for posting, please come again.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 16:55:28

Marion:

I do not care about the flying part. I did not win Ogden, and I did not run my best race. I do not even care that I am wearing the wrong uniform in the picture. It was a breakthrough race. I after almost two years of disappointments and challenges I found a solution to get to the new level. I PR'ed by over five and a half minutes. I won the race by almost 7 minutes in spite of the $1K prize for first. I was with the trooper from start to finish, and he is in the picture. I will replace it only if I run a better quality time breaking the tape, and with a trooper in the background.

From paul on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 16:57:32

hmmm. I liked my answer better.

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 16:58:17

The photo in your blog looks good and your determined so why change it. It's something that inspired you and motivates you to run that way again every time you see it I'm sure.

My question is you look a lot lighter then (your still skinny now), but how much did you weight in that photo?

From marion on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 17:01:34

I guess that is what makes girls different from boys :) I figured there had to be some sentiment attached to the picture. Just had to unleash the peanut gallery's opinion :D

From Lucia on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 17:18:57

Marion, I was thinking the same thing - with all due respect to Sarah, Sasha looks quite fine in the new photos - just a healthy compliment :)

Back to the debate: Sasha, i'm not sure where you get the 1 out of 4 figure... the website says 13% of people 12 years old or older drive under the influence once a year... that's not 1 in 4.

Moreover, the fact that drinking is so common among younger people (50% of kids 18 to 21) means that even though there are laws and regulations, they are not being enforced and kids are finding ways to get alcohol anyway. Which I think reinforces the point that more regulation on who is allowed to drink or not is not effective.

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 17:23:08

If you didn't note it on the discussion forum, perhaps the Top of Utah photo is not used because of the uncanny resemblance. (All in good fun.)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30864837@N08/2906933361/

From marion on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 17:26:05

Ah ha! I just don't think Sasha (or maybe Sarah) doesn't want anyone to know how good looking he is!

From sarah on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 18:09:47

To really show how good looking Sasha is we'd have to post a close-up of his gorgeous legs!!

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 18:52:10

Lucia - 1 of 4 drinkers drives drunk at least once a year. About 1 out of 8 of everybody drives drunk at least once a year. In other words, if you drink at least once a month, there is a 25% chance that you will drive drunk at least once a year. According to this article

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-20-drunk-driving_N.htm

there were 13,470 DUI deaths in in 2006. That is September 11th times 4, and we get that annually. Not surprising considering the amount of drunk driving we do as a nation.

Regarding the effectiveness of enforcement. I think it is wrong to abandon a law just because it is difficult to enforce. If a law is right, we should do what it takes to enforce it, and not make excuses. Of course, in order for that to happen, we would need to believe that there is such as thing as an absolute right and absolute wrong, but that is a different story.

A properly enforced law will not be broken, and I doubt the underage drinking law is being enforced properly. Question for Desi and other police officers - when you notice a drunk teenager, do you even do anything if he is just drunk and not causing trouble otherwise? If you do, how hard do you question him to find out where he got the alcohol from? If the source comes to your attention, do you go after every offender? What is the punishment for the teenager and the guy that gave him the alcohol when they get busted? Is the punishment serious enough to discourage the repeat offense?

From ali on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 21:11:27

Sasha

If you are under the age of 21 ANY alcohol within your system puts you in violation of the law. The same law applies for possession of alcohol. We try to obtain as much information about how and where they got the alcohol and charge people criminally if we can. If they are outside our jurisdiction then we refer it to that agency. Class B misdemeanor for illegal possession of alcohol. Class A for illegal distribution unless its on a larger scale. The fines are high. I've seen a kid get 3 months in jail for his second offense by a judge. The judge sets the sentence.

Please keep in mind that a police officer could arrest every DUI and every illegal consumption but the judge determines the sentences and the severity of the violation. So please vote in judges who take this stuff very seriously.

Desi L.

From Dallen on Sat, Oct 04, 2008 at 21:36:22

I think I missed the discussion, but I will add my comment anyway.

There is really no difference between what Sasha is suggesting and what is already being done with gun control laws. That vast majority of drinkers and gun owners are law abiding people. However, everyone must get a license to own a gun. Criminals find ways around the law, but we still enforce it because it clearly has positive benefits.

I think that the difference is that a minority of people are gun owners and a large majrity of people drink. I assume that if drinkers ever become a minority then they will be picked on, just like smokers are now.

From Rachel on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 09:44:27

Wow, I thought this was a running blog...

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 15:47:37

Ok, I do not want my discussion to lose steam now that Teena's is catching up :-)

Check out

http://oas.samhsa.gov/nsduh/2k5nsduh/gifs/Fig3-1.gif

Alcohol use in the 18-20 age bracket is about 51% in spite of the legal restrictions. However, once the restriction is removed, it spikes to about 67% in the 21-26 age bracket, and does not drop below 60% until 50-54 age bracket. A likely cause for the drop is that some of the heavy users in their youth never live to be that old.

So it would be fair to say that 16% of the youth do not drink just because it is illegal. The law, even though supposedly easy to break, is not completely useless.

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 15:56:27

However, you statistics show that "current use" becomes a drastically higher percentage of the total. Looking at the 3 categories, this would be the in the repsonsible drinkers category.

From Burt on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:01:14

There's no such thing as responsible drinking. Don't kid yourself.

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:06:23

Burt, come on! I happen to drink responsibly and I am NOT KIDDING MYSELF!

From jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:09:16

hmm, interesting...are there actually a lot of people that agree with Burt's comment?

From Dallen on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:12:14

Sarcasm? Hopefully.

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:13:34

Burt - If Jeff wasn't a responsible drinker don't you think his running would suffer? I've seen him around his family, and have spend a great deal of time with him, and he's one of the most focused at intelligent guys I knew. He's created a balance in his life where not one thing is as important as another.

Your comment is using your fingers without thinking about what your typing.

From JD on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:14:32

Sounds like Burt could use a drink. :-)

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:23:35

"Sounds like Burt could use a drink. :-)

"

:)

Since stones are apparently being thrown, I wonder how many people on the blog are not responsible runners...

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:24:39

By the way, I second Kory's opinion of Jeff.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:38:21

Kory - a lot of times running could suffer without you even knowing it. I've done a lot of things that made my running suffer that I did not realize at the time.

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:57:56

Yeah, the glass of wine that Deena Kastor has with dinner probably caused her foot problems. And that beer that Brian Sell has with his pizza at the Brooks-Hanson Distance Project dinners stopped him from qualifying for the Olympics...oh wait, he did qualify!

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 16:59:39

Sasha - I don't think Jeff's running suffers from drinking, because the way he handles his priorities, balance, and life is very detailed and focused.

I could say the same about my pop intake that it's killing me inside and causing my running to suffer. My pop intake with caffeine could cause me to be a chaotic driver.

I don't drink nor do I want to ever because of my beliefs and up-bringing, but my opinion is that there are people that can handle their drinking and can live a productive, successful and even competitive life.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 17:12:10

Kory - to clarify. I've had two experiences in my racing career when I ran a good race but got beat by a runner who historically finished behind me. When that happens I always ask the runner what he did different. In both cases they attributed their success to eliminating alcohol from their diet.

From sarah on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 17:13:45

I think like Paul, I can speak for Sasha..He probably means that there are some things that can "bring you down without you knowing" to maybe only a slightly lower level so slight that you may not even think it's a lower level. Maybe there is some potential a certain habit or substance is keeping you from meeting...like blogging too much may keep you from becoming that famous author you've always wanted to be...that's something to think about guys!! :) :) :) :) :) :)

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 17:26:13

Sasha - I do understand what your saying. If we could cut down on some nasty habits (those that have them) I'm sure we would see improvements. I'm not arguing with you it's a good discussion.

I should do an experiment and totally quit my pop habit to see if I see an increase in performance.

Sarah your right I'm blogging too much :-)

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 17:27:11

Jeff - there are several factors that affect your running performance. Back in the 1950s a smoker could be competitive in the Boston marathon. Once non-smokers with enough Quality X started to run marathons, a smoker now had no chance. Right now a fairly casual alcohol drinker with enough Quality X can race at a world class level, just like a casual smoker could in the 50s. My prediction, however, is that as the world class performance standard keeps getting pushed we will get to the point that even a casual drinker would not be competitive. He would now have to race guys with equal Quality X that do not drink, and he will have no advantage to compensate for the handicap.

From Dallen on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:19:55

Is there any research out there to show that a little alcohol now and then is detrimental to fitness. Doubtful.

I don't drink, but I suspect that those who do are likely willing to suffer a few seconds off of their running times to enjoy the other aspects of life. Very few runners are so dedicated that they are willing to sacrifice all the other aspects of their lived to achieve their full potential. Unless you are at a truly elite level I doubt it is worth it.

I myself will continue to enjoy my soda, red meat, cheese, extra dessert, and slightly slower marathon times.

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:24:26

I haven't looked but is there a study out there about soda performance gain for a runner that's stopped. I like my caffeine.

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:27:28

October's Runner's World says caffeine has performance benefits, as well as some others online.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:33:11

Dallen, Kory:

Some of the benefit of giving up your favorite questionable substance could very well be physical, but there is another aspect. It is the general power of being able to give up a comfort. When you give up a questionable substance, even when it has zero effect on your physical parameters such as muscle power, glycogen storage, or cardiovascular capabilities you've just taught your body something very important - how to give up comfort on demand and with less hesitation. You'll be able to use it in a race when you need to go into the zone and stay there to get a faster time.

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:38:30

A quote I live by..."Life is too short to drink cheap beer!".

Life it too short to give up "comforts" in life just to get into the zone for a race. I don't define myself just as a runner...but as a father, husband, son, employee, friend, etc. All of these other aspects of my demand, and I enjoy partaking in, "comforts" of some sort.

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:46:41

I agree with Jeff - running is not that important with life. It's your relationship with God that's the most important, and then balancing your family, job and other activities after that priority.

Dallen - I don't drink pop before a race or even a day leading up to a marathon. I don't even drink pop or take caffeine before any of my training runs. I'm like Jeff I drink it at other times, because I like the taste of it. I usually will drink one for lunch and maybe two for dinner, and sometimes other times through-out the day. I love to drink it after a run.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:52:55

So, according to what Sasha says, we should give up all comforts like soft beds, central home heating, and warm showers, all of which are recent inventions that make us soft.

I'm like Dallen, Kory, and Jeff- I try to do my best running, but it is only a part of my life and has to fit in the balance. If I wanted to be the best runner I could, I would quit my job, but then I would not fiscally provide for my family. I would also sleep more, but that would require less time with my family. Life is about balance and priorities.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:54:47

I still think Sasha is carrying on this conversation to take the longest thread from Lybi.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 18:58:20

The power of being able to give up a comfort not only would not interfere with being a husband, a father, a friend, or an employee, but would actually help. In fact, that is one reason I still run. When a vital task needs to be performed that requires giving up of comfort, I can call on what I practice daily in running and perform it with a lesser amount of fuss.

From Ali on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 19:05:07

Didn't Jesus drink fermented grape juice?:)

Moderation is good for everyone. If it is something that is not consuming your life or all you think about than that person is not going to be a menace to society. It is those that are out of control that cause MOST of the problems. Not everyone is going to agree with your beliefs so accept them for who they are and let it go.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 19:08:13

Jon - there is a difference. Certain comforts strengthen your body and mind, while others only weaken. In chess there is a difference between a sacrifice and a blunder. When you sacrifice, you give up a valuable piece and get something better a few moves down the road. When you make a blunder you just lose the piece. A good chess player will not stop at the sacrifice of a queen and two rooks if the end result is checkmating the opponent. But he will not give you as little as a pawn if this means nothing more than losing the piece.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 19:10:31

Sasha, what you are saying is sacrificing a comfort for a brief period ("When a vital task needs to be performed that requires giving up of comfort"), but then it sounds as though you are asking others to permanently give it up. Big difference. I can give up a night with my family, sleep, dinner, etc to help a friend in need. But if I did that EVERY evening, then I ultimately would be failing as a father/husband.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 19:13:10

Good example with chess. I wish life were so straightforward. Instead, it is not always possible to know which "comforts" help and which hinder and which do neither.

From marion on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 19:21:29

That is why we are asked to make the very best choices we can, and NOT judge others.

From rockness18 on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 20:01:32

I hesitate to give my 2 cents...but here it goes...In the book of Proverbs (wisdom) it says something about a little wine being good for the stomach. Jesus himself, according to New Testament Scripture, actually turned water into wine (scholars believe it would have been 70-80% more diluted than today, but nevertheless). At the same time, Scripture says "Don't get drunk on wine which leads to debauchery." Personally, I do not drink, yet for my family it is not a moral issue. Just as strong a case might be made for folks who board an airplane (polluting the environment), drive a car (ditto + more folks are killed by cars each year than guns...and many many car accidents have nothing to do w/alchohol...so why not just jog or ride a bike? we like the convenience), or jog through Central Park or almost any part of LA county (might as well smoke a pack or two). I don't find much personal value in alcohol (although many studies do show value in moderate consumption of wine as well as dark chocolate), I do see much abuse in our culture (as there was in biblical times when Christ ate alongside the "outcasts" and "tax collectors" and "sinners"), yet I refuse to demonize those folks who do drink responsibly (and even the ones who don't). Forgive me if I sound a bit "preachy"...just couldn't resist my two cents worth. Nice discussion!

From JD on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 20:26:45

Aren't there studies that show a glass or two of wine (or beer), can have a positive effect on a persons well being, and even some cardiovascular benefits?

I wonder if the benefits of responsible/moderate consumption outweigh the detriments of this consumption when it comes to running performance...

However, if I were one of the fastest marathoners on the planet, and I were competing with all the other fastest in the world, for a million dollars, and I lost, I would not want to wonder if it was the beer that took the winning edge away.

From ali on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 21:59:43

Now I'm sure Sasha's diet and regiments have helped many people. (I loved oatmeal before you put it on your blog) :)

Sasha is a great example of consistency, discipline, and integrity. There is just one word I would not use to explain Sasha and that is Empathetic.

Its his way or the highway. (hopefully there are no drunks on the highway).

I think everyone here has valid points but there are so many ways to enjoy life.

Desi L.

From jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 23:55:37

Sasha..wouldn't your logic dicate you'd be stronger as a person if you gave up running? You are addicted and it is a comfort for you.

From Jon on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 00:11:15

By the way, that last comment must have been from another Jon. Not Jon Allen (me). One problem with a common name. To the other Jon's, don't forget to put your blog address (i.e. jelmo, jona, etc) in the web address on comments.

From Lybi on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:49:33

I've heard that drinking a little wine everyday has certain health benefits, but not as much as just drinking grape juice for the antioxidants. Alcohol is not good for our bodies. Some people are able to drink it in small enough quantities to be able to avoid causing noticeable damage to their bodies, or lives in general. But I'm not convinced that that means it is completely without vice. There is still the influence of setting a precedent.

Do you guys believe the literature suggesting that some people have genes that make them much more vulnerable to addiction? Like if they try alcohol, they easily become an addict and almost have no choice in the matter? Well, I think I could possibly be one of those people. When I like something, I usually like it TOO much. LUCKILY LUCKILY I will never become an alcoholic or drug addict because I have never and will never try it for the very first time.

But back to the people who drink responsibly...they exist, that is true. But someone with addictive tendencies might be more likely to try alcohol, seeing that it has no detrimental effect on so-and-so. The fact that alcohol affects people differently is part of the menace. If everyone who tried it became a raging alcoholic, it would be easy to make illegal. The "responsible drinkers" make it more complicated, darn them (he he) but the fact is that the overall impact of alcohol on our society is a negative one.

And beer stinks.

From Burt on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 12:36:54

Wow! Just when this topic was dying out, I pipe up with a smart alleck comment and squeeze the proverbial bellows to re-light the fire. Admittedly I made that comment to see what kind of reactions I would get, but there is a little truth to it as I'll explain.

Kory is right. I was typing without thinking, because I knew I should think my argument through before posting. I guess that's not my style. I like to light the firecracker and toss it to see what kind of damage it does first.

So....because I've never drank before, one could make the argument that I don't know what I'm talking about. That's fine but I can't believe that someone would drink alcohol for its refreshing taste and thirst quenching ability. There are plenty of other better tasting liquids out there for that. I mean, the first time you take a drink are you doing it because you're thirsty or are you just trying it? And so I would argue that if you have ever been drunk, ever, you lost the title of "responsible drinker." Don't matter if you were at home alone, out camping in the woods, or in a padded room. You got drunk. You lost control. You can now never be called a responsible drinker again. And heck, you don't even have to be drunk to be an irresponsible drinker.

Is there bias to what I'm saying because of my up bringing? Maybe, but let me tell you about a guy that only had a couple of drinks. That guy took the keys to his vehicle and went for a drive with my sister (certainly they were both irresponsible.) That guy was just buzzed enough to be distracted with the radio knob just enough to veer off the road. That guy didn't have the sense about him to not over correct getting back on that road. That guy flipped his vehicle, put my sister in a coma for a year, and has caused her permanent brain damage.

So, yes, my bias is more than just my up bringing. But hey, that's just me. Nothing you can say can convince me that there is such a thing as responsible drinking now. And to use the vernacular of the peasantry, "Don't be hating."

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 19:57:09

Dave:

Perhaps you may find a brief explanation of the foundation of the LDS belief of no alcohol helpful.

First, we accept the Bible as the word of God to the extent that it is translated correctly. The Bible is a set of revelations received and recorded by the Hebrew prophets. We believe those to be correct, however, we also believe that God continues to speak to man through prophets. Over the the history of mankind there have been periods of relative righteousness when God called prophets, followed by their rejection by the people which resulted in withdrawal of the prophets and a period of subsequent apostasy. We believe that the last period of apostasy lasted from the last Biblical revelation until 1820 when God called a prophet again. His name was Joseph Smith.

Thus, the words of modern day prophets carry the same authority, and even greater relevance than the prophets of old. Just like the words of Paul were more relevant for the early Christians than the words of Moses, and the words of Moses carried more relevance for his people than the words of Adam, the words of modern day prophets carry more relevance for us right now.

Our opposition to alcohol is based on a modern day revelation received by Joseph Smith in 1833 known as the Word of Wisdom. The full text of the revelation is available at

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/89

I find it interesting that is was prefaced with:

"In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation"

That coupled with the fact that the Bible never explicitly prohibits moderate use of alcohol. Interestingly enough, the Book of Mormon (which covers the period from 600 BC to 400 AD) never does so either, and there is one place (Alma 55:32) that suggests that the Nephites, a nation that was following the commandments of God, did not have the Word of Wisdom the way we have it in the last days.

However, the last days are different, and we are being asked to abstain from alcohol completely by a modern day prophet. Which we accept as the will of God for mankind in the last days.

From rockness18 on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 20:41:20

Sasha,

I have studied your religion and respect your personal convictions. No offense intended.

From Burt on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 22:06:01

Not speaking for anyone, but I doubt any offense is being received. If anything, I'm afraid someone might take offense to my opposition to alcohol consumption. I would not stop being someone's friend because they drink, nor would I think any less of them. So I hope no one thinks I'm "holier than thou", but see my above response as to why I don't think anyone should drink. You're right, though. Nice discussion!

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 11:09:04

Dave:

Burt is right. It is against our religion to get offended. Brigham Young is reported to have said at one point that he who gets offended with the offense was not intended is a fool, but he who gets offended when the offense was intended is a fool twice. Recently there was a great talk in General Conference by Elder Bednar on the subject:

http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-646-32,00.html

That said, not everybody even among the active members of the Church practices the principle. Which I why, I suppose, we got the talk.

From rockness18 on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 11:20:15

Sasha,

I never sensed any offense, yet realized my biblical insight (accurate "preaching" for those within the Christian "flock") would be irrelevant to those who hold to Mormon convictions and beliefs. Although our theological convictions have fundamental differences, I appreciate the honest and friendly dialogue.

From Burt on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:27:46

LOL!!! Oh, that's hilarious!! Against our religon! I've never heard it said like that, but I guess it's true. I'm still laughing. What makes it even funnier is that I've never met Sasha, so I picture it being said by a very serious guy with a very thick Russian accent. Tho' I gather that's not the case.

...against our relgion...whew!

From sarah on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:50:03

Sasha can be serious but at heart he's still a goofy Russian school boy minus the accent. He speaks English better than a lot of Americans I know...think My Fair Lady only a man..he does have a distinct way of talking but it isn't Russian..just Sasha...a lot of people have thought he was from Idaho. Do they speak funny up there?

From paul on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:54:25

A little. Mostly they just drive funny.

From JD on Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 13:00:18

Everyone is beautiful...especially long distance runners...

From wheakory on Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 01:30:03

I know if I took one drink of alcohol it would kill me because I can't even handle a Teaspoon of NyQuil it makes me loopy.

Maybe if pop did that to me I would quit drinking it. :-)

From Lucia on Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 22:36:59

Wow, I'm gone for 3 days and have so much to catch up with in here!

For as long as I have use of memory, my dad has enjoyed one or two glasses of wine with dinner. It was never an issue for anyone in my family, he never drove drunk or was violent to anyone. That's responsible drinking.

A big part of being a responsible drinker for me is to know when it's appropriate to drink, and how much. Responsible drinkers know when to stop, period! I don't think there's anything wrong in getting a bit tipsy if you don't have to drive, and if you stop a few hours before getting on the metro or walking home. Alcoholics don't seem to have that "switch" that tells them when to stop, and that's why it's considered a disease (though some people don't believe it, and I'm a bit skeptical of it myself...)

As long as you're not driving or behaving inappropriately in public, drinking is not that different from having too much cake once in a while, or drinking too much soda and feeling a sugar high.

Moderation is key, with drinking and with anything in life. Too much of anything can be bad. Except for love :)

From Lucia on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 17:06:26

Uhhh... is this on? :)

Since the alcohol-related discussion seems to be dying out and we're still a ways away from 200 comments, can we turn our attention to another, much more widely-accepted drug? I'm talking about caffeine. I believe it's frowned upon by the LDS religion, although not as strongly as alcohol (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Personally, I've always tried to stay away from it, as I've read that it has some detrimental side effects in the long run. The last issue of Runner's world has different little bits of info quoting recent studies that show caffeine can boost performance. So my thought now is to continue to avoid it most days, but maybe have a little bit of it just before a race, or have gels with caffeine?

What do you think?

Another question to ponder is, if studies show that caffeine actually boosts performance, shouldn't it be banned from competition?

From sarah on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 17:14:40

Are we trying for 200? Oh boy..well I'll add a little tidbit. I've just always been put off by things that make me feel better or do better but could have bad side effects. If I'm not sure I just stay away from it all together.

The LDS church does "frown on" caffeine but it is not against our Word of Wisdom(the commandment we have to stay away from coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco and illegal drugs). Many members of the church have chosen to not consume caffeine in soda or other drinks but I think may not read every label to make sure it's not hidden somewhere...like in chocolate....or OTC drugs. I wasn't allowed to drink caffeine drinks as a kid and still don't. I'll let Sasha answer the part about whether or not it can improve performance but I can only guess what he'll have to say about it.

From Lucia on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 17:26:38

Thank you, Sarah, for the clarification. I wasn't sure if the frown was on coffee or on caffeine. Just out of curiosity, does the commandment say to stay away from all tea, even decaf/herbal teas, or iced tea?

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 17:34:46

I would say caffeine does improve performance, because I take the caffeine gels on a run. But playing Devil's Advocate here, I think too much of it is bad. In reality it's considered a drug. I drink soda pop and know the issues with caffeine, but I don't drink pop for caffeine I drink it because I like the taste.

From paul on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 17:48:24

I was wondering that myself, since herbal tea is not really tea at all. And what about hot chocolate? Just curious...

From JD on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 17:50:12

Without coffee...life would have no meaning. LOL!!

I can't drink it before a run though, too acidic in my stomach.

Again I would like to reiterate: Everyone is beautiful, especially long distance runners!

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 18:19:32

I never, never, never drink soda pop before a run, just after runs or long hours in-between runs for pleasure.

From sarah on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 18:21:32

herbal tea and hot chocolate although "hot drinks" are not against the word of wisdom. I think herbal tea is wonderful. We don't not drink green or black tea.

Lots of members love chocolate but we in our own family don't eat it because we feel carob is a better choice. So I make warm carob milk for my kids on a cold winter day and peppermint tea when they are sick.

From paul on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 18:28:52

I tried carob for the first time the other day, and melted it to top my homemade powerbars in substitution for chocolate. It tastes okay, but kind of funny if you're use to chocolate. Interestingly, when I compared the nutrition side-by-side, carob was way higher in calories, sugar, and sodium...and that's what made me buy it! (I need all the calories I can get, plus sodium is an electrolyte).

But I think I'll go back to chocolate sheerly for taste.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 18:53:05

The letter of the Word of Wisdom tells us to stay away from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, caffeinated tea (herbal tea not included), and street drugs (e.g marijuana, cocaine, etc.). What I mean by the letter is that you do not get a temple recommend and cannot serve in church callings if you have been using those.

The spirit of the Word of Wisdom (meaning, the principles are taught but the details of the application are left to the individual interpretation) says we should partake of the foods that nourish our body, and stay away from foods and substances that do it harm. We are particularly advised to maintain a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, and grains, and stay away from any substance that has a tendency to produce an addictive dependency. Even though I am not aware of any official statements by the Church that explicitly stated caffeine is against the Word of Wisdom, when asked by Larry King about caffeine answered: "No to caffeine, coffee and tea."

Regarding the letter vs the spirit as I defined it earlier. There are a lot of things that are taught in our church that if you fail to do you can still get a temple recommend. E.g during a temple recommend interview you are never specifically asked if you sincerely strive to control your temper, forgive those who have done you wrong, or maybe more detail specific - use profane language, or if you slack off on your prayers or scripture study. And I suppose if you told the bishop about those failing you'd still get the recommend. Unfortunately, we often slip into the mentality that because we can still go to our family weddings in the temple that must mean the bad things we do are not that bad and improvement in those areas is not urgent. And when that happens we are often rightfully so labeled as hypocrites by those outside our faith. Rightfully so because those forms of negative behavior still shut us out of the presence of God, but I suppose the hope is that if we can muster enough faith and humility to obey the required minimum (temple recommend interview standard) then maybe the Holy Ghost can get to us and help us bring the rest of our behavior to where it ought to be.

Regarding caffeine as a performance enhancer. It is already on the list of banned substances. As little as 8 cups of coffee can get you busted in a drug test.

From paul on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 19:02:00

8 cups! I can think of other things that would bust! (namely my bladder and bowels, probably my stomach too)

From Burt on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 19:04:24

Well said, Alexander.

From Burt on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 19:05:40

Also well said, Paul.

From sarah on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 19:20:40

What kind of carob did you buy Paul? It is naturally sweeter than chocolate so usually has less sugar in it. I've never really paid attention to the sodium or calories though. I too need plenty of calories as I have been pregnant or nursing now for 10 years straight! I think either you love chocolate or you love chocolate. I don't think there really is a substitution for it but we just decided it would be easier to avoid a lot of junk food if we made a general no chocolate rule for the kids.

From paul on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 20:49:02

I bought it from the bulk health food section at Smiths. When I say "sugar", I mean all sugars (fructose, glucose, sucrose, etc.). Not necessarily "added sugar". The carob is almost too sweet for me, but then again I prefer organic dark chocolate over milk chocolate. Fewer things added to it, and a little bitter. The same goes for my coffee: the blacker the better.

From sarah on Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 21:48:53

I know what you mean...I call whatever sweetner I use sugar half the time, even if it isn't technically. Well bravo on trying something new. I've actually eaten carob for so long now that although I once loved chocolate I don't like the taste as much and prefer carob.

From JulieC on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:15:31

Tried to read every comment. Don't like computer reading much. But here goes: I have been personally affected by irresponsible drinking of alcohol. One in 1982 when my father and sister were killed in a car accident by an eighteen year old girl drunk on a Friday at 530pm. My dad was picking my sister up from a friends house just three miles away from our house in New Hampshire. Talk about a life changing event. My mom remarried a man addicted to alocohol (although as a straight teenager I didn't realize the extent of his controlling behavior/abuse and its relation to his liquor consumption that was considered responsible, I just thought he was mean). Then a few weeks after kicking my older brother out of the house for smoking an officer knocks on our door in the early morning hours of November 5th, 1985. I in my room hear horrific screams from my mother and afraid to go downstairs to find my stepfather trying to console my mother after learning that her son was just killed in a car accident. His best friend had drove him home drunk from a party. You can see where my sister and I were headed in this situation. We spiraled downward the next few years, while I tried to keep straight A's, I'm okay look on my face and keep up with ski team, field hockey and track. I couldn't do it and went through years of depression. Guess where I ended up? BYU. As a non-member from the East. Miracles haven't ceased. That is for sure. My sister, mom and I are now active in the church. The only good out of alcohol in my life came from God when he brought me out here to Utah. My stepfather still drinks "responsibly" my entire family think they drink "responsibly". Personally I think it is a crutch. A way to distort reality. If you have kids that drink they aren't getting enough attention. If you are drinking it can't be for the taste. I have tasted many beers, and wines growing up. One taste, that's all to know it not something to be desired. Just like bitter medicine going down. Take lortab for instance. You get to swallow it but because some people can't control their need for the drug they would gladly chew the pill just to get it. Most bodies respond negatively to taste but some just want the end result and would do anything to get it. Have you ever been to a teenage party? They think they are so cool, yet noone can stand by themselves. They thrive on the attention of others. The pride of the world as I see it. Get off the horse and do something good. Drinking is a way to escape. Sure running helps you escape. But lets get real it only costs us a pair of running shoes ever so often and doesn't hurt anyone unless you run and never talk (communicate). It helps the economy (shoe stores, doctor visits for injuries, clothing stores), this is positive. It has also helped many an addict to overcome their addictions by changing to running. I love those stories in the Runners' World. Alcohol is an excuse to try to be someone else. I can go on and on about my history at my high school with drugs and alcohol and dealing with once good friends who were different after they chose to drink. I chose not to. I hope others that drink and say they do responsibly watch themselves (this is not to offend other bloggers).

From Lucia on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:46:33

Julie: I am so sorry about everything you've gone through. Hard to express with words how deeply sad and horrified I feel about your family's story. I read your blog profile too and you are such a strong person and a great runner. Please don't think that by responding here I'm trying by any means to disregard what you wrote or offend you in any way.

It appears that you're referring to underage drinkers causing the accidents in those occasions. Underage drinking is already illegal, and part of the discussion here is in regards to whether we need more laws/regulations for alcohol purchases. The laws already in place didn't stop those teenagers from drinking and driving evidently, and they don't stop teenagers from drinking too much at parties either. This seems to reinforce the idea that more laws prohibiting/regulating the sale of alcohol are not the best way to avoid incidents/irresponsible drinking. Maybe more/better education, less advertising that promotes drinking as being "cool" (as they already regulate cigarette advertising) would be a best way to approach things.

I also don't believe someone with an alcoholism problem would quit drinking if he was banned from purchasing alcohol. Illegal drugs are already banned, and addicts still manage to get them somehow.

Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone or disregard anyone's opinion and find this discussion extremely valuable.

Julie, I'm also glad that you found peace in your life now and thank you so much for sharing your struggles, I think it helps us put things in perspective better.

Respectfully,

Lucia

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:45:18

Julie - thanks for sharing your thoughts. Alcohol problem is often very private and well hidden. Those who have it themselves are often ashamed to admit they do. Their family members who suffer the consequences as well do not post a sign in the front yard either. So we think there is no problem. This reminds me of the words of Alexander Pope:

"Vice is a monster so frightful mien, As to be hated needs but to be seen; Yet too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace."

Another point to ponder. Suppose you are able to drink without ever losing control. You have a friend that respects you a lot that does not have that ability, does not currently drink, and is contemplating his first drink. Because he sees that you are able to handle life without problems, he decides to go ahead. After that he develops a dependency. Could you then be considered a truly responsible drinker?

From Lucia on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 13:28:04

That is a very good quote, Sasha.

About your point though, one person cannot be held responsible for other person's actions! If a friend who admires you decides to run a marathon because of you and during running gets permanently injured, does that mean you are responsible for that? Of course not, even if he/she followed a training plan that you recommended or that you follow to the T. We are each responsible for our own actions and to know our own limitations.

From rockness18 on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 14:13:48

Although "responsible drinking" is not a moral concern from my personal and religious convictions, I have chosen not to drink as a pastor due to a point Sasha just made. I would hate to be a "stumbling block" to somebody else. My family has abstained based on that one particalar concern (I also do a ton of marriage counselling that is so often related to alcohol abuse). At the same time, I am cautious not to demonize the person who has an occasional drink or a glass of wine each day (not saying any of you have). Your stories and insights are all points to be valued and considered...and my heart definitely goes out to many of you who's lives have been affected by it's abuse.

From jtshad on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 14:20:23

I too realize that there has been suffering from the iappropriate actions of those who drink and sympathize with your loss. But there has been suffering and loss due to the use of ladders, should we therefore villify the use of them for elevated work?

But I have to agree with Lucia. This same argument can be made of anyone who makes a poor decision while trying to follow in the footsteps of another, an individual is responsible for their actions.

Again, the statements being made on over regulating the choices and actions of others based on the consequences of someone else making/taking illegal actions in not what our demoncracy is based upon.

Also, do not presume to tell me what I can/should/do enjoy. I happen to like the taste of beer. I don't like the taste of black licorice, so doesn't that mean that it is "not something to be desired" by everyone? Overeating is way to "escape" do we therefore require everyone to be on a healthy diet?

From rockness18 on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 14:31:55

amen...I'll continue to respect a Morman or any other religion that prohibits it's use, yet we live in a country that not only gives freedom of religion, but tolerates those with different moral convictions and values. And I still think that any discussion looking to ban alchohol would have to seriously consider a ban of all use of vehicles. Irresponsible drivers are killing folks every day...cell phone abuse, alchohol, poor coordination, folks too old to drive, poorly lit roads, inexperienced teenagers, etc. I'm just not reading about drunk bicycle riders or joggers killing folks (ok, I realize someone will find an example, but it's the exception).

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 15:18:58

Lucia:

We are, of course, ultimately responsible for our own actions. However, this does not absolve us from a moral responsibility of helping those around us make better choices. We do not live in each in his own shell, we interact, and there is not a single thing we can do that would not impact others in some way, positive or negative. Eventually the consequences come back to us individually, again either positive or negative.

One simple example is when your neighbor's house is on fire. If you neglect your moral responsibility to do something to help, aside from the moral issues, your inaction could result in the fire spreading to your own house. In this case the consequences of complacency are obvious, so it rarely happens that we would let our neighbor's house burn. But figuratively speaking, in many other instances we let our neighbor's house burn all the time because the consequences are not as immediate, and thus not as apparent.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 15:44:07

Dave:

To what extent do you think we should tolerate in the law a diversity in the moral values?

My opinion - what we end up with in the law is simply the opinion of the influential majority on which forms of negative or immoral behavior they are willing to tolerate. It has less to do with how harmful that behavior is to the society than with the fact whether the influential majority wants to have a legal option to participate in that behavior. Similar to the way most people eat - the choice more often than not is based on taste and convenience rather than on whether it is good for the body.

One example - theft vs adultery. Under the law of Moses the penalty of adultery was death by being stoned. The penalty for theft was to restore what you have stolen in some greater proportion. Back in those times adultery was regarded as a much more serious offense than any form of property crime. As societies have become more materialistic, they began to value property more, and chastity less. I remember reading a newspaper article around 1983 that reported a prominent store manager in Moscow being executed for a serious property crime. I think the worst form of trouble you could get into for adultery in the Soviet Union was being expelled from the Communist Party for "immoral conduct".

In the US, things are not fundamentally different. Theft is considered a crime, and can result in a jail term. Adultery is still a crime on the books, but it is never enforced.

From Lucia on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 15:47:28

Sasha,

Absolutely agree that we have a responsibility for helping our fellow human beings - but there is a limit to it, and at some point, we each make our own decisions and have to be responsible for our actions - otherwise we'd live in a world where people can successfully sue the government for allowing McDonalds to exist, and make people fat.

Using your fire example, of course we are responsible for helping a neighbor whose house is on fire (that would be helping a neighbor who is an alcoholic by, for example, not drinking in front of them if you know of their problem). Another thing would be not to have any candles/matches in your house, because you don't know if your neighbor can handle turning on a candle or match without setting their house on fire...

Another analogy - should you not have any peanuts in your house just in case your neighbor is allergic to peanuts? Of course that doesn't make sense - it's your neighbor's responsibility to handle candles responsibly and stay away from peanuts, not yours.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 15:57:56

Lucia:

I believe you should help any time you can and every time do your very honest best. You have to remember that at the end of your life you will stand accountable before God for your actions and both He and you will know if what you did was your true honest best. Just like I would not want a can of beer to possibly keep me from winning an important race, I would not want the same can of beer to help push my friend into a gutter, and then stand before God at the end of things with a perfect knowledge that had I denied myself the pleasure my friend would have been somewhere else.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 16:49:29

Dave:

You used the word "demonize" a few times, and that got me thinking as too possibly why you would use the term in the context of the discussion. I noticed that in contrast with the Russian culture and the little bit of the Latino culture that I have observed Americans are very sensitive to being told that they are wrong, especially when the issue has something to do with individual behavior and discipline and the implication is that some deeply ingrained habits need to change. It is almost as bad for an American to be told he is wrong as it is for a Russian to be expected to bring something if you are inviting him for dinner.

From Burt on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 17:06:07

Are you saying Russians don't mind if they are told they are wrong? I thought it was just human nature in general to take the offensive.

From Lucia on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 17:16:54

Sasha,

Since I'm not sure I believe in an after-life, I believe in doing your true honest best in this life (precisely because it may be the only one chance we have)

Because you are a good person, you will do your best to help your neighbor or anyone for that matter. But, do you need laws and regulations to tell you how to be a good person? No! You are a good person because of the way you were educated, because of how your family, friends, church, teachers, and others in your life taught you about right and wrong. We choose every day to do the right thing or the wrong thing according to the law, our rights, our moral principles, our ethics, our safety, etc. We don't make decisions based only on what's legal or illegal. Laws are only part of what regulates our behavior, (and if I may add, a very small part of what regulates our behavior). Think about it every time you do something or refrain yourself from doing something: how many times a day do you think "I won't do this because it's illegal". Even if you were completely certain that you could not get caught ever doing something illegal, for the most part you wouldn't do it not because it's illegal, but because it would be stupid, not safe, immoral, unethical.

I personally believe consuming alcohol is bad for everyone; that drinking has no positive qualities or consequences whatsoever. Someone close to me had a brain injury (not alcohol-related) and I spent a lot of time in a neurological rehabilitation center learning about the negative effects of alcohol in our brain cells (they emphasized that right after a brain injury, refraining from drinking was very important) and learning so much about that affected my opinion on alcohol more than anything else.

Having more laws to regulate alcohol purchasing and consumption is simply not the best solution. Better results can be achieved by spending our time, money, and efforts in educating people about it.

On your adultery example, how many people would refrain from committing adultery if the penalties for it were harder, or if it were enforced more? My guess is, probably not many. Committing adultery is more of a moral and ethical issue than a legal issue for people. It has to do with our education, our environment, what we are taught as kids in church or school or by our families. The same is true with alcohol consumption, laws aren't as important as education, morals, ethics, culture, etc...

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 17:45:13

Burt:

Russians are OK being told they are wrong and need to shape up. They may not do it, they may argue that you are wrong instead, but they will not consider the behavior culturally unacceptable. When differences of opinion arise the discussion can get very heated but you see no name calling or insults. Americans in a similar situation will either beat around the bush/apologize for every word that could be taken wrong, or the discussion quickly deteriorates, insults flow, and there are bitter feelings afterwards.

On the other hand, there are many things Americans find no big deal that Russians will get worked up about.

Lucia:

I see a law as a form of education. How effective is teaching people not to smoke when tobacco is being sold at every gas station?

From sarah on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 17:49:38

Okay..I'm going to do an experiment..boy is this going to be fun. I'm going to tell Sasha he is wrong at every chance I get and see what happens. Oh..well..I probably ruined it by writing it on here...then he'll be ready to not take offense. Sorry honey..I couldn't resist.

Actually I have found that in my interaction with Russians and Americans that Americans do tend to be more careful what they say to people in fear of offending someone. Russians are more likely to tell ya like it is and don't seem to worry about it too much.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 17:56:55

To add to that - while Russians can have a heated discussion about matters of individual behavior civilly and with no bitter feelings, a simple disagreement about who is first in line can easily turn violent. Americans in the same situation would not care nearly as much.

From Lucia on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 18:01:51

Sarah: That's an interesting thought - Like Sasha pointed out, the Latino culture is also more "direct"... In my English class we often had special sessions on how to handle disagreement, emphasizing you need to "soften" your words in the American and Brittish culture a lot more than in the Hispanic culture.

Sasha: Smoking is a great example of my point - it's legal, readily available, and yet its consumption has gone down tremendously in the past few years, presumably because of increased taxes, more education about the health consequences, and regulating the advertisement of tobacco products, and not by regulating who can or cannot purchase cigarettes.

From rockness18 on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 18:21:05

Sasha,

"Demonize" may be too strong a term, yet some folks do seem to be a bit offended or "touchy" with those who don't see alchohol as a "moral" issue. I agree that American culture can be sensitive, yet this doesn't mean all of your personal convictions are right. Am I saying all of mine are? No...that's where my faith comes into play. If I were convinced of the more recent "prophecies" you subscribe to, I would hold your same conviction on issues such alchohol or coffee (by the way, I respect you tremendously for holding to your convictions). Fortunately you do not take offense and are very gracious in your willingness to engage and dialogue on these issues. Also, I agree with your observation on the tension that exists in "tolerating diversity in moral values". This can become quite a "slippery slope". We probably have much in common morally- 10 commandments, loving God, extending this love to neighbors...perhaps even politically...sanctity of marriage, pro-life, etc. Unfortunately for me, the laws does not always reflect my personal convictions and values, yet fortunately it does not prohibit me from raising my family in a way consistent with my personal convictions and I am committed to helping my family not only "tolerate", but respect and love those who are different than us.

From sarah on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 20:26:33

Dave- you sound like such a nice guy..we do have a lot in common..strong faith in goodness, family, christian values. Our church leaders actually emphasize the need for us to love everyone and especially to not judge. So I guess you could say it is one of our fundamental beliefs. Sasha may come across strong but he is one of the most loving people I know...

From rockness18 on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 20:40:16

Sarah, thanks...also, I enjoy Sasha's "strong" edge.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 15:00:38

Lucia:

What are your thoughts on de-criminalizing crimes like theft, robbery, or murder, and relying on education to prevent them?

From Lucia on Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 16:08:07

Sasha, I believe that would be as ridiculous as punishing misdemeanors with the death penalty. Laws are needed, and lines need to be drawn - and with alcohol purchasing, there are already laws in place. The laws are already there, and the lines are drawn. You can enforce the laws better, you can make the penalties harder, but why have more laws when people already disrespect the ones we have? As with all crimes, there will always be people that cross the line, no matter where the line is. Making the line a little harder to cross by requiring people to get a license to purchase alcohol won't change things much. Do you need a license to go into the supermarket that proves you're not a thieve or a robber? No, anyone can go into the supermarket and if they are caught comitting a crime, they face the consequences. We have freedom to choose our actions. When we make the wrong decisions and break a law, we are stripped from those freedoms. But we're not required to prove that we are able to handle those freedoms before having them. Driving requires specific skills, and that's where the licensing comes into place. Fishing licenses are issued to protect limited natural resources.

What would be the requirements necessary to receive a license to purchase alcohol?

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 17:17:48

Lucia:

I stated the basic idea of the requirements earlier - if you have not violated the law while under the influence in the last 5 years and if you are not currently on welfare.

I am still unable to follow your argument about education/vs making illegal. I see that you agree that a line needs to be drawn somewhere, but do you have any guidelines other than "where most people would not want to cross it anyway"?

From Lucia on Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:14:06

Sasha,

Your requirements make a lot of sense and I agree that those individuals, especially those that broke the law, should not be allowed to buy alcohol. We seem to disagree about when and how to impose the sanctions, partly because we have two different starting points: your assumption is that most (or all) people cannot drink responsibly, and mine is that most people can. Your approach is to require everyone to have a license, mine would be to take away that freedom somehow, but AFTER they've disrespected the law.

The education argument has to do with the fact that there are laws already in place, but they are not being respected - they are very difficult/expensive to enforce, and that's when I think more education or stronger penalties would be more effective, or when other voluntary social institutions need to step in to help, and not rely on the government or in having more laws to fix the problems. I'm not talking about replacing laws with education, I'm talking about supplementing laws with education.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:34:27

Lucia:

My assumption is not that most people are going to cause trouble if they drink. In order to justify the restrictions it is sufficient to assume that a significant group, not necessarily a majority, will cause trouble if allowed access to alcohol.

We have a lot of examples of this logic in our laws already. Most drivers are sufficiently skillful and responsible to drive with no trouble, yet we require driver's licenses. Most gun owners are responsible, but we require gun permits. Most people will not cause any trouble working with youth, but we require background checks before we let them. Any time the consequences of allowing the wrong person access are sufficiently troublesome we have some measure to keep him out even though most people are OK and he is in a minority.

Why not apply it to alcohol? There is no good logical reason. I have not yet seen one offered in this discussion.

From JON L on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:52:46

**I stated the basic idea of the requirements earlier - if you have not violated the law while under the influence in the last 5 years and if you are not currently on welfare. **

Unworkable. The practical result is that you've just added an element of "under the influence" to every law in the books. It can be hard enough to litigate in DUI cases...remember, it's LEGAL to drink and drive...but illegal to drive under the influence So you regularly get DUI trials where drinking is conceded, but "under the influence" is the issue. This could then become an issue in every kind of case.

And the long term practical result of banning certain people from drinking is a huge increase in repeat offenders, probation violators, parole violators, who have done nothing but get drunk in their house. Most of the people in prison today are in there for probation/parole violations regarding the consumption of drugs and alcohol.

The prisons are swelling up. So most jurisdictions are moving to "intervention" type courts like drug courts and mental health courts, etc.

I agree that it's a problem to be dealt with but I don't agree making a new law gets us there.

On a side note, I think it's often disregarded how many people are driving around hopped up on "legitimate" medication. There's a been a huge increase in the number of people taking anti-anxiety meds, antidepressants, etc. in our society. Some of those are very powerful, and many people who are otherwise abstainers, become fond of overmedicating themselves.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 12:38:51

Jon:

Why would it be unworkable? A person goes into the store. They ID him already anyway. What I am suggesting is that if he wants to buy alcohol they run his ID through a background check and if they find him on the offender list, they deny the purchase. What's hard about that?

From Burt on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 13:11:06

I'm going to be the 199th comment because I know everyone's just waiting to be the 200th.

From Chad on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 13:33:56

Number 200. Man, this feels great :)

From Jon on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 13:54:16

Good job, Chad. Now can we declare this thread dead?

From Lucia on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 13:56:12

Nope - now we have to go to 300!

From wheakory on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 14:05:32

This thread is becoming more of spam than anything else. I agree with Jon it time to end it.

From sarah on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 14:05:44

That's cheating Chad..I say we call for a recount...

I just thought I'd mention here that there are a lot of law happy people out there.

I've heard of people pushing for a law against driving tired because of deaths related to sleepy drivers. I would be in trouble for sure. Do you think I'd get off easy because there is no such thing as a mom of six who is not tired?

From Jon L on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 14:47:03

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying...if you're talking about prior convictions for "Driving While Under the Influence", that would be easy enough.

But the way I read your proposal I thought you were talking about any crime committed "under the influence." That's a whole different boat.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.000.000.002.0016.00

A.M. Ran with Tyler. Did a warm-up, then 8x400 on the trail with 200 recovery. The purpose of the workout was a nervous system reboot. It has worked in the past in some cases, and my body was suggesting it was time for this particular workout. The focus was to learn a smooth but powerful and wide stride and how to maintain it with the anaerobic bear on the back. The value comes from being able to apply the wide stride skill when the anaerobic bear is not there, but you have to run longer. Usually with a lot of tempo runs the skill carries.

Ran all on the same stretch alternating direction. Tyler did a few 200s with me. Times: 73.1, 73.0, 72.0, 70.0, 71.6, 71.2, 72.6, 69.4. Felt the stride was choppy in the first two, and somewhat in the third. Then it got wider and more relaxed. Lost concentration on the 7th trying to get around a group of walkers. Could not go any faster, but was recovering very well. Felt ready to go again after 100 meter jog, but gave it more rest anyway. Was originally planning on taking 400 meter rest at times to encourage more sub-70s, but realized it was not going to help. Decided I needed to let the times happen naturally, not force them. On the last one coasted through the first 200, then pushed the last 200.

Ran a long cool-down, total distance 12 miles.

The excitement of the day was seeing two police cars on the trail and some teenagers getting arrested. Instead of handcuffs they had some form of a strait jacket around them.

T4 Racer - 645.05 miles

P.M. 1.5 alone in 11:37. 1 with Benjamin and Julia in 10:46. Benjamin's knee is still hurting from soccer, he would not even try running with Jenny. Then 1.5 with Jenny in 13:10.

Went to the temple with Sarah. I told her on the way that somebody was going to ask us if she was pregnant with our first child. She was skeptical. Sure enough, the sealer did.

Five Fingers - 1407.63 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Phoenix on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 13:16:24

Nice workout. How does you body react so say, 65s, with a 4-5 minute recovery?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 13:41:15

Right now, it would be hard to do more than a couple in 65 regardless of the length of the recovery. With some tuning I could do about 5. Even then those feel hard, too hard to be productive. And after jogging 400 meters no additional recovery short of trying the next repeat a day later is ever helpful.

From Phoenix on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 14:03:05

It takes at least 5 minutes for muscles to recover (fully replenish phosphocreatine, etc), no matter what your fitness level is.

Three days before my 1500m PR I ran 3 x 400 in 53 with a 2-lap walk. I was going to do 5 until the head Coach, who was watching, pulled me off the track and told me that I would be traveling with the team that Saturday. I feel like that workout, strictly from a neural potentiation perspective, was very valuable and allowed me to heel-strike throught the first 800 in 2:01. If only I had had the aerobic base to support that kind of speed. . . Now I still don't have an aerobic base and don't have any speed either.

----------------------

What is the fastest you could run 3-4 x 400m relaxed?

From tyler on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 14:05:52

Hey, I sent you a message late last night, I was up till about 2:30 working on a project. I guess it didn't go through. Do I have your cell number? Would you mind emailing it to me?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 15:23:07

Tyler - home number 801-788-4608, cell 801-372-0470. Home works better, try that first.

Eric - some food for thought. I have been able to do 50x100 alone averaging 15.5 with a 100 meter jog recovery. In the first 5 or so I had a hard time breaking 16.0, then warmed up and started hitting around 15.1 - 15.2, then as the fatigue set on slowed down to around 15.5 in the last 10-15 or so. My all out 100 PR is 13.9, and that was set racing Steve Ashbaker. I have done tests with all out sprint racing somebody vs by myself, and the difference has been around 0.7. Without racing a peer in a close race I have a very hard time going under 14.5.

I wonder if for one reason or another I am not able to fully deplete phosphocreatine when sprinting.

Another thing that I find odd is that with all the aerobic base I've got, giving me a 100 meter rest between each repeat 49 times produced a 5 K of 12:54. At that time I was not in shape to break 16:00 on the track. If I had to do in in quarter increments with 200 recovery, I probably could have done around 14:30. The aerobic base was was as always good, though. Of course, we do not know if this difference is normal or not, as this is a very unusual workout.

That workout made me very very sore. It was worse than the St. George marathon, and probably as bad as one day after DesNews. I must say that is the only interval workout that has made me sore in the last 10 years. I've done it twice with the same results.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 15:42:24

Eric - the fastest I could run 3-4 400s relaxed depends on the amount of tuning I've done. When properly tuned, probably around 68. But then again, I could do as many as 8 or maybe even 12 if it is relaxed.

From RivertonPaul on Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 17:38:17

Love it when a sealer makes good on inspiration.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.880.500.000.0016.38

A.M. Ran alone. The run started with some excitement. Just like yesterday it involved police and juveniles. I ran out about 0.14 and saw Sarah. She got a cramp. We stood there together trying to decide what to do. In the meantime a police car pulled up and a cop asked us if we'd seen anybody. He told us somebody called and reported that some juveniles were causing trouble. I think he thought for a moment we were the juveniles.

Finally we decided to get the van and give Sarah a ride home. So I ran back another 0.14. Then ran 12.1 in 1:32:44. My body said I needed to slower than 8:00 pace in the first 3 miles, and I did not force the pace to be any faster. Then it agreed to run around 8:00 pace. After 6 miles 7:00-7:20 pace felt right, so I ran it. With half a mile to go I felt like picking it up and ran 2:56 for the last 0.5.

Quote of the day:

Those teachers, they just don't understand. They expect something from a guy that has just run a 20 K. It is as if he had just had 100 grams of vodka!

A Russian distance coach.

Joke of the day:

An Eskimo from Chukotka is sitting by the Bering Strait and looking in the direction of Alaska. He is in tears. They ask him what's wrong. He responds: "The Queen sold Alaska, but she did not sell Chukotka!"


P.M. 1.5 alone in 12:40, 1 with Julia in 10:43, 1.5 with Benjamin and Jenny in 13:15. Pushed Jacob for the last 2.5 miles.

Five Fingers - 1420.01 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.850.254.750.0016.85

A.M. Ran with Jeff and little James (Ted's son). We warmed up 5.62. After that James continued to the house, and Jeff and I ran the 5 mile tempo. I was not sure what to expect, so the plan was conservative - go out at around 5:40-5:45 pace, pick it up if I felt good, just try to hold it otherwise.

First quarter was sluggish - 87, then I was able to get into a rhythm. Splits by the mile:

5:36, 5:29, 5:32 (with a 180), 5:29, 5:30

Total time 27:36.6, first half 13:52, second 13:44. Was happy to beat 5:30 average coming back. 53.5 seconds faster than Tuesday.

Jeff was feeling very conversational and energetic. During the first mile I thought he was going to burst into a song. Throughout the run I had to ask him a few of times to back off because I could not hold his pace. In the last three quarters he let his horses loose and ran 76,76,75 to finish in 27:16, and hitting 5:10 in the last mile.

Drafting behind Jeff I could hit 83 quarters fairly relaxed, they almost felt like a jog. However, 82 quarters required concentration, and when it got to 81 it was sufficiently unsustainable for me to have to ask Jeff to ease off. Once Jeff left me, I struggled through a couple of 84 second quarters, and then was able to speed up to 80 on the last one. The struggle may have had something to do with running 81, and then 82 uphill earlier as well as with running alone.

Overall the tempo went better than I expected. I thought it would have been good to just dip under 28:00. Nothing spectacular, but after Tuesday I was prepared for much worse.

Cooled down 1.38, then ran 2 miles with Benjamin in 17:35 in Five Fingers.

 T4 Racer - 657.05 miles

 Five Fingers - 1422.01 miles

P.M. 0.35 around the block with Joseph pushing Jacob in the stroller accompanied by Julia running and Jenny on a bike. 1 with Julia in 11:03. My ESL student's son Moroni joined us half way on a bike. He was quite surprised that Julia was running and not getting tired. I told him she could go faster and challenged her to show off. She picked it up, but it was not too far away from the finish and she ran the rest of the run pretty slow, so a slow overall time. Then I told him I had another running daughter, older and faster. 1.5 with Jenny and Moroni in 12:12. Jenny cranked it up to about 7:40 pace in the second half, and Moroni said, wow. Then I told him she had more in the tank, and challenged her to show off. She sped to about 7:00 in the last 0.14.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From Burt on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 13:33:13

Hey, Sasha. I think we talked the race director for the Tucson Marathon into changing the day of the race from Sunday to Saturday for the 2009 race. I'll bet there'll be some people interested in knowing that from the blog.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 14:40:32

Burt - it would be good if they did. I would guess they could get as many as extra 200 runners from the neighboring states from the change.

There is another thing that needs to change there - an improvement in the area of elite runner support. At the very least they could offer comp entries. In all honesty, I see no reason why any race with more than 100 people could not offer $100-$50-$25 prize purse with comps + accommodations with volunteer families for runners that meet the standard.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From seth on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 12:54:54

Sasha,

Good luck this weekend at the big St. George Marathon. I hope it goes well for you. I wanted to make sure that we are still OK on the terms of me running with the fast running blog for travel. Let me know. How do you want me to send you the reciept for this flight?

Thanks

Seth

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 16:31:58

Seth - just send me an e-mail with the amount.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.091.250.000.0011.34

A.M. 1 with Julia in 10:49. 8 mostly alone in 59:31. Shortly before the turnaround saw Luz, then decided to run a bit faster to catch up after the turnaround, and then a little bit with her whatever pace she was going. Ran the fast portion (1.25) in 7:06. Felt good.

 Five Fingers - 1431.01 miles

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:01. Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 12:42. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:58 pushing Jacob in a stroller. He ran the whole way without stopping. This is his first official record for a distance longer than 100 meters. Then Jacob wanted to run to. He did a "speed workout" - 2x100 first in 1:10, second in 1:04. First time I was able to get a 2 year old to run without stopping for that long. I think running is going to be more natural for the younger children as they watch the older ones.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.340.000.000.0011.34

A.M. Easy 8 in 1:03:31, first 4 with Derek. Felt good.

Five Fingers - 1431.01 miles

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:21. Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 13:05. Benjamin decided he wanted to play the last soccer game of the season after all. So we went. 1 mile with Julia there in 10:58. Benjamin's team won 2-1. The players were smaller, and Benjamin was also more careful. No injuries this time. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:12. Jacob did 2x100 - 1:06 and 1:07.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Snoqualmie on Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 16:36:26

Sounds like your are doing great. Are you tapering? Best wishes this weekend!!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.840.500.000.009.34

A.M. Relaxing 6 with Jeff early in the morning in 53:59. We beat the 9:00 girl by 1 second! I think if you go slower than 8:30 your virtual competitor is not a guy anymore. We were not trying to go slow, it just happened - it was dark, early, and we were deeply engaged in a conversation about Jeff's Spanish test at BYU to get credit for some classes. My three most recent training partners (Jeff, Tyler, and Derek) are fluent in Spanish, and are also young enough to where I can say : "I ran a 10 K at 6:00 pace before you learned to walk". Anybody who learned to walk after the end of September of 1985 fits into the category. But at the same time today somebody called me an Elder at the temple again, which would imply he thought I looked like a 19-year-old missionary.

P.M. 0.34 with Joseph, Jenny, and Julia running, and Jacob in the stroller in 3:57. 1 mile with Jenny and Julia in 10:56 pushing Jacob. Jenny got hurt on the playground, so she ran less and slower today. Jacob then did 2x100 - 1:02, and 1:06. He is the best focused 2 year old we've ever had. He just runs - does not get distracted at all. He put a pair of running shoes on Sleeping Beauty this morning and said something to the effect that she should go for a run.  2 with Benjamin in 15:56. He did a fast 0.5 in the middle in 2:57, splits of 90 and 87. That is his new record for 0.5,and a PR for 0.25 as well.

Five Fingers - 1431.01 miles

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From Michelle on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 23:29:10

Sasha

I tried to list favorites on my blog but the only one that will show up is Lybi. I've tried through safari and flock browsers any suggestions?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.720.620.000.009.34

A.M. 6 alone in 44:39. Started out slow as usual, the 8:00 guy had 32 seconds on me at 1.25. Then I was cruising along at a little bit faster than 7:30 pace. I was wondering if I was going to catch the 7:30 guy today. With about 1 K to go I remembered a Russian joke. A bus driver was watching an old lady run towards the bus. He kept wondering if she'd make it. Finally he said to himself, no she won't, closed the doors and drove away. So it was just like this joke, except I decided the old lady was going to make the 7:30 guy bus. With 1 K to go I sped up to about 5:50 pace, ran it in 3:38, and she made it.

P.M.  1 with Julia in 9:56, 2 with Benjamin in 16:52, Jenny did 1.5 with us in 13:07. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:52. Jacob did 2x100 in 55 and 57.

Five Fingers - 1437.01 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Jason McK on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 14:33:39

So are these 7:30 guys and 9:00 gals in your head, or do you have a 'virtual training partner' gps/heart rate monitor?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 15:32:31

All in my head. I just run whatever pace the body feels like for the first 30-60% of the run, and then if I have nobody to talk to I decide which guy I am going to chase that day.

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 16:39:40

At least your entertaining yourself in the run. I always think of things at work, and what my kids' schedules are for the day while I'm listening to music. I'll also pray doing the run and worship God.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
5.440.001.000.006.44

A.M. Ran 3.1 with Kory in Provo in 22:29. Did a mile pickup in 5:25. 1 with Julia in 10:56, 2 with Benjamin in 17:35, Jenny did 1.5 in 13:07. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:46. Jacob did 2x100.

P.M. Drive to St. George.

 Five Fingers - 1443.45 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Race: St. George Marathon (26.22 Miles) 02:34:43, Place overall: 10
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
1.0026.220.000.0027.22

Quick report. St. George Marathon, 2:34:43, 10th place. Bad weather. Rain all the way, headwind. The times were probably around 6 minutes slower for the same effort. Feet got soaked, misjudged my fuel levels, and did skipped too many aid stations. Ran out of fuel, hit the wall, increased the fuel intake, was able to recover some, but still the last 10 K in 39:48. Live and learn.

Interesting that many others were having similar problems. Blog did well - we captured 5 out of the top 10 spots. $100 cash for being first from Utah County + $150 for winning the age division last year and finishing this year + $100 travel certificate. Not bad for a mediocre performance, makes up for getting nothing (except the come-back travel stipend) last year for a 2:23. Sometimes you have to come back next year to collect for the unfairness of the prior year.

Details:

The start was wet, but it did not look too bad at first. However, after the first mile in 5:56 I knew that something serious was up. Even though I hid myself in the pack the best I could it felt hard. I would have normally blamed this on my fitness, but the pack with the exception of a couple of rabbits was in no hurry to speed up. Even after that mile when Nick and Clyde tried to pick up the pace, the next mile was 5:49, and it did not feel like a jog at all. On the third mile Dave Holt tried to pick up the pace. Knowing Dave I knew what he was thinking. "I do not care about the rain and the headwind, if I just believe in myself I can get my goal time!" But the laws of nature cannot be ignored.This would have been bad for him and every blogger in the pack. I warned him to not even think of racing for time and not to break the pack that early. Ideally I wanted to see everybody together at 20 even if that meant that some would have to run a bit faster, and others would have to hold back.

My feet were wet from the start, and I was running very tense. We made it to 5 miles in around 28:15. I started to feel a bit better. The pack was composed mostly of bloggers, but there were some dark horses in it. Too many dark horses for my taste - I wanted to see 1-10 blogger sweep with no gaps. One of them looked particularly troublesome. He had a perfect collegiate runner form. This could be both good and bad. If he is a typical collegiate runner, no worries, he'll blow up after 20. But if he's done his homework, he could be full of trouble. I learned his first name at the bottom of Veyo from the cheering. It was Mark. I wondered about his last name for the rest of the race, but he had taken off, so I could not ask.

I learned his last name at the finish. It was Currell. Indeed he was a recent college grad. He ran for SUU. His collegiate times were good enough to run for college but nothing exceptional. 4:25 mile, 3:59 1500, 14:31 5000, and 30:51 10000. However, he had run a remarkable race after college winning Seafair 8 K in 24:30, ahead of Mike Sayenko (24:39), and our Sean Sundwall (25:03). Seafair is not a fast course. Mike ran 2:18 at the 2008 Trials, and was fifth at TCM with 2:19 in tough conditions this year. Sean around that time ran 2:22 alone on an honest course. Anybody who can beat Mike and put a 30+ second gap on Sean over an 8 K can rock in the marathon when properly trained.

And Mark sure did. Once Veyo started he literally disappeared into horizon. Jeff commented - "If he is going to come back, he would have to crash pretty hard. Otherwise, he is not coming back."

I did better than I expected going up Veyo. First Dave Danley and Nick got an little antsy and tried to go after Mark. I got concerned, and tried to go with them in fear of losing contact. But then I realized I needed to ease off. Jeff McClellan and Dave Holt passed me and gapped me, but then I worked my way back to them. Soon we had a pack again - Nick, Dave Holt, Jeff, and myself. Dave Danley was about 20 seconds ahead, and we maintained the distance. We lost Clyde and the rest of the dark horses.

We plodded along at around 6:00 pace up the Dameron Valley. Got to the half in 1:15:22. Reeled in Dave Danley, and he joined us briefly. At around 14 Dave Holt's horses started to neigh, he pushed and broke the pack. Jeff went after him, Nick stayed with me, and Dave Danley fell back.

The cold weather messed with my senses. I felt I had plenty of fuel, and being as wet as I was I did not feel like either drinking or (side effect) spilling Gatorade on myself. So I was missing a lot of aid stations, and not getting very much in me when I actually bothered to grab a cup. As it turned out I would pay for it later.

Had it been dry and warmer the chills would not have obscured the readings of the fuel gauge. But I was clearly unprepared for the conditions. I had not factored in the altered perception effect. I had also underestimated that my body would be heating up the air for 26 miles, and had not dressed properly, nor was I taking in the extra fuel for warming up the environment. You would think that in over 45 marathons I would have learned better. Some people are just slow learners.

Nick made a move, and dropped me as if I were standing still. It was almost like he was a lead vehicle cop that accidentally hit the accelerator. I was running alone, but feeling fairly strong as we went up a small hill. But then there was Winchester. Based on how I felt at Veyo and on that small hill maybe half a mile before Winchester I thought I'd scale it no problem. But once we got there the head wind picked up and I started to lose steam. I never regained for the rest of the race.

Nick stopped to tie his shoe, and I passed him.

Clyde, Nick, and Pepi Petersen went by me as if I was standing still. I then caught up to Jeff, and he told me he was not feeling good. I told him to tough it out. I began to realize that I was running out of fuel. Unfortunately my hands were shaking and I was spilling half of the Gatorade into my eyes. The eye contact with lemon acid (I think) in combination with the already low blood sugar was causing a fuzzy vision. This was annoying, but provided food for thought. Lemon acid drop in the eye could possibly act as a blood sugar test on the run.

20 miles in 1:54:55, but who cares about the time. Running just to finish and hopefully stay in the top 10. Josh Steffen went by me as if I were standing still around mile 21. Jon Allen would be next, I thought, of the people I knew.

Fortunately I understood the nature of the problem, and started slowing down at the aid stations, taking double dozes of Gatorade, and making sure all of it went in. But it would take another couple of miles for it to start working, and during that time I would have to jog.

I began to experience a loss of will power, typical when blood sugar goes down. I did not care about the race, and did not even want to finish. There were several motivators that kept me going, though. The first one I thought of was that the quickest and the warmest way to get to the finish was to run as fast as I could. The thought of having to wait for the DNF bus for a couple of hours in the cold was absolutely terrifying. I also thought that I needed to set a good example for the blog. I was still in the top 10, and needed to stay there. I wanted to see as many bloggers in the top 10 as possible. But the more noble reasons were an afterthought. I thought of comfort first. Mosiah 3:19:

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Got passed by Chan Yee Woo from Iowa as if I were standing still. Hit the Diagonal. Barely passed some girls that were out for a jog. Saw Lybi with a huge banner cheering for the bloggers. Around mile 25 heard another runner approaching. Thought for sure it would be Jon and got ready to congratulate him on a great race. But it was not Jon, it was Motoharu Fukunaga from Japan. Negative advertisement for the blog, but it worked. He asked for an FRB card afterwards. He quickly put 20 seconds on me.

With about 0.8 to go the Gatorade kicked in, and a portion of my strength returned. I picked up the pace, started to feel some power in my legs, and my racing mindset returned. Motoharu started coming back, but the gap was already too big.

I did not know what place I was in, and was relieved to find out that I finished 10th.

Had an interesting fuel economy learning and faith building experience on the way back. The pressure at the CNG station in St. George was low, so we were able to fill up the Fast Running Van only half way. Cedar City was even worse. So we left Cedar City, and as far as I knew we were going to run out of gas 30 miles or so away from Fillmore, and then have to call for a tow truck. That did not sound exciting. I said a silent prayer. At first I asked the Lord to help the van make it. Then I thought I needed to be more specific and pro-active. I asked the Lord to show me what I needed to do so the van would make it. I was already driving 55 mph and getting passed by trucks. I had considered drafting, but the trucks seemed to me to have been going too fast to make it worth it. The moment I finished the prayer another truck passed us, but not as fast as the other trucks. I thought, try drafting. The truck was going 62 mph. I asked Kory and Jeff what they thought about that. They both agreed that drafting at 62 mph will give you better fuel economy than 55 mph alone. So I drafted behind the truck the whole way, and we made it with 1/8 of a tank left. The pressure in Fillmore was low again, and again I was able to fill up only half way. But this time I knew what to do, and we made it to Provo with a little bit less than 1/4 of a tank left.

T4 Racer - 684.27 miles

Night Sleep Time: 6.25Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 6.25
Comments
From Lucia on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 00:05:19

Congratulations on the placement, and the prize money! Sorry to hear you weren't having that much fun - nice job to toughen it up in those conditions!

From matt on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 00:34:41

Sasha, more of a context question. When you say you think the wind and rain added around six minutes, is that based off of your time. In other words it added on 4% more time aprox. for you so a slower runner like me might be able to minus of 4% from my slower 3:10:41 time. Or one could argue no you are running faster so the wind caused you more resistance than it did for me. I am just wondering your thoughts. I'll look forward to your report. Congrats on a tough race.

From marion on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 01:15:54

Congratulations on a great finish with the elements going against all runners this morning :) FRB did a great job!

From dave holt on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 01:49:37

I know that some of this might be based upon my desire to think I did better, but I think the wind influenced me more than 6 minutes. Just looking at my splits and knowing what times I can hit on that course from running it so many times, as well as Clyde, I think more like 8 minutes+.

Besides the point...

Sasha good job today. We tried. Our group effort was solid for awhile and I think it helped us until we fell apart. Thanks for the times you helped me.

From Christi on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 09:35:01

Great job coming in top 10! Glad to hear the blog was so well represented in the top 10 also! Sorry I missed your family at the pre-race party (we left before you arrived)

From MichelleL on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 20:25:04

I actually think that the wind and rain affected faster people more than mid-packers (not that 3:10 is a mid-packer). So I wouldn't go by % anyway and its comforting to know all our times were off, but we can't go adjusting our race times of course. They are what they are. We have all survived so we can race another day.

From Superfly on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 20:35:19

14 min's plus no questions asked .)

Good job and glad to see you made it home with the little amount of gas in you vehicle.

From Jon on Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 22:19:22

My judgement would be that the wind affected everyone at least 5-6 minutes. For those who went out too fast, it probably slowed them more since they had longer to die. And I would say people who ran 10+ miles by themselves were affected much more, too- at least 7-10 minutes, I would guess. Big difference on people who sat in a pack the whole time versus people who fought the wind by themselves. In the end, it affected everyone though by different amounts. Probably can't quantify as accurately as Sasha would like.

By the way, good job Sasha- top 10 finish and some money.

From wheakory on Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 13:31:36

Nice run in the conditions, and it was good to spend time with you. Will be back to better times soon.

From Kelli on Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 19:17:46

You are a true runner. I can not believe the way you analyze everything---including the guy who won. It never ceases to amaze me the way you see things. And you are so dang honest!

Great race in not so great of conditions.

From Tyler on Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 22:20:29

Nice run, all things considered.

I remember hearing Mark's name in high school, he was a decent runner from a neighboring town but was never amazing, maybe 9:30 for 3200m. I didn't hear anything about him till this year when he won the Robison Invite 5k. He competed in the NCAA Champs this year, so he's no hack. I believe his PR is closer to 14:10.

Anyway, nice run!

From Mike Warren on Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 23:47:16

Sasha, still a respectable time. Maybe not by your standards, but could of been worse. I was glad to hear you are still learning things in marathons. One huge mistake I made. I had been training in Asic Gel stratus. A little heavy, but great cushioning. I wore a pair of saucony Fastwitch 3's for the race. Needless to say, by mile 15 my feet and legs were trashed. Still hurts to walk. I have no experience with this, but some have told me thats why my calves cramped so bad. Anyway, we live to run another day. Great job gutting out the race!

From josse on Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 23:59:51

I wish we could control more things through a marathon. But the weather is just not one of them. Good finish on a cold, wet, and windy day.

From britta on Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:16:11

Thank you for your thoughts. I have always felt running strengthens me spiritually and from your entries it seems to do the same for you. St. George was my 4th marathon and I PR'd. Reading your blog gives me encouragement that I can continue to improve and reach goals by putting in the time and believing I can do it! Thank you!!!

From Lybi on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 15:51:33

Great job on a tough day, Sasha. I'm glad you didn't take the DNF route, despite the difficulty. I love that the scripture helped keep you going.

I think that the weather affected the guys with super-low body fat the most. I hope you don't mind me saying so, but you and Kory looked worse than anyone else I saw in the recovery area(other than James' freakishly blue lips).

I'm glad you saw my sign. I was so excited, but the thing didn't last very long in the rain. Probably only the first 50 runners saw it before it degenerated into a nasty mess. Durn!

From wheakory on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 16:06:20

Lybi - I actually felt fine after the finish line. I even ran about an hour after I crossed the finishing line. Probably what you saw was the disappointment. Other than I did get trampled on at the start and my hip/shoulder was really hurting bad. But I never hit the wall. I just had a lot of miscues. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I really did feel fine crossing the finishing line. The last mile was one of the fastest of the race.

I was glad to be done though, and when you don't expect to PR it's hard to stay motivated in the run.

From wheakory on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 16:16:03

To also brag on Sasha he did an excellent job managing the fuel economy on the way back. We did some major miles with little gas. I also prayed to the Lord that he would give this van faith and strength to make it to the next stop.

Sasha and all of us had fun in his van. I appreciate Sasha for his giving and allowing us to take his van, and also for staying with him in Provo the night before. He really is generous and fun to be around.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 16:16:15

Lybi - I actually did not think of the scripture until I recalled the experience while writing the race report. When I was cold, off pace even with the weather adjustment, and out of fuel, all I could think about was first how to get warm the quickest, second the money at the finish line, and third, help the blog rule the best you can, in that order. Thus the natural man reared his ugly head. Anybody running a marathon should be prepared to deal with him in the last 6 miles. What are you going to do when you lose your willpower, and you are mentally not yourself? You may think you won't, you may swear you won't, you may consider a mere suggestion that you might an insult but most certainly you will. This is the part of the race where you will do better if you planned to be a surviver than if you planned to be a hero.

From Lybi on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 23:18:27

Well, Kory let me explain....You had a bloody hand, goosebumps everywhere, and you were shivering like you were trying to shake your skin off. You just looked cold cold cold, despite saying that you were fine. You both did a fabulous job of pushing through adversity in this race--that is what I am trying to say.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 00:11:29

Nice job, Sasha. Funny experience driving home, too. And I would have loved to be the one catching you in the last miles of the race, but had a bad race. Oh well, what do you do. Next year.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Listened to General Conference. Legs still sore from the marathon. All in the quads. This one has beat me up pretty bad, almost as bad as a regular DesNews. May have something to do with the combination of downhill running and the cold muscles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From paul on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 14:16:55

It probably has some to do with dehydration and poor fueling during the race too.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.340.000.000.009.34

A.M. 6 miles alone in 44:38. Quads still sore,  but runnable without a limp. 1 with Julia in 10:56. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:53. Jacob did his baby speed workout - 2x100 - 1:07, and 1:03.

Joseph calls my Five Fingers "The Running Feet".

P.M.  2 with Benjamin in 16:39. Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 12:56.

Five Fingers - 1450.79 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.340.000.000.0011.34

A.M. Slept in and was lazy. Sarah had to take Joseph to the dentist at 7:00 AM, and I did not feel like finishing my run before then in the dark. So figuring I since I was in the time-off phase I decided to get more sleep and run when it was warmer.

P.M. 8 miles alone in 57:10, 1 with Julia in 10:56, 2 with Benjamin in 17:16, Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 12:55, 0.34 with Joseph in 3:57, and 2x100 with Jacob - 55, and 54.

Five Fingers - 1462.13 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.000.000.000.0011.00

A.M. Was going to run with Jeff, but he was still sore. But I had already gotten up when I found out. So I ran at 5:30 AM alone. It was dark and cold. It took me until the end of the run to kind of get going, but that's OK. I'm taking time off. 8 miles in 1:06:46. Then 1 mile with Julia to Reams and back to get toilet paper in 9:37.

P.M.2 with Benjamin in 17:29, Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 13:12. 

Five Fingers - 1470.13 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From The Howling Commando on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 14:36:16

Man what are those Five Fingers made out of? Super poly carbonate ? holy crud that's awesome! almost 1500 miles on those suckers.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 14:41:45

Benn - the right one has a couple of holes, but otherwise they are OK. They are still runnable even with the holes.

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 11:42:30

I think Vibram should comp you. Thanks again for the blog community.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.340.000.000.0011.34

A.M. 8 with Derek in 1:01:38. Talked about steeple chase in the middle, and US economy towards the end. We both found it rather odd that in our economy significantly more people market, sell, advertise, write legal contracts, sue, manage money, etc, than engineer or manufacture products. So perhaps what we are experiencing is a natural consequence of the imbalance, and it is just things going back to where they should have been in the first place.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:56, 0.34 with Joseph in 3:46, 2 with Benjamin in 17:15, first 1.5 with Jenny in 13:14. Jacob did 2x100.

Five Fingers - 1478.13 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From air darkhorse on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 20:28:46

No, This is the result of sheer greed and stupidity. This is complimented by irresponsible monetary policy for many years on the part of Alan Greenspan and the Fed. There are other big reasons of course such as people living beyond their means. Now we get see hyperinflation similar to Germany during the 1920s.

From air darkhorse on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 20:32:51

Where is Paul Volcker when we need him...

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 21:49:29

Steve - maybe we are talking in essence about the same thing. I just like to study things at a very low level. One example. A client wants me to sign a 20 page contract to do maybe 5 hours of work for him. Why in the world do they bother preparing 20 pages of contract? 30 years ago it would have been a handshake agreement. Greed? Yes. Stupidity? Yes. Everybody is afraid of getting sued and is going over the board to protect themselves. Because we as a nation have lost basic honesty, a healthy measure of a thick skin, and a some serious amount of common sense, we cannot breathe anymore without a fear of a law suit and it sure costs us in a multitude of ways. That is just one example of how increasing levels of greed and stupidity put a strain on the economy. It all adds up, and then the camel back breaks, and boom, we have a crisis.

From kobyhud on Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 23:49:52

Sorry to take the conversation off topic. =)

But I see that you have put almost 1500 miles on your five fingers. I have looked at getting a pair and wanted to know how they feel on rougher dirt roads and the like.

From Michelle on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 15:55:00

Sasha,

I've tried to add favorites to my blog and used two different browsers, safari and flock but it will only place Lybi and the rest that I type don't show up. Any suggestions?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 17:48:28

Michelle:

Go to the Support Forum paste exactly what you are typing into the favorite blogs fields. For future reference, always use the support forum when asking for technical help. That way if I am not available, somebody else can get to it.

From adamr on Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 22:50:43

sasha, nate pennington joined the blog. that's a good hit for the site.

From James W on Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 18:10:31

I am curious - have you though any more about taking a FRB contingent to the LA Marathon? Sounds like Holt may be going, Dustin is considering it, and Lybi and I are planning on going with our family (if things work out with the friends we would stay with). I was just wondering if anyone else was still considering it. Granted, it is still 4 months away, but it never hurts to plan ahead . . . and I am very impressed at the number of miles you have put on your FiveFingers. I recall your having mentioned that there is a hole in one of them, but that it was not getting any bigger.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.340.000.000.0011.34

A.M. Ran early in the morning. Cold and dark. Jeff and I were asleep. I ran the first 4 with him. Then not much faster afterwards. 1:07:40 for 8 miles.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:00. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:17. Jacob ran 200 in 2:02. 2 with Benjamin in 16:53 with the first 1.5 with Jenny in 13:15.

Five Fingers - 1486.13 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.342.000.000.0013.34

A.M. Ran 6 with Jeff in 47:54. At least we beat the 8:00 guy today, that is progress.

A.M-2. Paced little James in the Cougar Run 5 K in 18:58. His goal was to break 19:00. The course was accurate, but had no mile marks, I forgot to bring my Garmin, so I paced him by feel. I estimated speed-wise he was capable of a low 18:00 and tried to not undershoot figuring if he dies he dies. Undershooting was a concern because it was cold, I was wearing a jacket and tights, I had just eaten breakfast, and I was in the mood to jog. James was making me work in the first 1 mile, a little less in the second, and the last mile I was just yelling at him the entire time, so he must have slowed down. Mike West, who recently joined the blog helped me in the effort, and Adam R was out for a run and joined us in the last half mile as well. Derek Taylor won in 15:34.

When I came back, I ran with Jacob (200 in 2:03, not counting towards mileage), and a mile with Julia in 9:57.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:24, had Jenny with us for the first 1.5 in 13:18. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:36. 

Five Fingers - 1492.13 miles.

T4 Racer - 689.27 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Comments
From Teena on Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 09:20:52

Very Nice!!

Btw ... thanks for adding the options to "edit" and "delete" comments. Wonderful.

Have a great Sunday!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.340.000.000.0012.34

A.M. Ran with Derek. Total of 8 miles in 1:00:29. Ran into a couple on the trail and they joined us. Their names were Stephanie and Tim, a brother and a sister from Burley, Idaho. Both BYU students. They ran with us most of the way. We also briefly ran with a lady from New Zealand, I think her name was Debbie if I heard it right.

A.M -2. Julia got busted for sucking her thumb in a sneaky way when she thought I was not looking. We do not tolerate this type of behavior - when a child knowingly does something wrong thinking he can get away with it because nobody can see him. Her punishment was a multitude of jobs around the house, but she could always cancel the remainder of the list with a sub-10:00 mile including the very first job. She cleaned the living room, then cleaned two toilets. After that she decided to go for a sub-10:00 mile, and we ran 9:21. I pushed Joseph in the stroller.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:51. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:05. We saw a girl running ahead of us. I challenged Jenny to catch her before we got off the trail. She hesitated, then said she'd do it for a carob bar. I agreed, she picked up to about 6:00 pace for 0.1 mile and accomplished the task. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:07. Jacob ran 200 meters in 1:58.

Five Fingers - 1503.97 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From jhorn on Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 18:34:45

I can appreciate your creative discipline, let's just hope that using running as a punishment doesn't make for viewing running as unpleasurable. Nice to see you at the 5K, it would have made my day to catch up to you, even knowing you were just jogging.

From jona on Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 20:44:08

Sasha, I don't know if its new, but if it is, I love that you can edit your comments. (I can think of at least one way I could have not seen it, so if its not new, good feature anyway!)

From air darkhorse on Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 03:23:34

Sasha, I agree with JHorn, Your kids will grow to hate running with a passion that way. By the way studies show that most kids will grow out of that behavior in time on their own. Time, love and patience..

From tarzan on Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:16:18

I love that you run with your kids. Good thing you weren't my parent - I'd have been cleaning house all the time. Oh wait - I did that anyway to escape my mother's anger. :)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.840.002.500.0013.34

A.M. Ran with Derek. Jogged 4.125, ran 2.5 tempo (second half of my standard 5 mile tempo on the Provo River Trail) in 13:51, then back to Derek, then back to the house with him, then some more to make it 10. Not sure what to think about the tempo. I was holding 5:30 pace on flat parts, a little slower on the mini-rollers, felt like I could sustain it for some time, maybe if I slowed down a bit, but definitely could not go any faster because I tried and nothing happened. It was cold. I was wearing Five Fingers, and I ran alone. One thing for sure, no spectacular results. But at the same time it could be and it has been worse.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:53. 2 with Benjamin in 17:12. Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 12:53. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:52. Jacob did 200 in 2:12.

Five Fingers - 1513.97 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 12:54:18

Sasha you doing anymore marathon's or HM's this year?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 13:35:58

Kory - no.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.340.000.000.0013.34

A.M. Ran with Jeff and Michelle. Total of 10 miles in 1:22:27. It was dark and cold.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:30. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:07. Jacob ran 200 in 2:08. 2 with Benjamin in 17:35, Jenny did 1.5 with us in 13:24.

Five Fingers - 1523.97 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From wheakory on Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 23:48:01

Sasha what's your next goal, and your training strategy going to be? Are you still going to try and do 5:00 minute miles until your exhausted?

I'm not sure what I'm going to do for the next little while, other than do base work and then do speed work when I feel like it.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 14:24:38

The plan for the next several weeks:

About 80 miles a week. 2.5 tempo on Tuesday, 4x400 on Thursday, and a 10 mile tempo on Saturday. See if there is improvement week after week. Will consider myself in good health to train once 2.5 tempo is at 5:25 pace, 4x400 averages under 70, and the 10 mile tempo is at 5:45 pace average, and I can run the last 2.5 at 5:35 pace.

Once in good health, speed workouts:

Tuesday 10 mile tempo at 5:50 pace with a strong finish. Thursday 8x400 averaging under 70 in the AM, and 8x10 seconds up 15% grade in the PM. Saturday 15 mile tempo at 5:50 pace.

Do that while there are improvements. Once the improvements stop, re-evaluate.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.340.000.001.0011.34

A.M. 8 miles with Jeff. Did 4x400 with 200 recovery in the middle. 74.4 - 73.4 - 74.9 - 72.2. Did not feel the power and had a hard time pushing myself into the zone where I have to breathe very hard. But it will come in a few weeks.

I observed about a year and a half ago that "lactic intolerance" for me has a negative effect on the "threshold pace". I put those terms in quotes. After studying and pondering the issue, I realize now there is no such thing as "lactic intolerance" or "anaerobic threshold". Lactate is fuel, the more of it in and of itself will not slow you down. They say acidity of the muscle can slow you down, but there is some evidence that in and of itself it does not. I saw a study where they demonstrated a muscle immersed in acid could actually contract better when activated with an electric stimulus. Threshold pace defined as the pace when lactate levels stabilize does not exist - there is always a gradual drift. There was a study where a group of Kenyan runners pushed their lactate levels very high to where the conventional wisdom would indicate they should not have been able to continue to run like this for long, but they kept going and were comfortable.

To say the runner slowed down because he had too much lactic acid is like to say he slowed down because he was breathing too hard, or because his VO2 went up too high, or because his RER stayed above 1 for too long, or, the plainest of all but equally meaningful explanation - because he was running too fast. All of the above happens when you start running really fast, but what really is the driving cause rather than an accompanying phenonemon? And is there really just one cause? I suspect it is not as simple as we would like it to be.

Nevertheless, there exists a reality that when a trained runner starts pushing much harder than his half marathon race pace, he cannot sustain it for long, and the harder he pushes, the harder he begins to breathe, and the less he can sustain the pace for. When we say "too much lactic acid", even if we are wrong, it could still be useful for practical purposes. There is some inhibitor X, and regardless what substance we believe it to be, and even whether it is just one substance, or maybe just a certain perception of fatigue that results from a combination of substances, does not really matter. The purpose of training is to overcome the inhibitor X.

So my theory goes like this. When you run at your half-marathon race pace, the inhibitor X levels constantly fluctuate. When they reach a critical level during that fluctuation you will slow down. The faster the pace, the higher the peak of inhibitor X. When you do fast quarters you have higher levels of inhibitor X. If you do them fairly regularly, you learn to fight inhibitor X for a minute or so. But that minute is critical when trying to sustain a slower pace if the inhibitor X peak at that pace spikes once in a while too high. Then using the ability to deal with the spike you developed during quarters you can go through it without slowing down and then it drops, and thus you maintain a faster pace.

However, this is only applicable if you have a solid aerobic base. Otherwise, inhibitor X cannot go down if you keep running the same speed for too long. The peak will last longer than a minute and you will slow down with out of breath and "I want to puke" symptoms.

 

T4 Racer - 697.27 miles

P.M. Helped Jeff pace his wife Kimia through her first 5 K time trial in 55:47. She did it essentially untrained, off a sedentary life style, and with zero athletic background or mindset. So it was quite a challenge for her - mostly mental. Both Jeff and I agreed that if a trained runner's brain were driving her body, she would have run under 40:00. After some thought, now I believe as fast as 33:00. The problem was that she was afraid to throw up, while an experienced runner even completely out of shape will push to throw up so he can relieve himself and keep going feeling better.

0.34 with Joseph in 4:17. Jacob ran 200 in 2:25 - slower today because it was getting dark. 1 with Julia in 10:45. 2 with Benjamin in 17:16, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:16.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From highway61 on Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 01:20:34

Interesting to consider what the inhibitor is. Perhaps it's a brain-based inhibitor, such as an inability for the brain to send the right kind, frequency, or magnitude of signals to the rest of the body from the brain. Of course, if that's true, it begs the question of what might trigger that limitation in the first place.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.840.000.000.0013.84

A.M. Started the run with Jeff and Derek. Ran with them for 8 miles. Then was planning to run 2 more, but ran into Brandon Ashcroft, and he was going a little further, so I ran with him. We went to Geneva road and then came back to my house. He stopped briefly to meet my family. I joked that I went for a run and found a Russian-speaking souvenir - Brandon served a mission in the Ukraine (Donetsk), and interestingly enough had served near my birth place. I was born in a little town Rubezhnoye near Lugansk, but did not stay there long. Three months later my mom brought me to Moscow where I lived until I was 20.

I think this is about fifth time in the last two years that I ran into somebody during a run that was a Russian speaker.

Total time for the run was 1:20:50 - 10.5 miles.

Five Fingers - 1547.47 miles.

P.M. Jacob ran 200 in 2:08. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:08. 1 with Julia in 11:03. 2 with Benjamin in 17:32. Jenny ran the first 1.5 with us in 13:11.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Maria on Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 19:53:52

I never imagined there are so many Russian speakers in Utah, although with it being the center of LDS church it makes perfect sense due to the mission activity. My husband is from Donetsk and I would never think there could be LDS movement there, but times certainly have changed since I visited one and only time in 1990. Not getting into religious aspect, I think it would be a very positive thing for Russia and its neighbours if more people were practicing LDS code if for no other reason than improvement in the drinking department. I wonder how popular is LDS in the CIS countries - do you have any data, Sasha?

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 22:12:21

Maria:

According to

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/contact-us/russia

there are 19,543 LDS members in Russia. That would the total number of members on record. Activity rate is probably about 20-30%, although I am guessing from Church average. Some people get baptized, then fall away later, some might come back.

In the Ukraine, according to

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/contact-us/ukraine

there are 10,394 LDS members.

Belarus does not currently allow proselyting, so we do not have a presence there other than service missionaries. I believe it is the same in the Middle Asian countries.

We have 153 members in Georgia and 2,650 members in Armenia. The missionary work is much livelier in Armenia - my neighbor had served a mission there. He is a rare case - fluent in English and in Armenian, but not in Russian.

There are 927 members in Estonia, 966 in Latvia, and 833 in Lithuania. Our neighbor across the street is an ethnic Russian from Lithuania who converted to the LDS faith several years ago in Vilnus.

I believe if we could convert 20% of Russia this would help close the gap between Russian men and women in the marathon due to the improvements in the alcohol department you have mentioned and in the tobacco department as well. Having a sense of purpose should not be forgotten either. I predict we would see 40 sub-2:10 men from Russia.

Now, how do we convert 20% of Russia? We need to set a good example. Maria, when are you going to meet with the missionaries?

From Maria on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 15:51:30

Thanks Sasha, this is very interesting. These are small numbers, compared to overall size of population in Russia and Ukraine, but it's probably growing. As for me, I am not conversion material, and it holds for any religion. I have tried, so I'm not talking without experience. I would classify myself as agnostic. While I respect and admire many values LDS Church (and some other world religions) teaches I also have fundamental differences with it. Some of the ideas are not acceptable to me. I did think several times in my life that it would be much easier had I had the faith in God, but the truth is that I don't. And I learned that it cannot be forced if you don't feel it in your heart.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 19:29:50

Maria - telling me that somebody cannot have faith in God is even worse than telling me somebody lacks the natural ability to qualify for Boston. I would at least be willing to admit that if you have only one leg, qualifying for Boston would be difficult. But I know that all of us are children of God, even those who do not believe in Him, that He loves us, that He wants us to return to his presence, that we cannot return without having developed a measure of faith, and that he is just. The very reason He sent us here is to develop faith. Therefore, there is no way in the world He would leave somebody without some measure of a gift of faith. It may be dormant, it may take work to develop, but if there is enough humility and a sincere desire, He will grant the gift.

So, as you may already understand, your statement offered me an interesting challenge, which, if you do not mind, I will try to tackle.

Question number one - while you may not believe in God as defined by Christianity, will you agree that we do have an intelligent creator of some kind?

From Maria on Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 19:22:13

Sasha, if we continue this discussion, we risk breaking the number of comments in one day record! To answer your question, - no I do not necessarily agree that we (or Universe as a wider entity including us) have an intelligent creator. It is possible, but it's also possible that we evolved by natural selection alone without any divine intervention, for example through DNA mutations over millions of generations. Our current scientific explorations are not at the stage where this mystery can be explained and proven, and so it remains a mystery, a very puzzling one indeed. But I don't see any convincing evidence that would make me accept that we do have an intelligent creator. So I am undecided.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 20:44:18

OK, good start. Follow-up question - do you consider it necessary to have scientific proof for you to accept something as true? Or in other words, does science have the monopoly on truth?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.349.750.250.0017.34

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Tyler, and Brandon. We did a 2.62 warm-up, then a tempo run. I went 10, Jeff and Brandon did 5, and Tyler did 3 because he was concerned about the shin. The plan was to go not slower than 6:00 but not much faster. I put the not-much-faster clause in it because I knew from how I felt this week that much faster would be difficult.

The course was the standard 5 mile tempo twice, so the same 2.5 mile stretch 4 times, 3 180 turns.

Total time: 58:59.7

Splits by the mile: 5:56 - 6:00 - 5:46 - 5:54 - 5:57 - 6:01 - 5:49 - 5:56 - 5:57 - 5:47

Splits by 2.5 - 14:49 - 14:44 - 14:47 - 14:38.

I felt OK, though not great in the first 5 miles. When Jeff pushed the pace a bit, it felt harder, but not miserable. When Brandon started struggling I was able to cheer him in Russian. Russian is better suited for getting somebody to go faster when he is in pain. There is a rich variety of powerful two-word phrases that can motivate a struggling runner. To communicate the same idea in English you would need four or five words, and your sentences are at least twice as long. Most of those phrases start with the word nado which is often translated as "you must" or "you need", but the original word has no "you" in it. It just means there exists an abstract need or requirement that is above you or anybody else. You are not a part of it, it is above you, and you'd better meet it or else...

Felt OK for another 2 miles, about the same as earlier, but then all of a sudden 88 quarters started feeling very difficult. I was not breathing very hard, but I felt like I had a tongue in my quads and it was tasting concentrated lemon juice the entire time. That feeling is not there when everything is normal until I start hitting 82 second quarters. So 5:55 felt like 5:30, except for the breathing.

At 5 miles I thought that going under 59:00 would be easy. At 7.5 I thought it would be difficult but doable. With a mile to go I was not so sure. With a quarter to go I thought it would be a miracle. So I gave it all I had. My mom used to say "I see Paris" when she tasted something very sour. Well, the last quarter was only 82, but I still saw Paris. The "Paris" effort got me a little bit under 59:00, so a small victory.

Ran 1.38 cool down, got home and took the kids to do the trail cleanup. I noticed that the most common type of trash was cigarette butts.

Then ran with Jacob and Joseph. Jacob ran 200 in 1:54. Joseph did his 0.34 loop in 4:08.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 10:48. 2 with Benjamin in 17:20. Jenny ran the first 1.5 with us in 13:20.

T4 Racer - 711.27 miles

Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From wheakory on Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 23:52:27

Great run. I did some faster miles myself today. Just two though. How's the quads feeling now after SGM?

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 12:58:38

The quads have felt fine after 3 days. The problem is somewhere else.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 10.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.630.000.000.5013.13

A.M. 10.1 alone in 1:16:43. Did 8x100 around 18-19 seconds in the middle. Felt fresher, but this could be deceptive as I never went long enough fast enough to really test. But today was not the day to test, the day is tomorrow when I am going to run 2.5 tempo.

Five Fingers holes on the right shoe are slightly bigger, I think, but my skin over the holes is getting rougher as well. Last week, I felt blister pain in the hole area after the runs. Today it was just a minor irritation. The left shoe is still intact, although the sole is getting thinner. So far no performance improvements from running in Five Fingers. But I like the feel of it. And it helps preserve the socks. Training in Five Fingers - the Ultimate Blister Protection!

P.M. Jacob did 200 in 2:01. 1 mile with Julia in 8:49. She did a progressive negative split: 2:30, 2:15, 2:09 and 1:55. 2.03 with Benjamin and Jenny to the library via scenic route in 18:03. 

Five Fingers - 1557.57 miles.

Night Sleep Time: 7.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From huans32 on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 13:17:41

Looks like your using those new shoes. How long have you been test running them?? I dont think they will work for me but interested to hear you take on them.

From nfroerer on Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 13:20:47

Sasha - you are a beast. Keep it up!

From Lybi on Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 00:04:57

Good heavens! Soon you will be running barefoot. Good luck on your test tomorrow.

I'm getting excited about your little family growing...I'm going to TRY not to pester her about it...as in "So Sarah, how are you feeling TODAY?" day after day. I remember how much that bugs. Give her a hug for me!

From tarzan on Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 17:58:42

I don't notice much running difference in the FiveFingers - but get a better calf workout with them and love the 'padding' feeling I get when I run in them.

From sarah on Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 20:19:12

Ha ha..I had a feeling I should read Sasha's comments today...I got to spy on you Lybi!! You are so funny. Sasha is going to get mad at me for posting this message which is obviously just to you and not in a PM...oh well. I am feeling just fine today...:( In fact I felt so good I took my kids to the library,made sugar cookies with them in the afternoon and a delicious dinner at night. When Jacob saw the cookies he thought it was someone's birthday...maybe he knows something....Thanks for caring...have a good one.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.190.002.500.0013.69

A.M. 10.1 alone. Did a 2.5 mile tempo after 6.2 miles of easy running. Again had a hard time running 5:30 pace. First quarter was 83, and it felt hard. Bad hard, not "I am going to warm into it", but rather, "I do not know if I can maintain it". Pretty much exact duplicate of last week's tempo with splits differing by no more than a second at every point, and the total time being 0.7 slower.

Total time - 13:51.9. Splits by 0.5: 2:45, 2:46, 2:46, 2:48, 2:46.

Tried to kick in the last quarter, but there was zero kick. Could not speed up above pace. Legs felt sour. Could not make myself breath energetically no matter how hard I tried.

Afterwards took Jacob for 200 in 1:51.

P.M. Fast Running Van had a problem with the brakes. Took it to Computune. Ran back with Benjamin , and Jenny - 2.25 in 19:58. 1 with Julia in 10:03. Decided to give my body a chance to take a nap, and it did. Felt very good after the nap. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:18.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.380.000.620.0013.00

A.M. Ran 8 with Jeff, then added 2 to finish off 10. Total time was 1:14:28. Was feeling energetic, especially for the dark conditions. Decided to test the effects of yesterday's nap. The plan was to run a tempo 0.5. We got to 0.5 and I was concerned about being able to see the mark, so we went further to 1 K. Felt very good. The time was 3:20. The stride felt good - wide, relaxed, powerful. Felt like I could run like this for a while. A positive change from yesterday.

A.M - 2: Took Jacob for 200 in 1:48. 1 with Julia in 9:43. 2 with Benjamin in 15:06. Pushed Jacob in the stroller. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 11:46.

P.M. Took another nap.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.590.001.001.0013.59

A.M. Ran with Derek. He went 7, I did 10. Did 4x400 in the middle with 200 rest. 75.1, 73.5, 73.2, 72.6. The last one was uphill (1% grade). Felt much better than a week ago, but the times did not reflect it. I was not sure if this was due to colder temperatures and leaves on the ground, or due to no change in fitness. I wondered for a few miles, then was tired of wondering and decided to run a tempo mile from DI bridge to where I get off the trail. It has a slight net downhill, but it does roll enough to make it fair. Did the splits of 84, 82, 82, and 78 for the total of 5:26. First quarter was up, second was flat, third was net down, but you had to go under 800 N bridge and the last one was a steady 0.5% down. Felt strong, did not want to stop.

A.M -2 : Took the Fast Running Van to Computune to investigate the ABS light. Ran back with Benjamin and Jenny. 2.25 miles in 19:50. Ran into a girl that had served a mission in Rostov-na-Donu in Russia.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:54, 0.34 with Joseph in 4:09. Jacob woke up from a nap and was crying and being difficult. I asked him if he wanted to go for a run. He calmed down, and went. He ran 2:00 for 200. Got points for this from Sarah.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 17:46:04

DI bridge is the same place where you had me do a MP mile when I stayed at your house correct? But I ran it a little faster than MP. I now can visualize what your trail is like. Nice run Sasha.

Your ABS light could be a bad sensor or fuse problem.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 18:30:14

Yes, Kory, that same mile. The ABS light turned out to be caused by a bad wire.

From wheakory on Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 18:32:49

That's great Sasha I'm glad it wasn't too expensive. Thank God for that blessing.

From tarzan on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:15:28

sounds like you must be running on the Provo River Parkway Trail. I used to do a lot of training on that when I was living with my father after I separated from my ex.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.890.000.000.0010.89

A.M. Sarah woke up with contractions around 2:00 AM. We figured it was real labor, called the midwife, called Luz, she came and got the kids, and filled the inflatable pool. After some work on Sarah's part, William Alexander Pachev was born at 4:34 AM this morning. Birth weight - 8 lb 8 oz, height 19 inches.

Jeff got a special privilege from being my running partner this morning. He was the first non-family/non-midwife person to see William. That's his PR for the youngest person he's ever seen. Then we went for a run with a stop at Luz's house to drop off the soy milk for the kids' breakfast. Jacob is allergic to cow's milk. Then Sarah called me on the cell phone and said she was bleeding. So we ran back. Checked on her, she said she was still not feeling good, so we went around the block with the plan to check on her once a mile. She called again after a mile, and this time she had a strong contraction, passed out a couple of large clots, stood up too fast and nearly passed out, and got really scared. So I stayed with her. Her midwife came, gave her some medicine, she is now taking a nap, and William is taking one as well right next to me.

Pictures:

William

P.M. Jacob ran 200 in 2:17, ran 0.34 with Joseph in 4:19, 1 with Julia in 9:34, 1.5 with Jenny in 13:17, 2 with Benjamin in 17:52. The blog now has the long awaited shoe manager. 



Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 6.05
Night Sleep Time: 4.00Nap Time: 2.00Total Sleep Time: 6.00
Comments
From Dale on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:45:58

Congratulations to both of you!

From Burt on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:56:01

What a day! Take care of that family and congratulations!

From wheakory on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:58:54

Congratulations to you and Sarah. That a wonderful blessing. Take care of the family. Sasha you are a very good daddy, and a dedicated running.

From cody draper on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 13:24:19

Congrats Sasha and Family!

From jefferey on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 14:19:17

2.5 hours later baby shows up. Sounds like a deal for Sarah 8).Congrats! Sweet! You gotta love babies. Good call on staying with your wife and stopping the run. My wife would kill me if I tried that.

From Metcalf Running on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 14:56:50

Congratulations to you both, he is a beautiful baby :) Take care... I hope Sarah is feeling better soon.

Lori

From Tom on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 15:09:10

Congratulations!!! Looks like another fine addition to your family. Take good care of Sarah and William. Actually I'm sure you will.

From RivertonPaul on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 15:13:41

Congratulations. Best wishes to all.

From josse on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 16:03:29

Very cute!! He looks like a Pachev:)

From Maria on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 19:18:44

Congratulations, Sasha and Sarah! Best wishes for Sarah's recovery.

From marion on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 21:01:16

Great news! Congratulations!!

From tarzan on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 21:06:39

Congratulations on your beautiful new son! I'm glad he finally made it. I hope Sarah gets some rest and heals up quickly.

From Jon on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 21:16:27

Congrats!

Just wondering, how long after the baby came did you go running? Is that a fastest post-baby running PR?

From rockness18 on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 23:04:43

Congratulations!

From Paul Petersen on Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 23:55:57

Congrats!! Best wishes for Sarah's recovery.

From Lybi on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 00:23:12

Congratulations!!! WOW! He is adorable already--look at those cheeks!

From James W on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 01:09:03

Congratulations, Sasha, Sarah and new baby William! I agree with Lybi, he is adorable. How you managed to get the shoe manager implemented as well is beyond me!

From snoqualmie on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 13:10:49

I am so happy for you and your family!! I hope Sarah recovers quickly. What handsome young person he is! Best wishes to all your family.

From Jon on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 13:55:26

Sasha- the shoe manager is nice, but is it possible to put it at the bottom of the posts and to make it a color other than red? Maybe yellow or something not too bright? I keep looking at everyone's blogs and thinking they ran a race due to the red at the top of their post!

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 14:15:24

Everybody, thanks.

Jon:

No, this was not a PR. I ran within about the same time from Jacob's birth. One of the advantages of home birth. Regarding color and position, will play around and see what I can do. Suggestions in the form of RGB for this and other colors are welcome. If you need education about RGB, visit the link below:

http://htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/color.cgi

James:

William deserves some credit for getting the Shoe Manager out. He was being fussy yesterday afternoon, so I took him to the computer room. Turned out that he really liked one Russian kid song about a boy that says "We have not studied this in school, and we have not been given this in our homework" when asked to dig potatoes or play his harmonica. But when they tell him it's time to eat he says he can handle it. So I was able to keep William asleep for a long time while I finished the Shoe Manager.

From Kelli on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 16:12:38

Congratulations to you and your wife!! I am so happy he is here and happy and healthy! Take care!!

From Camille on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 17:51:33

Congratulations, Sasha! I love the pictures. He is beautiful.

From Jennifer Pachev on Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 18:26:21

He is cute . When I hold him I almost can't put him down. He looks good enough to eat.

From MichelleL on Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 22:23:36

You really ought to put out an announcement for us all. I happened to see your post earlier this weekend, but I could have gone a whole week in the dark ! Congrats anyway.

From Dustin on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 08:37:20

Congrats and hope all is well

From JeffC on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 11:36:03

Congratulations you two! That is a very beautiful new baby.

BTW, Sasha, I love the new shoe manager.

From Carolyn on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 11:39:45

Congratulations! What a beautiful little boy.

From Superfly on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 13:13:24

I'm a little late but Congrats to the whole family!

From jtshad on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 16:52:23

Congrats on the new addition to the family! Hope everyone is doing well.

From mattk on Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 17:36:27

Wow, I'm really behind. Congrats Pachev family!! well done. I've got to come up with better excuses on why I can't get out to run!

From Lucia on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 09:46:42

Better late than never, CONGRATULATIONS!!! Thank you for the pictures - William certainly looks adorable. What a joy!!!

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:03:09

What an adorable little one! Glad to see mommy and baby are doing great!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.340.000.000.0013.34

A.M. Ran with Jeff. We did a total of 10 miles in 1:14:26 with a couple of breaks in the middle to check on Sarah and to change Jacob's diaper. Then 1 with Julia in 8:42.

A.M-2.  200 with Jacob in 1:51 (not counting towards mileage), 0.34 with Joseph in 3:56, 2 with Benjamin in 17:32 with Jenny running the last 1.5 in 13:07.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Jon on Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 15:57:31

Sasha- maybe you can try a grey for the shoe tracker, too. RGB: #808080. Something like that- not too bright, and especially not the same red as race reports.

By the way, we have a new fastest female on the blog who can go on the top runners page- Lisa Paxton from North Logan. She's running with the Logan group, now. Lisap is her blog name. 2:45 PR. She was very interested when Cody told her about the racing team, though I'm not sure how you and Steve will be modifying it in 2009.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Managed to get the kids ready for church. Not without accidents - got some shampoo into the eyes of Joseph and Jacob at the same time, so they screamed in unison. But we got to church on time. The kids were very good in church. The biggest behavior problem I had to deal with was Joseph flipping pages of the Book of Mormon reader during a prayer.

The highlight of the day was the dinner that Josse and her sister Erica brought us. Whole wheat pasta with sauce, chicken, salad, it was great.

At night Joseph has been getting stories the Daddy Way (TM). I ask him what he wants to see, and then we find it on YouTube. Usually it is some kind of a big machine - dump truck, fire truck, tractor, freight train, garbage truck, etc. I've been learning a lot. For example, I learned what they do to get a tractor out of the mud - attach special poles to the side of the wheels so the tractor in a way walks out of the mud. 

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.340.001.100.0013.44

A.M. 10.1 alone in 1:09:56. Did a mile pickup in the middle in 5:30 from the fishing parking lot in the direction of Geneva road. This has a slight uphill in the last quarter. Did not feel the greatest, but did not feel too bad either.

Afterwards took Jacob for 200 in 1:55, and Joseph for 0.34 in 3:43, which is his record.

Ate leftovers from the dinner Josse made for us last night for lunch. Sarah was having a hard time with William and finally was convinced to try Daddy's (TM) method - alternate 15 minutes off, 5 minutes on if needed, and it worked. He was happy after the first round.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:45, 2 with Benjamin in 16:40. His time was 16:42. He started singing BINGO towards the end, and I asked him he would be willing to try daddy BINGO pace for the last 0.1 miles. He was OK for the most of the pickup, but fell back a bit at the end. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:13 with us.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From spencer on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 16:25:58

Sasha, Thanks for the Blog. You've put together a helpful tool for all of us. Im looking forward to keeping better track of my workouts and the extra motivation and all the tips. Thanks.

From tarzan on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 18:26:57

Has William been running yet? Or just the walk to the corner?

Sasha - is it possible to request a blog header on my blog like you have?

I like how you updated your personal section already with the baby!

From luzylew on Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 19:45:28

I'm so glad to hear you have so many (TM) daddy methods....It sounds like a fun time to be a daddy over there at the Pachev's. I hope you all are doing well!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.170.002.500.0013.67

A.M. Ran with Derek. After 4.12 warm-up ran the standard 2.5 tempo in 13:49.6. The first mile felt very easy, the stride was wide and relaxed, and I did not feel like I was pushing. Got 5:26 vs a very strained 5:31 last week. However, after that I started struggling and slowed down to 5:36 pace. There was a slight uphill in the last mile.

Not sure what was happening. I was slightly overdressed because I was afraid of catching a cold, which would be bad at this time. Derek thinks the jacket was acting like a sail and slowing me down. I also got warm. But at the same time, those things could really be non-issues, and the fatigue might have been natural, or in other words the slow-down would have happened regardless.

Assuming the worst, I would have to conclude that the neurological power is coming back, but the acidic resistance (the term I just made up for the ability of the brain to push the muscle in spite of increased muscle acidity) is still lacking. Which is actually encouraging. Acidic resistance can be improved with anaerobic work (quarters), but improving the power is more difficult. So I'd rather lack the acid resistance.

Nevertheless, I was happy that the overall time was 2 seconds faster than last week. I'll take any improvement I can get.

Derek ran 8, I ran some extra and got 10.13.

P.M. 200 with Jacob 1:50, 1 with Julia in 9:35.

P.M -2: 2 miles with Benjamin in 16:14 with Jenny running the last 1.5 in 11:56. Jenny actually was not planning on getting her Lunch With Daddy qualifier for the week, but then she started feeling good half way and picked up the pace to sub-8:00. She had 8:29 at the mile, and then with 600 to go she asked if she had a shot for  LWDQ. I told her if she floored it she'd have a chance, so she did. Her last two quarters were 1:46, and 1:41, and she made it with 4 seconds to spare.

Took Joseph for a run to set up my home teaching appointment. 0.27 out, 0.27 back with a short break to chat in between - total time 6:50. Following a very established tradition in our church set it for 8:00 PM on the last day of the month. This reminded me of a joke:

Two elders are discussing the subject of home teaching. One says - "We take our responsibility very seriously and always go the first day of the month." The other responds: "We do even better than that - we go one day  before you do!"

 


Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.13
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From air darkhorse on Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 00:24:08

Sasha, Why aren't my two newest entries showing up?

From air darkhorse on Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 00:32:36

Never mind, it's up now. Thanks.

From Phoenix on Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 14:10:05

I would be stunned if you are entering even the utmost outer realms of acidosis at those paces.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 15:57:42

Eric:

What do you think then triggers the slow down? I run the first mile in 5:26 feeling great. Then I slow down to 5:36, the pace starts to feel like the end of a quarter repeat, and for the life of me cannot go any faster even for 100 meters, and I did try.

Did not have an HRM on me, but since this has happened many times before, I have a good idea of the HR. By the end of the first mile it probably drifted up to about 150-152. Then in the next 0.5 mile it got up to around 158-160 and stayed in that range to the end.

My max HR is 174, it takes running 5:00 pace for a mile to get there, and I reach the RER of 1.06. That's on a good day. On a bad day, I hit normal HR for the pace, maybe only a beat or two per minute higher sometimes, but just cannot stay for very long in the faster range. On a bad day I can run 5:00 pace for a little bit if my starting HR is 130 or below, but if it is already 160 I cannot run even as slow as 5:20 for as short as 100 meters. Max HR test on a bad day will probably give me 163-164, and I have don e a very close emulation a number of times - from a standing start, 5:00 pace until failure, then the best pace until I get to 5 miles. The failure happened between 0.5 and 0.75 with the HR only at 163, and it was the max HR for the whole run.

On a good day - can race a 10 K with HR at 165, half at 162, full marathon at 157. Have been able to close a flat 10 K in SLC with a 5:04 mile and a 69 second quarter.

On a bad day - any time I bring HR over 160 the pace starts to feel unsustainable. On a good day, HR over 160 causes heavy breathing and I feel the legs working, but the pace is sustainable.

In VO2 tests I've reached RER of 1.00 in the 160-163 HR range.

When dehydrated or aerobically unconditioned I can sustain a higher HR for longer while, of course, running a slower than normal pace for that HR. Also, in those circumstances, the effort at the same HR feels a lot easier.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.102.000.000.0013.10

A.M. 10.1 alone in 1:09:48. Did a 2 mile pickup from 7.1 to 9.1 in 11:55. Considered running all 3 at that pace, but decided to remain on the side of caution. Noticed that at 6:00 pace I am barely breathing, but it does not feel easy because of the muscular strain and the need for focus.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:23 with Jenny running the first 1.5 in 13:17. 1 with Julia in 9:28. 

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Phoenix on Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 20:51:09

In response to our discussion on your other post:

I suspect the fatigue is still neurological in origin. A runner of your caliber, training history, and "slow" phenotype does go acidotic at 5 and 1/2 minutes miles.

Your body has probably habituated to your current (as in month in and month out) training load. Have you considered periodizing a little or making some other training adjustment to make the jump to the next level?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 22:46:55

Eric:

I have no doubt there is some neural failure involved. The question I have is why in the world the behavior mimics the symptoms of the lack of aerobic fitness so closely. The neurological failure on a bad day always corresponds with HR over 160.

I have noticed that doing 400 meter repeats reduces the probability of bad days defined earlier. It may not be the acid, but there is some neurological inhibitor X at work that you get more of the faster you go that correlates with the HR. When I run lots and really fast, I learn to resist it better, and there is the memory - I can do no speed work, not even tempos for as long as 6 months with no deterioration in performance, and then the bad days start happening more often. There is also a limit - after about 2-3 months of speed work my ability to deal with this inhibitor X does not improve any more.

I am still curious to know what this inhibitor X might be.

From bc on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 00:57:40

Sasha, Can you make it for the USATF election and annual meeting Thursday night at 7, Murray Library. It is important that we get a big group in attendance.

Bill

From Phoenix on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:44:03

Sasha,

I don't think what you are experiencing mimics a lack of aerobic fitness. If aerobic fitness were lacking, your breathing would become extremely labored as fatigue overcame you. From what I've read, the opposite happens.

Besides corresponding to VO2, HR corresponds to neural output, probably even more so because stroke volume confounds HR. So, if you have a central governor operating on a hair trigger, it will shut you down via limiting neural output. This is likely to be dependent on cross some neural stress threshold.

I have the opposite problem you do. It is very, very easy for me to overtrain because my nervous system is easily hyperactivated. This not only applied to my running, but to my weightlifting also. My brother who ran 1:49 for 800m is also the same way. If I step on the gas too hard, I'll crank out so much "neural juice" that I'm left depleted and overtrained. This has been my downfall in the fast. I barely have to try to do this, so its a chronic battle for me to stay in control during speed work, or, if I let loose, to get in and out quickly. I think this is why at the end of a 5k can, where I have been running at "100%", I can still kick very hard. At the Homecoming 5K finishing on the track I closed in 26 (14,12--I hit the splits). I assure you I was suffering and hurting a lot during that race, but when I pulled the trigger, neural output soared.

Interestingly the Bulgarian weightlifting program, which routinely produces some of the best lifters in the world, stresses the importance of not "reaching competition levels of arousal in training." The transfers 100% to running.

I think in your case, you should find that speed that puts you right on the edge of neural failure. Run some intervals at the speed, and when you have the slighest perception that the clamps are about to come down, accelerate briefly, and then end the interval. Jog for a while and repeat. The idea is to manually overide the governor while you still have a choice but shut down before it assumes full executive control. Repeating such sessions may help you to reset it.

From Sahsa Pachev on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 16:01:20

As you know this is not a post from you but is really from RivertonPaul. I put your name in the name just to show that someone can mistakenly, or purposefully, post a comment as someone else and the it links to the named person's blog address. Once posted, I know of no way to correct the mistake as the erroneous poster. You may already be aware of this, but I appreciate the blog and wanted to point it out to you.

From RivertonPaul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 16:01:44

The last post was not from Sasha, but from me.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. 10 miles in 1:17:04, first 8 with Jeff. It was dark.

Contemplated the matter of who to vote for in the presidential elections. I have always voted Republican. Not so much because I like the Republican party but I did not feel it was right to vote for a candidate that supports abortion. In 2004, I liked the Republican presidential candidate for other reasons. This year I do not like either one. The two major party are giving me a choice between a guy that supports gay marriage and abortion, and a guy that has an number of extra-marital affairs on his record and left his wife to marry his lover. Both candidates are engaged in bad mouthing each other. I am sick and tired of this farce. What kind of choice is that? This is almost like the Soviet Union where you had only one candidate.

Fortunately, in the US we can do a little better than that. So I looked at others. I like Chuck Baldwin the best. Clean record in the extra-marital affair department, rarity nowadays. Firmly against abortion and gay marriage. Also rarity nowadays. Interestingly enough, up until 1980 he was a Democrat. Then he became a Republican. In 2000 he left the Republican party. I do not believe his positions have changed much since he was a Democrat. He did not move, the major political parties did. This does tell us something about the times. One major plus - he is the only politician I've heard of that suggested some form of compensation for home schooling families. I have written about the subject to a local Republican state senator, but received no response. I read in a DesNews article a few years ago that public education costs the government at least $8K per year per child. Three of my children are school age. We make some significant sacrifices to home school. This currently saves the government $24K a year. In 5 years when William becomes school age it will be $48K a year. We do not even get a note of thanks from anybody, much less a financial incentive.

So while I do not 100% agree with all of his views, and realistically he cannot win this time, I'll cast my vote for him anyway at the very least to send a message to the two major parties that I want a real candidate, not a TV show character. I did not become an American citizen to vote like you did in the Soviet Union.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:52, 2 with Benjamin in 17:16, Jenny ran the first 1.5 with us in 13:06. Julia for the first time was able to ride her bike for a short distance - about 100 meters or so. She still cannot ride straight, but give her a week and she'll be bike-fluent. This is big help because once she can I'll be able to take as many as 5 kids on a run - three on bikes, and two in the stroller.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:06:27

I too agree that both candidates have their flaws, though I would pick Obama over McCain any day simply because McCain scares me and there is no way I would want to risk another draft. If McCain is elected I am most assuredly looking at homes in Canada. I thought about other candidates as well, but in an election that is going to be close, I feel like I'm obligated as a registered liberal to vote Democrat.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:13:37

Also as a prospective educator I tend to lean toward Democrats' platform with regards to education. Republicans don't appropriate as much $$ into the public school system, and as Bush has shown with his No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, their approach does our kids a gross disservice I think. Another necessary issue to consider is Republican's abstinence only approach to sex education in the U.S. It hasn't been effective and children are still sexually active at the same age if not younger than past generations. We need to teach protection over abstinence simply because most kids outside of faith-based instruction aren't going to adhere to a "not until youre married" approach you know? sorry I'll get off my soapbox. I'd be interested to have a discussion with FRBers though about prospective candidates and who to vote for on election day.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:33:59

Benn:

The reason it has not been effective is because one class that teaches abstinence cannot win a fight against everything else that teaches promiscuity. And when a school makes students doubt that God exists and there is a law and ultimate accountability, you have no hope against teenage hormones exposed to a barrage of immoral entertainment.

But we must do what is right. Comparing this to drugs - even if the drugs are offered on every corner, we still teach "say no to drugs", we do not teach "sterilize your needle".

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:46:57

See I have thought about the issue a lot especially in my education classes. I battle with issues a lot sitting there. I'm going to have to teach lessons that are essentially going against what I actually believe in. And yet by law I am not allowed to talk about my beliefs in the classroom. I agree with ultimate accountability, yet such a high proportion of our students, especially in urban settings do not prescribe to a religious conviction.

Also, as a history teacher I am going to have to address relevant questions kids have i.e. "Well wait a minute, Mr. Griffin. If Buddhism and Hinduism, and Greek Gods and Goddesses were around a lot longer than Christianity, what gives us the right to say we are the only true religion?"

If there's something I've decided to get around the faith issue, it's the idea that religion or belief in a "higher power" whatever that may be has served as a societal organizer and served to keep in check dissidents. Yet it seems that in the last generation our country has gotten away from the faith issue and has failed to address the radical shift and delinquency that is emerging in our nation's youth. I don't know. There are so many things wrong, but we can't force faith based judgment on others that perhaps might not have yet been exposed to it.

After all, the nation was founded by deists, who believed God kind of took a back seat to governing human will aye?

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:53:31

I like Chuck Balwin too. I'm not in 100% agreement with him on everything, but with enough of the big issues to get my vote. The way I see it, he's the only candidate who's not a socialist.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:55:54

How is Socialism necessarily a bad thing though? I'd rather everyone be at the same level and achieve success, then the rich continue to grow richer, and the poor poorer. Look at Scandinavians.. they are the happiest people in the world and most are Socialist in structure.

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:05:12

If I succeed, why should I punished? Why can't I freely give the money I earned to those I choose to give it to?

Regarding the Scandinavians, I have not talked to any or read any studies, so I can't comment on that.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:23:19

One reason this country is so screwed up: capitalism. It's based on the idea of competition, but what ends up happening is that a few make the big bucks, everyone else is screwed and left behind. They say if you work hard enough you can get what you want. It's not true, and then you have everyone "living the American Dream" buying SUVs and houses they can't afford.

Socialism would be better than a capitalist system that results in too many people being left behind.

Same thing is being proposed of education; Republicans want to instate Vouchers, i.e. you get to decide where your tax money goes to which school. What will happen then? Urban city schools will continue to get shafted and suburban schools will continue to profit.

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:37:02

Benn - I used to think EXACTLY as you do. I voted for Nader in 2000, Kerry in 2004. I have definitely become more conservative with age, especially as I get further removed from my idealistic university setting. What really changed me were a couple things: 1) working in the private consulting sector for the last 6 years; 2) recently starting my own business. I've seen first-hand how incompetent the gov't is at administrating our money. That's why they would contract my company to do things: they couldn't do it! The real hope lies in the private sector and in non-profits. Sooo much more efficient. People hire my company because we get stuff done. Then with my home business, I've found out that if I work really really hard, do a good job, treat my clients like kings, then I can actually make money by working in my basement. It's pretty cool, if you have an idea or a skill, you can make a living off it. That is the American Dream. But when I started actually making some money, I really saw how much of it was leaving. And for what? The government will NOT make our lives better; the government will not solve our problems. It's up to us to solve our problems. And yes, it's up to us to give and be charitable as well, and I would much rather trust a good NGO to use my hard-earned money than Bush, Bush II (McCain), or Obama.

Anyway, I totally understand where you are coming from. It is important, our duty, to help the poor and the downtrodden. That is a big issue to me. But I think you and I (the people) can do a better job of that than our federal government.

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:39:45

And by the way, our country is screwed up because of excessive debt, not because of capitalism. Too many people forgot about the "capital" part of the deal.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:41:33

Mm It's just so frustrating you know? It's like the government doesn't even care about the average person is what I take away from it. And I know that I'm not going to make loads of money. You dont really go into the education field for the money. (or so I'm told ;p). I just want to try to make a difference if I can. I just wish that politicians would work the same way. I don't like even voting for anyone for our state assembly because they went 20+ years without even approving a state budget on time. And now with the current deficit for THIS fiscal year here in NY they go on a 4 week Thanksgiving break?! I swear that politicians work the least of any profession. Even if you work at the 7/11, you don't get a break. In all likelihood they are going to work on holidays w/out even getting overtime or bonus. You know? Grr why is it so frustrating? It seems this country is so dysfunctional.

From kungfublonde on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:44:06

It's punishment to share the blessing of your success with others? Do you work hard only for yourself, or for your family as well as your community, as well as for your country?

Too many people choose not to give. And too many in need, genuine need, are not chosen to be given to.

If you choose to live in America, I think that means you should choose to help make it a better place.

Capitalism is a great idea. But in actuallity it leads to corruption and a grossly disproportionate distribution of the wealth. No one is proposing anything extreme as a solution. There will always be rich, middle class, and poor. But the weight of the disparity between the classes does not have to fall so heavily on the poorest of the poor. And the wealthiest should not be so begrudging with their advantage.

From montelepsy on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:48:00

You go, hon!

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 13:54:10

yes but what does capitalism breed? greed.

I'm only 22 and I see that. I see my friends from h.s. go to get their jobs and they choose the ones that will make them the most money, not make a difference. Yet I grapple with the issue of how can I take a social justice approach to educating our nation's youth when everything else about a capitalist country preaches ME ME ME.

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:27:22

I appreciate your comments on Sasha's blog concerning the current political nightmare and perspectives we are facing. I tend towards the conservative bent but try to be open minded to the issues I see the candidates address on a policy basis. With that said, Socialism is fine concept if the community/civilization is ready to implement it across the board and fair and even basis. As you point out that capitalism can be taken advantage of by the wealthy and the expense of the poor, implmenting a socialistic approach in our current mindset will result in the poor taking advantage of the wealthy by seeing that individuals can continue to or enhance their ability to bring income in by adding no value to society nor even trying to improve their status. As was mentioned, in Scandnavian countries, socialism is in place and many are happy. But it is not a viable area to attempt to be a small business owner due to the tax structure and HR issues faced to try and get hard workers. Socialism can lead to a grossy disproportionate distribution of the work and value added to society. Too many being left behind could also be caused by too many people looking for others to make my situation better, not by working hard to contribute and achieve success through their own means.

This being said, it is a sad state where the disparity and the perceived "entitlement" that the extreme wealthy are so pronounced and where the rich tend to flaunt their wealth on frivolous things rather than helping out those on whom they depended to help achieve their status. On the flip side, there are many rich influential people who do give generously of their blessings (Wayne Huizenga, Bill Gates, etc.).

Unfortunately this is a complex issue to which there is no one right answer nor one right person can fix alone.

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:36:12

Jeff is much more eloquent than I am. Well said. Part of my views lies with my disillusionment of the competence of the government. While I feel is it our duty to help our fellow man, the feds just don't have a very good track record with acting responsibly. And point taken on some huge companies. Many of them have a poor track record as well. (but not all)

Bill Gates is one of my heroes. He started from scratch, made a product used my millions, became successful, and is now devoting the rest of his life to doing good with his money. B&M Gates Foundation is an organization that gives me some hope.

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:40:28

I didn't say all government is bad, but the politics that drive government are the worst culprit of making government ineffective (disclaimer: this being said since I am a Fed and do try to hard to a steward of the taxpayers money working items of criticial importance for the country. Most if not all government employees I know truly want to do the right thing, at least as much if not more so than the workers for any major corporation do since we obviously aren't in for the money either!)

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:49:24

oops, sorry Jeff, in light of how you put it, what I wrote looks pretty stupid and harsh. Sometimes in the spirit of a good debate, I type things on the fly and don't think it through. ;-) And that apology goes to anyone else who I've offended.

Once again, I agree with Jeff's sentiments on the government vs. politics. I'll shut up now for good.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:52:46

I voted for Chuck! I don't like either major party these days and think the government has well overstepped its authority. I would love to see more 3rd party candidates actually win to shock the lifelong politicians into realizing that we are tired of the status quo.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:56:00

Paul- I don't think what you said and what Jeff says contradict each other. Most gov't employees want to do right. But all it takes is some corrupt or unwise (or both) people up top to completely cancel out any good from the average workers. It's just like a war- all the soldiers on the front line may do a good job, but if their general orders them into a cannon fodder situation, it won't matter.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:56:29

Well see I feel like Obama would be better than nothing because no offense but Chuck has no chance of winning. Even less of a chance than Nader. And it's not going to send a message so I just don't see why it's worth me taking the time to drive to the polling place to vote if it's not going to make a statement. :-

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 14:59:04

Benn, good for you for doing at least that, I know many folks that aren't even going to vote since they don't think it would make a difference. Apathy and giving up is not the answer either. Everyone...VOTE!

From jtshad on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 15:00:59

Oh, and Paul, no offense taken. I believe I knew what you were saying and agree with Jon that those at the top are swayed by politics too much that do indeed negate the good that government can do for the people. One word for what is bad in my mind: ENTITLEMENTS!

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 15:03:58

Well I might not agree with Obama on all issues but the way I figure is this: Either Obama or McCain is going to win and I'm sure as **** not going to let McCain get power. It'll be Bush #3 and I am not going to put up with that. THat's why I've supported Obama. Democrats will give us more money for education and hopefully END THIS GODAWFUL WAR :D

From paul on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 15:06:28

Jeff - good, thanks.

Rock the vote!!

From Matt on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 16:55:10

IMHO I think socialism robs people of their motivation to work hard. There is no reason to work hard because everything gets distributed so sparsely that you have no reason to exercise good faith in labor let alone education. I also feel that socialism discourages having a family and although that may be arguable I feel very confident that it discourages large families as does the government in the US tend to more and more.

As an example the more laws we create the more time we spend worrying about staying in compliance of the law or else suffer the consequences. You spend time doing your taxes, keeping your yard to a certain level of neighborhood cleanliness and upkeep, register your vehicles, obtaining a drivers license, getting your children their government mandated shots, educating them according to government standards or else taking them through the school system and meeting a lot of social expectations.

Then many people including myself spend the majority of their work year either earning money to pay taxes or for instance or again providing for the common good. I believe capitalism does breed greed but to encourage idleness but robbing humanity of ability to do better does far worse.

I to believe the election is a farce. In 2000 I voted Libertarian, in 2004 I voted for Bush. In the primaries I voted for Obama and come Election Day I don’t know whom I will vote for. I have McCain who claims he will cut spending (I don’t think any politician actually knows how to do this and I believe this will be our ultimate down fall) and will most likely appoint the Justices that I would like to see on the high court. Or I can vote Obama who will tell me whatever I want to hear so long as he gets elected and will also raise taxes on the top 250K earners nope 200K earners, nope 150K earners, well you get my point he is going to raise taxes on the majority of us because government can spend your money better than you can. This in turn equals less disposable income and equals another tax on the family. After all how much can a one or two family income support.

So now I am left with a a bunch of third party candidates Nader, Baldwin, Barr, personally I would rather have any of them over the top two bring back Ross Perot. Just give me someone who believes in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Not tax spend protect constituents i.e. the people to unmotivated to work hard to make progress or the big campaign contributors that want handouts.

All great civilizations are eventually brought down by to many special interests groups be they on the right or the left give it time Washington Insiders will bring us down.

The day my oldest daughter was born I told her life wasn’t fair. I will still stand by that statement although it is an argument for another time. My saddest commentary is I believe most politicians get into politics because the want to make things better but they become corrupted and don’t even know it because of the environment in which they live.

From Jon on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 20:53:10

Three words: Ron Paul Revolution.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 21:30:22

I think anyone that gets into politics is indeed noble (at least initially). But yeah look at the NYS legislature here. They get their transportation, house, food, etc etc paid for regardless of if they get anything actually DONE. And they make way too much money. What about the teachers that have to perform every single day and are now unindated with the NCLB Act? They get paid crap. Makes me depressed. How can I even afford a family even though my heart lies with teaching?

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 21:44:50

I guess what I gather from everyone is that it doesn't matter if you don't agree with the mainstream candidates. You should vote for the person that best sums up your feelings of how the country should be run, regardless of whether they are a major or minor contender?

From Jon on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 00:02:32

That's what I figure- vote for who you like best, major or minor.

From air dark horse on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 03:05:54

Hmm, I have to agree with Sasha on every point this time.

Jon-So many people that I know have expressed their favor towards Ron Paul. but the Washington political and big media machine washed him right out of existence. He may not be the most charismatic man, but he had some very good SPECIFIC IDEAS. Can't say that about Obama or even Mc Cain. All they can do is attack and go stumping for votes. What a freakin joke this election is....

From air dark horse on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 03:11:07

Sorry, that was a bit strong and opinionated.. but it's how I feel.

From Jon on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 07:49:42

I think Ron Paul is great- he clearly states what he believes and ALWAYS votes accordingly, even when he is the ONLY one voting against a bill. Plus, we often try to make politics so complicated, but he can explain very clearly why we are in our current state today and how we can fix everything.

From James W on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 09:58:25

I agree with your last comment, Benn. Go out and vote for who you think is best, regardless of whether they are mainstream or not. A word regaring socialism - there are MANY examples in the history of the world to show us how socialism does not work (and never will!). I served a mission for two years in former east germany, post-wall, post-reunification (1992-1994), and we could still see the results of communism/socialism. The people were downtrodden. There was no motivation to work hard (it was just starting to come back). The economy was stagnant. Why do you think the Soviet Union collapsed? Because communism/socialism does not work in the long run. No, you can't force people to live in equality. By the same token, I don't like how government is deciding when and where the principles of capitalism should be applied. Small business, yup, they can go under if they don't know how to be profitable. Big business, nope, we gotta save them, they are too big to fail. Hah! There is only one way I know of where it all works: the law of consecration. Everyone voluntarily consecrates all their goods, money, etc., and receives back only what they need. But it requires voluntarily living this way. That is the key. No one can be forced to live this way. No one can be forced to give up their money and property. And it requires a lot more than that - it requires a righteous people united in their love for their fellow man (or woman). Sorry for the diatribe. Oh how I wish Romney had won the Republican nomination . . .

From Daniel on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:15:02

Wasn't it George Washington who said that political parties would be the downfall of our country? I think you have to vote for the person you think will do the best and who supports the same things you do.

As for capitalism vs socialism, I don't think either one is evil or unable to work. They both have their pros and cons. It is the inability of us as human beings to make them work.

I do think that if you work hard enough you can live how you want. However, we have such a warped idea of what is successful. You don't have to have a huge house, an SUV, a big screen TV, etc. to be successful or happy. The current credit and housing problems stem from the inability of people to live within their means.

From Cal on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:50:28

I'm very disappointed with our choices in this election. I believe both major party candidates are saying anything and everything they can in order to be elected. (The political process is too divisive and mean spirited. Is there really only 2 sides to every issue? Republican vs. Democrat?)

I believe that every citizen's vote should count equally, regardless of where they live. (i.e. the Electoral College should be done away with.) It would be so much better if we had say, 10 candidates, all with equal funding, all with equal press coverage, and each one with a fair chance to debate and discuss their views. Then let the people decide who represents them best.

Also, do away with polling. Let everyone vote on election day, count them up, and announce the winner. Why do we have to predict the results ahead of time?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 13:31:10

I am for the so-called Ron Paul Revolution. We need to have the ability to vote for a candidate that truly represents our values without the concern that he has no chance of winning. How do we get there?

Easy in America. All you have to do is mark a check box on the ballot. In the Soviet Union people had to face tanks to make their votes count. In 1991 the Communists tried a violent takeover. I remember those couple of days. I sat at home in panic fearing for my life. There were people who did better than that, though. They went into the streets and faced the tanks. Eventually the army began to grasp the horror of having to shoot their own people, this awoke the deep inner sense of right and wrong among the soldiers and their commanders, the army switched sides and the coup was over.

This goes to show the power of one. One person decides to do what's right, and if he persists, others around him do the same.

We have much better opportunities for influencing others without the help of big money than in the past. All of us here would be nearly complete political nobodies a few years ago. Not anybody. You post what you believe in your blog, and several hundred people will read it. It spreads.

A vote according to your true inner beliefs is never a wasted vote. We all need to do it and use the means we've been given to tell others about it.

From wheakory on Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 16:26:53

Everyone needs to vote. My opinion is if you don't vote than you shouldn't be critical who gets in, because obviously by not voting you didn't care.

Somewhere we need a balance between industry and education to get an equal opportunity for everyone. Which candidate that is... I don't know.

From Doug Turner on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 21:11:11

Awesome, I voted for Chuck Baldwin as well, so he got at least two votes! I wasn't about to vote for "McBama" and really wanted Ron Paul, so Baldwin got my vote and it was not wasted!

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 21:46:37

Bet you wish you voted Obama now. He just owned McCain and McBaldwin!

From paul on Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 10:59:43

Benn - I don't follow your logic. Obama won't punish us for not voting for him. :P

From jtshad on Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 11:16:07

I agree with Paul, just as we indicted earlier that you should vote your conscience, so should everyone. Just because he won the election doesn't mean everyone should have and those that did should feel bad.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 17:13:02

That's one of the reasons that I don't like the polls. I know people who change their votes based on who they think will win - they want to be part of the winner's camp, even if they have no idea what the winner wants to do.

From adam on Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:01:51

I agree with that. The election isn't like a football game- our team is better than your team ha ha ha- and it isn't like you get special points for voting for the winner. It's one country. Why try to shove it in your neighbor's face because he voted for someone he agreed with or you disagreed with? That's where all the divisiveness comes in that both big parties were trying "so hard" to mend. Everybody screaming for "change" but still shove it in the "losers'" faces, and the "losers" act as if rebellion against the inevitable is the best option.

I don't really care for Obama, but he's the president-elect and as such I'll respect it. I don't need to drive around with a bumper sticker that says "not my president" on it. He will be the president of our country, period. When the next election comes around I'll vote for somebody else I agree with, and respect the people who want to re-elect Obama's choice just as much. It's sad to blame or accuse the parties or their leaders for all the problems and divisions in America, when so much of it comes down the decisions, choices, and attitudes of the American public.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.930.000.001.2514.18

A.M. Ran alone. Did a warmup of 3.62 miles, 5x400 with 200 recovery, then a long cool down to make the total of 10.5.

The quarters went better than last week. I did them on the standard stretch this time alternating directions. 75.1 - 72.1 - 72.3 - 70.0 - 69.8.

All of them felt rather odd. On one hand I felt like I was slacking off, on the other hand I felt like I could not go any faster. However towards the end I was able to force my way through the sour feeling in the quads and get myself to breathe harder.

During the cool down ran with John Borget, the brother of Rich Borget, and his friend Dixon Holmes.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:25, 2 with Benjamin in 17:26, Jenny ran the first 1.5 with us in 12:54. 0.34 with Joseph in 4:09. Took Jacob on the same loop as well, he did it in 5:51.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.50
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From wheakory on Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 13:06:00

Your slacking on your blog updates buddy! Just kidding. I thought of you when I was running my Half Marathon Race Saturday, about how your baby was doing and your wife. I hope things are going great for you.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
5.5510.000.000.0015.55

A.M. Took Benjamin to the Utah State Cross Country championship. He started out conservatively, moved into 3rd by around 2 K mark, and look like he was going to hold on to it, but then took a wrong turn on the course, lost about 32 seconds just on the extra distance + whatever from the mental aspect, and ended up in 6th place with 13:51.

P.M. Tempo run with Jeff. Ran a warm-up of 2.67. Then the standard 10 mile tempo. Splits:

Total time: 58:53

5:43 - 5:56 - 5:53 - 5:52 - 6:05 - 5:53 - 5:53 - 5:56- 5:52 - 5:48

Splits by 2.5: 14:35 - 14:55 - 14:45 - 14:38

HR: average 152, observed median 153, max 164 at the very end when I tried to push.

Subjective: Felt acceptable in the first mile, worse later, and terrible from mile 3 to the end. At 5 I seriously considered just stopping. But then I weighed the alternatives - next 5 miles in about 30 minutes in a trance, or next 5 miles in 40 minutes with full ability to reason. 30 minutes in a trance appeared to be a better alternative. Plus Jeff needed full 10 at tempo pace to build his gas tank, and I did not want to make him either cut it or do it all alone.

After 3 miles any time we ran faster than 5:52 even for a quarter, it would put me in a very miserable state. However, I was able to zone out drafting off Jeff, and as long as he was not breaking 88 on a quarter I could keep plodding along. He yelled at me in the last mile, and that helped with a faster split. Last quarter was 84, and it was one miserable quarter. I gave it all I had.

Jogged down with Jeff and another guy named Scott who we found on the trail, split ways with 0.46 to go, finished off 14.05 at the house. Lay on the cough for about 10 minutes, then felt good enough to run with Jenny and Julia. 14:33 for 1.5 miles with Julia running the first mile in 10:15.

The time was 6 seconds faster than two weeks ago. The effort was very hard. I'll blame it on the worn out nervous system.


Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 16.05
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Phoenix on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:53:52

If you were that worn out, what did you have to gain by pushing that hard?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of  rest. Slept nearly 11 hours. This shows the severity of the neural fatigue yesterday.

Went to church. Had a meeting afterwards. Went to a baptism in the Spanish branch in the evening. 

Night Sleep Time: 10.75Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 10.75
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.470.000.630.0013.10

A.M. 10.1 alone in 1:09:58. Yes, I like to beat the 1:10 guy when it is close. The sleep and a day of rest yesterday seemed to help. Felt energized from the start. Decided to measure the depth of it. Ran 1 K in 3:22 over a fairly thick layer of leaves in the middle.

Ran 200 with Jacob in 1:44. 

For some odd reason I got interested in the demographics of Denmark. I think if I had the patience to deal with the academic bureaucracy and our cost of living relative to income had not been so high I might have even become a sociologist. But I am somewhat satisfied with programming for a living and studying sociology as an amateur. In any case, I found this link:

http://www.denmark.dk/en/menu/About-Denmark/The-Danes/Population/ThePost1967Period/

And the following statements:

The last 30 years of the 20th century showed a far-reaching change in the demographical characteristics of the Danish population. The decline in fertility accelerated from 1967, and the lowest level so far was reached in 1983 when the average number of children born per woman was 1.4.

As c. 2.1 births per woman are necessary to avoid a fall in the size of the population, fertility rates are thus below the level needed for reproduction. Corresponding declines have been noted in most western European countries, in North America, Australia and Japan.

...

It has become more difficult for both practical and financial reasons to have many children...

As a father of 6, I can sure tell you about financial difficulty. I make quite a bit more than the average, and we still have to pinch every penny to live without debt.

The big question I have is why in the world has it become so difficult for a family to have the needed 2.1 children to maintain the population size when we have experienced such huge advances in technology and can do just about everything a lot more efficiently that we used to. With everything we have now the average family should be able to afford 10.5 children, not 2.1. Something somewhere has gone fundamentally wrong, something somewhere is being dumped into a huge black hole.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:52, 2 with Benjamin in 17:00, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:14. Jacob wanted to do a double today so we did another 200 in 1:58.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 12:18:25

I suppose the huge black hole may be referred to as government waste. For instance: The IRS spends 1/3 of the money collected in income taxes to do the collecting... Would the company you work for even be in business if 1/3 of the revenue went to collecting the revenue? Just one example.

Another might be the Administration of welfare. It could obviously be more effective if it were administered the way the LDS church does it allowing the budget to cover more peoples necessities and less encouragement to work less...

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 15:46:18

Interesting observation. I think the reason that it is "so expensive" to raise children these days is because of the extraordinary jump in comfort related luxuries that are now considered necessities. If you look back 100 years ago, people raised children in situations that would now be considerred dire poverty, but was quite normal for the day. I.e. no washer/dryer/dishwasher/TV/cable/computer/airconditioning etc etc. We are getting more and more dependent on high tech labor-saving items, but it is not without cost. We end up having to work all the time to pay for all of it, as if it were completely necessary for our survival. (Not that I have room to talk--I am the one with a mopping ROBOT, for goodness sakes.) But anyway, a good book that addresses this issue (and very thought provoking) is "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn.

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 16:08:04

Even our homes are much larger and much more complex to build and maintain. I remember reading life stories of my ancestors, and they'd just go out and build a house with some neighbors. It wasn't one of these "buy a palace and pay for it for the next 30 years" deal that it is today. Also, they used to grow, gather, or slaughter much of their own food, instead of paying for stuff that has been grown, inspected, packaged, and shipped from Chile so we can still get it at any time of year. I could go on and on...temperature control...mobility beyond the wildest imagination of our ancestors (cars, flights, cruises?), digital EVERYTHING. Also land is more expensive. It is VERY expensive to raise a family in Japan (which is a very affluent and educated country). Mortgages are commonly set to last 4 generations there. I wonder if it is in these more affluent countries, like Denmark, The US, and Japan, that raising children is seen as so expensive, while in poorer countries where the standard of living is lower, having more children is seen as an economic blessing because they can help with the work of growing food and caring for animals, etc.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 16:43:32

Well fortunately in the industrialized world big families are few and far between. The world can't sustain such rapid population growth. There is no way, especially in a world of consumer hungry individuals that people can take take take with regards to resources without consequences. Look at India and China. They are just now at the point of industrialization that we were at about 50 years ago. Wait until they become "tech savvy". It will be all heck broken loose.

I think the good thing is that there are a lot more young people opting not to have kids or only have 1 or 2 kids here in the U.S. which affords others the ability to plan to have as many kids as they choose. I know that personally I wouldn't want any more than two kids, especially when cost of living is so expensive. Unless youre a minister and can get a house paid for you, it is impossible to buy a house and have a big family. That is, until the government decides to pay people based on how hard they work. Often hard workign people have lower paying jobs than the big corp execs. It's not how hard you work. In this capitalist democracy it's all about who you know. That's something I've realized in the last couple years.

Case in point: in industrialized countries you cannot afford to provide adequately for your children unless you have something working in your favor to make the big bucks. (i.e. I will have a Master's degree - 6 yrs of college full time and 45k in debt; and yet I will make maybe $40,000 a year to do the most important job in the world - educate tomorrow's generation and effectively raise kids)

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 16:46:05

While I agree with Lybi, that we have way more than ever, the reason I mention the government as the "huge black hole" is because, as Sasha points out, with all the advances in technology and efficiencies, we should be able to do more, cheaper. We do more, but it isn't cheaper to live. We could get rid of all the luxuries, then we could raise more kids, but we wouldn't have the technologies and efficiencies to enjoy the things we enjoy. If 1/3 of my income weren't spent on taxes (income, sales, property, gas, Fica) I could do more. Of course, take this with a grain of salt, I'd rather pay everything that I pay in taxes than live in a different country where I wouldn't have all the blessings that I have here.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:14:05

Benn:

Maybe if you are a lawyer it is about who you know. I will not say much about that sector of the economy or others with which I am not familiar. But I can tell you that if you are a computer programmer it is about how well you do what you do. Probably the same for a lot of other professions where you produce something tangible that has to work but you cannot make work merely by means of persuasion.

Regarding children. You need 2.1 average births per woman for to avoid population decline. That means those who can have children should aim for at least three, because some people will never marry, others cannot have children at all, others physically can have only one or two, and not every time you try to have a child you succeed even if the woman gets pregnant - she can miscarry or have a still born. If that does not happen, people currently in their 20s will not have much fun in their 60s, and especially 70s.

Thus, a country that has set itself up to make it difficult for the average couple to have three children is headed for some serious problems in the next 50 years, and if the situation is not corrected, eventual extinction.

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:27:20

Well, Howling Commando, you've triggered my BS-o-meter. You seem to be laboring under the delusion (which is commonly held) that if someone in the United States chooses to have only one child, and provide them with more Disneyland vacations and a roomier house, (instead of having several children and putting them in bunkbeds etc.) that somehow that will benefit somebody struggling to eat in Angola. Resources has nothing to do with the number of people. One extremely spoiled person takes up MUCH more resources than several people living modestly. Say someone does have a lot of extra money lying around (and they also have a small family). Is this going to prompt them to mail their extra money to a foreign country? No. They will use it to buy a boathouse, or a boat, or a $80,000 car etc. etc. Children in large families learn to share and also to conserve resources. You must remember that just having more kids does not guarantee that your income will go up. So large families learn to economize--and it is something that we need more people to learn, if we are to have enough resources for everyone. You know what causes most of the starvation on the planet? War. Refugees. Wars caused by greed and people who never learned to consider the needs of others.

Also, I will tell you why teachers are so unfortunately underpaid. It is obviously not because the job they do it unimportant. It is simple economics. There are many people who would rather teach, because it is fulfilling and so important to the future than to do a job that pays well but is yucky, such as plumbing. So the supply of teachers is a little higher than the demand. That keeps the "price" of teachers low. Unfortunate, but true, and you can't blame it on who you know.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:29:50

We will never have extinction. But I believe we need to have a reduction in population at least in industrialized countries. We already have 7 billion people on the world, and if you look at how fast the population in the world has grown:

1900 - 1.6 billion

1950 - 2.5 billion

1975 - 4 billion

2000 - 6.5 billion

The facts don't lie. There are too many people in the world today. And we as humans have not done a very good job taking care of the kids that ARE being born. Why don't we take care of the individuals already on the planet before worrying about increasing the population at a faster rate.

As for being paid for how hard you work.. it IS who you know. Computers are a different story. I have a cousin who works not that hard and gets 85,000 a year doing a job that's not all that hard. Now what gives the government the right to require a Master's degree of me to be a teacher, and then expect me to stick around doing a job that is thankless (both by the students and their parents) for 40,000 a year? Sure I will get a pension and my cousin won't, but it is hardly enough to survive on. Thankfully I will have a wife who will work and we will together MAYBE make as much money as you alone, but the world today is very skewed towards rewarding capitalist and technology sectors, not the sectors that run the country. I.e. Without the food service industry, without the everyday grocery store workers, and without teachers and educators, the men and women making the 100,000 salaries wouldn't have the education or the people skills necessary to secure those jobs. If you ask me, it is time for change! We have to fix what we have. And if we can do that while holding the world population steady or at least halt the growth, we will be the better for it.

Too many kids are starving in teh streets, or homeless, or come from broken homes. We don't need more children, we need to help those we already have.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:34:17

Lybi, unlike your misconception I don't operate under the "AFFLUENZA" epidemic that so many OTHER AMERICANS do. I drive the same car that I've had sine 2001. I don't shop at the mall but more than once a year. I wear handme downs. I don't buy "the newest gadgets" and why? Because I know I don't need them. I'm talking about a problem that exists worldwide. There are too many people that live outside their means and yet still fail to provide for their children. Sure I am all for big families so long as your values aren't skewed. My mom was one of 10 kids and I am one of 4, so is EMma. We are used to big families.

However, I still feel success in a capitalist driven country like the states isn't how hard you work. There are people that work plenty hard but have 0 connections. Thus they will have a tough time advancing. I have friends that went to interviews where they were GIVEN the questions ahead of time! And they knew the people and hmm.. bingo bango they got the job and otehrs didn't. Now if I had been one of those other people I'd be pretty PO'ed if I found out the circumstances of that compromised interview. It is definitely skewed though that it is all about connections. Unfortunately that's how it works in the US. You can only succeed based on how much support y ou have and how many people you know.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:36:34

Oh and Lybi I'm not talking about people on this blog because most of the people here have their heads on straight. I am referring to the living outside your means that has come to govern the lives of many Americans and thus contributed to the stupid credit crisis we are in now. It sickens me that people think they should buy stuff just because they "can" or because their neighbor has it. If you haven't read it, pick up the book "AFFLUENZA" by DeGraff.. it's an eye opener.

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:38:56

I think that the reason there are so many more people alive today than a hundred years ago is not because people are having more and more babies, it is because more and more of them are surviving to adulthood, Benn. In animals populations, whenever populations grow too fast or too rapidly, there is commonly a plague that comes and reduces the population greatly (food shortage leads to starvation too, I am sure). So actually what you are arguing for is that we should let more of our babies die.

People's "needs" expand to meet their resources. I.e. a family of 3 that earns $100,000 a year will take as much resources (all of it) as a family of 10 that earns $100,000.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:44:26

I definitely see you there. But what I think people have failed to realize is that the world has been governed by a survival of the fittest method since the beginning of time until very recently (i.e. the last 100 years). Thus, when there were no cures for polio or small pox, etc people died. That was the reality. So, as life expectancy increases, birthrate should decrease in the industrialized countries. Else there won't be a world worth living in! Unless you own 100 acres out in the middle of no where and are self sufficient. The world is headed down a very ugly path. Maybe the mayans had it right with their 2012 prophecy haha

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:46:08

Personally, I think that we are in for a really bad epidemic of some kind relatively soon. Get your flu shot!

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 17:50:35

Flu shots make you weaker. I have been sick twice in my life and one was chicken pox as a 4 year old. Getting a flu shot just makes you weaker. Unless you are under the age of 5, or very old or a new mom you dont need the flu shot. Too many people overuse it just like Penicillin, that's why there are more strains of it each year and hence, more resistance. One day there will be a superbug that will wipe off the population kind of like the plague. It will be interesting.

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 18:15:24

Howling Commando - You apparently realize that we live in a capitalistic society that rewards people for who they know, not what they know. Regardless of whether or not I agree with your statements, it is also apparent that you would rather complain about this fact still choosing a thankless profession (forced by the government to get a master's degree) than choose a different profession. Your choice also has to do with the system. You could live somewhere else where they value grocery store workers and teachers more, but I don't know if that country/system exists. Anyone can work in the grocery store (I did when I was 18) and anyone can be hired as a teacher (my neighbor is now teaching math full-time and has no teaching credential, as well as my mom substitute taught for years with 1 semester of post-high school education, and my friends dad after he was laid off - no credentials) even though teachers will tell you that they can't. However, the more people available to teach, the more requirements there are for teachers - depends on the area. If you want to be rewarded for the amount of work you do you could try the following professions:

Dentist

Doctor

Engineer (many types)

Real Estate Agent (not very rewarding right now)

Plumber

Contractor

Lawn Mower

Piece Rate Assembler

Mom and Pop Shop

Newspaper Delivery Person

etc...

If you want to have the government decide wages based on importance, and teachers are darn near #1, more people will become teachers and there will be a shortage of everything else.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 18:21:00

Benn:

I agree with you that our society has skewed values. We pay movie stars, football players, lawyers, doctors, certain business executives, and others way too much, and pay farmers, plumbers, truck drivers, and teachers way too little.

However, it is important to distinguish between "hard work" and "skillful work". One example. Sarah takes 2 minutes to peel the potatoes. It has taken me as long as 20 minutes. I worked 10 times as long, had to focus harder than her relative to my top capacity, and the end result was a job of worse quality. If both of us peeled potatoes for a living, I would have a hard time convincing my employer that I should get paid 10 times as much to do a worse job. One time I tried to fix a plumbing problem. After 8 hours of work it was still not fixed. We called a plumber. He fixed it in 10 minutes.

On the other hand, when it comes down to computers, I have a chance to make a living because I can program much better than the average Joe, and many things we do today are computer-dependent. I do not have to work very hard to produce significantly more value than I could if I had to do construction or farming, for example. I am thankful that I've been able to find an area that pays where I also have a talent.

Regarding world population. You have correctly observed that it is growing. It will continue to grow. And we can handle it if we humble ourselves before God. He has given us plenty of resources. We just need to have His wisdom so we'll know how to use them.

The reality is, however, that any nation that believes in having a reduced number of children will become outnumbered by nations that don't. In a democracy outnumbered means outvoted. In a militarized society outnumbered often means outgunned. In the book of Exodus we read about how the Egyptians got concerned about Hebrews multiplying too fast. As wicked and corrupt as they were, they still understood a natural law that appears to evade many in the Western culture today - it is bad to be outnumbered.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 18:26:51

"and anyone can be hired as a teacher (my neighbor is now teaching math full-time and has no teaching credential, as well as my mom substitute taught for years with 1 semester of post-high school education, and my friends dad after he was laid off - no credentials) even though teachers will tell you that they can't. "

That is why kids' education in the west is not up to par with the Ivy League credentials of the east. Well I know I will still make more money here in the Northeast. I should be able to get 40k out of school, whereas if I taught in your state I'd only be able to get about 26k. So Yeah I agree that anyone out there can teach if they don't need credentials, and maybe that's why they lag behind with the NCLB Act of 2002. Who knows. All I know is that I try way too hard and still find it impossible to even be able to afford gas money. All this while I have to pay 45k for a degree.

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 18:27:45

Sasha--does that apply to kid to adult ratio in the house? Then you and Sarah are toast! He he he. Just kidding. In a tug of war your family could probably take any family on the blog.

From The Howling Commando on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 18:30:08

Sasha - You hit the nail on the head. I see exactly what you are saying. But then I have a question about how can you transmit these values to people that continue to buy outside their means and spend spend spend? How can we send a message? Already so many people strive to set a good example, but what more can you do? And I think with this stupid bailout plan people think that "oh well if I ever do run into trouble I can just get someone to bail me out" ; Why is growing up so troubling? It's like everything when you are a kid is awesome - you're in your protective bubble, then you turn 18 and go to college and the trouble starts :(

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 18:58:45

Howling Commando - I don't mean any offense, but you say, "All I know is that I try way too hard and still find it impossible to even be able to afford gas money." and you mention the government bail-out and protective bubbles, yet you've indicated that you're voting for Obama because democrats fund education more than republicans - though noble, it also seems self serving, like you want the government to bail you out so you can stay in your protective bubble doing what you want to do and be able to afford gas.

As funding increases for education, all I've seen is administration get larger. In privatized schools, the results are good but the administration is small - seems more effective than increasing funding to public schools.

From Lybi on Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 20:38:49

Watch it, Jason, nobody's allowed to badger The Howling Greatness...except for me. But while we're on the subject, Benn, what is it that has drawn you to be a history teacher? Is it because you love history and you love teaching? That is noble. It will be like you are paying part of your potential income to have a job that you love. Lots and lots of people have hobbies or interests that are significant drains on their finances, but are a priority because it adds greatly to their enjoyment of life. Personally, I think it is of great value to work in something that I enjoy--i.e. piano teaching, which is not exactly lucrative, but that I love love love. But then, I am so grateful for people like my hubby that do those jobs that need to be done, but are exceedingly tedious (although amazingly enough, he does enjoy it). It's a blessing that we are all different, I guess.

Benn-Do you really think the flu shot makes you weaker? Is it because your immune system would be stronger after fighting off the disease? I'd rather be weak than get the flu. That's my problem.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 19:55:43

Benn:

Values are best taught in the family. Doing so consistently via formal instruction and personal example is the key. Here are some specific things that every LDS family has been asked to do by our leaders:

Family prayer at least twice a day.

Daily family scripture study. We read from the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Weekly church attendance. No skipping.

Weekly family get-together that involves gospel instruction as well as some recreational activities - we call it Family Home Evening, and reserve Monday night for it.

The above mentioned activities help us teach our children basic principles of faith consistently. Faith can be easily lost, especially in the world today, if not consistently taught and practiced. If we succeed in helping our children obtain a personal witness that God lives, Jesus Christ is his Son, Joseph Smith indeed was guided by the Lord to restore the true church after a long period of apostasy, and that our church has prophets today with the same authority as the biblical prophets and apostles such as Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Peter, or Paul, then the rest flows naturally.

Our prophets have taught us for more than a century to be frugal and to behave in a number of other ways contrary to the de facto standards of the modern society. An individual who knows through the Holy Ghost that the prophets are Lord's representatives on earth will have no problem obeying them in spite of the ridicule and other forms of adversity they might temporarily receive as a result of such obedience. If the basic principles of faith have been taught and the spiritual confirmation has arrived, our children are able to continue in faith and pass it on to their children.

The families that diligently implement the above principles without groping around for some slack and trying to take short cuts see very high success rates. While every spirit that comes to us from heaven has a gift of agency, which means the possibility of choosing to still go astray even if taught perfectly, based on my observations, a diligent effort to live the faith on average results in about 70-80% carry-through into the next generation.

From DanR on Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 22:51:12

u run more than anyone else on the blog why arent u the fastest

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.840.002.500.0013.34

A.M. Tempo run with Derek and Tyler. During the 4.12 warm-up talked about the economy, what affects the cost of living, and to what extent is the government regulation of the free market necessary. My thoughts. Comparing free market to a race. No individual competitor should be unfairly aided or hampered by the race officials. However, strict rules are needed to make sure nobody cheats. If you trip or punch somebody, cut the course, ride part of the race on a bike or in a car, use roller blades, poison a competitor before the start, or do something of that nature you are disqualified. If a famous runner is struggling and falls behind we do not give him a ride to catch up to the leaders or to be back on pace.

Then we ran the 2.5 in 13:42.1. The rough plan was 5:30 pace and we beat him by 3 seconds. I drafted behind Derek and Tyler most of the way. The splits were mostly unavailable due to the trail being heavily covered with leaves. We got our first split at 0.435 - 2:28. About 4 seconds off pace, no wonder it felt too manageable. I told Derek to speed up. He took us through the rest of the mile at 5:20 pace on the dot, so we had 5:28 at the mile. At this point my HR was 165, and I started to feel uncomfortable. So I asked Derek to back off a bit, and he did hitting the next two quarters in 81 each like a clock, 8:10 at 1.5. My HR was 163, and I felt balanced but very tenderly - a slight surge could do me in and the pace, even slower pace, would become unsustainable. This stretch had the fewest leaves, which I think is why 81 quarters felt more sustainable than at any other point in the tempo.

The last mile was uphill and covered with leaves. The next split was at "3000" - 10:16, so the uphill "600" at 5:36 pace. It felt hard but not miserable. Next "600" in 2:03, 5:28 pace, not noticeably uphill, but still uphill, I know because I had cross-country skied it several times timing it in both directions. On the last quarter it felt like we picked up the pace, HR got up to 168, but we only got 83 for the quarter. I wonder if it had to do with the increased amount of leaves while on a slightly higher upper grade. My HR never spikes that high unless I am running a sub-80 quarter. If I am too tired to run a sub-80 quarter, I just cannot push it that high.

Total time for the last mile was 5:32. Average HR 160, max 168.

I was pleased with the run. The time was the fastest for that stretch since St. George. But I was more pleased with the following: HR could get to 165 in 5 minutes of running, life seemed bearable at HR of 163, and I felt like I still had a little bit to give when it was as high as 168.

Cooled down with Derek and Tyler for 1.38 discussing no state income tax in Washington, then 2 more by myself to make the total of 10.

Sarah and I voted today. It felt good to vote for neither McCain nor Obama. I felt relieved that there was a candidate that represented my values much better even though he could not win.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 8:59. 2 with Benjamin in 17:10, Jenny did the first 1.5 in 13:08. Julia rode the bike during Jenny's run. This is a big breakthrough for Julia - she learned to ride less than a week ago. 200 with Jacob in 1:54, and 0.34 with Joseph in 4:09.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. We got our first snow. However, it started during the run, and I was wearing Five Fingers. Got to experience the snow. It was rather cold, but not as bad as I anticipated. Ran the first 6 miles with Jeff, the rest on my own. Discussed politics. 1:25:12 for 10 miles, got beat by a boltushka, I suppose we deserve that since we've been talking the whole time.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:05, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:09. Took the Fast Running Van to get the the tail blinker fixed, they found literally a hornet's nest under the light cover. Wasps made a nest there.

P.M-2. 1 with Julia in 10:03. 200 with Jacob in 2:08.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.090.000.001.2513.34

A.M. Ran with Derek. Learned from him that M-16/AK-47 effective range is 500 meters, but a stray bullet can kill you from as far away as 800 meters. This made me remember some dark Russian humor: The optimist is studying English, the pessimist is studying Chinese, but a realist is studying AK-47.

We did 5x400 with 200 jog rest. Splits: 71.8, 69.9, 69.3, 69.1, 71.1. Derek hit around 67 in the last 3.  I was happy with how it went. Even though it was cold, and we had some leaves on the ground, this is the fastest I've done this workout since St. George.

Dropped Derek off at 8 miles, ran 2 more to make it 10. Then ran/walked with Jacob - 200 meters in 2:01.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin and Jenny in 17:50. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:39. 1 with Julia in 10:29. 

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Nevels on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 12:14:06

So do you consider yourself and optimist, pessimist, or realist?

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 12:35:10

Based on that standard, an optimist. I learned English.

From Nevels on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 14:48:22

Good choice

From marion on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 15:48:56

Funny joke ;)

From Phoenix on Sat, Nov 08, 2008 at 11:30:19

Nice workout. I firmly believe that work like this is essential for maximizing performance from 800 meter to at least half-marathon for some the marathon. We all lose speed with age, but I think most of it is because we stop doing anything fast and the body becomes stale. Judicious use of real speed work keeps the nervous system strong and healthy.

For me, I'd study English, Chinese, and AK-47s. I keep my options open as long as I can.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.940.000.500.0013.44

A.M. 10.1 alone in 1:14:32. Did a 0.5 pickup in the middle in 2:42 (82,80). Felt decent.

P.M. 200 with Jacob in 1:56, 0.34 with Joseph in 3:44. 1 with Julia in 9:49. 2 with Benjamin in 17:19, Jenny ran 1.5 in 13:09 with us.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From walter on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 16:03:26

Hey Sasha, I met one of the employees of Bill Rodgers running center in Boston and I was telling him about the FRB and how you stem from Russia. He invited me and any bloggers on here to a party one day after the Boston Marathon and will have some European Marathon runners there including a fast runner from Russia. I forgot his name but I thought you would find this pretty amuzing! I definitely will try making it there.

From The Howling Commando on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 19:57:12

Hey Sasha - just curious.. how have those Five Fingers not fallen apart?! You must be a super biomechanically sound runner because I completely trash my shoes within 300-400 miles!

From Graceland Drew on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 21:49:44

Sasha,

Thanks for the kind words. I look forward to picking your brain. My next big goal race is the Country Music Marathon in April.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 23:11:48

Benn:

The Five Fingers are still runnable. The right one has two holes. One is about half an inch wide, the other about a quarter. The left one is still intact.

My form is actually not that efficient, at least visually. You can see for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQX8ol36fM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVLqUMxzK6M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCNzp8CoVEM

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.005.005.000.0020.00

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Tyler, Michelle, and Julie Esplin. Jeff and I did the standard 10 mile tempo. Tyler and Julie ran easy. Michelle did some mile repeats with us during the tempo.

The tempo went better than I expected. 56:38.9 for the whole thing, which is actually a 3 second course/workout PR. Splits:

5:47 - 5:42 - 5:40 - 5:46 - 5:44 - 5:37 - 5:40 - 5:31 - 5:37 - 5:34

By 2.5: 14:20 - 14:19 - 14:04 - 13:55

By half: 28:39 - 27:59

Subjective/Descriptive:

Started out slow on purpose to not kill Michelle. Too slow - 91 the first quarter. I warned Jeff about overcorrection, so the next one was 87. After that Jeff just let it loose, but Michelle made it with us to 1.25 in 7:13.

After the first 2.5 I thought I'd be lucky to keep the pace. But then 4 miles into it things did not get any worse. During the second half of the tempo Jeff pressed harder, but I was not too miserable at first. I just tucked in behind him and tried to zone out. He had an non-gentleman-like moment by serving Michelle an 83 quarter after 5.5 when she tried to join us for a mile, followed by another in 85. Michelle was still hanging on, after that she fell back.

From 7 to 8 it was my turn to suffer. Jeff served me a 5:31 mile with a 180 turn in the middle. I asked him to back off, and was hanging on to dear life. Michelle saw us go by and decided it was hopeless to try to hang on. Perhaps not without a reason as we still hit a 5:37 for the next mile.

At the end, all I wanted to do was catch the 5:40 guy, but Jeff had higher ambitions. So he dropped me on the last quarter and finished 8 seconds faster in 76 vs mine in 84. I did not have much more than 84 left in me at that point.

Felt like I could push through fatigue better. The breathing was harder. Did not wear an HRM. I think my quarters have helped. I've seen this effect before - quarters at mile race pace or faster helping all distances up to the marathon.

Felt much better after the tempo that a week ago. Ran a long cool down. Total of 17 miles.

200 with Jacob in 1:53 afterwards. 

P.M. 1 with Julia in 8:56. 2 with Benjamin and Jenny in 17:07.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 17.20
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 1.50Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Comments
From MichelleL on Sun, Nov 09, 2008 at 10:37:22

Great workout Sasha. Good job hanging onto Jeff's tailcoats. Thanks for letting me join and try to do the same.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church. Counted the kids during the Sacrament meeting to make sure everyone was still there. Then I thought of the hymn Count Your Blessings and realized I was literally counting my blessings. Every child is a blessing and I now have 6 of them. Then a short while later one blessing (Jacob) escaped and I had to chase him.

As luck or perhaps God's will would have it, I got to teach both in Sunday School and in the Elder's Quorum. The lesson in Sunday School was on the plan of salvation, and in the Elder's Quorum on knowledge. 

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From tarzan on Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 20:34:57

Maybe you could count the mileage chasing children around the chapel.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.100.000.000.0013.10

A.M. Easy 10.1 alone in 1:09:55. The temperatures were cold, but not freezing. Very runnable, although my feet started getting wet towards the end. Almost ran into an uncovered drainage opening in the last mile. Somebody had lifted the cover and had not put it back. So this gave me a chance for some small weight training exercise putting it back on. Surprisingly it did not take me very long - handy tasks, even very simple, often take me a lot longer than they should.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:03, 2 with Benjamin in 17:06, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:14. 

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Nevels on Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 19:39:01

Talk about adaptive cross-training...

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.000.005.000.0013.00

A.M. Ran with Tyler, Derek, and Dustin Williams, Derek's friend and athletic trainer at BYU. Tyler and I did the standard 5 mile tempo. Derek and Dustin ran the warm-up with us.

My original plan was to do only the second half of the tempo, but Tyler persuaded me to do the whole 5.

Total time: 27:46.4

Splits: 5:30 - 5:30 - 5:37 - 5:34 - 5:35.

By half: 13:48 - 13:58

Subjective/Descriptive: 5:30 pace for the whole 5 was rather ambitious given that last week I barely managed 5:29 for 2.5, no nap on Sunday or Monday, leaves, and a wet road. Nevertheless we decided to go out at 5:30 and see what happens. We hit every half mile on the dot for the first 2 miles. The first mile felt a bit aggressive. Second mile felt good, just perfect. Third mile at first felt too good and then it started feeling hard, about 0.25 before 180 turn, and even harder afterwards. I tucked behind Tyler, and the fourth mile felt a bit better, but still not enough to take a turn upfront and lead pursuit of the 5:30 guy who was gradually slipping away. The first quarter of the last mile felt too good, and for a good reason - we slowed down to 85 on it. It was uphill, so it was more like an 84 effort, but still the quarter before that was 82. I took the lead after that, and Tyler started falling back. But I was not doing that much better - hit quarters in 83, 84, and 83, and that was all I could do. Tyler finished 2 seconds behind me in 27:48.

Overall happy with the tempo.

 P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:20, 2 with Benjamin in 17:07, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:08.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Easy 10, first 7 with Jeff. Total time 1:21:11. Of all things discussed civil unions. My argument is that if we do allow civil unions with benefits, then two or more people living together should not have to engage in the "alternative behavior" described by Leviticus 18:22 in order to form the union and receive the benefits. E.g. two guys finish running for college and decide to try to run professionally. One year one trains full-time, the other works and trains when he can, then they trade. They share an apartment and kitchen duties to save costs. One should be able to put the other on his health insurance.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:26. 2 with Benjamin in 18:00. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:23. 200 with Jacob in 1:52.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 7.50
Comments
From Matt on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 15:11:19

I think that is well enough put. But I don't feel like many people are even arguing about those types of unions. There is really only concern about the types spoken of in Lev. 18:22. It appears most of the country is quickly moving to the idea that marriage is ordained of Country and God is an afterthought. I can't agree with that.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 15:15:59

I think that gay couples should still be afforded the same rights as married couples, but that is because they are making a commitment to staying together. To me, two college guys even if they live together seem to be doing that just for the benefits. I find it hard to justify medical benefits for a friend. Would this mean that I could put Emma's mom on my insurance if mine were better just because I was living in her house for a while while we saved up to by a new house?

As for gay marriage, I feel strongly against it, only because I was always taught marriage is a religious bonding of a man and woman. Though I have issues too about this as there are no many people not faithful to any religion that go way overboard trying to prepare a blowout wedding. Wedding is about the sacraments and the promises you are pledging, not about how much $$ you spend to be a bridezilla.

From The Howling Commando on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 15:24:24

I guess it just raises so many questions, especially as it seems our country is going down an increasingly diverse path. Things are more accepted now. Just look at how fast Eastern religions are growing you know?

I think that people should be afforded certain rights if they make efforts to procure them but circumstances will not allow it (i.e. your two runners in your example).

What can we do to voice our opinions? Write to newspapers, maybe write our congressmen and women? I just feel like I can't really do much about anything.

Should marriage be a religious thing though in this country now that we have so many peoples of so many faiths? It just seems prejudiced to keep people from marrying I guess. So maybe if those runners decide to tie the knot they can get those benefits?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 17:46:28

Benn:

The two runners are sure no less committed than two gays. Isn't it a more honorable expression of commitment to sacrifice a good portion of your income for your friend's success than to just get in bed with him? Yet the bed is being used as the standard in the California law (I checked). I wish we could find a lawyer that would want to pursue this matter. I think all it would take is two males in California to get denied a civil union on the basis that they are straight, and then sue.

From Matt on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 23:14:54

So if I follow the reasoning for benefits, it would seem plausible that one could enter multiple civil unions. I think the thing that chaps my hide the most is, that like so many arguments, this really is an argument about definition of terms. I word like marriage has existed since the beginning of time but now for a special interest group it seems like the term discriminates against them. We want to be part of the good word so let us change what the word means. Then as far as we our concerned when we explain our marriage down the road we need to mention that we are in heterosexual marriages. So in the end it is those that are in the traditional marriage that are blighted so that the homosexual relationship can say they to are in a marriage and were wed on a certain day.

Unfortunately the law has already given civil unions the same rights as married unions as far as tax advantages, insurance, estate rights. All of which I would personally disagree with. I feel now the government has to be involved in the origin and disolvment of these unions with no advantage for government or society. At least in a traditional marriage stability is added to society along with opportunity to provide more tax payers and growth through posterity.

Rather then treat the disease we foster it. As Alexander Pope’s classic “essay on man” reads Vice is a monster of so frightful mien As to be hated needs but to be seen;

Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace. Mankind or at least the United States of Americas government will eventually embrace this sinister plot but God will never accept this lustful relationship.

From Shanti on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:27:11

"Rather then treat the disease we foster it. As Alexander Pope’s classic “essay on man” reads Vice is a monster of so frightful mien As to be hated needs but to be seen;"

That is an interesting statement, making the assumption that gay is a disease, pretty classic argument that has been shown to have no merit or science behind it. Gay is not something that can caught or transmitted or even passed on. I know of no one who would be willing subject themselves to ridicule, harassment, abandonment by family, and violence just for choice. Ask yourself, would you be willing to give up your family, friends, and a career for a Choice on sexuality?

The bottom line is equality: to deny rights to one is to deny rights to all. It was not all that long ago that color and gender were used as the same guideline to deny rights. It was not too long ago, 1967, that is was illegal for races to intermarry. We are setting the standard to say that it is ok to deny the rights to someone because they are different.

To the other point; marriage is a religious bond between a a man and a woman. Are we saying that only heterosexual couples experience religion and do not have strong values rooted in their own faith, an ignorant statement. I have many gay friends who are as fiercely involved in their faiths as my heterosexual friends. Marriage is a contract between the State and a couple, any religious meaning attached to it is ultimately up to the couple engaging in it.

We should all be terrified that sexual preference is being used as a tool to deny the rights of people. Until we realize we are all the same, we are all humans, we will continue to create bitter divisions that serve no purpose other than to harm one another. For all of you who believe in Christ, do you really think He would be so quick to shun those who believed or acted differently, does that not go against his very core belief?

From Mire on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:03:36

Wow!! Maybe the answer is nationalized health care! Then everyone would have access to health care, regardless of marital status. So the 2 runners living together would not have to have a civil union or marriage to get the health care every person deserves. As the saying goes, the healthier your neighbor is, the healthier you and your children will be.

Another thing, I think we are too hung up on trying to define what marriage is, it's different for everybody, heterosexual, or homosexual! And because over 50% of marriages end in divorce, you cannot make the argument that heterosexual marriages keep society stable!! I think the divorce rate in Utah is even higher!

From Matt on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 13:25:40

Shanti & Mire,

Wow just because a loud minority says they are not diseased (mentally not some virus) doesn't mean it is not the case. Many mentally diseased people claim they have no problem but that can often be because of a chemical imbalance which medication can help or because of severe trauma. Pedophiles claim that there behavior is completely normal as well I am sure that given enough time we will have a larger movement to give pedophiles additional rights after all they can’t help it. Interestingly enough Homosexual men tend have about a 4 times more likely right to commit an act of child molestation. They seem like great citizens.

Most individuals who turn to homosexuality do so for two main reasons. Homosexual women tend to have had childhood trauma and (usually molestation but often times violent acts as well) these acts are typically perpetrated against them by male role models. They become untrusting of men and really who can blame them and eventually turn to other women for companionship and sexual fulfillment. Generally they are fulfilled more by companionship then libido.

On the other hand Gay men around the age of maturation usually begin experimenting sexual. They may be recruited or are just open to more sexual experimentation. The Libido is very high. Arousal for men is obviously very high and again they make a choice to have a relationship with a gay partner. Gay men are not remotely as faithful as gay women. Mostly because they are in the relationship not for companionship but for lustful desires. These stereotypes are huge generalizations but more often then not seem to be the case for both groups that categorically put them selves in these groups. My gay next door neighbor of the last eight years fits nicely into this category as does my youngest sister. I have only had close interpersonal relationship with about a dozen different self proclaimed homosexuals and upon getting to know them all they have all fit into similar categories.

The fact of the matter remains as far marriage is concerned, which existed long before any country and is God ordained not country, self proclaimed homosexuals have just as much right to marriage as you and me, or any republican democrat vegetarian or carnivore. It is just that marriage is between a man and a woman. As far as religion is concerned all people have right to religion. Let them worship how, who or what they may. But as far as orthodox Christianity is concerned the bible is quite clear on the fact that man will not lie with man as man lies with woman. These aren’t my words they are Gods prophets.

Lastly, I will decide what arguments I will make and yes I will state that marriages make society stable and homosexual relationship deteriorate society. If the entire world were homosexuals society would die out end of game. Heterosexual relationships propagate the species and the circle of life. Duh

As far as nationalized healthcare is concerned I think that could be a great thing especially for those 18 and under of course it needs to be done right.

From Mire on Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 11:17:46

There is absolutely no connection between pedophilia and homosexuality. www.psychology.usdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Pedophilia is defined "as a psychological disorder in which an adult experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children". It is not even close to what we are discussing..2 consenting adults of the same gender wanting to spend their lives together in a committed relationship. To make the claim that pedophiles will get additional rights is ridiculous!I have no idea where you are getting your false information, but homosexual men are NOT 4 times as likely to commit sexual acts against children. Your trite generalizations against your neighbor and your sister are laughable.

To say the entire world will be homosexual or wiped out due to homosexuality is a absurd--"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2–7%." At least we agree on nationalized health care. LOL!!!!

From montelepsy on Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 11:54:58

Marriage should be between two people that love each other, regardless of their gender. If Rachel were a man, I'd marry her. Or him. We could share the same wardrobe, too.

And Matt, not everyone turns gay. Some are born that way.

And if sex is the only thing that keeps gay men together, why are there old gay couples? They don't get tax breaks or other civil benefits. They stay together because they love one another.

From Mire on Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 08:10:18

Beautifully stated montelepsy!!!

Thank you!!!!

From Matt on Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:42:00

Love alone doesn't determine marriagability. I love my children. Regardless, the choice belongs to the individual. People choose to act the way they do. I choose oatmeal for breakfast as humans we make choices. It is what separates us from animals. We can choose to live the laws of man or God or both but in the final analysis we are the choices we make. If someone chooses homosexuality they reap there reward. If they choose adultery they reap a similar reward. Under the current laws if people want marriage it only exists between a man and a woman.

I am sure as time moves on in the USA eventually homosexual marriage will be legalized. Many things will continue to destroy our country from within. This happens to all great empires until the point of revolution. But that still doesn't excuse this degenerative behavior. Basking in once personal lustful behaviors does nothing to increase mankind as a whole or Gods will. As for evidences to alternative reasons older homosexual men stay together. I haven't meet a lot of older homosexual couples. Maybe that is because of the high suicide rate the low life expentacy due to disease the overall general depression they tend to feel and or guilt. I have found quite the opposite in that realationship for men tend to be short lived. But in longer realationships they obviously eventually reach the point where they want & need companionship and less libdo fullfillment. I find the ucdavis link very humorous.

The argument is again essentially one of semantics. The two terms are mutually exclusive as far pedophilia and homosexuality are concerned you can't be both because if you are gay one day a pedophile the next you are no longer gay. Biased movements tend to come up with lots of studies to explain away simple reason or gloss over unfourtunate blights. The next thing I know you're going to be telling me we are causing global warming.

Again if you want to argue the difference between diseased and possesing a psychological disorder I will give in as the term is semantics.

the fact of the matter is I love a lot of homosexual people but that doesn't change the fact that there behavior is wrongful and destructive and morally apprehensible. I Will also take your argument on only 2 to 7 percent of our country choosing homosexuality as your admitance to the fact that homosexual behavior takes away from the progress of man since it is destructive to our progression. I am glad to see we can still agree on national healthcare though but to me it is no laughing matter.

please forgive my typos I am responding from my palm while I am away on business.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 19:04:14

I completely agree with Matt on all points except one. I have a hope that we'll be able to hold on to the traditional definition of marriage in the United States. However, if we can't, Genesis 18 and 19 give us very stern warnings regarding what we might expect. Abraham had a discussion with the Lord asking him what it would take to spare Sodom and Gomorrah. The Lord agreed to spare it if ten righteous people could be found. Then the Lord sent angels to Sodom to take Lot and his family out of it. The Sodomites, apparently tired of each other, demanded of Lot to let them in so they could "know" the angels (Genesis 19:4-5). Lot must have been quite intimidated by his neighbors. Instead of just plain telling them to get lost, he offered them to "know" one of his daughters instead (Genesis 19:8). Yet in spite of this hesitation the Lord was still merciful towards Lot and his family, and had the angels pull them out of the city before it was destroyed.

The prophets of the Old Testament frequently referenced Sodom later on as the ultimate example of sin. In the New Testament the Saviour himself (in Matthew 10:15) references Sodom with no stamp of approval: "It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city". Later on, Peter, one of His apostles explains one of the purposes of the destruction: "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6).

At this point I have to say that one would have to completely disbelieve the Bible as any kind of an authoritative source of truth to say that intimate relations between two men is not a sin. Unfortunately, relatively few people today read the Bible at all, even fewer read it enough to grasp its message, and even fewer actually believe what it says.

As if the Bible were not enough, the Lord in his mercy has sent us additional witnesses. Prophets of Biblical caliber and authority were restored in 1820 beginning with Joseph Smith. The modern day prophets have confirmed and re-enforced the teachings of the Bible on this subject. From the Proclamation on the Family issued in 1995 (see http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,FF.html):

"...we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets"

I believe the above statement to be true, and hope that our country will be sane enough to avoid the above mention disintegration and its consequences.

From Mire on Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 22:46:27

Matt your logic is absolutely hysterical! The vast majority of the population knows that love between 2 adults in a committed relationship is totally, & completely different than the love you have for your children, or your siblings, your parents or your animals.....I HOPE!!!

You choose oatmeal for breakfast, however some people hate oatmeal and choose eggs & sausage for reasons that can't be explained. For thousands & thousands & thousands of years homosexuality has been a part of the human race, and believe me, it has not and will not be responsible for the destruction of mankind!

Greed, hatred, power, intolerance, fear and subjugation will lead to the destruction of the human race!

~~~Thanks for the great discussion!!

~~~~~Health Care for all!!!

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 02:34:45

Mire,

Thank you for your response. I believe that you are correct in that most of the world does know that love is between two adults a man and a woman when a man and woman share this love and want to take it too a higher level the instituion that is offered is called marriage. I only explain this because as you put it the vast majority of people understand this but yet here we are having this discussion.

Again I choose oatmeal and for the first 32 years of my life I hated oatmeal but a few years back as part of a diet I ate it every day for a few months. I learned to like it, I began to crave it and now as in most decisions I choose to partake of it. lastly, as to the orgin of homosexuality I will not debate. obviously it has exsited for some time. In parallel I would like to point out that I believe murder has exsited since the time of Cain & Able. If murder were legalized and promoted you can certianly see how destructive that would be. certainly tenure alone doesn't determine the goodness or evil of an act.

Sasha I certainly appreciate your support & optimism and pray that you are right and hope that I am wrong.

Mire have you ever considered the Greed, hatred, power, intolerance, fear and subjugation that the current homosexual campaign is fighting against the tradtional marriage. obviously this was not your intention but as a defender of the tradtional marriage I feel very hated. I see the greed of wanting what I have but not willing to do what I do. I watch the intolerance towards tradtional values and the subjective nature of how I am victimized to have them taken away. I hear about the rocks thrown through churches and the graffiti spray painted and all the laws being broken and that all seems pretty destructive to me. So again is the power hungry group the one that attacks or defends. As I stated before I love my homosexual friends and realatives. I help them I serve them, I mow there lawns, bring them goodies, have them over for dinner, counsel them, lift them up when they are feeling down. It is just very discouraging seeing anyone engage in self destructive behavior.

Oh well, here's to world peace.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 14:06:13

Regarding Matt's comment about trainable ability to like one way or the other. If you study the subject of Soviet army recruit hazing you will learn that a promiscuous male that normally likes women in the absence of women for a long time and combined with the lack of a properly enforced law will take what he can have - a man. It was the realization that I could be forced to be that man if I did not take some action that greatly accelerated the process of learning English for me - I went from looking up the word "we" in a dictionary at the age of 16 to scoring 720 out of 800 (99th percentile) at the age of 19.

But, personal history aside, and as gross as it is, I am very well aware of the fact that a guy has a switch that can go both ways, and in some circumstances can flip. I do not buy the argument that a guy is born to like guys and cannot retrain himself.

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 14:24:06

Men will rape each other in prison. It doesn't mean they're homosexual. It means they're deprived and criminal. Homosexuals don't choose to like the same sex because of a lack of the opposite sex, so I don't get the analogy.

Also, homosexuality is more than sex.

I don't see how homosexuality is a self-destructive behavior. A lot of society may condone it, but it doesn't stop the gay community from making contributions. Paying taxes, fighting fires, decorating, whatever. Making children isn't the only way to contribute.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 15:22:41

montelepsy - the two men in prison are not inherently gay. Yet in certain circumstances they retrain their attractions. This means the type of attraction can be retrained, which to me proves wrong the argument that somebody is born gay and there is nothing he can do about it.

A guy that is not in prison physically may have put himself in a virtual prison of sorts by building a wall against women in his mind. But he still has to deal with his drive. Most men will just swallow what they have against women and deal with it. But some can't, but they cannot deal with their drive either, so they direct it towards men. I would call that a disorder rather than a preference.

People may put the discussion of the above tendency in noble words, but if we stop to think, we will have to admit that the deep underlying true nature of males is very unflattering. Each has a beast inside. Ugly things happen when they choose not to control that beast. The difference between a noble and a less noble man is in the extent to which they control that beast, not in the size or strength of the beast. My advice for a woman evaluating a possible future husband - number one thing is to pay attention to how well he can tame his beast.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 15:33:51

Rape is an act of violence, not an expression of love. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation, no matter who is raping who.

When it comes to family, decide what you believe and raise your children accordingly. And leave others free to make that same choice. Sharing your rights with others in no way takes away from your own rights. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue. It's that simple. If you disagree with homosexuality for any reason, that is your right. But you are overstepping when you decide to take away the rights of others to make life choices for themselves. How many years ago was it that Mike and I wouldn't have been allowed to marry because interracial marriage was considered immoral? Not many.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChanTFSmqao

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:08:01

Kungfublonde - not only is it an act of violence, but it is also an act of lust. The man does not see a way to gratify his lust without violence, but at the same time chooses not to control it.

In our current society we condemn violence but we fail to condemn lust. Instead we glorify it and call it love.

We have been correcting some of the wrongs in the social standards of the past such as the unfair treatment of blacks and women. But as it often happens, when you get too zealous about fixing something and lose a vision of balance, you end up breaking something else. We have embraced the paradigm that because some of the restrictions of the past were bad, others must be bad as well. We are like a driver on two-lane highway that skidded to the right shoulder, over-corrects, and is now in the opposite lane of traffic.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:26:03

Rape is not an act of lust, it is an act of violence. Plain and simple.

Allowing for civil rights for all is not overzealous. It isn't anarchy nor is it a free-for-all. This issue is simply allowing two people to get married. Nothing special or extra over what anyone else has.

Homosexuality cannot be reduced to an act of lust. Neither can homosexuality. Being straight or gay cannot be reduced to who you want to have sex with. it is about who you are in love with. At our church there is an elderly lesbian couple. They aren't expressing lust. They are expressing everything in their relationship that any other committed couple expresses; respect, devotion and love, among other things. It's unrealistic to reduce marriage or relationships to sex.

There is sexually deviant behavior of every orientation. But that should be condemned equally, not moreso when it is gay.

And if you believe that being gay is in and of itself deviant, then don't engage in it and teach your children accordingly. If it truly is wrong, there is someone who will handle that and it isn't any of us. In the meantime, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

That's my perspective on the whole issue.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:29:30

The "edit" button doesn't work for me, despite being logged on...

I wanted to correct and say that neither homosexualy or heterosexualty can be reduced to lust.

I'll proof read better next time.

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:30:18

Marriage is not an act of just lust. It's a decision to be committed to one another. It's legal for gays to lust after one another. If being homosexual was just a matter of lust, then they would have what they need and not have to push for marriage.

The fact that they want to be marriaged proves that it's not all about lust.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:32:01

Oh, well said Montelepsy. That's a good point. :)

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:33:47

Hey hon,

We think alike. I didn't read yours before I typed mine.

Hmmm... You think and type much faster than I do.

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:34:32

Sasha I really appreciate your thoughtful well thought out comments.

Mire,

Men will rape each other in prison. It doesn't mean they're homosexual. It means they're deprived and criminal. That seems to be very convenient definition. Should we just say they are opportunists or bisexual or as you put it criminals. To take that a step further are pedophils sexual deprived as well and if so is depravtion an excuse for bad behavior?

Next, Homosexuals don't choose to like the same sex because of a lack of the opposite sex, so I don't get the analogy. well I would have to agree with that for the most part they make the choice for other reasons.

Lastly you explain, homosexuality is more than sex.

I don't see how homosexuality is a self-destructive behavior. A lot of society may condone it, but it doesn't stop the gay community from making contributions. Paying taxes, fighting fires, decorating, whatever. Making children isn't the only way to contribute. To I would say many criminals have paid taxes and been constructive with there lives for the most part only to commit certain whoredoms, murders, and violent acts that call into question there entire exsitence.

I think the worth of every homosexual soul is great but in case we argue as on whether there acts are physically harmful to themselves if not others (and my doctor would say it is absolutely physically harmful)I make no comprise. But even if that point is mute. I believe it is morally destructive to their soul.

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:36:37

Shanti, Mire,

Do you guys run? What are you doing advocating gay rights on a running blog :)

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:38:19

I think and type faster, but you run faster. So combined we are just a whole bunch of fast-ness! :)

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 16:54:43

Matt,

I never said depravity was an excuse for rape. They are deprived and criminal. Not deprived or criminal.

My point in saying that was to counter what Sasha was saying about training. I was saying, criminals will rape each other because the can't control their desires and they don't care about their victims. I believe most rapes in male prisons are done by straight men who lack the opportunity to rape women.

There's no excuse for pedophilia.

Some criminals pay taxes. Some gays pay taxes. The gays who don't pay taxes are criminals. Crime definitely has a negative impact, but what about being gay negatively impacts us?

I won't argue with your sense of morality. I'll respect it. Mine just differs.

Mine tells me that love is finding your soul mate. It tells me love trancends gender. It tells me to accepts those who differ.

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:01:36

I don't know if the comment was souley directed at Shanti and Mire but I do run I just loged 10 miles two hours ago but I am in LA at a very boring conference which is allowing me text from my trio. I keep losing info though.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:03:44

Shanti and Mire have blogs we can't see I think was Mike's point, whereas Matt's (and the rest of ours) is public.

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:06:10

Matt,

Your name is blue, but when I click on it, it goes to the fastrunningblog homepage. What gives?

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:08:09

It was doing that for me too, on the first posting by Matt. But I scrolled down and clicked on a hyperlink to "Matt" and I got his page. He runs a lot :)

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:09:18

Montelepsey,

I appreciate the mutual respect but I am still wonder about this statement. Criminals will rape each other because the can't control their desires. To restate that do you believe they can't or they won't?

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:11:08

My response to that is that most won't and some can't.

From montelepsy on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:16:00

Ditto Rachel's response.

From TylerS on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:26:03

Sasha maybe if I discussed the same topic on a 13 mile training run I could hit the same time that you did. That is only 2 minutes slower than my best half marathon. I agree with montelepsy, this is a running blog so why are we talking about gay rights?

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:28:16

sorry about the link that always bugs me. Its tough with me doing this from the palm though.

I wrote a post and it didn't send so here goes again.

kungfublond,

Not to sound to redundant but I believe in our country every one does have the right to marry just as you and I have. Marriage is of course between two members of the opposite sex. virtually everyone has equal access under the law. As far as homosexuals are concerned for right or wrong they can use the civil unions to show commitment. even Elton John said that was good enough for him. I feel however that the gay rights activist want special treatment under the law and want to change the tradtional defention of marriage to meet their agenda and unfortunately this further errods the standard family unit.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:31:27

Regarding man's the freedom to define morality.

Under the US law a consensual relationship with an individual under 18 is a crime. Not so under the Dutch law. Their age of consent is 12. Most people in the US find that disgusting. Like it or not, this is how they define morality in Netherlands.

After the Communists came to power in the Russia, they began to define their own morality based completely on man's reasoning and with no effort to appeal to some source above. For a while they seemed to be doing OK. In 20 years they converted the country from an agrarian economy to industrial. The Soviet Union conquered the Nazis. It was the first country to send a man into the outer space. The fruits of the godless morality were to be reaped much later. Russia is still reaping them. It will be reaping them for a while.

Interestingly enough, the Russian national anthem now has a reference to God, and the government is starting to make a conscious effort to rebuild the institution of a family. A woman gets a grant from the government when her child turns three if he is still with her.

Changing the subject - the reason Matt's blog link does not work is that he keeps putting www. in front of his blog URL, and I have not yet fixed up the code to handle it.

Kungfublonde - I need more info on the Edit button issue. Which browser are you using? Does the Edit button appear for you at all? What exactly is happening when it does not work?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:37:03

TylerS - this was a 10 mile run, not 13. My nervous system is fairly weak so I cannot discuss anything of significance once the pace is faster than 7:20 per mile due to the need to focus.

The Fast Running Blog is open to discussion of anything that runners find important enough to discuss as long as they stay civil, avoid profanity, personal attacks, etc, and are being otherwise good.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 17:42:45

The Edit button has just worked fine for me using Firefox. One possibly confusing part is that the Edit is done in the comment box at the bottom. I know this is not the most elegant user interface solution but the alternative would have required a whole lot more coding and we are undermanned.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 18:09:21

I love a good discussion, and this has been a great one!! To answer the question, do I run, I have been known to run a step or two and have relatively decent accomplishments in running. At some point I will set up an account, but I love reading what other's have to say. Sasha is always well spoken, even though I don't always agree with his point of view. This discussion, for me, was far more than about gay rights, it is about civil rights. Our history is filled with antiquated laws that excluded people for many reasons including: being a woman, a black, a native american, Chinese, Irish and almost any other race religion or creed. Most of these laws have been repealed, but the prejudice still exists. It is time to stop finding a reason to exclude people who believe differently then ourselves, and no I am not talking about murderers and pedophiles, a little common sense please. Two people who love one another should be guaranteed the same rights under law regardless of gender.

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 18:49:10

Shanti,

Obviously you and I disagree on this issue being civil liberties which I totally support and gay rights which I oppose as a defender of the tradtional marriage. With that being said I assume that as you have stated if two people love each they should be allowed to marry that you must by default be a supporter of polygamy rights as well?

I am also curious to know as Sasha points out the legal age to consent varies from country to country. That being said at what age does pedophilia end and marriage begin. As one of my old Dutch friends points out if you think there laws are liberal you should see what is legal in Thailand. For me I believe I will make up my own moral guidelines regardless of country.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 18:54:57

Ok, when I hit "edit" I get taken to the top of the blog again, and when I scroll down to my post that I want to edit, I don't have the option.

I have tried it in firefox, internet explorer and even aol. I have tried it on my pc as well as my laptop. Am I just not seeing it? It's not a huge deal, I can just post my corrections in a separate response if I need to. I'm happy with the blog and have no complaints, just giving you some feedback.

As for marriage, I believe it should be between any two people, excluding none. I'm glad Elton John is happy, but he does not represent all gay people, just as Paris Hilton does not represent me as a heterosexual woman.

Set up a blog, Shanti!

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 18:57:17

Shanti:

Our history is all full of laws and customs that keep the society going. There is no such thing as an antiquated law. There is only a law that is contrary to the will of God. We have had our fair share of those, and we've gotten rid of some of them. Unfortunately we have replaced them with others that are just as wrong.

And in the process of restructuring we are beginning to challenge what has been obvious to many generations before us. Just because they did not have cars, airplanes, and computers does not mean they had it all wrong. In many ways they had more common sense than we do now. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, (who can argue with how God has set it up in the area of the choice-consequence delay time window?) only our children or perhaps grandchildren will know in this life that our ancestors were right and we were wrong if we continue to think the way our society does. But at least they will have a chance to change. We, on the other hand, will be viewing them in deep regret from the spirit world being unable to reverse our mistakes.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 18:59:24

Kungfublonde - scroll down all the way to the bottom after you click on Edit.

From sasha on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 19:40:43

I tried it and it worked that time, in firefox. Thanks :)

From Burt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 19:45:44

Mike and Rachel - Don't let the following comments get in the way of our new found friendship. I totally disagree with you on most everything you said. Marriage is not about two people that love each other regardless of gender. And homosexuality is nothing more than lustful sex. Older gay couples that are still together may have developed a love for one another, but that love developed out of what once was lustful and unnatural desires. Over the years they've convinced themselves that there was nothing wrong with them to begin with. And to say that allowing people of the same sex to get married does not hurt anyone else is sooo wrong. What of a child that is born into a society where it is okay for a man to marry a man? They may think it is all right even if they are taught differently. This will plant seeds of curiosity that will bloom into actions of debauchery and other unsafe practices. Think of the children!

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 19:48:26

um... i'm an idiot. I was going to write TO Sasha, but instead I typed Sasha as my name. ... and now I can't edit it because I'm not Sasha! :)

So feel free to delete that one, Sasha. Or leave it up as evidence of me being a total dope.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 19:55:55

All I think about is my children, Burt. And we can totally disagree on everything you just said and I can still think you are one of the funniest, nicest guys on the blog.

Mike and I grew up around gay people and neither of us has ever considered being gay. I don't get it when people say it can be influenced or they can choose it. Really? You can? Because man, if I was told I HAVE to marry a woman, I'd stay single. I love my best friend very much. I could never be her wife. I don't have that switch. I grew up knowing about homosexuality, and was even taught that "to each his own" and have never had a single moment of confusion.

My children have known a few gay couples in their lives. Teaching them to accept people of different ethnicities, different cultures and different sexual orientations has only made them better people.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 20:53:41

Matt, I am curious to know how you get Polygamy out of two people who love each other... Poly means many, generally considered to mean more than two. I am not a proponent of polygamy, I am a proponent of two committed people being afforded the same rights under the law. I will state my original argument - marriage is simply a contract between two people and the State. If you believe there is a spiritual component to it than that is between you and your faith. When you marry in your church, you are making a commitment to each other under the rules governing your faith, those rules are different than the marriage license you sign between you and the State. The rules of one faith should not be allowed to govern the State.

In regards to the will of God, or God's law, I find that to be an interesting point. Spiritual law has been as flexible as civil law. In the LDS faith alone, the spiritual laws have changed to eliminate polygamy. The church founders practiced and preached polygamy and only after pressure from the Federal government did spiritual law change. It is not different than blacks and the priesthood, the law changed when pressured from the State governing body. New religions are formed when spiritual laws are not agreed upon and new laws are written. Henry VIII was instrumental in changing spiritual law to allow divorce. My question is, what will happen if gay marriage is made the law of the land, will churches ultimately adopt new laws and accept the new positions as they have in the past?

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 21:01:59

I object I don't think you are a dope at all. I think you are very well thought out articulate woman.

I know you don't agree with some of the logic here but take a step back to the beginning and one of the things I mentioned was that there is a deep routed fundamental difference between men and women. Sasha spoke of the beast and taming it. As a man I think that is a very pliable definition defention but men and women are quite diiferent. Usually women have learned hatred or distrust towards men through abuse (sexual, physical, or emotional). They turn to homosexuality for companionship gratification tends to be more of an after thought. On a more personal not my my mother died at the age of 13 my father remarried and my youngest sister was born when I was 18. Two years later my father passed away and Katie was raised soley by her mother. My step mother has a very diverse family and my little sister was raised with many bad role models close by. My step mother although generally I good person is very inactive physically and the labors of child rearing frequently but her out. Katie grew to be quite obease about 300 pounds. She lacked general parenting and was left to her own. She experienced with drugs and promoscuity. After failed realationships largely due to poor role modeling she has now turned to homosexuality. she is in so much need of love and grasps at all the wrong things to find it. In her example I feel confident that it was excepting the behavior that eventually lead to her experimentation and now her qualifying herself as gay.

Rachel you of course and your daughters are beautiful women. I am sure at times you have experienced rejection but not to the extent that most likely she has. Now that being said I agree we shouldn't be unaccepting of people because of race, religion, ethnic culture, even sexual orientation. My caviate being we love the person not the behavior. I believe people can change and repent. I make many mistakes every day and pray I will be judged but what I am striving to become and not by my shortfalls.

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 21:28:15

Shanti,

In countries in the middle east that allow poloygamy the contract is between two people the man and woman. Later on if that man enters another contract he does so again with another woman. The first wife has no say in the matter. so by your own defintion this appears to be marriage. I assumed for that reason you would support such behaviors. I however do not. I find it interesting however that my definition you except this but in practical reality you don't. That seems mighty convenient.

Moving on I wrote four papers in college on poloygamy in mormonism and there union was usally only permitted after all parties excepted. There are a few notable exceptions.

Summing up though in LDS and old testament philosophy I don't claim to be an expert even though I have studied both but the Lord sees fit to do things in his own timetables not mans. As far as blacks in the priesthood in early church history blacks had the priesthood then lost it most likely due to slavery issues and and had it restored again in modern times. But gay realationships the scriptures are quite clear about. It may seem convenient in old testament times we have seen poloygamy ordained and taken away. likewise we have seen the Lords unwillingness to give his fullness to an inslaved people.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 21:59:18

I appreciate the response. Many middle east countries also completely suppress the rights of women, and women have no legal standing. I do not support polygamy under any definition, especially when one party is only recognized as property. Randal Robinson accurately quotes, "If you cannot deny consent, you cannot give it."

Many of the middle eastern countries you refer to are examples of when the predominant faith are used to repress and subvert the rights of individuals. People should have the right to practice the faith they choose and enter under covenants of marriage for their choice of faith. The same religious covenants should not be extended between individuals and the State. I certainly respect your opinion, I just happen to disagree with it, and I am happy to have the right and ability to do so.

Your time line on blacks seem contradictory. They did not have the priesthood when they were slaves, they were slaves when the church was founded - no priesthood. The slaves were freed in the 1860's. They were given the priesthood after the civil rights movement in the 1960's. What happened to the 100 years they were free?

I must state emphatically that I have no issue with the LDS faith or any faith for that matter, many of my dearest friends are Mormon, but an acknowledgment of the accurate history and behaviors of the early church cannot be ignored and should be reconciled.

From Burt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 22:06:53

Rachel - your husband is way funnier than I am. Almost every time I read one of his entries I start laughing so hard that my chicken fat starts bouncing up and down. Anyway, I think if someone started having ideas planted in their minds, which is really easy to do even now with things that can be found on the internet, then it could be all the more easy for them to decide to have a homosexual experience.

Shanti - what happens if more than two people say they love each other and that they are commited to living together as a happy trio?

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 22:28:29

I am not sure how I can be more clear, I am not talking about polygamy. In my last post, I stated clearly, I am opposed to polygamy. Marriage is a contract between the state and two people, I believe regardless of gender. How is it that every time I talk about this issue the first thing people talk about is the introduction of polygamy, please tell me where this comes from? The only time in US history polygamy was an issue was when the LDS church introduced it in the 1830's. The Federal government put an end to with a series of legislation. Statehood was only granted after the LDS church agreed to end the practice.

But, back to the point, we are talking about a marriage between just two, count them, two people regardless of gender!

From air darkhorse on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 22:46:20

I wonder, Should I be able to marry my parrot? We have a committed relatonship also.. What a stupid conversation and a waste of time in my opinion. There are more important things to worry about.

From Burt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 23:06:14

I know you said you are opposed to polygamy. But by the same logic you are using about gay rights, as you clearly stated, "Two people who love one another should be guaranteed the same rights under law regardless of gender.", why couldn't more than two people use that same argument? If the definition of marriage is coming into question, who is to say that it has to be just two people, let alone of different sexes? You see, the point is if we state that marriage is the union of two people regardless of gender, someone else is going to say that marriage is the union of an uspecified amount of people regardless of gender. And then Air Darkhorse is going to marry his parrot. Where does it end? By the way, Darkhorse, (can I call you that?), if you thought this was a dumb conversation, you probably shouldn't have read through all 50 comments and posted on it because now you'll be getting then other 50 in your email inbox.

From Burt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 23:11:40

Sorry, *'the' other 50 in your email inbox.* (Including the ones like this where we have to apologize for our typos.)

From Matt on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 23:33:22

Shanti,

I know that neither you nor I agree with poloygamy but when you use the same agruements it seems a little hypocritical that you would be so opposed to the other view point. that is why I point it out and hope you will consider the ramifications of one argument in realtion to another.

From mikemac on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 01:11:28

I know that this is not my conversation but if I may... The problems lies with what pleases me. I want,I believe,I think,I,I,I.The sulotion is simple, follow the creator's(GOD)word that has been left for us to pattern our lives by,no more ,no less.Throughout the old testament GOD showed how he delt with people who did'nt follow his laws.We all will have to answer for the way that we live our lives on judgment day.It is true that times (man) has changed,but GODS word is still the same.

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 01:53:43

I agree about whose responsibility it is to judge. I made that point early on. As a voter, I also have a point of view on the topic that is valid and worthwhile. I never would have imagined I'd be drawn into a conversation about it on a running blog, though :)

To those of you who took the time to explain your positions thoughtfully and respectfully, I appreciate your arguments and that you took the time to express yourselves here. My position hasn't changed, but there were some good points raised I had not considered before. On both sides, in fact. I always appreciate having my views on relevant topics challenged. I personally can agree to disagree.

From The Howling Commando on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 07:53:47

Oh boy. What did I start? I apologize for starting this forest fire on Sasha's thread! I was gone three days and boom! I start another "hot" thread I didn't know about :)

From montelepsy on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:23:38

Burt,

I don't buy the slippery slope argument that allowing gays to marry will lead to man-chipmunk, women-appliance, man-woman-woman to the nth, etc.

Blacks and women were rightly given suffrage. No one has pushed to allow animals to vote.

No worries about the friendship thing, I'm too liberal to not like someone who disagrees with me.

From Burt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:07:18

Well, back when blacks and women didn't have the right to vote there were probably people that thought it wasn't morally right for them to. We now know that that is ludicrous. However, it is morally wrong for two people of the same gender to be together. I believe that. And even if society changes its viewpoint, I will still continue to believe that.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:13:57

I would like to throw a new challenge to those who have argued that marriage should be defined as a union of two committed people regardless of gender. I have not yet seen anything said about why the number should be limited to two. I want to see a logical reason as to why two is a special number. I can construct some solid logical arguments why that upper bound number should be higher. E.g. it would reduce the number of love triangle related violent crimes, it would reduce the divorce rate if all three or more individuals involved did not view the relationship as being exclusive, etc. In fact, if somebody brought those arguments to me, my only defense would be that it is against God's will.

Again, in case somebody missed that, I want to see LOGICAL arguments with no appeal to religion, tradition, or personal sense of taste (e.g "it's gross" does not work). I will act as the devil's advocate, which is easy for me to do due to my upbringing in the Soviet culture and not having the regular moral inhibitions of the American society natively implanted into me.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:15:19

Interesting, there are are still people who hold prejudice towards blacks and women, you need only to look at the desparity in poverty rates among blacks and whites, not to mention women still earn significantly less than men in the same position. Talk about a slippery slope, it is easy to find ways to disciminate against others, moral high ground seems to be the most prominent.

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:28:19

All stigmas of polyogamy aside (women being oppressed or forced into it, it being cult-like or oppressive), the only reason I have against it is that the committment of marriage includes the promise to "forsake all others." You promise your life to ONE person, that's what makes it marriage. That's the only logical, non-judgemental reason I see.

I have heard arguments along the lines of it will place a burden on insurance to cover 3 spouses, so rates will go up and impact everyone else. You have to be careful deciding where people's rights start to place an undue burden on the rest of society.

Since this is purely hypothetical and not an issue that is impacting so many Americans right now, it's easy to toss around theories. Gay rights are real, they are relevant and they are happening right now. If polygamists are feeling oppressed, they need to speak up and make their case. Just like millions of homosexuals and civil rights activists are.

From Burt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:28:27

Sasha - I'm glad to see that you still are commenting on your own topic. I was beginning to think that we were taking over and becoming an annoyance to you. After all, some of the goofs that kept Walter's thread going for 345 comments have contributed to this discussion. I also like how you are playing devil's advocate and coming up with your own arguments against yourself. I'm curious to know what other arguments could be given, too.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:36:00

Shanti,

You bring up a good point but my question would what is to be done of it. We can't legislate againist free will very effectively. We know that by affirmative action you further the prejudice for one group againist another. It is unfortunate I agree but what is the solution. There are also vast culture differences between the races and educational differences that cause one race to think differently then another. Case in point on the prop 8 movement in CA blacks voted for prop 8 by nearly 2 to 1. This seems a little curious if you really believe it was a civil rights movement because those people who had most recently had to fight for civil liberties would seem to be the most supportative. Also the blacks voted for Obama by close to 90 percent which shows the deep divide on this polotical issue.

It is noteworthy that with the prejudices that do exist that during the last election a black man and woman were both on the presidential tickets. I again however I concur it is unfortunate that prejudices are still in America.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:53:13

kungfublond,

Just an FYI poloygamist in UT, AZ, & CO have been support of gay marriage because they know it hitches there wagon to rights as well. I believe modern day poloygamy is wrong because it is so controlling and as I have meet women who have escaped its clutches I have been informed of the many evils made and free agency lost. of course there are women who are very happy in these unions as well. If it were legal I think that would open doors but also tend to condone the behavior. I make no reservations that I am against this instituion but I gave up on logic for many of my ethics long ago.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 13:33:03

Alright Sasha, I will bite. Logic more or less goes out the window when religion is brought into an argument so let me start by asking you the question; keeping God,faith and religion out the equation, why did you choose to have just one wife, why a woman for that matter?

In regards to your logic on why to cap marriage at just two: Domestic violence rates actually go up in relationships involving more people even if it is consentual. There is plenty of evidence to support multi-party relationships are wrought with far more problems and violence than couple based relationships.

Divorce would not be simple matter by any means, say one person wants out, what then? Property division becomes a bigger problem along with division of assets and so on.

What about children? Marriage defines children to be the property of all parties in a marriage, biology does not have anything to do with it. If the marriage completely dissolves and you have 5 parties and 25 children what then?

These are just simple arguments to keep marriage as a commitment between just two people.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 13:56:41

Shanti,

In response to your comment last night I have responded three times and my trio keeps blowing it so I believe this time I will break it up and I hope my history will be as clear.

In early mormonism blacks were baptized and given the priesthood. I wrote two papers on this in the sam class I wrote the poloygamy paper. in fact if memory serves me correctly (the class was nearly 20 years ago) I believe Joseph Smith himself ordained at least one of them he also housed blacks and treated them the same as he did other saints. more to follow.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 14:07:58

As the church migrated from the Northeast into Ohio, Illinois, and Missouri, slavery became more of an issue and my personal research would indicate that blacks stopped receiving the priesthood because of political oppression and because they were no longer free. It is difficult to give the priesthood of the Lord to someone who is not free and thusly not accountable for his actions. For example many atrocities were waged againist slaves including forced sexual realationships for breeding purposes. Obviously, you wouldn't make someone accountable for the Lords priesthood when the can't be accountable for there own acts. more to come.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 14:20:18

Over 95 percent of orthdox mormons have no idea of this history ask 10 lds bishops and you will be lucky if one has any knowledge of this history. Now in 1861 slavery was ended but it wasn't until 1865 that slaves were freed. Even then they weren't treated fairly and even statements by President Lincoln would lead you to believe he though they were second class. As by evidence of the civil rights movement blacks were not trully free until the 1960's. I make no apolgies for the bad behavior that went on during this era I am just restatinf the history. more to come.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 14:41:36

If you want to fault the LDS for anything. It should be for the time it took from the end of the civil rights era until 1979 suffice it for me to say that I walk by faith and if my black LDS friends can except this so can I. I don't always undertand the Lords timetables. One of my dear LDS friends is Eugene Orr he joined the church during the civil rights movement and was a member of the Genesis ward (the first all black congregation) in Salt Lake City. The ward was presided over by Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, and Boyd K. Packer some very noteworthy names in LDS leadership. He told me of the compasion of this men. He also told me of the violence he experienced in visiting his childhood home in Florida when he visited the local LDS congregations. but even after being beaten by ignorant mormon bullies. He sat through Sunday service. Eugen is one of my civil rights heros and think about the stories he has told me still brings tears to my eyes. He was one of the first blacks to receive the priesthood and more to come.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 14:55:06

In the modern era and if he can hold no ill judgement against his oppresors neither can I and believe although I have reasons to be judgemental I realize judgement is the Lords and I am commanded. Please forgive me if it just seems hard. Anyway that is the history which usally goes untold. If anyone tells you that mormons believe

blacks are cursed tell them to get some good info there are still a lot of urban legends out there and ignorance. As a high priest in the LDS faith I apologize for members ignorance but not the churches stance. In your own words shanti if you can not give consent you cannot deny it might very well be the main reason why blacks we denied the priesthood for so long. not near as elaquent as the second time I wrote it but you get the story. Peace.

From Mire on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 16:01:22

The Mormon religion is full of contradictions. The leader/founder of the Mormon faith practiced polygamy..It's a well known fact Joseph Smith had at least 27 wives. Ten of them already married to other men. Also about a third of Joseph Smith's plural wives were teenagers, including two fourteen-year-old girls. So one could say that Mormons follow the teachings of...I think the definition, as US law defines it, a pedophile. Also as part of his plural marriages, were 2 sisters.

Another point..who's God/Lord are we talking about? There are over 38,000 different versions of Christianity alone, all of whom vehemently claim their version is God's law.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 16:10:35

“The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.” MLK

We all have an obligation to speak against injustice.

In regards to protection of individual rights and government, I leave you with a quote by Ayn Rand:

“Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).”

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 17:44:50

Mire,

Wow that is a mouthful. I am hoping on a plane in LA now can you give me the source of where you heard the 27 wives. I have heard it before but I am just wondering where you got this well known fact as you call it. After I get that maybe we can address some of the other common misconception. By the way have you ever read the The Book of Mormon or do you just get your info from those who hate mormonism?

From fly on the wall on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 18:39:07

I thought it was 33.

http://www.signaturebooks.com/insacred.htm

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 18:43:53

Shanti, that was your best post. It sums up the entirety of this issue for me.

Fly, welcome to the discussion:)

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 19:02:00

Matt:

Mire most likely got it out of Wikipedia article on Joseph Smith which references as the source Richard L. Bushman, Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling, p. 437. Richard Bushman is a historian and active member of the church. He still remained active and faithful after examining whatever historical evidence for the claim above but he felt obligated to publish it as a historian.

Shanti - I have studied math and computer science enough to know how faulty human logic can get, especially my own. I have won math olympiads, passed hard top-level university tests, graduated with a degree in computer science, have successfully programmed for a living, and authored two computer books. That takes above average logical unit in the brain. But yet early on in my life I realized that I was not obtaining truth with my logical unit. It was coming from some unknown invisible source, it felt clean and pure, and I just saw it. Then I used logic to solidify my understanding of what I had just seen and to prove to others that I really understood the matter. And along with that I have continually observed the faulty nature of my logical unit - how prone it is to error, and how quickly it overheats.

This realization eventually led me to acquiring faith in God. I finally understood the source of the pure knowledge. So I rely on faith first to obtain the knowledge of what is true, and then use logic only to solidify in my mind and to share it with others who may not have access to the same gift.

When Sarah and I got married I knew she was the right woman through faith. I did not act logically at all. I got back from my mission, called her the same day, we went for a walk near the Provo Temple and I proposed with no ring. She said yes two weeks later after I had clumsily but still successfully changed her niece's diaper, and we were married within 2.5 months. I am thankful I had the wisdom to disable my logical unit and enable and fine tune my faith unit at the time.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 22:01:25

Shanti,

Beautiful quotes. I don't feel any conflicts with either thought and my thought process though. “The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.”

For Satan to succedd all that is needed is for good men to do nothing that is why I stand for Virtue and fight obscenity.

Ayn Rand might be my favorite atheist author and Atlas Shrugged is probaly my very favoriteis probably one of my top ten most influential books in my life. She is probaly one of the biggest reasons that I feel compeled to speak against injustice and inequality.

But when we speak of individual rights it is important to view how the rights of the individual don't over step the rights of the group or other individuals. For instance if one indvidual chooses to worship Satan and wants to commit blood sacrfice we must protect the indvidual or maybe closer to home if one individual wants to display pornographic images on their front lawn and takes forces others to view the obscene we shouldn't stand for that.

“Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).”

Couldn't agree more.

From fly on the wall on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:27:52

I submit for consideration:

"We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, UNLESS their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; ...that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul."

Respectfully, a gentile in Zion

From Jamck on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 18:01:27

To say that Mormons follow the teachings of a pedophile is a bit absurd. To apply current laws and definitions that have changed through the years (which is how this discussion got started) is not really logical. A lot of people are getting married for their first time. I'm sure that it wouldn't be difficult to find a culture somewhere back in time where they called all people in their thirties "DEAD" and clearly dead people can't reproduce, so our new culture couldn't last - in their opinion. Again, not very logical.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 18:25:00

Regarding women earning less even when doing the same job. I will not speak for the entire economy, but I can say something about my sector - computer programming. First, I would question the method of defining the "same job". Without examining the actual work you cannot possibly tell if they are doing the same job. Both could have the title of Software Engineer on books, and one could be a lot more skillful and productive than the other by a wide margin. Thus the difference in compensation. E.g I saw a job posting recently that offered a salary range of 70K-100K. I have an idea of how they're going to decide if it is going to be 70K or 100K - ask the applicant to submit some sample code, or give him a test of some kind in the interview. But regardless of the result, the title will be the same.

Throughout my life I have observed a number of men and women working in the area. There is a clear gender difference between how they approach problems. A woman wants things to fit into a pattern, does not like surprises very much, gets concerned when she is being taken for a wild ride. A man is more tolerant of surprises, and will go for wild ride just for fun. Additionally, he has this quality that I would describe as the calm death grip that I've never seen in a female programmer.

Computer work often involves a wild ride and cannot be done effectively without a death grip. The grim reality of the free market makes it difficult for those who do not have those qualities to compete. It is the very nature of the job, not any kind of prejudice that discriminates against women. In fact, many larger companies are desperate for female programmers, and if anything will discriminate the other way preferring a less qualified woman over a man.

The fact that many such jobs exist should not be a surprise. Consider the job of a professional runner except add to that the business reality aspect that you can only pay for how fast the runner covers the distance and that's it. No gender separation, we are only concerned about pure performance. This would make life miserable for women, runners like Paula Radcliffe would be reduced to picking crumbs trying to win $2000 in the Richmond marathon. Things would be a lot worse if we did this in professional boxing or wrestling.

Or imagine living in a free market agrarian/hunting economy where your physical strength and muscle coordination is the number one driver of your ability to produce. Men would be getting better paying jobs. Women would have to rely on the mercy of men to survive. Which is what has happened for years.

Our economy today is not quite that bad for women, or at least it appears to be. However, there are many high paying office jobs where it may just as well be a physical strength job due to the natural differences between men and women. Yet we send women out in the wild to do those jobs and expect them to compete with men for survival. And we think it increases women's rights. Anybody who would suggest otherwise (like me) runs a serious risk of being accused of bigotry and prejudice.

We are concerned that if we were to admit the gender difference, this would somehow belittle the woman. Yet in running, even though we recognize the natural gender handicap, most women do not feel belittled. In fact, they would loudly protest, and rightfully so, if we removed that recognition.

Why is it different in business? First, the performance is difficult to measure as accurately as you would in a sport. Second, free market is not conducive to giving women the privilege of competing for a certain reward only against women.

What should we do about it?

The current solution is to stick your head in the sand, scream there is no gender difference, and vilify everybody who dares disagree. This hurts the economy as a whole, and women most of all. The Economic Boston Qualifier does not discriminate against gender, so a woman now has to run 3:10 instead of 3:40 to make it. Nor does the winning prize - Paula now has to race Haile to get her world-record paycheck.

Better solution. Recognize the handicap . Teach and require men to be gentlemen. Every able man must provide for a woman to some degree. He can marry, he can find a woman he will support that he knows, or he can support a woman he does not know through taxes. She can work for fun if she wants to, see how many guys she can "chick", but she should not have to compete against men in the job market just to survive.

From Jamck on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 19:02:52

If our society paid people for their performance in raising the next generation, women would outperform men nearly all the time. Of course, a man and a women working as a team could outperform many women. So it is, that history has developed a pattern where the best combination for the team is to have the women do what they do best and the men do what they do best. It's not sexist, it's just a win-win situation. Of course, our society doesn't pay for you to raise children, but if you do a good job, it will pay huge dividends later.

In this situation, should men push for the opportunity to not have a "glass ceiling" when parenting while their spouse works? Certainly not, you'll most likely find out years or just months later that they can't really compete...

From Shanti on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 21:15:29

Words spoken like a true patriarchal white male. To deny gender bias really exists in the workplace is obsurb, and using sport to make the point is a poor example. Gender bias does exist in sport as much or more than any other industry. Name one female athlete in mainstream sport that earns what a male earns? Basketball, soccer, cycling, baseball, golf, skiing, the list goes on and on. Physiology dictates women will not perform most sports as well as men, but the money pay out for women's sport does not even come close to men's.

Every year the US government puts out reports on the gender gap in the workplace, and although it has narrowed, women still make significantly less money then men for performing the same job titles. I will not argue skill set on the job, the bias is set before the applicant even enters the door.

Take your head out of the sand and acknowledge the reality that gender bias exists and it has nothing to do with level of skill.

From Burt on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 21:44:36

Using an argument against an argument that there is gender bias in sport is absurd. Of course men make more in sports. Tens and thousands of people go to watch them perform. You don't get the same turn out at a women's sporting event. Why not? Level of skill.

From kungfublonde on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 22:10:48

What has happened to this discussion? I missed te part where it logically morphed into being about gender equality in the workplace...

From Shanti on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 23:16:32

Kungfublonde: Logic has been lost in this argument long ago. Rationality tends to go out the window when your defense of a position relies on abstract concepts of faith and not fact. Viewpoints here have been presented through the window of one branch of the Christian Faith, believing soley their's holds all the answers. Blind Faith is just that, Blind! The unwillingness to look at the issue as a civil issue or through the lens of anyone else's concept of faith is not only short sighted, it is ignorant. The lack of respect for other positions whether based on civil rights or other religious teachings is what continues to breed such bitter resentment and intolerance.

I stand by my original statements: the issue is about civil rights and equality. It seems everyone here is blind to fact that the inequities we are talking about all stemmed from discrimination at some point. When you discriminate for any reason you create prejudice, which lasts for generations. I will use Burt's quote to illustrate the point:

"However, it is morally wrong for two people of the same gender to be together. I believe that. And even if society changes its viewpoint, I will still continue to believe that."

The prejudice will continue through his generation and likely that of his children.

It is sad for me to see the venomous attitudes displayed and it dims my hopes that we can actually come together as one people and love each other for our own humanity.

From Jason McK on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 00:30:28

Shanti: It's good to see that you have no prejudices (well, except for "Words spoken like a true patriarchal white male.")

As far as the gender bias in the workplace, I've been trying to work through this one for years, as I think that how a person performs a job is what should matter...negotiation skills will play a part in pay, but if everything else is equal, men and women should make the same amount of money for the same job, not the same job title but the same job.

If women get payed less for doing the exact same job, and the purpose of a business it to make money (profits) by selling goods and services and paying as little as possible to do this, then surely, if men and women actually do the same job and women gets paid less, then surely, anyone who is starting their second or third business would know that they should only hire women - reducing the bottom line, enabling them to sell the same goods and services cheaper than anyone else and taking over the entire market. Where is that business?

From Jason McK on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 00:37:40

Shanti: Again, you are not much different than any one else (neither am I.) You quote Burt to say that the prejudice will continue for generations because of his belief - regardless of what society believes. You are the same - you believe that gender bias exists and regardless of what anyone else says, you will not change your belief either.

From Shanti on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:04:06

Jason, your logic is as flawed as the rest. Gender bias is not a prejudice, it is a reality based on fact and supported by actual data. To deny that women are being paid less then men in the US workforce, for the same job, is to turn a blind eye to the facts. There are numerous examples of companies that hire women so they can pay less. Let's talk Walmart for example. Walmart's hourly employees are made up of approximately 67% women who make on average $1100 per year less then the men - same job. As far as advancement, only 33% of salaried management are women, paid an average of $5200 less per year for the same jobs. The higher level the job, the lower the percentage of women and the higher the gap in salary. This is just one company, one that many model their businesses after, and the gender gap exists at ALL levels of employment. I hold no prejudice against gender, I just happen to see the reality of early held prejudices against women still being played out today, and I have the facts to support it.

Prejudice is defined:

injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights ; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

From Burt on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:40:07

What? Women aren't being damaged due to the action or disregard to their legal right to make the same amount as men? Now you don't make any sense. But that's fine. You already discredited anything you had to say when you made a disgusting inuendo about a parrot and a broom stick.

Homosexuality is immoral and wrong just as engaging in sexual activities outside the bonds of marriage is immoral and wrong. My atheist friend said it best, "These people are perverts." I'm done.

From kungfublonde on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:58:51

It's too bad this topic got so convoluted and even brought in some unnecessary attacks. I know it's one many of us feel strongly about, but how can you bring about any change or understanding if you can't stay focused?

Fly and Shanti brought in the best quotes to support my perspective. You don't have to like homosexuality or think it's ok for your life. I just don't think anyone has the moral or ethical right to tell another person what they can do with their heart or in their bedroom with another consenting adult. It's weird to me that anyone thinks that's their business. Really, why do you care? Seriously. It is totally none of your business.

To quote a man I admire, Paul Newman,

"I'm a supporter of gay rights. And not a closet supporter either. From the time I was a kid, I have never been able to understand attacks upon the gay community. There are so many qualities that make up a human being... by the time I get through with all the things that I really admire about people, what they do with their private parts is probably so low on the list that it is irrelevant."

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 13:02:36

Shanti:

Have you done a thorough audit of Walmart to make sure that the less paid women perform on par with men? I imagine it would be difficult to do unless you have worked closely in the company at that level. As I mentioned earlier, in my experience I've seen a lot of performance variations among the positions that would appear the same to a casual outside observer.

My thoughts are with Jason. We have a very free market. US businesses that succeed are very very money smart. They will do what it takes to do things for less. They will outsource their operations to a third-world country if they can to cut their costs. It seems to me that a business like Walmart would be hiring women for management positions to take advantage of them just like it hires Latinos for the entry level jobs if they could give the same performance for less.

I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding about jobs in our culture. We often think of a job as some form of entitlement, some glorified form of welfare, some bounty bestowed by the powers above, rather than a burden of responsibility that requires skill, natural ability, creativity, patience, and commitment. We think "I want the job" more than "It is good for the business, the economy, and our country for me to have this job". With that mindset, the only way you'll have financial equality between men and women is if you pay women the same as men regardless of performance. Which we try to do, but we can only afford that much. It is hard to legislate against natural laws.

Much better to legislate with nature than against it. Recognize that men on average have a better natural ability to provide the necessities of life, and thus are responsible to provide for themselves and for the women as well.

Running is one area where rules are set up to achieve a true honest equality of men and women. It is all fair and square. Top women get paid the same as top men. How is that accomplished, and what can we learn from it?

The nature of the sport forces us to recognize the natural gender handicap. So we do not pretend it does not exist, but rather adjust the rules so that a woman can get as much fulfillment as a runner as a man. We face the reality and deal with it, and thus are able to meet our goal.

The same thing needs to be done in business. We cannot afford to have women-only jobs in a competitive market. But we can have laws that require men to somehow compensate women for the natural gender handicap. I believe that is the only way we will ever accomplish true honest equality to the satisfaction of both genders.

From Matt on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 14:40:03

Wow again, I come back from my trip decide the argument is winding down I check in and you all have continued to slam. My first impulse was to do nothing at all but as I thought about it my name is all over this thread so I figure if I do nothing people will assume my position on the matter. When I started reading the email post somehow I didn’t see Sasha’s until now and again I marvel at the way you articulate your position. I would feel inclined to agree with Shanti on quite a few points but for considerably different reasons then the arguments you make. I would agree that your slam on patriarchal white males seems to be a bit personal and prejudicial.

Nevertheless, gender bias does exist and in some instances. I am not sure anyone is arguing that it does not. Some will say that is bad and some will say that its good and I will straddle the fence and say it is both. It is unfortunate and fortunate that we are different but it doesn’t stop at the sexes. It is true of races, age, culture, and individuals. Diversity is what makes the world great. If we were all equally adept at the same things how terrible would that be. Back to sports I think Paula Radcliff is the best long distance runner on the planet bar none( I also wouldn’t be surprised if her purse were the largest over the last five years of any runner male or female but I have no idea and won’t waste the time to research it). I say that knowing that men (generally speaking stereotype) are better runners but when you compare her to her field and the handicap for sex I would be willing to debate otherwise (I know that sports debates are incredible argumentative so I usually stay clear). I also know that most sports professionals make more money than most school teachers but that is capitalism and for that matter socialism at work. In capitalist society we consume more of the product and supply and demand determines pay. In socialism the top athlete glorifies the country and is pampered to compete.

This last sports season I have spent far more time watching one of my favorite college girl’s soccer teams then I have any male franchise during the same time period. I realize I am in the minority but it is what interests me. I also feel like the free market gives us the option.

I think it would be great if everyone were paid for their value but a question may exist in how we determine value. Sasha brought up lots of good points let me toss out a few more. I have been at my company 14 years one of my female coworkers 2 and ½. This last year she has beat me big time in sales should she make more? When we travel to trade shows I set her free she is more attractive than me men will come and talk to her initially, she has loads of great contacts. She is younger than me she works harder. We both make money for the company but it doesn’t seem fair that she should make less. Of course I don’t know if I should get a reduction. In the past I helped build the company to what it is. My face is recognized as one of the key faces to the company. I provide stability, leadership years of industry wisdom and other strengths. I also provide uninterrupted tenure. I told my boss to hire her or else he was an idiot. I think I have other strengths and going forward she has made no qualms about the fact she will be getting pregnant and wanting to stay at home.

Other examples may be different but there are similarities men tend to work nonstop through adult hood. Sasha pointed out some weaknesses women have and I believe there are quite a few more strengths but needless to say there are strengths and weaknesses. I think women tend to be more creative. Women are more attractive especially in youthful late 20’s to late 40’s. Female sales people in b2b tend to better at that age while men do better from their mid 30’s to mid 50’s. After that age discrimination sets in and both appear to be out of touch. Not from a company perspective but from a prospective discriminatory view. I can’t force people not to make judgments. Women tend to communicate better, they have a better eye for fashion, and they are less domineering. The list could go on.

I choose to accept these differences. Diversity makes us great occasionally we need somebody who doesn’t write quite as good of code but brings other insights to a project. Is it bad or just who we are. If a checker at Wal-Mart scans 854 items an hour and another averages 712 do we pay one more then another. May be the lesser has worked longer and the other will quit before offsetting training time. Maybe one takes more smoke breaks. Maybe one get more complaints from customers maybe one is so dang cute customers keep coming back. There could be an endless list of reasons why. Equality in pay is a nice idea but it is so hard to measure.

As the primary bread winner for my family I would love to stay home and be with the kids and clean house. I clean toilets as well as any man I know, I do dishes every night I do laundry I coach three soccer teams and work in the nursery at church but school teaching doesn’t pay as well as my sales and analysis skills so I work why my wife stays home. Not all people are that fortunate nor should they be forced to. It is unfortunate that money has become so important to people that they are tempted to forsake family duties to earn additional money. I wish I could more easily work from home and I am disappointed when women choose to enter the work place there isn’t more economic equality but I don’t believe it is totally prejudiced and I feel the free market is slowly correcting it and government should attempt to stay out. My definition of prejudice would be “having incorrect preconceived notions about a person based off of race, religion, sex, culture, age, or appearance. That leads impartial favoritism for good or bad. If we look up the word we can find considerable definitions and not all prejudice would be bad it is usually just unfair. If we show prejudice towards a situation rather than a person some might say that is just is good reasoning. Anyway that is my view. Individuals will always be different and if that is not destructive to the general public we should try to interfere as little as possible.

As far as this relates to discrimination it is hard to know. Discrimination will always exists because we can‘t control thinking. The races are different look at blacks in the NFL and whites in Hockey. Look further to how few Asians we see. We vote differently and think differently. I use to want to be a standup comic the industry is dominated by blacks (and I don’t care what anyone says my black friends are funnier as a group then white friends) you could also point out that Asians do better on IQ tests certain races are better than others in SAT and ACT testing. Kenyans make great distance runners Nigerians are better sprinters, US whites have fewer children then US Hispanics. The list could go on so also could the exceptions. I apologize when it happens unfairly and if you fell I do it I will try to correct it. I really strive for equality in my decision making. Now I am driving to the Northwest for Thanksgiving please forgive me if I try to quit commenting (on this subject) but my in-laws think I don’t like them as it is and the fact is I really do love them. So I will try to push myself from the computer and get some good running in. Hopefully ya’ll don’t say something so inflammatory I feel compelled to write back.

“Call me a rebel call me what you will, say I’m old fashion say I’m over the hill, today’s …”

With all the cool quotes I just didn’t want to be left out. Peace.

From Jason McK on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 15:18:35

Shanti: I appreciate your statistic in the Wal-mart case. I really enjoy statistics but take them with a grain of salt. You've stated % of employees that are women and the pay differences between the sexes. However, you have offered no reason for the differences except gender bias. Is it possible that there are other influences for the individual differences in pay grade and advancement? For example, I suspect that one is more likely to advance the longer they are there. However antiquated it may be, many families still look to the husband for incomes - is it possible that of the 67% women making $1100 less per year that their average time with the company has been less, so they have received less raises? Which also influenced promotion - surely someone who has worked for 5 consecutive years will be seen as less risky to promote than someone who has only a 3 year history. Regardless of what people want to have happen, if a couple decided to have a baby, the women will be giving birth and probably take some time off after that (maybe even before.) If one of my children needs to come home from school, my wife goes to get them. I realize this is an on going circle, but she goes to get them because she doesn't want to affect my income since I make more, which makes it possible for me to keep making more.

I'm not denying that gender bias exists, I'm just saying that physical anatomy isn't the only reason for the gender bias, some of it has to do with life choices made by people with different physical anatomies.

From Shanti on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 17:36:35

This data was compiled for a class action lawsuit against walmart for gender bias:

http://www.walmartclass.com/staticdata/reports/r2.pdf

From Matt on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 18:08:55

who won the lawsuit?

From Jason McK on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 19:01:12

This information is impressive. So, like Matt said, who won? It's clear from the report that there is a gender bias. Point well made.

I'm still left a question - the report says:

70. "The results for hourly employees show that women are still paid at

least 4.5% less than similarly situated men in each year."

While this seems significant, if the average female works 40 hours and the average male works 41.2 (the last 1.2 being overtime) then the 4.5% is exactly what is expected. Or if the average female works 45 hours and the average male works 46.425, then 4.5% increase in pay is expected. I'm not saying this is where it comes from, I'm just questioning why the report doesn't mention hours worked - only that at least 45 weeks were worked by year end.

I have a couple other reserves about the report and missing pieces of information, but I have to conclude that there is a gender bias at Wal-mart. So, is it Wal-mart - the company - who is at fault, or is it the individuals hiring from within the company that are at fault? I also wonder if the male managers are more likely to promote males, do the female managers also promote males? That would be interesting to see if even women have a gender bias towards men...

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 19:03:58

Looks like it is not yet done:

http://www.walmartclass.com/walmartclass_casedevelopments.html

The data is just raw data. It does show that men get paid more at Walmart but does not explain why. Some legitimate possibilities: Walmart tries hard to push you down when negotiating pay, and women are intimidated more easily; for entry level jobs - when offered too little men say no because they can work construction or some other no-skill job that requires heavy lifting, women do not have that option and have to say yes; the store needs to have men around for heavy lifting and how much they lift a day does not count towards their performance score.

Even if the discrimination is purely prejudice based - work place is not welfare, a job is not an entitlement. Private businesses should be able hire whoever they want and pay them whatever they want. They should even be able to offer gender biased discounts to customers if they feel so inclined - if the owner likes women, they get 20% off. If he likes men, 20% off for men. That is part of his freedom of expression. If you do not like it, set up a competing business and express yourself through it as you like.

Messing with the free market via lawsuits only makes it worse for everybody else driving the prices up. I wish I could file a class action lawsuit against whoever is involved in the Walmart lawsuit for increasing my Walmart bill.

From fly on the wall on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 19:41:05

I just love the fact that right now at the bottom of my screen is a Google add for the movie, MILK. How ironic! Or was it placed there specifically?

Since I'm still on the same topic (by myself?)... To those who seem to have argued that sexual preference is a matter of choice, something that can be changed at will, influenced by society, etc.; perhaps sexual preference or at least the degree of it, is more of a continuum than black and white. And, consider this if you will:

BYU "Professor claims scientific evidence of homosexuality"

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/49488

Not that it should matter in the eyes of the law. If you can flip on your gay switch, choose to marry, and can live happily ever after; it is not the governments business. "Civil magistrate should... never control conscience... never suppress the freedom of the soul." I'm assuming y'all know this quote (also given in a previous post) is from D&C 134:4.

Respectfully, Fly on the Wall

From Mire on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 20:21:54

Thank you Fly on the Wall!

From Matt on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 23:09:56

Fly,

I saw the movie add as well and thought it was extremely ironic and humors at the same time.

Regarding the quote I thought I had seen it before but had to do a search. That being said and I was meaning to make a post I still don't have a problem with the quote and my previous stance.

From Matt on Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 23:23:08

Sasha,

I agree with a lot of what your saying and maybe it is just the attornies son in me but no lawsuits?

The free market has shown the need to have regulation on some level. As an employee of the mortgage industry and a real estate investor I can state for positive that we wouldn't have half our current financial problems if government had done its job think of all the huge banks that have gone under where was the antitrust lawsuits then. Is keep prices low the only value we are interested in?

also if they are prejudcial in hiring and of thing you give adequate ammunition as to why they most likely are not does the public have a right to know simply so they can decide to support the business and cause or not. I could accept price discounts on some cause or mission statement or membership but to do so underhandedly seems a little unfair.

From Shanti on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 13:29:45

I debated whether or not I should open a blog account due to the strong differences I hold regarding social and political issues many bloggers have demonstrated, but dialog is good and often constructive.

As I will log my running, I will strongly encourage anyone interested in discussing political and social issues to post comments on my blog. I will post topics and links that are of interest to me and welcome ALL opinions whether in support or disagreement. I am not easily offended and am always interested in discussing almost any topic.

By the way, I am not done commenting on the issue of same gender marriage, and am confounded by views supported by religions whose past is blighted with obviously deviant behavior.

From fly on the wall on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 14:52:36

"whose past is blighted with obviously deviant behavior." Is there a group whose past is not blighted?

From Shanti on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 15:18:21

There is probably no group whose past is not blighted with deviant behavior, but don't deny the history. Having a history of multiple wives and then declaring the sanctity of marriage between "one man and one woman," is to deny the past you came from.

From kungfublonde on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 15:26:18

I have to disagree on that particular point. That's kind of like saying, "you can't come from a past of having enslaved people then say that racism is bad." There's a reason that those behaviors are in the PAST.

From Jason mck on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 16:47:38

yeah. That's like saying you are for adultery if any of your ancestors was born out of wedlock. You are not responsible for others action and do not have to embrace it just because it is linked to your past.

From Shanti on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 16:55:07

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. We don't deny our past, we acknowledge there was slavery., we own that. Own your history, don't deny the fact the LDS religion was founded by a polygamist. Polygamy now as it was then, is deemed sexual deviance. It is ironic you deem two people of the same gender getting married sexual deviants and the founder of a major faith practiced what some would call sexually deviant behavior.

I am fighting for gay rights in this country, in this decade, just as my parents fought for interracial marriage rights in the 1960's.

From Shanti on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 17:06:26

I feel we have completely gotten off topic on this. The only point I am trying to make is this is an issue of individual rights. Marriage is a contract between the State and the two consenting adults regardless of gender, any religious meaning should be between the couple and their church. I will offer up this solution, require all couples to get a civil union and allow marriage to be religious institution with no effect on civil law.

From Bonnie on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 17:24:52

Shanti,

I agree with you wholeheartedly on your last point. I see the whole argument to be less of an issue of civil rights and more of an issue of the separation of church and state. Churches can feel free to make whatever restrictions (or not) they choose on the definition of "marriage". However, the "contract" (that is technically what is being asked for in California) is between those individuals and the State and this should have no religious symbolism attached to it.

My two cents.

From montelepsy on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 17:35:13

How will would you define civil union?

From Shanti on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 17:42:39

Thank you Bonnie, that is exactly what I have been trying to state this whole time.

Montelepsy, a civil union is all the rights afforded married couples by the State currently. ie: property rights, probate, taxes etc...

All marriages would require a civil union, not all civil unions would require a marriage. Marriage is just the religious component.

From Bonnie on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 17:46:48

Legal contract between two individuals. It actually seems more like what California is fighting for when they say "marriage", since many of the couples that are currently on the verge to losing their status were married at the courthouse (civil ceremony). It is a semantic argument - however it is more than that because without the piece of paper from the state no matter where you get married (temple, church, synagogue)and what religious ceremony you attend you are not married.

From montelepsy on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 17:51:28

What happened to your blog, Shanti? Did you delete it right after setting it up?

I should have been more specific with my question. Who would be allowed in a civic union? Anyone who is of legal age and not related? Then the straight two male professional runners could game the system. How would we prevent that from happening or do we keep that door open?

From fly on the wall on Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 23:02:49

"Then the straight two male professional runners could game the system. How would we prevent that from happening or do we keep that door open?"

Isn't that door currently open to two runners if they happen to be a gay male and a lesbian female? I believe a similar thing happens with marriages to keep an alien resident in the country legally. In such cases the citizen gets paid for the service but never consummates the marriage. But I digress.

From jeffmc on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 01:44:34

correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it true that civil unions are already legal for gay couples in California, and that they provide them the same rights and privileges that any couple married in the traditional sense can receive? If this is true, then this is not a civil rights issue at all. As far as the two straight runners are concerned, I believe that Sasha already looked into the civil union law in California and it prohibits the practice.

From kungfublonde on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 02:32:28

It is a civil rights issue. Yes, civil unions are legal for gay couples. Marriage was also legal for gay couples until recently when prop 8 changed that.

"Seperate but equal" was deemed a civil rights violation years ago. Having something different but almost as good is still discriminatory. If you can't discriminate on age, race, gender or sexual orientation for other issues, then the same should apply to marriage.

Plain and simple, it is discriminatory and a civil right violation to say that you can't have the same rights as everyone else just because you are different in some way.

I agree that is is a matter of separation of church and state. Your church doesn't have to marry gay couples. But the churches that do should be allowed to. Not all churches are opposed to gay marriage. Why is it right for some churches to decide what is legal for all Americans?

From Matt on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 16:06:38

Rachel,

I read your comment before I went running this morning and I couldn’t help but think about it all morning. So thanks for helping me break up the boredom. First I totally agree with the Brown vs. Board of Education decision. I studied this one in law class in college. We (the US governments and many school districts) segregated and bused kids to different schools. We took a person in a natural environment and because of race sent them to a place out of locality and claimed separate but equal. It was all a farce and completely wrong.

For good or bad, the government still does this on many different levels based off of gender discrimination, age discrimination, social economic discrimination and discrimination based on ability. You can see example of this access to colleges, draft rights, tax structures, military access, retirement benefits, death rights, affirmative action, Medicare, rights to hold political office, right to vote, to drink, to live in certain communities.

But to cry Separate but Equal for homosexual rights just isn’t true. In fact what it does is reverse the Equality and creates a state of “Special and Different”. Everyone under the law has equal access to the instution of marriage. Any man or woman on the planet has the same opportunity and rights to wed. But what you’re arguing is the standard arrangement is not good enough for some and that group wants Different rights for a Special arrangement. That is not only not equality is inequality.

This is so fundamental in many of the arguments that special interest groups make. It kills me when the homosexual community says do you really think we choose to do be this way and yet they want everyone to choose to have full inclusion for the homosexual community. If they really think it is such an unconventional relationship that they have chosen why should everyone else be forced to choose inclusion and a special and different set of rules. Why would they hope to adopt and raise children in something they already argue is not a preferred set of circumstances? Special and Different rules are not Equality.

From jeffmc on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 17:10:27

kungfublonde

I don't think you really answered my question. I was simply asking if it was true that civil unions provided the same rights that marriage provides. If that is true then I do not believe that any discrimination exists.

If rights are being taken away, what rights have been taken? Also, in what way is marriage a right? As far as I know, the constitution guarantees us the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In what ways might prop 8 deny these rights, or in what ways does it uphold these rights?

I am asking these questions not to argue, but because I am interested in what you and others think, although you can probably assume my stance on the issue.

From kungfublonde on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 17:12:59

Gay people don't have the right to marry the person they choose. That isn't the same as the right you and I have.

What specifically is special or different about gay marriage?

Allowing gay people to marry (or continue being married, as the case may be) doesn't force anything on anyone. You still get to live the exact same life you've always been free to live. It's simply a matter or extending those very same rights to include everyone.

From kungfublonde on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 17:24:32

The right that isn't granted is the recognition that comes with the institution of marriage. And the respect. I didn't marry Mike for medical insurance. To say they have access to everything marriage provides insults marriage. Is it really simply a system arranged for access to benefit? Marriage is a commitment of love that is recognized worldwide. Civil unions are recognized as a consolation prize awarded to gay people.

How is denying a group of people the right to marry not discriminatory?

Gay marriage was legal. Prop 8 took it away.

I don't mind the discussion. I have raised several points throughout this conversation that no one has touched.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 13:14:35

Well said, kungfublonde. I was thinking the same thing, gay marriage was legal, the vote was to change the definition of marriage to take the right away from gay couples. If the law in Utah was allowed to stand prior to amendment three, gay marriage would be legal here too, but marriage was redefined to exclude a group of people.

From fly on the wall on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 13:19:33

"The constitution guarantees us the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness." My marriage of 11 years, which was not performed in or sanctioned by any church or religious institution, is part of my pursuit of happiness. My marriage does not infringe upon anyone else rights to life liberty or the pursuit of happiness (I think my mother-in-law would even agree with that). My marriage is recognized by the state of Utah. If the majority of our population voted to make my marriage a "civil union" that was different from other marriages, I'd be fighting mad. If they voted to make all marriages, "civil unions" and make "church marriages" a religious institution with no legal status, so be it. (Did that make any sense?)

If religious belief and dogma are used to determine what marriage is legally, I think there are regions of this country that would not recognize "Mormon" marriages. And, I'd be fighting mad about that.

Respectfully, Mr. on the Wall

From Matt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 16:15:36

Gay Marriage was Illegal it was redefined by the judiciary to make it Legal. It was then redefined by the people to make it Illegal. When the people have spoken they have been steadfast. Do you feel we live in a country that is not allowed to change or can only change when it represents your opinion?

As I have stated in previous posts I expect this law to be changed at some point in the future. It may be ten or twenty years but I think it will change. When it does there will be a serious change between the beliefs of most church attenders and the state. The war will then be on to destroy the churches and the morals which they stand for. They government will be able to do this by taking away tax exempt status, defining religious groups as discriminatory. In time they will try to take away the churches freedom of speech to speak against state instuted behavior and classify it ungodly. This will in turn be deemed as a hate crime. Where will the separation from church and state be then? Where will the freedom of speech be then? When my Grand children attend public schools and say they believe that Gay Marriage is wrong and they are expelled for speaking the truth will people say in that day that God worship is evil and vile? Will men call evil good and good evil.

"Who’s on the Lords side? Who? Now is the time to Show."

Gay rights activists have the same rights as anyone to marry as the law reads. They just want special and different rules then everyone else.

From Burt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 16:22:01

Amen to that, brother. You're just what the Lord needs. That's why I speak my beliefs. You see, the Lord needs valiant servants to do his work in the latter days, to follow the teachings of Jesus, and serve his people in a loving way. I will be his servant and keep my covenants valiantly. I'll stand for truth. I'll stand for right. The Lord can depend on me.

From Matt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 16:33:48

Thanks Burt. Amen to that.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 16:41:27

Wow, that is just a whole bunch of stuff I disagree with and see as unrealistic.

No one has ever said any church HAS to perform gay marriage or even support it. But you are saying that because SOME churches are opposed to it, churches who support it aren't allowed to...? My church performs gay marriages, and so do many others here. Or did, until (as Shanti explained perfectly), prop 8 changed the definition of marriage and took that right away.

You have the freedom to make those choices for yourself, but want to refuse that freedom to others.

You have yet to explain how gay marriage is special or different, or how it takes away from anything anyone else has.

it is wildly unrealistic to say any child would be kicked out of school for saying they disagree with homosexuality. In fact, gay-bashing is still the social norm, and saying "that's so gay" is considered a perfectly acceptable insult, even on he playground.

Bonnie and Fly and Shanti recently posted arguments that clearly addressed the points you just brought up. Including the point that marriage is a legal contract. You can have a legal marriage without the church, but you can't have a legal marriage with the church alone. Therefore it is not a religious issue. Period.

As I have stated repeatedly, YOU decide what is right for YOU and raise your children accordingly. And respect others enough to allow them that same freedom.

Would you force someone to attend your churches? I'm sure the answer is no. Then why force your religion into the law? It doesn't belong there.

52% of the people voted for prop 8, to redefine marriage to specifically exclude gay couples. 48% opposed it. And I will argue that a good portion of the "yes" votes were duped into voting for it by misleading and flat out dishonest propaganda that scared people into voting for something they didn't really understand. That aside, let's pretend the full 52% wholeheartedly wanted to make gay marriage unconstitutional. ...52%. That is not a result that represents the people.

Tell me, I ask you again, what is special or different? What will they have that is any different than any other American?

From Burt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 16:53:59

Blondy - Check out this link. (I googled it to find it. It's not a site that frequent.)

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9519.html

From Jason McKe on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 17:19:40

It may be true that no church has had to perform a gay marriage that didn't want to, but as more and more things become "protected classes", churches will lose rights to make decisions. While I'm not saying that any church would be justified in not marrying two people of different races, they can't discriminate based on race - it's against the law. As more people push for gay right, eventually, sexual orientation could become a "protected class" and a church that refuses to perform a ceremony may lose it's right to congregate.

Just because something doesn't immediately affect your rights doesn't make it right.

Quoting Kungfu, "You have yet to explain how gay marriage is special or different" As though it isn't clearly special or different. If it were so obviously the same (as you make it seem) then why have 30 states so far already said "No way, not in my state!"? Again, I'm not saying they are correct, only that it's ridiculous that you act like it's nothing strange, meanwhile going on for days about it. Obviously it is special or different.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 17:25:46

The problem with this argument is that we are trying to refute faith with logic, and that is unreasonable. I don't question your faith or your religion in any way. I have never argued against that line of reasoning. If your faith tells you homosexuality is wrong, I respect that, no matter how much I disagree (backed by my own faith). Our religious beliefs aren't up for debate.

...which means we really aren't going to get anywhere with this discussion.

Once again I will agree to disagree and be done with this discussion in this particular forum (You did too, Burt. What happened? I just can't quit you, gay topic blog!!)

Ok, I'll go check the link now, Burt. Then I'll see you back where I'm most comfortable; in nonsense-land :)

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 17:36:53

Jason, I guess we were posting at the same time because I didn't see yours. Didn't mean to ignore it so I will address it.

People opposing it doesn't validate it as wrong. Historically that hasn't held up well. 98% of the population voted against giving blacks the right to vote when the supreme court extended the right. We'll just have to see if this pans out the same, right? And in this case it isn't even CLOSE to a 98% opposition.

Refusing rights to some people just because it might at some point in the future cause problems doesn't sound very justified. However I do see that being a concern. Instead of working to refuse them their rights, what about working to institute legislation that protects churches? I think we could all agree on that.

And finally, I don't think you last point makes sense, or else you misunderstood my point every time I made it. What would be special or different about a gay marriage from a straight marriage? It has been stated repeatedly that it would be giving special privileges or rights to gay people. I don't see how. Maybe you misunderstand what gay people are asking for? Simply the same right every straight American has- the right to marry the person they want to spend their life with.

Sorry, I'll stop "going on for days" about it now so you won't be forced to read it anymore. :)

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 17:44:09

Actually, our religious beliefs are up for debate, everyday. That's why this is such a heated battle. If this didn't have anything to do with beliefs, no one would have a problem with a gay marriage. But, whether or not people subscribe to a religion with a name, people generally don't believe that gays should have the same rights as non gays, like the right to adopt, for example. Society as a whole can't see that it could possibly do any good. It's the same with people arguing for and against abortion. Some believe it's not just your body, there's another life. Others believe differently. But we all want to say what everyone else can and can't do with children.

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 17:50:30

I don't mind the "going on for days", I quite enjoy the conversation. Living in my sheltered local, often times I don't get the opportunity to debate with intelligent people who think differently. Most people don't really like to debate and a high percentage that do enjoy it have no idea what they're talking about - they just repeat what a commercial on TV said.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 18:30:28

Wow, some pretty interesting opinions!!

Matt, you could not possible agree with Ayn Rand's quotes. The majority clearly just voted away the rights of the minority.

When the churches chose to intervene in civil law they put their tax exempt status at risk.

Most frightening quote of the debate:

"Amen to that, brother. You're just what the Lord needs. That's why I speak my beliefs. You see, the Lord needs valiant servants to do his work in the latter days, to follow the teachings of Jesus, and serve his people in a loving way. I will be his servant and keep my covenants valiantly. I'll stand for truth. I'll stand for right. The Lord can depend on me."

More harm and devastation has come from mankind using this same rationalization. If you are prepared to use religion as the tool for argument, and use quotes out of the Bible, you better be prepared to use all of the Bible. You cannot pick and choose only those passages which support your argument. This whole debate started with Leviticus 8:22, man shall not lay with man..., you seem to support that part of it. But, what about Leviticus 8:13, "

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Would you then support the extermination of gays, because it clearly states death is the penalty.

There are also statements to support the killings and stoning of adulterers, non virgins, and children who disobey their parents. The list goes on and on.

I will have the audacity to question your faith because you have stated you are willing to do the Lord's work, which work and how do you choose which passages you will enforce and which you will not?

You do not need to look too far around the world to see what happens when strict adherence to religious teaching is used as a guide for civil law. Women are being put to death because they were raped, imprisoned for walking without the escort of a man, and whipped for showing their face.

You claim your faith should be used to create law, why? As Mire pointed out, there are 38,000 different views on Christianity alone, all believing they are as right as you are.

Religion and faith have their place and it is not in denying the rights of minorities and creating civil law. I would suspect if you looked hard enough in the Bible you might even find some passages that support protecting minority rights. It seems to me that the LDS church is operating by a double standard. Its own doctrine states that it is unjust for a church to get involved in the civil government.

D&C 134 vs 9, a key piece of mormon scripture - states: "we don not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, and citizens, denied."

I stand by my statement, this is a civil rights matter and a blatant example of discrimination.

Definition:

Discrimination:

"treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit."

From Burt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:01:40

Hmmm...I thought my quote was actually one of the funniest on this thread, not scariest. While I will admit the most bloody wars in history are due to religious differences (holy wars if you will), there is absolutely nothing wrong with me standing for truth. What makes us different is exactly that - truth. If you don't believe in God, then I urge you to exercise a little faith, plant a seed, call upon his name, pray unto Him for enlightenment. Knock and it shall be opened unto you. I promise you that God exists and he is our loving Father in Heaven. If you do believe in God, I urge you to pray for enlightenment about truth; that his son Jesus Christ is our Savior, that the gospel has been restored in these days, and that there is a prophet on the Earth today.

I'm not for certain, but I think the 'putting to death' of homosexuals may have been part of the law of Moses, which law was fulfilled with the atonement of the Savior. Many of the strict Mosaic laws are no longer in practice.

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:03:03

If discrimination is "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit" then denying gays the right to marry would be discriminating, if for the sole fact that they are gay, we don't allow them to marry. However, they aren't being denied the right to marry, since marriage is defined (commonly) as being between and a man and a woman. They are being denied the right to change the definition of marriage for everyone to include "between a man and a man" or "between a woman and a woman".

From fly on the wall on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:14:24

Interracial marriage "was Illegal it was redefined by the judiciary to make it Legal..."

I agree that the current California law will change at some point in the future. Whether this will lead to war against churches and the end of days scenario presented, or will lead to churches changing as society has, only time will tell. There is precedent for such change in churches:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p.110, 1863

"...We have the definite word of the Lord himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- as a sign to all others. He forbade inter-marriage with them under threat of extension of the curse (2 Nephi 5:21)..." "Now what is our policy in regard to intermarriage? As to the Negro, of course, there is only one possible answer. We must not intermarry with the Negro." Apostle Mark E. Petersen, Race Problems - As They Affect The Church, Address delivered at Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954

From Matt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:23:46

Well put Jason and Burt I was about to give the same response but you beat me to it.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:23:54

Burt, if the law of Moses is no longer in practice, then you cannot use Leviticus 8:22 either. Again, picking and choosing which passages are still relevant and which are not does not work.

Jason,

If the definition of marriage really meant just between a man and a woman you would not see constitutional amendments asking for specific language. Gays were being allowed to marry under existing law, the language has been changed to exclude them.

Kungfublonde said it best:

"Maybe you misunderstand what gay people are asking for? Simply the same right every straight American has- the right to marry the person they want to spend their life with."

From Matt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:30:51

Shanti,

I am not sure of your knowledge of Christianity it appears to be rather extensive. I am also not sure why you feel the need to tell people what they can and cannot believe.

The fact remains that Christ suffered through blood atonement so the penalties under the Law of Moses would be fulfilled. The sin still remains but now we need only repent of our sins and promise to commit them no more or else we suffer to crucify Christ anew. Adultery is still wrong, so is disrespecting your parents adultery and stealing. The new law is basically summed up in the new commandments that we love God and love our fellow men. The new law is the hire law because now we are accountable for our actions and our thoughts. Peace.

From Burt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:34:41

No, Shanti. It's still a sin. Sasha made reference to 2 Peter 2:6 previously. Clearly that was written after the law had been fulfilled. It's just the earthly penalty is not as harsh.

From Burt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:39:11

You could make your points all day about how you think we're wrong, and then we could rebuttle with what our actual beliefs are, and it will get us no where because in your mind already we are wrong. So I urge you again; if you want to know the truth of the matter, go to the source - Heavenly Father. If you ask Him with an open heart and a willingness to follow and accept the truth, it will be made known unto you.

Sorry Rachel. I tried to quit. Honestly I did. It's just too addicting. Maybe this will be my last post.

From fly on the wall on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 19:49:03

"If you ask Him with an open heart and a willingness to follow and accept the truth, it will be made known unto you." But it seems different truths are made known to different true believers. Which truth is the true truth?

(I apologize for my blasphemy.)

With respect, Fly

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 20:00:33

I take offense to the statement I am telling people what they can and cant believe. Believe what you want, I have stated that throughout my argument. As a matter of record I would fight vehemently for your right to practice your faith of choice, but do not try to use only scripture you find relevant to support your argument.

I will not debate the semantics of each individual faith, it is not relevant to the argument. What is relevant is: religion should not be used to direct civil law. If you believe gay marriage to be wrong, don't engage in it. According to your faith, those who do engage in gay marriage will have to be accountable for their own actions.

I will restate D&C 134 v9:

"we do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, and citizens, denied."

Practice your faith diligently, just don't make it the law of the land, and deny other's the right to practice as they choose.

From Matt on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 20:05:13

Shanti,

You just did it again.

First you tell me I can't use Lev. and I can. Now you tell me Don't deny other's the right to practice as they choose.

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 20:16:34

I came back to correct a misrepresentation in my last post and there is all this good stuff!! I don't have time to compose a response at the moment but I probably will come back and try because now I really WANT to! Just when I think I'm tired of it, it gets all interesting again!!

Ok, Jason I think some people would still and currently still fight against gay rights simply because homosexuality is different. There are people who can't get past the fact that gay sex grosses them out. No other consideration for the human beings involved. Plenty of athiests are offended by homosexuality. It isn't just an issue of what the bible says or who Jesus loves (I prayed Burt, and the answer I got was "everybody!")

The error I came to correct was when I said 98% of the population voted against allowing blacks to vote. The correction is that 98% of the VOTING population, white men, were opposed to the change. (not to start a whole thing about "the man," just correcting a misrepresentation in my earlier statement)

I skimmed too fast. I gotta come back to this when I have time to sink my teeth into it again :)

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 20:17:07

You misunderstand what I am saying. Philosophically you are basing the argument on a book, the Bible, but are only taking the parts out that support what you are saying. I could take almost any book, pull out sentences that support my argument, even if the theme of the book in its entirety, is diametrically opposed to my actual argument.

From Shanti on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 20:22:33

Kungfungblonde reminded me of this quote, I found it appropriate regarding her last post:

My own belief is that there is hardly anyone whose sexual life, if it were broadcast, would not fill the world at large with surprise and horror. ~W. Somerset Maugham

From kungfublonde on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 22:03:51

Shanti, that goes back to my earlier post about how it isn't any of anyone's business. I find it incredibly strange how free some people feel to dictate the intimate lives of others. That is not public jurisdiction.

From Jason McK on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 22:21:31

In response to "If the definition of marriage really meant just between a man and a woman you would not see constitutional amendments asking for specific language. Gays were being allowed to marry under existing law, the language has been changed to exclude them."

The only reason there is any amendment to any constitution is to further explain right of the people or clarify original intents. Apparently, the founding fathers didn't even think marriage needed to be mentioned at all. I suspect that if they had mentioned it, it would have said nothing regarding gay marriage. If we now interpreted "the right to bear arms" to include firing ammunition into crowds of people and enough people thought it was OK, there would be a change to explain what "the right to bear arms" means, but that doesn't mean we had the right all along.

From Lucia on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 22:58:35

Wow, I'm glad I didn't see this discussion earlier or I wouldn't have gotten any work done this week... in any case it would've been unnecessary, Mike and Rachel are doing a much better job expressing my views on the issue than I could have!

Thank you for allowing such interesting discussions in your blog, Sasha!

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 00:30:36

Jason, that makes no sense. The first amendment of the constitution implies the right to and From religion. The very point being made here is that religion should not be used to create civil legislation. There have been many laws created in history to further clarify other unjust laws. They were eventually overturned by the US Supreme Court because they took rights away from people. Plessy v Ferguson stated segregation was legal, separate but equal. This was devastating legislation and the very same arguments are still being used to create a separate class. Plessy lasted sixty years before being overturned by Brown v Board of Education. You would not support a separate but equal law for anyone of color or gender, but somehow it is ok for gays. This issue will probably come before the US Supreme court and there is a very strong likelyhood the State amendments will be overturned in violation of the US constitution.

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 04:31:19

I think everything I wanted to say was already said very well.

Gay marriage wasn't actually prohibited by the constitution. Some people are working to change that so that it will be. They will have small successes, but not for long. Prop 8 is unconstitutional, and I don't see it being upheld. A year? Maybe 2?

No war is on the horizon. Gay people don't want to bring down your church, or any church. And isolated examples of crimes by angry activists no more represent the homosexual population than the crimes committed by angry people claiming religious affiliation represent their churches. Do the Christian kids who tortured and killed a boy for being gay represent Christianity?

If a group of people are denied a fundamental right because it might cause some churches some problems at some point in the future... that is unconscionable. Instead of putting so much time and energy into fighting against people who actually have nothing to do with you or your religion, why not channel that same energy into pushing for protective legislation for churches? If you truly feel the church is facing a "war" brought on by social changes, work positively to secure what you feel is at risk. You don't have to hold anybody down to do it.

Also, how are churches doing in Canada?

I think that your church and every church are safe and sound. People will always need faith, and church should be a sanctuary.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 08:41:01

Shanti - I fully agree with Maugham's quote. Unfortunately, I am in a minority in the US and western culture. Other people, particularly men, appear to differ. If not in a frequently expressed public opinion, then at least in their behavior. Such broadcasts are extremely popular and collect billions of dollars of revenue.

I find it interesting that there is not one country in recent history that has come to accepting homosexuality without accepting and embracing pornography first. Can you think of an exception? I cannot.

And if so, I find it hard, nearly impossible, to believe that the relationship is merely coincidental.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 09:52:20

If sexual preference becomes recognized as a protected class, I'll willingly submit to the idea that they deserve all rights and privileges afforded others under the constitution. And, while I don't need anything to be a protected class in order to love and appreciate all people, I don't currently hold the belief that having a sexual preference other than standard is something that needs to be afforded privileges. I believe that the ability to procreate (have sex, not just make a baby) is a God-given right, but the privilege to do so was meant for a man and a women (who are married) to use. I realize that these are my religious beliefs, but...

If man has any rights at all, they are either God-given, or given by men. The Founding fathers recognized God (what they called him is hardly relevant, though they seem to have called him "God".) If the rights are God-given, then the government of any place should be set up to protect those rights, as ours seems to do and anyone who attempts to take these away will have to answer for it (at least later.) If the rights are granted by men, then men can also take them away.

To attempt to grant any right that is not God-given, if God exists, is wrong. If God does not exist, and all rights are bestowed by men, then we really have no rights at all, but are subject to the whims of the people around us. People who attempt to do things that aren't normal (at this time, gay-marriage) are subject to peoples beliefs (religion) or practices (customs) of the majority. Anyone can argue that it's unconstitutional, but the constitution attempts to form our lives and protect others, it does not form our thoughts. And to say that anyone who doesn't think according to the constitution is wrong may seem accurate to constitutional thinkers, but to religious thinkers, the constitution is an attempt to portray religious rights, so anyone who doesn't think religiously is missing something also. You could say that this country's governing document is the constitution, but you could also say that the worlds governing body is God.

So right or wrong, sadly, right now, gay people are at the mercy of the religious or the majority.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 09:59:26

I am not sure the stats support your argument regarding pornography and acceptance of homosexual behavior. The stats I could find seem to show no correlation between acceptance of homosexual behavior and heavy use of pornography. Usuage of porn is actually highest in countries which do not permit gay marriage, or even embrace homosexual behavior. I understand stats can be intrpreted in different ways, but I thought this site did a pretty good job.

http://www.editmymovies.com/pornography_statistics.html

I also find it interesting that corporations like Marriott are padding their bottom lines to the tune of millions of dollars by selling pornography. I am not just singling out Marriott, but he is a well known member of the LDS church, and is profiting from the sale of porn. It is apparently ok to profit from porn as long as you do not view it. I would like to see some ethics! If, personally you do not agree with pornograohy, your company should reflect those values.

I think porn is a terrible problem nd creates a wide array of social problems and not nearly enough is being done to limit access to consenting adults.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:02:30

Just saw your post Jason, finally something we agree on!!!!!

"So right or wrong, sadly, right now, gay people are at the mercy of the religious or the majority."

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:05:44

Shanti: I have to agree with your statement about reflecting your personal values in your company. People think that business is just business - it's about money. But if your beliefs are only your beliefs when you're not doing business, then they're not beliefs, they're just conveniences.

I'm curious though, how do you answer this one: If Marriott should practice what he preaches in business, should he also do the same when it comes to voting?

From Mat on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:00:50

I think I will play devils advocate today.

Why limit porn to consenting adults whats good for one is good for all.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:13:42

I know two sets of Brothers the first set I knew growing up they were three years apart at about the age of 24 he decided heterosexuality was wrong for him his little brother who I was friends with and attended church with had decided on this about six years prior. The decided on relations together and from what their sister has informed me of they are still together. The other set of brothers are men I have meet in adulthood. They are 42 years old and almost laughable born on April 1st. They started experimenting in adolescence. But have obviously been together for years. Anytime I bring these stories up in a group of 4 or 5 more people I hear other stories that are similar plights. I understand that both sets of brothers are excited for legal unions. Supposedly my friends from childhood are planning on moving to California.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:14:11

Jason,

A person's vote should reflect what most closely represents their values, morally, fiscally, and politically. Not all candidates will represent everything you want.

From Lucia on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:53:04

Freedom of sexual preference should be accepted just like freedom of religion is. Growing up in a Catholic Argentine family, homosexuality was not accepted in my environment. I did not like or trust gay people at all in Buenos Aires, they were weird, not normal, "yucky". In 1999 I moved to San Francisco. Attending City College, I met a couple of very nice Argentine girls. Later I learned they were a lesbian couple and they were living in the U.S. illegaly: they were very well educated and could do well in Argentina if they wanted to, but they prefered to live in a city where they could be gay, even though they couldn't have good jobs or make good money and had to hide from the law than having to pretend to be heterosexual in Argentina while being better off economically. That was the turning point for me. People like me, in my country, were making these good people's lives so unbearable that they prefered to leave and live and work illegally someplace else. It's not fair.

To me it's a matter of discrimination. I'm not sure if you'll see the similarity, but when I was moving to Utah to go to school, my mom was really worried. She said "That's where all the Mormons live. You sure you want to go there? THEY'RE DANGEROUS". !!! My mom, an educated Catholic woman, was telling me that people of the Mormon religion were "dangerous" - she was discriminating against people for their religion without really knowing what she was talking about, obviously. I think she thought they'd brainwash me or something, honestly. After living in Utah for almost 3 years, I came to profoundly respect the LDS religion for their family values, commitment, sense of community, and many other things, and my mom learned a lesson through me too. Argentina is now more accepting of non-catholics and homosexuals, and a better place because of that, I believe.

In my humble opinion, adults of all religions and sexual orientations should have the same rights - marriage included...

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:58:56

Jason, and Shanti too, a person's vote should reflect their values- absolutely.

A person's right to choose who to marry should never be on a ballot.

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:04:08

Lucia-

Well said, and welcome!

So my decision to take a break from this conversation lasted... almost 10 minutes?? :)

From Bonnie on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:04:38

Matt - I am actually quite offended by your recent post. Yes, the scenario you present is offensive, however, to me, so is the point you are trying to make. I have tried to stay out of the religious discussion set forth, because I don't believe it is germane to the argument (though I respect your right to feel that it is). However, I do feel compelled to tell a counter "story".

I don't know of any brothers (or sisters) that decided to have a sexual or long term relationship with each other and are now for legal unions or rights to marry. But I did know a man whose first few sexual "relations" were with his sister. I have heard (and read about in the paper) about many stories of fathers who not only have sex with their daughters for long periods of time, but they also father children by them. Ergo, hetersexuals are obviously morally deviant by nature (note I am being sarcastic). I am pretty sure none of these people care one iota about legal unions. Using one set of deviate behaviors to characterize an entire population of people is simply not fair.

Christians do not have a monopoly on morality, nor do one set (sect) have the monopoly over another. In my heart I know that these messages are NOT the ones that were set forth by God or Jesus.

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:17:10

Are you proposing that making gay marriage legal will mean incest is also legal? There is no logic in that.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:49:53

According to the 10th Amendment, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." I suspect that this means that until a new amendment is proposed (which has to be ratified by 75% of the states legislatures) the supreme court won't be ruling on what the states have decided, since the constitution allows the states to decide these things.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:56:09

Shanti:

For some things, asking the older generation what they remember beats searching the web. Anybody 50 or older who has watched TV will tell you that the amount of sex on TV has dramatically increased in the US in the last 30 years.

As far as US porn viewing stats - until recently Quantcast did not censor their top sites listing. And when they did not, I saw a good number of sites with 4 million uniques a month with a very obvious name, audience primarily male. For a comparison, Google gets about 130 million uniques a month.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 13:13:46

Speaking of prominent and not so prominent LDS business people - I wish more of them stood up for what they believe in their business practices. No excuse to profit from the sales of what you consider immoral. The fact that one member of the Church fails to follow his beliefs, regardless how famous or rich he might be, does not make the beliefs wrong, nor does it establish the policy of the Church on what is wrong and what is right.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 13:22:46

Some of the comments have overstepped the boundaries of family safe, so I removed them.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 14:05:35

The two sets of brothers I tell of are very real. I know of no sisters.

Are you stating that you are against this behavior and if so what gives you the moral highground.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 15:03:14

Jason,

A US constitutional amendment will not be necessary. The 10th amendment gives the right to the states to make their own law so long as it does not violate the US constitution. Prop 8, or other state amendments will be challenged in court, and the US Supreme court will rule on the legality of the amendment. It is likely you will see this issue before the US Supreme court in the next couple years.

Sasha,

I will not disagree with the fact that there is more sex on television, whether I am talking to people or pulling stats online, there is no disputing this. I would argue that there is more openness toward homosexuality, that does not mean there are actually more gay people. Most of what I can find indicate that 2-7% of the human race in gay. Those numbers seem to be consistent for very long periods of time. There was a point, not too long ago when it was not possible to talk openly about homosexuality, but times have changed and it has become acceptable.

In regards to business, I am not singling out Marriott, it was just an easy example. I believe people should conduct business in a manner that reflects their personal values, and we all know that is certainly not the case.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 15:09:48

Shanti:

So then do you agree with the essence of my point - no country has arrived at accepting homosexuality without accepting sexually explicit media first?

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 16:57:18

The question I pose is: when did homosexuality become an unacceptable behavior?

Homosexuality has been around a lot longer than sexually explicit mass media. In ancient Rome, homosexuality was generally accepted, with Nero, a Roman emperor, marrying a man. Greek history is filled with tolerated homosexual behavior as well as China and some Native American cultures.

I would offer this, the increase in sexually explicit media is a direct result of consumer demand. If consumers were not watching and more importantly purchasing the goods from advertisers, you would not see sexually explicit material on television. Corporations would not keep dumping money into television shows where nobody was watching, it would not generate an increase in sales.

Likewise, if you, the consumer, stopped purchasing goods from companies that advertise on shows containing material you object to, you would see a change. I would challenge you to stop purchasing any products from any company that supports sexually explicit material regardless of the type of media. Powerade is a subsidiary of Coca Cola, and they are a huge supporter of sexually explicit media. That also includes retailers that support such programming, and yes Walmart supports these programs!! It means even if you do not watch or read this media you would not purchase their products or services.

This is Capitalism, if you want to see a change, cut off the flow of money.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 17:23:25

Shanti:

For the purpose of simplicity, let's lay Rome and Greece aside and focus on the last 100 years of history. Can you think of any modern-day country that has seriously considered the possibility of gay marriage where nudity on TV is as unacceptable as it was in the US in the 70s?

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 18:19:09

I cannot answer the question with any certainty, I am not familiar with television history in other nations. What is the relevance?

I refer you back to my previous argument, sexually explicit media is market driven, you don't want to see it, launch a campaign against those companies sponsoring it.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 18:26:10

Shanti - you don't really want to know when homosexuality became an unaccepted behavior. You don't like religion to dictate anything, nor the majority. But in any case, since there was a majority, or a religion, homosexuality has generally been an unaccepted behavior. The fact that Nero married a man hardly proves it was generally accepted. If it were generally accepted anytime in the history of the United States, why is it suddenly an issue?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 18:40:50

Shanti:

From your comment on television and reliance on the Internet search to learn its history, sounds like you belong to a younger generation. I would say you were born after 1980, correct?

Also, you do not talk much to the older folks about what life was like when they were younger, correct?

The relevance of the above is that to understand my argument you would need to have a feel for what it was like 30-40 years ago that is deeper than a few internet searches can produce.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 18:49:56

Jason, your world history is weak at best. Religion has been around long before Christianity, just because it did not include Christ does not mean there was no religion. Ancient Greeks and Romans both had belief in higher powers, and in both societies homosexuality was an accepted part of their societies. There are even accounts of accepted homosexual behavior in ancient Egypt (they had religion too.) Some Native American cultures also accepted homosexual behavior and had strong religious societies.

You are just saying since Christianity has been around it has not been accepted, Christianity is not and has not been the only religion on earth.

You are right on one point, I do not believe any one religion should dictate civil rights or civil law. I will restate my original argument, the majority has no right to take away the rights of the minority.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 18:59:24

Shanti,

So you agree then the brothers are in.

From kungfublonde on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 19:04:18

Shanti brought us back to the topic with that last statement. I don't see why it keeps going off into tangent arguments. I mean, it's just not the way I argue a point- I like to stick with one thing and see it through to a logical conclusion. I know people approach things differently, though.

I think it has come full circle (a couple of times by now), as every argument against gay marriage has been addressed. And there is no conclusion in sight :)

From Matt on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 20:02:28

Rachel, I am not sure why you call it a tangent when it hits on the very heart of the matter you repeated yourself many times that you want everyone to have the opportunity to marry who they love. No matter what sex they are. If the brothers love each other are they any different and in your own words how is that any different then Mike and I. Shanti has said repeatedly that majority has no right to take away the rights of the minority. If this is truly a civil right movement on what grounds would you deny the two sets of brothers. To deny them there rights would be unconstitutional. You see philosophically it is difficult to state your reasoning but then not follow it through on the exact same logic on the exact same argument. Maybe you misunderstand what gay brothers are asking for? Simply the same right every straight American has- the right to marry the person they want to spend their life with. There is nothing special or different about what they are asking for they are the same. You don't have to like homosexuality or think it's ok for your life. I just don't think anyone has the moral or ethical right to tell another person what they can do with their heart or in their bedroom with another consenting adult. It's weird to me that anyone thinks that's their business. Really, why do you care? Seriously, It is totally none of your business. “Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).”

I hope no one feels like I am going for the juggler because I am using your own words. It is just I follow your logic through and this is one of the many destinations I arrive out. Remember I am the one that is friends with these brothers I believe there behavior is wrong just like I believe all sin is wrong but I don’t stone them. I love them. I have helped them and served them. I love the sinner and hate the sin.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 20:46:16

Shanti - I can't argue with that, my world history is weak, at best. Nice job on Wiki though, I should have checked there before generalizing about history. But while we're at it, if history is a reason to do, or not do something, then what can be said for cannibalism and polygamy. They've each happened in the past, but nobody is arguing that we should continue those practices... Somewhere up above (a hundred posts or so ago) someone mentioned a prophet who had deviant sexual practices. If your current argument justifies homosexuality and it's acceptance, then it justifies his practice also.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 21:20:15

And if the majority has no right to take away the rights of the minority, then what's the foundation for not allowing polygamy?

Coincidentally (or not) - Polygamy is against the constitution of UTAH. The Utah Constitution mentions marriage twice - once regarding that polygamy shall never be legal, and once regarding the fact that a woman's property before marriage is still her property after marriage and isn't subject to her husband's "obligations."

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 21:21:54

Matt,

Incest is a seperate issue and your story should offend anyone reading it, I am actually surprised it was not the post pulled. Sex within immediate family goes beyond all acceptable lines. I do not feel you have gone for the juggler, you have a weak argument that is not supported by facts, and you will not address the basics of civil rights and stated doctrine by your own institution that prohibits intervention of church in civil policy. Comparing gay marriage to incest is detestable by any standards.

Jason,

You make poor assumptions about my sources, I will use wiki to support some arguments, but only if I can find supporting evidence from credible sources. I have based my arguments on facts that are well supported by documentation including statements from the LDS church (those were obtained through the LDS church.) I have not argued homosexuality to be sexually deviant behavior, I have argued for civil rights.

From Shanti on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 21:23:51

Jason,

Arguments were already made to discredit polygamy, I will not address them again.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 21:42:12

Shanti - You're right, you haven't argued homosexuality to be a deviant behavior but the only argument to discredit polygamy was that it was considered then and now to be deviant. If civil rights are justification for homosexuality practices, then how does that not apply to polygamy? I'm not arguing for polygamy to be justified or accepted, I just don't see how one can be a right and not the other.

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 22:06:20

Shanti:

I was not offended by Matt's post at all. At least not any more than by the fact that this has become a hot political subject. The example is not pretty, but this whole subject is not pretty.

Do you get his point? The traditional argument against incest is that it runs the risk of health problems for posterity conceived this way. But the brothers do not conceive, so the traditional argument does not work. And without it there is no other argument I am aware of.

On the scale of perverseness in my book the brothers do not score any higher that if they were not related.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 22:15:58

wow shanti that sounds mighty pious. I glad you decided that incest homesexuailty between adults is wrong now I don't have any thinking to do for myself on the matter. anything other points I need to worrie about not touching. oh yea can you let me know inadvance when your logic is going to be hypocritical and when its not. I know youh have found the need to explain to me how to live my beliefs I am just wonder when you apply yous.

From Jason McK on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 22:34:37

Shanti - I must admit, you lost me on the offensiveness... I thought that the premise of your argument was that it didn't matter what anyone else thought, they don't get to decide what others do. In the case of brothers and brother, or brothers and sisters, if the only question is the health of the offspring, well brothers can't reproduce, and a lot of people use birth control.

However ill-conceived Matt's argument appears to be to you, it's every bit as valid as yours regarding civil rights. If incest is out because you're sickened by it, then other civil rights are out of the question also.

From montelepsy on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 00:15:23

How is incest a point here?

Incest violates someone else's rights. Someone ends up emotionally scarred.

People who engage in incest aren't normal. Every culture has incest taboos. There are biological, emotional and psychological consequences.

Homosexuality between consenting adults does not end up in emotional scarring.

Incestuous parents will always hurt their children. Homosexual parents will not hurt them anymore than hetrosexual parents.

If incest were on the ballot, an overwhelming vote against it would be cast, not 52 v 48, like prop 8.

The brothers in your example are not a representation of homosexuality. Homosexuals aren't incestuous, though some can be, just as hetrosexuals can be.

From Jason McK on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 00:21:37

Incest has more than one meaning. Most think of adults with children, but it is better defined as

incest ( ) n. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.

Incest with minorities isn't the topic here. In Matt's example, it is two closely related people that would make marriage illegal, or forbidden by custom. These relationships are choices, just like homosexual relationships, entered into by choice just the same.

From montelepsy on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 01:14:36

When you say, "If incest is out because you're sickened by it, then other civil rights are out of the question also."

You are saying that incest is a civil right. I tried to argue that it isn't.

I'm against two gay grown consenting brothers marrying. I'm also against constenting adult brothers and sisters marrying. Ditto with mothers or fathers marrying their own grown children.

From Jason McK on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 13:16:21

Mont - you're doing a good job of driving Matt's point home. If people who are for allowing gays to marry because a majority has no right to deny a minority their pursuit of happiness, then why do the same people think that they can determine what a different minority can do. Just because you find incest repulsive is no reason for you to limit the rights of two consenting adults by denying them the 'right' to profess their love for one another in a civil ceremony called marriage.

From Mire on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 13:42:30

Jason, you defeated your own argument by defining incest:

incest ( ) n. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.

The law forbids two people closely related to be married. You might want o actually try thinking before posting.

From Cheryl on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 13:55:01

Mire--The law right now forbids two people of the same sex from being married. That is besides the point. I thought the point here was to defend gay marriages. I think those against gay marriages are saying if you allow them, then what is to keep you from allowing two brothers to marry, five people from marrying each other or any group of people from marrying any other group. If you start opening it to one group, how can you keep it from any group who wants to marry? What's the standard? Right now the standard is that two people who can potentially reproduce and keep the species going can marry--the state has an interest in protecting that relationship. What's the standard if we start allowing gay marriage? And let's keep the snide comments out, it doesn't help the discussion.

From Jason McK on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 14:05:53

Mire - nice try. This discussion is about laws and rights. As long as we are attempting to define laws that give rights, then we are attempting to modify the laws. That means that if the law were to change, what we currently consider incest would no longer be incest - even though it would still offend people.

From montelepsy on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 15:54:48

Jason,

Incest is not a civil right because it has victims, so you cannot compare it to homosexuality. Incest is a crime. Homosexuality is not. That's my point.

Allowing gay marriage won't lead to incestuous marriage, just like interracial marriage did not, because they are not related to incest.

I'm sure opponents of interracial marriage had the same arguments, but after 40 years the world hasn't ended nor has incest run rampant.

The issue remains, why should we deny the rights of homosexuals to marry.

Cheryl,

If procreation is the standard for marriage, should married couples who cannot produce children be separated? Should we say no to people past the age of fertility from exchanging vows?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 18:08:35

Montelepsy - in the brothers' example, who would be the victims?

From Cheryl on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 20:02:56

Montelepsy--the state defines marriage as between a man and a woman because of the potential of offspring--in every single case there won't be offspring, but the state isn't going to look into every single case, that would get ridiculous. What is the state's interest in protecting homosexual marriage? How does homosexual marriage benefit the species? And remember, any argument you make for homosexual marriage, any other group (polygamists particularly) could make the same argument, so how do we keep from opening the floodgates once gay marriage is legalized? Will somebody please answer that question: once gay marriage is legalized, what is to keep every other form of relationship from being legalized and defined as "marriage?"

From Jason McK on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:17:40

Montelepsy,

I gave the definition of incest to point out that it is the law and custom that show that most people think it is wrong. I agree that it is wrong and in many cases has a victim. Another point in giving the definition was to point out that when someone uses the word, they don't necessarily mean an adult with a minor, but relatives, meaning no victim. I have no intention of proving that homosexuality is related, by cause or effect, to incest. But if two consenting gay adults want to be married, and those for gay marriage say that being gay shouldn't disqualify them to the rights, then two consenting adults should be able to be married, straight, gay, bi, old, middle-aged, male, female, brother, sister, mother, father... None of these matter. But incest is repulsive to you, so you say "no way." Sounds hypocritical, doesn't it?

From Montelepsy on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 08:46:32

Sasha,

I don't see a victim in that case, unless you take into account the issues they have to get them to that point. Let's appeal to your logic unit. Is the case of sibling-sibling marriage numerically significant to contribute to this issue? It's too far-reaching in my book.

Cheryl,

Why should marriage be about furthering the humuan species?

If that's the concern, letting gays marry would not stunt that, because there are plenty of non-married people having children. If gays weren't married, they wouldn't be producing children together anyway. So I don't see that as a strong argument to deny our neighbors same-sex marriages.

Contributing to society is another matter. Rather than just producing children, gay couples can adopt and raise them. Psychological studies have shown it's love and parental involvement not parental gender that contributes to a stable childhood.

Fortune 500 companies realize the benefit of recognizing same sex partnerships, in terms of attracting and retaining talent. Happy employees are good employees. The same can be said for citizens.

As far as polygamy, bestiality and incest, we can hypothesize until we're blue in the face. Why don't we make it easy and look at at a test case. What has happened to countries that do allow gays to marry. The Netherlands (2001) and Belgium (2002), for example. They don't have a problem with the above. It's a slippery slope argument.

Letting women and blacks vote did not open the floodgates to letting animals vote.

Jason,

What is hypocritical about supporting a gay couple and not supporting a incestuous couple?

In your case, just because you support hetrosexual marriage does not mean you are a hypocrite for not supporting hetrosexual incestuous marriage between a father and daughter.

I'm not for murderers, or molesters getting married, but they are still allowed to. Let's team up and go after them instead.

Bottom line:

Your vote for gay marriage doesn't mean you have to participate in one. It means someone else who has found their soulmate does.

Let God be the judge and turn folks into pillars of salt when the time comes. In the meantime, love thy neighbor. Even if your neighbor's gay.

From montelepsy on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 08:53:11

Please find it in your hearts to forgive the typos and lack of appropriate punctuation.

From Jason McK on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 11:14:28

Mont,

What is hypocritical about supporting gay marriage is that if your basis for allowing it includes the following reasons:

It doesn't affect anyone else.

The majority can't limit the rights of the minority.

Marriage is a civil right (pursuit of happiness.)

Then why do you think that right doesn't apply to everyone, equally. If you don't allow the right to apply to all people for the same reasons, that's hypocritical.

In my case, I don't think that marriage is a 'right' given by the constitution. Each state has set up their own laws to govern it. The laws have been dictated by the majority since the founding of the USA. True, it was set up to protect the right of all, but decency has always been determined by the majority. Our culture values and protects children. If it didn't, then we wouldn't have laws to protect them. Our culture has typically frowned upon: homosexuality, polygomy, prostitution, bestiality, pornography, adultery/fornications, etc. Since the majority didn't/doesn't find these things OK, there are laws against them. Times have changed, and there are many laws on the books that aren't enforced, but in many states, adultery is still illegal, as is homosexuality. But the public, in protecting their offspring does apply standards, morals, rules of conduct, and decency to law.

From Cheryl on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:02:55

I'm all for loving my neighbor, no matter who or what he or she is. This isn't about that. This issue is: what relationships should the government promote and foster? Taking out all moral and religious issues, if you're setting up a society, what is the best relationship for the betterment of society? I think everyone would agree that the ideal situation is a man and woman in a relationship. Why? Because that is the only relationship where the human race can continue on. Even if only 50% of heterosexual couples reproduce, that's still much better than 0% of gay couples that can reproduce. Gay relationships might be ok and almost on par with heterosexual relationships, but they are not "ideal," and because they can't keep the human race going, they are not on par and equal to heterosexual relationships. Does anyone disagree with that?

Also, in our ideal society, where is it better for a child to be raised? All things being equal, you have a man and woman who love each other and are committed to each other and are both good people, and then you have two men or two women who love each other and are committed to each other and are good people, in which of those is it better for a child to be raised? I think even the most liberal, open-minded person has to agree that all things being equal, it is better for a child to be raised by both a man and a woman. It might be ok and even great to be raised by two men or two women, but it is better (in the ideal situation) for that child to be raised by a man and woman. Therefore, the government is looking to protect the most ideal situation for a society, which has to be heterosexual marriage. Gays can be protected in other ways, but to demand that they be given the exact same protection and promotion in a society as heterosexual relationships seems wrong to me because the two institutions are not equal. One can keep the species going, one is better for children, therefore it has to be given more protection. This seems only common sense to me. Am I missing something?

If you disagree with me on the issue of where is it better for children to be raised, I want to know if anyone on this blog, if you had an unwanted pregnancy and had a female baby, would you be just as willing to adopt it out to a two men to raise it as you would a man and a woman to raise it, if all things are equal--the two parties love each other just as much and they are all good, moral people. Can anyone honestly say it would be just as healthy and good for that female baby to be raised by two men as it would to be raised by a man and a woman? It might be almost just as good to be raised by two men, but it isn't as good. That is why in my opinion heterosexual relationships must be given more protection than gay relationships and should be the only relationship where the word "marriage" is attached.

From habeebe on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 17:06:09

You do not need to fear same gender relationships. We share the same love, commitment and companionship that heterosexual relationships share. We have a lot more in common than you think.

You need not be afraid.. Fear leads to hate and violence.

You also need not fear to allow women into the priesthood. Open your hearts and your minds and love truly love equally.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 17:31:22

Our church is a church of God. We do not decide who we give the priesthood to, God does. If men started to decide such issues, we would not have a church. Period.

Thus, we do not take back-seat driver advice on what we should or should not do. God speaks through his prophet. We hear the message. We pray about it and find out for ourselves if the prophet indeed speaks for God. Then we sustain him and follow his guidance. This is not something open to debate.

The above is a fundamental principle of our church. It is very foreign to somebody raised in the Western culture of democratic government, but it is a true principle, as we are committed to it as a church, and as individuals.

From Cheryl on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 18:08:00

Habeebe--this is the same tired argument we hear a lot--if we disagree with you, it is because of fear or hate. Fear and hate have nothing to do with it. If you're going to respond, how about explaining how gay marriages are just as good for society as heterosexual marriages. Not almost as good, but equally beneficial. I would like to hear those arguments.

From Matt on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 18:51:13

Montelepsy,

If people aren't going to forgive for typos and punctuation I was screwed a long time ago. I wish we could all be as eloquent as Sasha and Lucia. I think my last post was so riddled with typos and left out words that it makes hardly any sense at all. By the way Shanti I should probably apologize for my tone in the text. I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive me if I offended you. Writing on my Palm in a room full of people didn't help my debate experience in high school and college was always in spoken form.

From Krishnimarti on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 20:50:18

Cheryl,

Heterosexual marriages end in divorce over 50% of the time, tell me how that benefits society. Children are almost always the ones who suffer in failed marriages leading to a number of social disorders. I agree with Habeebee, fear is what creates hate and intolerance. Giving equal access, for two loving consenting non-related couples, to the same state and federal protections of the institute of marriage harms no one.

Who are you to say gay marriage are not"ideal," gay couples can adopt or use invitro to produce children. There is absolutely no evidence to support heterosexual couples are better for children, children need a loving secure environment to thrive. I can tell you honestly I would give my baby to a gay couple long before I would give her to many heterosexual couples, I have no fear of how she would be raised. Your argument is based on feeling and emotion, you have presented nothing to support denying civil rights. You cannot make the argument gay couples make worse parents, you have no evidence to support that statement. The government has more reasons to support marriage than just the continuation of species. There are 1409 federal rights provided by the institution of marriage, most of which have nothing to do with procreation.

From kungfublonde on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 21:35:54

Wow, I haven't been back since my last post. It's all over the place again. The topic I addressed was gay marriage. All the other topics have nothing to do with it.

I see it was brought back around to the slippery slope argument again. If you allow gay marriage, here is a laundry list of all kinds of horrible things that can happen. Therefore, their right is denied. That is one of the worst reasons to deny a civil right. In America, we deal with people's rights on a case by case basis. Gay marriage will be legal. If another group tries to use that as an "in" for the right to marry as well, then so be it. We'll deal with that for exactly what it is: a different issue. Lumping it all together isn't realistic and it's not how our legal system works.

Matt, how did you "go for the jugular" exactly? Cut and pasting my sound arguments and then applying them to a different issue... I'm not sure what your point was. Those were still good points made in support of gay marriage. You didn't refute a single one. If you would like to have another discussion on another topic, email me again.

If you love the sinner but not the sin, exactly how do you love the sinner? With oppression? I agree, you don't have to like or participate in the sin (I support gay rights but do not participate in homosexuality). But is it your job to interfere in their lives?

I have never argued with any of your faith-based reasons or attacked your religion. But as I stated, that leaves us at an impasse. You seem determined to prove us wrong. All you can do is prove us different.

Cheryl, it is my belief that marriage between two people who love each other and want to commit their lives to each other offers the same to society whether it is heterosexual or homosexual. Everyone does not agree that heterosexual marriage is best. I am a heterosexual, married woman with children, and not the most liberal person. But I disagree with all the points you said you are sure everyone would agree with. I know a lot of gay and straight people. There are straight couples I won't even let babysit for me. I know two gay couples specifically who would and do make better parents than many straight people I know. One of those couples has two adopted children, and they have a solid, wholesome family that sets the bar high for other families.

It's what's in your heart that makes the person, Not the gender of the person you are intimate with.

Churches marry elderly people, and obviously that's not for procreation. What for then? Is it enough for them to marry for love, for companionship, for friendship, for happiness? Or do you only need those things if you are straight?

From kungfublonde on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 21:48:13

Mike, I just read your last post. I liked it. And not just because I am totally in love with you :)

Also (everyone else), I want to clarify that I am not trying to come across with an angry or attacking tone. That can be misinterpreted in text, and I know I am blunt. I hope you understand that is not the tone I intend to convey.

From Krishnimarti on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 22:55:17

I would ask you this, what is more destructive to the family unit, divorce or gay marriage?

Divorce is considered to be one of the most destructive elements to the family unit, and the divorce rate is right around 50%. Think about this, in the state of Utah alone, there were almost 9000 divorces last year, 55,000 in New York. Unfortunately California's divorce numbers are not available, but you could argue that it probably somewhere between 70 and 100 thousand.

Gay marriage would at most make up 2% of all marriages (data complied from other nations who allow gay marriage). That means of the 22,000 marriages performed in Utah last year, 440 would be gay. Contrast that with 9000 divorces, what has the most potential for damage to the family. In California, there have only been 18,000 gay marriages performed, contrast that with nearly 100,000 divorces.

If want to argue that marriage is the foundation of society, I would think far greater resources would be devoted to educating couples on how to have a successful long term relationship. Marriage licenses would only be granted after both parties fully understand the magnitude of their commitment and the consequences of failure.

I stand by my earlier convictions, marriage is a right between two consenting unrelated adults, but education on the consequences of divorce seems to a better use of resources. Just food for thought!

From Cheryl on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 00:56:45

Kungfublonde--Just answer this question: if you had a female baby and needed to adopt it out for whatever reason, and if there were a heterosexual couple that was strong, moral, firmly committed, and a gay male couple who was strong, moral, firmly committed, who would you want most to adopt that child? Is there any reputable child development expert anywhere that would say the gay couple would be just as good as the heterosexual couple? I highly doubt that. Show me one who says both are equal and just as good for the health and development of the child. No matter how loving and good the gay couple is, most child development experts I've read say for optimal development, a child needs both a mother and father. Do you believe that two fathers or two mothers are just as good? If so, please tell me why. I would really be curious to know your reasoning. And please don't use the "I know bad heterosexual people and great gay people" argument. The way I've set it up, both couples are equal in character. (And by the way, I know gay couples who I wouldn't want anywhere near my children. Despite that, in my opinion that is not a good argument for or against gay marriage. You can always find good and bad people in whatever group you look at.)

From Matt on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 01:02:01

First do Krishinmarti or Habeebe run? It seems like we have more people blog on this topic who have no running blog then just about any topic I have ever seen before. Not that there is anything wrong with that I am just curious.

I am starting to feel over and over that the topic is at in impasse. One side says it is constitutional and another side says it is not. One group claims it is a civil right and the other side says it is not. One Group talks about failed marriages and the other group talks about the failed institution of homosexuality. One group points out that there are weird heterosexuals and the other side feels homosexuality is equally abhorrent. In my example of the brothers Sasha asked who the victims were and I am still curious because if it is the individual or the society it would seem that the victims are the same for homosexuality that really was the point and yes the brothers are real. The fact is I respect them as much as I respect all my homosexual friends and my adulterous friends. I find all those acts and a few more equally abhorrent and although I might continue to associate with them because I love them I do not endorse any of the conduct. I can also say they do not garner the same respect that many of my other friends do but I don’t hate them, I love them. I might hate the act but I love all people.

Also the recent question that Cheryl posed is a very good one and if all things being equal if you choose a homosexual couple over a heterosexual couple to raise your child or any child that only goes to show that you have a homosexual agenda. That is not to say that a homosexual couple might not do a better job then a particular heterosexual couple they key point is all other factors being equal. To answer the question what is better for the family unit divorce or homosexual marriage the answer is quite simple, NEITHER.

From Cheryl on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 01:07:00

Krishnimarti--I would ask you the same question: show me one reputable child development expert who says two fathers or two mothers is just as good as a mother and father for raising a child. I don't care how loving and great the gay couple is, just by the nature of the beast, they cannot give everything a heterosexual couple can give. They can't give the child the experience of being brought up by both a male and female. And I think that is very important in the development of a child. Or maybe the creator got it wrong, maybe we don't need two sexes, since according to some there is no difference.

From kungfublonde on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 03:19:32

Cheryl, you speak in broad, over-sweeping generals. First you bet there was no person like me who would disagree with you. But there is me. And there are millions like me. Now it's, "find one single reputable child development expert..." Cheryl, there are countless child development experts who would disagree with you. I know one personally; she taught child development at a university here and recently moved to Ohio to teach it and do counseling there. She's not the only one.

You say not to use the example of knowing specific good people, when it directly and specifically addresses your question. Your claim is that having one male and one female parent in the home is an ideal environment. No matter the man or the woman, it is just inherently better. Simply having a male and female parent present does NOT make it a wholesome or healthy or nurturing environment.

I have two daughters. If something were to happen to me and Mike, I would trust Barry and Paul to raise my girls to be the amazing, strong women they are on the path to becoming. I have every confidence they would continue to excel academically and athletically, and would be raised to be good Christians with loving hearts. Just like Mike and I are raising them.

But yet again we digress. The issue is gay marriage. Not gay parenting. They are not synonymous. Gay couples are already raising children together. You will not stop gay parenting by refusing to allow those families to have married parents.

From Jason McK on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 09:51:35

I want to know why those debating for gay marriage have now thrown "unrelated" into the mix.

In the beginning it was "Marriage should be between two people that love each other" and those for gay marriage have done fairly well at showing that there is nothing reasonable to stop gay marriage except peoples beliefs, which shouldn't matter. If that is the case, then why are you now throwing in the word 'unrelated'? If beliefs shouldn't matter, then why do they when they're your beliefs? And if your beliefs matter when it comes to related individuals matter, why don't my beliefs matter when it comes to gay marriage?

As far as the health of the child argument goes...I know of know law that prohibits any two people from procreating, regardless of the disease or genetic defect that they may pass to their child. So, other than your beliefs, what is the reasoning behind denying related people from being married?

Kunkfu said "If you allow gay marriage, here is a laundry list of all kinds of horrible things that can happen. Therefore, their right is denied. That is one of the worst reasons to deny a civil right. In America, we deal with people's rights on a case by case basis. Gay marriage will be legal. If another group tries to use that as an "in" for the right to marry as well, then so be it. We'll deal with that for exactly what it is: a different issue. Lumping it all together isn't realistic and it's not how our legal system works."

This is a sort of truth and it case by case that the foundation is built for the next debate. That is exactly the point of the argument. In reality, rights are granted in sweeping wholes. All religions, races, ages, etc are protected, not just some religions, races... If sexual orientation becomes a protected class, then how are you going to define orientation? Is it only male/female? Or will it be unrelated male/female? Or older than 18 male/female?

I don't think that anyone falls in love with their cousin because it's their cousin, anymore than anyone else falls in love with a man or woman just because they are a man or woman. They fall in love with whoever they fall in love with, just like homosexuals and heterosexuals. What is the basis for denying them the right to marry?

From kungfublonde on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 14:07:58

Jason, I have said over and over on this blog that your beliefs DO matter and I won't argue with them. I have never attacked or questioned faith-based reasoning. It's the logic I've debated.

There are issues that have to do with gay marriage, and issues that don't. Incest isn't one of them. There is no logic flow or reasoning that takes you from marriage to incest. The reason that line or discussion is completely pointless is because it only serves as a distraction here and because it isn't relevant in the real world right now. It isn't on my ballot. I don't know of millions of incestuous couples who are rallying for their rights. In fact I have never in my life known or heard of anyone who practices incest. It's a waste of time (to me) to play the "what if" game for things that are so far fetched.

Back to the slippery slope once again, things don't spiral wildly out of control when a civil right is granted. There is not mass confusion and mayhem.

it sounds like we agree on a lot, overall, Jason. if our only difference is from a religious standpoint, then let's just respectfully shake hands and walk away. :)

From Cheryl on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 14:47:05

Kungfu: First of all, I never said any man and woman raising a child is better than any gay couple. I would much rather have a decent gay couple raise my children than Charles Manson and one of his women. My question was directly if you had a choice, all things being equal, the love is the same, the character is the same, would you choose a heterosexual couple or a gay couple to raise your newborn that you needed to put up for adoption. You seem unwilling to answer that question directly. Maybe your unwillingness to answer directly tells me the answer.

In any event, I've stated my piece. If we can't even agree that it is better for children to be raised by a man and a woman than two men or two women, everything else being equal, than we are so far apart that it seems useless to continue the discussion. We need to agree to disagree. I am all for civil rights and everyone being treated decently. I don't agree with anyone being treated poorly or with fear or hate or whatever you want to call it. I just don't agree that a gay relationship and heterosexual relationship are absolutely the same and need to be promoted and encouraged equally in our society. Fortunately, I feel most people still agree with that. If you want to open marriage up to gays based on their love for each other, then it seems to me you must open it up to anyone who claims to love any other person or persons. What makes gays any more special than polygamists? I guess in the future anything could be called a marriage as long as love is involved. If that's the society you want, so be it. I'm done and now it's back to the one thing that will always bring happiness and love, running!!

From kungfublonde on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 18:32:04

Cheryl, I'm cracking up. Not answer it directly? I named the gay men I would let raise my own two daughters! That's as direct as it gets. ALL things being equal, (maybe that's the part I was clear enough about), I don't feel a hetero couple has an edge, no.

You brought up things that were addressed much earlier in the blog, so I stick with all my same responses that still apply.

And again, I agreed to disagree quite a while ago. I like the part where we agree best.

From Cheryl on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 20:15:09

Kungfublonde: I just have to make sure I understand. If something were to happen to you and your husband, and your choice to raise your girls was Barry and Paul or a hypothetical heterosexual couple we'll call Joe and Mary, who you like just as much as Barry and Paul, who you think are just as good as the men, who would you choose to raise your girls? Would you flip a coin? How would you decide? Do your girls benefit from both a male and female perspective in your marriage, or are two male perspectives just as good? Does your "femaleness" add anything to your girls' lives? Do you feel they even need a mother? Are two men just as good? In other words, can you be replaced by a man and things would be just as good for your girls? Just wondering.

If your answers to all this is still that the men would be just as good as the other couple, please explain to me why whoever created life made two different sexes who are different in some significant ways if it doesn't really matter who raises kids. Is there a reason life can only be created by a male and female, not two males or two females, or is all of that irrelevant? Kids are just as healthy with whatever combination of sexes raises them. I wonder then why the creator didn't just make us all unisex if that is the case. I guess it's just one of those grand mysteries of the universe.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 21:06:34

I feel the need to address the issue as to why 50% of marriages end in divorce. 40 years ago it was not the case. What happened since?

In once sentence - we used to have a culture centered around responsibilities, and now the focus has shifted to rights. As this mentality is projected into marriage, people put their own right to satisfaction above their duty to their children and society.

Some food for thought - can anybody find a culture that accepts same-gender marriage that has stable traditional marriages going in parallel?

Regarding the argument that nothing bad has yet happened in Netherlands. Just be patient, it will. The Russians rejected God in 1917. Some reaped the fruit around 1937. But they were still strong enough to win the war. They won the space race. Their Generation X did not fully form until around 1970. And then it all collapsed, and they are still collecting the pieces. Trouble takes time to ripen up.

From Burt on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 21:38:40

Rachel - Barry and Paul are real people??? Hahahahahaha. Now I'm cracking up. I was wondering why you didn't use the typical hypothetical gay couple of Adam and Steve.

And Sasha - I couldn't agree more. History is doomed to repeat itself. Contrary to popular belief that some of the stories of the old testament are myth; Sodom and Gomorrah were very real. It may be a while, but we'll see the consequences. (And lucky for us we'll have this wonderful record to look back on so someone can say, "See? I told you so.")

From Krishnimarti on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 21:57:42

Actually divorce rates are at there lowest level since 1970. The higher the education of women, the lower the divorce rate. Countries that allow gay marriage have a lower divorce rate than the the US, have not seen an increase in divorce, and are seeing higher rates of heterosexual marriages.

From Krishnimarti on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 22:03:47

Just one more note, Russia, who you claim has not found God, has a lower rate of divorce than the US.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 22:26:44

Krishnimarti - if a Google search brings up a page that says the sky is pink, take a look at the sky before you believe it, or at least ask somebody who can tell colors. I am from Russia, I lived there for the first 19 years of my life, I still talk to people who are there. I am fluent in the language, and unlike some "experts" I can actually read the Russian media and get a feel of the situation. I have an idea of what I am talking about. As unstable as American marriages are, Russian are much worse.

I will ask somebody who runs in the master's division and is old enough to remember to address the subject of divorce trends in the US in the last 40 years.

From Krishnimarti on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 22:45:14

The stats are available in many different places, you can go to various government sites, commercial sites, or even academia sites.

I am just addressing the issues you bring up with logical, fact, and data supported information. I am completely open to new data and facts.

You make poor assumptions about the people you write to, you have no demographic data on who I am or what demographics I have access to. You say you base your arguments of facts, yet you need to talk to people to get the "feel" for how things were, I am just basing my arguments on the facts and data that support it, not feeling.

From Matt on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 02:19:46

Krishnimarti,

I found a little different data. US divorce rates are lower then Russia by a nominal amount. That be said divorce rates are coming down almost everywhere. When people quote the 50% divorce rate it simply isn't trueanymore. I am sure education is part of the reason but I think the biggest reason is because abortion is legal. Sounds crazy coming from a pro lifer but lots of time good results come from terrible things and as Sasha points out sometimes it takes generations to realize the results.

From Cheryl on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 09:41:52

Yes, it doesn't seem to me that people have totally thought thru the reprecussions of pushing for legalization of gay marriage. It sounds good to say you are tolerant and for the civil rights of others. But where do those supposed "rights" lead? Once gay marriage is legalized and is totally equal with heterosexual marriages, what is next? Of course, then gay couples are going to want to adopt. What are we going to say, no, they can't adopt? That wouldn't be full equality with straight marriages, so of course they are going to be allowed to adopt. I can see a situation where an adoption agency will be required, for every infant they adopt out to a heterosexual couple, they must adopt one to a gay couple. So a large number of infants will be placed in homes where they either don't have a mother or a father. Does that sound in the best interest of children, depriving them of mothers or fathers? Can you imagine placing a female child in a home with two males, depriving her of having a mother? Or depriving a male of having a father? Or depriving either sex of having both a mother and a father. I don't know about you, but I agree with the line in Peter Pan, "Every child needs a mother," and by extension, every child needs a father also. It doesn't always happen and children are raised in all sorts of environments, but the best, in my opinion, is for all children to have a mother and father. I can see the legalization of gay marriage threatening that situation.

And despite what others say, I agree with Sasha, Burt and Matt, down the road, if gay marriages are legalized, just wait to see what other relationships based on "love" get legalized. Think thru the total reprecussions and I don't think the legalization of gay marriages is such a great thing. Civil unions will give gays all the civil rights they need but will prevent some of the negative effects. Push for that instead.

From Sasha Pachev on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:30:09

To end the "US marriage stability due to education improvement" sky-is-pink nonsense:

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/divorce.html

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/marriage.html

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/femhh.html

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/fertunm.html

Compared to 1970 the marriage rate is drastically down, divorce rate is drastically up, out-of-wedlock births are drastically up, and single-parent households are drastically up.

Have not bothered to look up the stats on Russia, but a word of caution on those - you have to be very careful to make sure they represent what is really going on. E.g during the Soviet era couples would frequently split up without getting a legal divorce, so they never would should up in the stats.

From kungfublonde on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:00:52

Um, Cheryl? Gay people (couples and single) already adopt and have been doing so for years. Working in an adoption agency and having an adoptions social worker in my immediate family keeps me pretty well informed on that subject.

Also, you refuse to hear my points. I have addressed everything you have said. Of course I would choose the real people I know very well and respect over a hypothetical couple. Where did the coin toss come in? How is that random? I would choose them because they are good people who I think would do an exceptional job.

The creator made two people to create people. Where it goes from there is not set in stone. You present you scenario like there is a loving, wholesome married couple waiting for every available child. There isn't. Not even close. And not every child is adopted at birth. There are literally millions of children orphaned in foster care. You'd rather keep them there than let a loving home take them in just because the parents would be gay? Very often that is the only option, and there are so many agencies that turn gay adoptive parents away and let those children be shuffled from foster home to foster home instead. THIS is not hypothetical.

Burt, yeah, they're real. The fiesta isn't though :)

Sasha, that data is almost 10 years old. And what country is it representing? I'm not arguing your point, I think your claims are reasonable about which rates are up and down. Sheer number of the population growth alone would lend itself to that trend (but would obviously not be the sole cause). I just think there has to be better data to support it.

From Cheryl on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 16:47:18

Kungfublonde--You just won't answer my questions directly, but that's ok, whatever. I see your beautiful girls on your website and from what you say they are very accomplished and wonderful. I'm sure your mothering had a lot to do with that. I don't think if it really came down to it, if you had the choice of giving an infant girl child to a heterosexual couple or a gay male couple, all things being equal (remember that part), I don't believe you would deprive that child of a mother.

It's infant adoptions I would object to for gay couples if there's a willing and able heterosexual couple who would take them in, because I believe all children, if possible, should be raised by a mother and father. Difficult to adopt children is a different story.

From Mire on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 22:59:30

Cheryl-what are you talking about Kungfublonde has answered your questions directly. And how can you be sure her "mothering" is responsible for her wonderful children. I would say from her posts, it's her incredible bubbly personality! I don't know her, but it seems her beautiful heart and soul burst through every word of every post! She is an amazingly bright, thoughtful, extremely intelligent person, with an incredible zest for life. Her children are amazing because she is a very caring, loving, committed, strong, present parent who obviously loves her children.

Cheryl gender does not matter! Study after study shows, it's strong, committed, loving, caring parents that children need.. It's the personalities of the parents, not the gender.

In fact if we as a society care about kids--real kids, not just rhetorical children used as a weapon in a culture war--then we have to acknowledge same sex couples do have children and those children, as it follows have gay parents Those kids, too, deserve protection and security. It simply makes no sense to, on the one hand say, “We care about children,” and then on the other hand punish some kids for having the “wrong parents,” by denying their families marriage, and it's many benefits.

From Shanti on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 23:05:46

We are rolling off the central issue of gay marriage, civil rights. There is nothing to support gay marriage will increase the rate of divorce or threaten traditional marriage in anyway. The idea that gay marriage creates a separate protected class is just not the case. Gay couple are asking to become members of the protected class you belong to, one they are currently excluded from.

Matt,

The number of abortions performed in this country are actually declining, that would not support a direct correlation in divorce rates. Abortion rates, according to the CDC, have been declining for the last 20 years.

Seems to me this issue is more about money. If gay marriage becomes legal, churches will be forced to perform these unions or face charges of discrimination. Denying the marriage will open churches up to suit, and they will lose. It is no different then a church denying a black couple or interracial couple the right to marriage. How to solve the problem?

Create civil unions for straight and gay couples. Marriage becomes an institution of religious institutions without a tie to civil law. If marriages are no longer tied to civil law, churches can then perform marriages based on their own criteria without violating civil rights.

From Cheryl on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 23:59:56

Mire--We have a fundamental disagreement. You say gender does not matter. I say it does. Why did God make two sexes if gender doesn't matter? He could have made one sex if he didn't think it was important for the offspring to be raised by both a male and female. You know, with God, anything is possible. I think there is a reason He made two sexes. So I think gender fundamentally matters.

Males and females bring different things that are important to a child's development. No matter how loving a man is, he is not a woman, so how can two gay men who are raising a female child totally relate to her issues? They might relate pretty well, but I still say a mother would relate better. And a mother and a father working together would relate the best.

I will agree with you that gay couples can make wonderful, loving parents. But two fathers or two mothers, no matter how loving they are, in my opinion, do not equal having both a loving mother and father in a child's life.

I'd bet that if you were to take a poll of children and ask them which of these environments they would most like to be brought up in: two fathers, two mothers, or a mother and a father--that the mother and father would win by a landslide.

And I support civil unions that will give gay couples and their children all the rights and protections they need. But I can't agree to legalizing gay marriages and saying they are totally equal to heterosexual marriages, because I think that can have some very negative consequences. See my prior posts for my thoughts on that.

Sasha, thank you for letting us "hijack" your blog to discuss these very interesting issues.

From Shanti on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 00:14:09

Cheryl,

Exactly which of the 1409 rights afforded heterosexual couples would you exclude for gay couples?

Keep in mind gay couples can legally adopt children already.

From air darkhorse on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 00:54:41

Good point Cheryl, Maybe you can lay this to rest so we can get back to what this blog was meant for. Then again maybe not.. People like Shanti obviously have nothing better to do than to stir up contention.

From Cheryl on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:06:51

Shanti--Please list the 1409 rights afforded heterosexual couples and I will be able to answer that question.

I believe adoption laws are on a state by state basis. I know some states do not allow it. So to say gay couples can legally adopt children already is not totally accurate. I need to read the adoption laws before I can answer your question. Please tell me in which states it is legal and in which states it is not legal, and then I can address that issue more fully.

From Cheryl on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:19:34

Yeah, Steve, it's going to take me a long time to read all the 1409 rights afforded heterosexual couples, plus all the adoption laws, so I'll be so busy studying I won't be able to post anymore. I'm sure everyone will be glad for that.

By the way, I don't mind discussing this, but I worry it may be wearisome to Sasha and others, so if anybody wants to come to my blog and continue the discussion, feel free.

From Shanti on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:27:53

Marriage rights:

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/og97016.pdf

I found a couple sites with brief descriptions of gay adoption laws, this was simple to read.

http://gaylife.about.com/od/gayparentingadoption/a/gaycoupleadopt.htm

Air Darkhorse

Glad to see you back in the discussion, any thoughts you would like to add on this issue?

By the way, I only take time to "stir up contention" when issues like discrimination and subjugation are used to create law.

From kobyhud on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:34:39

Woohoo! My first post on a controversial issue on this blog. Yes I am a runner and yes I need to be more faithful in my running. Now that is out of the way....

All,

I have read through this entire blog of posts because there are valuable opinions to be heard from both sides on all of the issues brought up. Please realize that everyone has experiences that we can build upon. (A rising tide lifts all boats) The worst part about seeing debates like this is how people attempt to belittle others. The classic example is people calling other people ignorant (uninformed). Please, Please, realize that everyone is the sum total of their experiences and that most of us would come to the same conclusions as someone else given their experiences. NO one has the right to discount another person's feelings or experiences, but each of us can only learn from someone else if we are willing to put ourselves in another's shoes. That is at the very definition of Charity and Christianity.

I only wish that this world were full of only black and white decisions, but each of our lives has tainted our perceptions to some shade of gray, our hope is that collectively we can come to what has been termed "truth". Along the way both sides are likely to claim absolutes that either they don't really believe or can't substantiate. That is just part of debate.

There have been a few too many snide religious comments from the Christian camp. There have also been many snide comments from the other side as well. Everyone cut it out! :)

Also, those of you who are not religious have attacked those people who are religious because of their "blind" faith. I hope you understand that if you ask us to remove our faith from our decision making processes it is like asking us to not use on of our senses to drive. IE. just close your eyes and drive. To those of us who believe in divine guidance you have just asked us to ignore something that we have come to rely upon to help us make decisions. As I mentioned earlier we (through our experiences) have come to very strong conclusions about the existence of divine aid, if others had similar experiences in their lives they would likely believe as well.

Shanti,

"Seems to me this issue is more about money. If gay marriage becomes legal, churches will be forced to perform these unions or face charges of discrimination. Denying the marriage will open churches up to suit, and they will lose. It is no different then a church denying a black couple or interracial couple the right to marriage."

I think what you are hearing is that people are generally afraid of anybody telling them what to do. I think given the past performance of our government in society this fear is justifiable (especially considering the treatment of Mormons over the past few hundred years, they have good reason to suspect our government of trying to pull a fast on them). I think everyone here agrees that we should all be able to respect each other. But given the way that the pendulum of society generally swings too far one way then too far the other way as it tries to find equilibrium, people are just stating their fears of it swinging too far. Hey, I am a little concerned that we have such a huge majority of Republicans in Utah legislature, and I am equally worried that we now have a huge majority of Democrats at the national level. I am not certain exactly how money enters in to this though, please explain what you meant by that in further detail.

I hope this somewhat helps to explain why people are bringing up things like polygamy and incest. I agree they are separate issues. But people are just expressing their fear of that pendulum swinging too far. Some of this fear is justified, some of it is not. It would be naive of all of us to neglect the to consider the ways in which a new law or amendment could be abused as we go about creating it. However, it is very unlikely we will get a law/amendment just right on the first shot either.

At the Adoption/placement issue,

There are an abundance of people looking for less than 1 year old children to adopt. But due to emotional scarring (and other baggage) people are far more leery of adopting older children. In this case there is a shortage of adopters. A great deal of this also goes with the current laws granting far too many rights to irresponsible birth parents well after their children have been placed. My wife was a birth mother case worker for a private company for the last several years and saw a ton of the problems (and successes) with these laws. It's a truly mixed bag. Things are generally just simpler with the babies than with the older children. A scary though true fact is that it costs almost as much as twice the money to adopt a Caucasian baby when compared to an African baby. Similar demonstrations of supply and demand are found in adopting older children as well. There are a lot of reasons why there aren't perfect families for every child in foster care. All that aside I personally would choose a loving stable homosexual couple over a pair of drug addicts for my children any day. Though I can think of quite a few people I would trust my children to first if it came to that.

Kungfublonde,

I think you it was you that mentioned this anyway. I have inappropriately used the phrase "that's gay" or "that is so gay". I am going to make an effort to change that right now. Thank you for pointing this out. I find it amazing how vernacular society can mangle good words or phrases. Each of us should analyze our bad conversation habits and try to correct them.

From kungfublonde on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:36:55

Cheryl, it is impossible to respond to a question more directly than I have to yours. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't answer you.

You ignored all my points that refuted your arguments. The slippery slope argument is weak and not a valid one for denying a civil right.

It is totally accurate to say that gay people already have the right to adopt. I didn't say in every state. You argued that legalizing gay marriage will mean those couples will START to adopt. They already are.

You are now saying that gay people can make loving parents. I am glad to hear you say that. You believe they will be better, all things being equal, than a heterosexual couple. I simply disagree. Does this in some way imply that I think my own children don't need me? What kind of a thing is that to suggest?

The majority of adoptions are "hard to place" children, from ages birth to 17. Your speculations about who children would be raised by in a perfect world are pointless, as hundreds of thousands of those children can tell you. You want to poll them? Ask those children how many would rather be adopted than left in foster care.

Gay parenting still has nothing to do with gay marriage.

And thank you Mire, for your incredibly kind words. :)

From kungfublonde on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:41:01

Kobyhud, I appreciate your post. That was very well put. And yes, it was me who addressed the use of that expression. I'm happy to know that my statement has inspired you to be more mindful of your words. It's something that is important to me, and I do work hard to practice what I preach.

From Matt on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 17:00:51

Shanti,

Thanks for helping me prove my point once again. Of course the numbers of abortions are declining. This is mostly because perspective clients were killed off years ago. Abortion becomes legal nationally around 1973 it was legal in various us cities before that for close to 5 years. It really doesn’t get fully vamped up until about 1977. In 1990 abortion numbers in the US hits an all time high and starts to drop. Why does it drop? The children that would have been born into unwanted pregnancies, shotgun weddings, single parents, broken homes, and of course parents with high probability of divorce were never born at all. The fact that they weren’t born means 15 to 25 years later they aren’t likely having an abortion because they don’t exist.

We can also look at how after abortion was legalized 20 years later politicians are patting themselves on the back saying look at how my policies have curbed back crime, lowered teen pregnancy, and increased high school graduations rates. Now without the unwanted child many girls (of those left remaining) are more likely to go to college, which means more are likely to graduate from college. Education means postponing marriage, postponing marriage means postponing child berth postponing total years of marriage means the years to be able to divorce are more limited and since children aren’t born into broken homes are fewer so is the potential for divorce. So abortion is the cause or if we want to take it back a step as Sasha puts it so correctly yet again. “People put their own right to satisfaction above their duty to their children and society.” In other words selfishness is the cause.

Selfishness lead to fornication, selfishness lead to the abortion, selfishness on at least one person part leads to divorce. Typically, homosexuality was preceded by selfishness as were the pornography, the alcoholism, murder and most other problems that exist in society. So while it might be easy to say that education is making things better and it is the reason more people are educated is because the percentage that are educated would have tended to been educated anyway the other portion has just been killed off as if there were a war going on. The states with lower abortion numbers do tend to have higher divorce rates because they are left with a pool of marriages that are created due the opposition to abortion. California aborts close to 5 times the pregnancies per 1000 women that Utah does. African Americans are 6 times more likely to abort pregnancies than whites. There are many African American ministers that have stated that abortion is practical genocide on the black race as almost 1 abortion occurs to every baby born whereas nationally only 24% of Pregnancy’s end in abortion. Russia is a little bit more interesting study because abortion has been legal for close to 100 years with the exception of the Stalin regime when it was illegal from 1936 to 1954 approx.

So as Sasha points out selfishness and turning from God can take a long time to ripen and rear its head but it does happen maybe my original quote that irked you so much is truer then you realize

“Vice is a monster of so frightful mien As to be hated needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace.”

Over time and without guarding against such behavior it seems that all people reduce themselves to selfishness. Serving others and selfless sacrifice are the best defense against this. Although individual free agency most always be respected and protected institutionalizing selfish behavior needs to be opposed. Lastly, I will restate for the record again I am a prolife advocate and feel that abortion does far more harm to society then it ever does good.

From Cheryl on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 18:24:27

Ok, sparring partners, if Sasha doesn't mind, let's go at it again. And just think, Sasha, no one will ever probably match your number of comments.

I have reviewed the comments of Kungfublonde, Shanti, and Mire. This is where I am:

I acknowledge that same sex couples do have children and that those children deserve protection and security.

I concede that there is not a loving, wholesome married couple waiting for every available child.

I concede that there are millions of children orphaned in child care. I agree that it is better for them to go to a loving gay home than stay in foster care.

I don't know the adoption laws, but I will concede, for the sake of argument, that gay couples can adopt.

I have always agreed that gay couples can make very loving parents.

I concede that if you took a poll, the results would be that children would rather be adopted than left in foster care.

I believe that gay parenting does have something to do with the issues of legalizing gay marriages, but I don't care to debate that anymore.

I do not concede that the slippery slope argument is weak and not valid, but I've said my piece on that and don't know what else to add.

The one issue I would still like to discuss, because I don't feel that anyone has tackled it head on, is the issue of whether it is best for children, all things being equal, to have both a male and female influence in their home. In other words, is it best for a child to have a mother and father, or is having two fathers or two mothers just as good? That is the question I'd like answered.

Kungfu accuses me of being hypothetical, so I will bring it into reality. I believe my husband, by virtue of being a male and for no other reason, brings something into my boys' lives that a female, no matter how loving, how kind, how great, could replace. Mire says gender does not matter, personality does. I don't believe I could replace my husband with a female, no matter how great her personality is. I think my boys' lives would not be as complete without having a male role model in the home. Now if you disagree with that and feel I could raise my boys with another female and their lives would be just as good as if they had a father in the home, please explain why. Why is having two females perspective on life just as good for boys as having a male and female perspective?

Now, again, I understand that there is not always a loving, married couple to take in all children, I have conceded that point. I understand that we don't live in an ideal world, that there are many, many problems out there. I would just like having the question answered as posed without changing it in any way. Am I sounding like a lawyer, or what?

I know this is probably getting tiresome to some, but I just feel nobody has answered that question head on, we always get diverted to other issues.

From Sasha Pachev on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 18:34:33

Matt -

In spite of abortion and delayed marriage, we are still at around 34% rate of children raised by a single parent vs I think around 13% in 1970. I do not know what the stats are on day-care raised children of the remaining 66% that have both parents, but a little bit of common sense tells me the rate is higher now than in 1970.

Does anybody still want to argue that the family structure is not drastically less stable now than it was in 1970?

Regarding Russia - I do not want to hear any Google-discovered stats from "reputable agencies" followed by any conclusions from anybody who cannot explain the meaning of the word расписаться as it related to marriage, give some usage examples, do word-part analysis, and explain what attitude towards marriage it would implant in the minds of a married couple whose first language is Russian.

Why word part analysis? Russians, even little kids, habitually break words down into parts to try to figure out what other words they are related to, and thus establish associations in a way that a foreigner will not capture by just checking a dictionary. It affects they way they think, and results in attitudes, and eventually behaviors consequent to the nature of the associations.

From montelepsy on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 19:01:13

I believe that any couple who could model a committed loving relationship would benefit a child, but I agree with you Cheryl, that there's a difference. And if all things were equal, having a mother and a father is a great benefit, because I believe a mother can relate to a daughter on a level that a father cannot and vice versa.

It's not a reason to oppose gay marriage though.

And thank you for your compliments of our daughters.

From fly on the wall on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 19:39:01

"...the issue of whether it is best for children, all things being equal, to have both a male and female influence in their home..." "...but I just feel nobody has answered that question head on..."

I want to answer yes, head on, but I can't because when I look at my own childhood, I cherish and am thankful for what it was. I was not raised in a nuclear family. My father was not a male influence in my home.

My mother found the strength and courage to divorce my father and raise me as a single mother. This happened when I was 7.

I harbor no ill feelings towards my father. He was in my life but not our home. He did the best he could to be a good father. He succeeded in some regards but in many ways he fell short. Do I in any way wish my parents would have stayed married? Absolutely not! Their divorce was a good thing for everyone involved. (When I hear stats about divorce rates, I wonder how many of those divorces were a good thing.)

Do I wish I was raised in a happy nuclear family home? Might as well ask if I wish I was raised by June and Ward Cleaver or Mr. and Mrs. Clause. It's a moot point, but the answer to all of those questions is NO. I did have positive male role models but they were not in my home. I am a happy, well adjusted adult who contributes to society not 'despite what wasn't' but 'because of what was.'

Perhaps the question should not be, "is it best for children, all things being equal, to have both a male and female influence in their home?" but rather "do all children need to be raised with a mother and father living at home?" To the latter, I believe the answer is no. I would even add that not all children should be raised in a traditional family. Diversity can enrich each of us individually and all of us collectively. That said, I do believe my ideas and ideals are outside the mainstream.

So there you are. The question was side steeped yet again, but what does this theoretical question have to do with gay marriage?

With respect,

A Bastard Child who is now raising kids in a nuclear family.

From montelepsy on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 19:45:16

Well said Fly.

From Matt on Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 20:07:44

Fly,

I think you relish being the wild card in this discussion. As previously stated I was raised until the age of 13 in a nuclear family. I can admit adversity made me strong in ways I don’t know. I believe like you I try to provide for my family even better (and I fail a good amount of the time to because I am human) because of things I missed out on. However, if I could I would keep things June & Ward Clever. After 24 years not a day goes by that I don’t think about my mother. Can’t say the same about my father for the last 17 years and he was a pretty great guy to. All that said diversity does make us strong sometimes we can foster a little but it usually occurs naturally. I can see why if a father was abusive physically, sexually, mentally or emotionally one might be happy for life’s experience that came from the divorce, and your right divorce sometimes is better than the alternative. I love Jews and yet I wonder how the world would be different for better and worse had the holocaust never occurred. I think I better leave Pandora’s Box alone on past events though. I most likely would have never met my wife Suzanne if my mother didn’t die when she did. All that going forward I know I would and you would and Rachel, Sasha, Jason, Cheryl, Steve or anyone who has contributed to this thread would choose to take themselves out of the lives of their children but if I could see the future maybe I would.

Mike Thanks for your honesty.

Sasha, your right on with the single parent raising, I think this would add further fuel to why many delay marriage and divorce rates go down. I think it would also add fuel to the selfishness of what has gotten people into the mess and as you point out now we expect day care and public schools to teach our children morals. I know you and I don’t but when I say we I am referring to society in general.

From fly on the wall on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 11:03:29

Hi Matt, I have not carefully read all of these posts. I've perused them when I've had the time and posted when something has inspired me to do so. Because of this I missed your post about your mother, sorry. I will go back and look for it.

You said that this adversity made you stronger in ways you don't know. To me it is a sad truth that adversity can make one stronger but unfortunately it doesn't always work that way.

But adversity and diversity are not the same. I was trying to address the latter. My father's death was adversity that I feel gave me empathy but not strength. My childhood in a non-nuclear family was a form of diversity that I am thankful for.

Respectfully, Fly on the Wall

From Cheryl on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 14:03:29

Thank you for responses to my last post.

Some of you have asked what my question of parenting has to do with the issue of legalizing gay marriage. Let me try to explain.

Why do people who supported measures such as Proposition 8 in California want marriage defined as between a man and a woman? Why do they resist legalizing gay marriage? The way I see it, there are two main reasons, which are:

1. They feel that, based on their understanding of scripture, homosexuality violates God's laws.

2. They feel that children are best served by being raised by a male and a female, that every child, if possible, should have a mother and a father. They see the legalization of gay marriage as threatening that. They wonder if gays are going to be allowed to adopt children that could go to heterosexual families if gay marriage is on the same legal plain as heterosexual marriages.

There are other issues, of course, but those are the two main obstacles that I think need to be overcome if gay marriage is ever to be supported by the majority of Americans. That's why I think the issue about where it is best to raise children is central to this debate.

Having said that, I hope I have never left the impression that I think gays are any less loving, kind, caring, or anything else as compared to heterosexuals. Anyone who will take in hard to place children or children in foster homes and give them a loving home are my heroes, and I have the utmost respect for them.

Anybody see any way to compromise on this issue so that both sides are somewhat happy? What do you think of civil unions?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 14:20:13

Fly:

An amputated leg is better than dying of cancer. But a whole leg by a long shot is better than either of the above.

A prosthetic leg is better than no leg. But it is a long shot behind having a whole leg instead.

Let us set our sights clearly and unmistakably on having whole legs, both right and left, not one leg, not left and left, or right and right, but two legs of each type united in balance. We need them to run.

From Jason McK on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 18:32:15

It looks like this thread is running out of steam. I thought that I would shed a little light on the light that has been shed for me.

Walmart has a gender bias.

Apparently they are one of the few business to capitalize (in a big way) on the fact that women make less doing the same job.

Gay marriage will be allowed in all states in a few years because marriage is a civil right.

This right won't apply to people who are related by no choice of their own.

Anyone can raise children.

Many who are not able to reproduce can be amazing parents.

Many who are able to reproduce have no business raising children.

Nobody grew up in a perfect world (but that's no reason to perpetuate an imperfect world).

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but most people don't like your religion to influence their lives.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but most people don't like your lack of religion to influence their lives.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but most people don't like yours.

From Bonnie on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 18:33:50

Nicely done Jason -- one of the best posts ever.

From Matt on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 19:11:02

Bravo Jason!

Although, I do have an appointment with my Russian neighbor to talk about the origin of расписаться. She fled with her 2 year old son 14 years ago and she is 39 so I am hoping she can shed some light on this but I have a hunch on what it means.

From fly on the wall on Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 23:49:29

Cheryl, If homosexuals are prohibited from marriage but allowed civil union because they might adopt a child that would otherwise go to more ideal parents, then should old people be prohibited from marriage for the same reason? (Say a couple is in their 60s, there is a decent chance that at least one of them will not live long enough to raise the child to adulthood, thus less desirable....) Is age a protected class? If so do old people adopt children who otherwise might have gone to more ideal parents? (I really don't know how adoptions for sought after babies are awarded.)

Jason, Is it time to stop beating this dead horse?

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 00:01:50

Fly--that's a great question. I really have no idea how to answer it. I don't really understand adoption laws too well, I think they're different in every state.

From fly on the wall on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:27:52

Cheryl, If adoption is the concern, why are these state constitutional amendments about marriage? How is a constitutional marriage ban appropriate rather than a statue on adoption preference?

I think Utah is the only state with laws giving a preference to married couples in adoption. I think some other states even make it illegal to give preference to married couples in adoption(someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Utah excluded, if adoption agencies aren't required or are forbidden to give preference to married couples, then how is gay marriage relevant to adoption?

I don't know, perhaps the churches (and their congregations/members) that backed Prop 8 have a master plan to ban gay marriage and then lobby for laws that give adoption preference to married couples? But is there a reason they wouldn't just lobby for adoption laws that give preference to heterosexual couples? Or is adoption not really the reason to lobbying for Prop 8 (see reason #1 in you post above)?

I have rambled on and my ideas are largely off the cuff. Thus they are likely to be logically flawed. Hmmm... have I just taped a big "kick me" sign on my own back?

Pleading for clemency, Fly

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 14:39:26

Fly--your comments are great and make sense to me. None of us are absolutely sure our ideas make total logical sense. We're just throwing them out to the group to see what responses we get. The responses help crystalize our thinking, I think. Two or more heads or better than one, right?

Anyway, to your question. I am certainly no expert on adoption laws. I do know that gay adoption is illegal in some states right now (at least that's what I heard Barbara Walters say on the View, so if that's wrong, blame her--though I've never known her to be wrong when she states a fact. Opinions maybe, facts no. And please, nobody accuse me of getting most of my ideas from the View.) Anyway, it just seems to me that, if gay marriages are legalized, you can't say that gay marriages are absolutely equal with heterosexual marriages, on the same legal plain, and then pass a law giving adoption preference to heterosexual couples. That would seem discriminatory. Either the two marriages are equal in every way or they are not.

That is why I think civil unions are the way to go. They give gays all the legal protection they have asked for without affecting other situations, like adoption laws or forcing churches to marry them when churches don't agree with those type of marriages.

I think we need to see all the ramifications that the legalization of gay marriages will cause before we enact it into law. In my opinion, it is more than an issue of civil rights. And rights go more than one way, right? How will gay rights affect everyone else's rights? More debate is needed.

And you are probably right, reason #1 is the main reason that many people oppose gay marriages. Many people believe what somebody wrote in a letter to the editor in the Deseret News today, that "same-sex marriage goes against nature." There are many out there who will never get past that.

Contrary opinions?

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 15:26:26

It sure does go against nature, and I will never get past that. However, to be fair, so do many other things. But this one goes quite a bit more than others. Thus the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah once they were ripe. Those who disagree have the freedom to disagree, but once the consequences start pouring down you can disagree all you want, you still get the consequences. I know the consequences will come. Unfortunately, my ability to prove that I know to others is limited. But I do know it as well as I know the facts of the basic math, and I add my voice of warning to that of others. Some people call this hate. I call it an act of love - those who have been warned must warn their neighbor rather than just sit, point fingers, and say - look at this dummy, his house is just about to burn and he is too dense to notice.

From Burt on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 16:11:22

Cheyl - I've never known anyone to be wrong when they state a fact.

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 16:27:59

Sasha--I absolutely agree with you. You are brave enough to state it. I'm a little shy to say it because I don't want to be labeled intolerant, hate-filled, uncompassionate, etc., etc., all the character assassination terms that are used in this debate (talking about the debate in society, not the debate on this blog, that has been very cordial.) I wish we could just have a discussion on our opinions and facts, and leave the labels alone. I admire you for your courage.

Burt--that is an excellent point; thanks for pointing it out. I'll make sure never to talk about true or untrue facts again.

From Lucia on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 16:35:58

Sasha, how and who defines what is "against nature"? It seems to me it depends on the time and place. Years ago, interracial marriages were forbidden by law because some people considered them to be against nature, and the Mormon church embraced poligamy as being natural... how can we know for sure that years from now we're going to realize what we once thought as being against nature was actually not so?

From Burt on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 16:44:27

Just giving you a hard time, Cheryl. :)

Rocket - has anyone ever given you the birds and the bees talk? I can't do it right now without having my comment deleted. Let's just say, boys have special anatomical parts and so do girls.

From Jason McK on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 17:05:29

Lucia, good point. I think that certain things will bear out in the future. I'm sure that there are plenty of things that happen in nature, but the general population would still call them against nature.

For example, some sharks and frogs can produce offspring without a mate. Black widows eat their partner, hence the name. Salmon swim up the river to spawn and die. Lemmings just run off cliffs...

I suppose that the fact something happens in nature is not what people are talking about when they say something is 'against nature' or 'not natural.' I guess that what they mean is that they don't accept it as natural. But there are things that are natural that we don't accept. For example - survival of the fittest. As humans, we've gotten over natural selection and protect the weakest among us - premature babies, people with disabilities, both mental and physical, etc. We even allow those at the shallow end of the gene pool to reproduce (I'm not saying that I'm in the deep end, I'm only pointing out that there is no requirement of physical or intellectual ability or ability to provide for offspring that must be demonstrated before society 'allows' someone to reproduce, I'm not pointing fingers at any person or group of people as being in the shallow end of the gene pool.)

But going against what one believes are God's natural laws could also be construed as 'against nature.' In this case if God changes his revelation to us, then nature changes, and while I can't predict what God will reveal, I believe the following to be revelation from God: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html

From air darkhorse on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 18:57:17

Has anyone ever heard of common sense?

You can come up with the most elaborate rationale and it still will not make it so..

Marriage is defined as a union between man and woman. ie-Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

It is what it is.. No form of twisted logic or corrupt thinking can ever change that. Homosexuality is an unnatural, wicked practice and is not ordained by the Creator. It is counterproductive to the advancement of the human race in all aspects.

You can call me a bigot, homophobe, whatever I don't care.

It is still WRONG!

From air darkhorse on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:00:23

By the way I thought this was a blog for running, not a platform for social and religious debate.

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:03:04

Right on, Steve! I've been waiting for a comment like that from you. I like people who don't beat around the bush, that's why all of us in our group liked running and talking with you.

Jason McK and Burt--I'd liked your comments also. I just know Air Darkhorse and really appreciated hearing from him.

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:04:00

Come on, Sasha says we can talk about whatever we want. Hasn't this been a fun discussion?

From air darkhorse on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:09:33

Yes, But it is getting tired and worn out.

Nice to hear from you Cheryl! I miss you girls.

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:14:22

Well, then just delete the comments without reading them.:) I still like to hear people's opinions. We miss you too, Steve. Maybe we can plan a run together sometime.

From Matt on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:17:55

I think the opposition has left the building. I would love to Ditto Jason, Burt, Sasha, Cheryl, and Steve’s last comments. On a running related matter Steve I love reading your come back highlights. I am also wondering has anyone seen Corbin Talley at any races recently?

From air darkhorse on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:28:24

Cheryl- Get back to you on that soon.

Matt- I live two doors from Corbin and I never see him. I do know that he runs with the high school kids he coaches however.

The reason why I held back for so long is because I don't like to argue or contend. Don't get me wrong, I would never deny a gay person their individual rights or treat them differently in any sense from any other person. But I will never accept their lifestyle as being correct.

From Matt on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 19:37:24

I haven't seen him since the Summer of 2006 and a bunch of guys I work with went to High school with him and ran track with. They are always asking me about him. The last time I talked to him he said he wasn't training as much and told me the same thing about the high school kids keeping him busy.

Thanks for the info.

From Shanti on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 20:24:31

"Don't get me wrong, I would never deny a gay person their individual rights or treat them differently in any sense from any other person."

LOL!! Just the right to marry and have the same rights as everyone else. LOL!

Matt,

The oppositition is still here, I am just waiting for Cheryl, or anyone, else to tell which rights she exclude from the gay couple who ends up with the civil union. Seperate but equal is never equal.

I offered my solution, a civil union for everyone, and marriage as a religious institution that binds two people between themselves and their faith.

From Cheryl on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 20:39:50

See, Steve, now you're involved in the argument and contention.

Shanti--I think I've explained how I feel about the issue. How the legalization of gay marriage would affect adoption laws is my hang up to supporting gay marriage. Did you read my posts? Convince me that children aren't going to be deprived of having both a mother and father and maybe I could support it. (I guess I still have to get over the "unnatural" aspect of gay marriages, but that's another issue.)

My problem is I don't believe that gay and heterosexual relationships are "equal" as I've tried to explain in my many posts. Therefore I would be afraid of treating them absolutely equally in the eyes of the law. Too many unknown ramifications to that. I am for equal treatmeht in things like inheritance laws, employment, things like that. In other things, just because of the biological difference between males and females, I can't support total equality.

Your solution is interesting, I don't know if I totally understand it or all the legal ramifications involved, so I can't comment on it right now. Maybe somebody else has ideas.

From fly on the wall on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 22:23:56

"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience."

Sincerely, a Gentile

From air darkhorse on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 22:59:55

Sorry fly, You can not compromise with evil.

Shanti- I'll state this again, your logic is so full of holes. Just like the idea of marriage between man and beast.. I got you between the eyes and you know it.

From Shanti on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 23:48:04

Ok Darkhorse:

In detail, please explain how you got me between the eyes. Your total of two posts are missing some information.

From kungfublonde on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:31:02

Again, I go away for a few days and it takes off again.

All my reponses to all of this were stated earlier, and I know I don't want to scroll back though 300 posts to find them! It still comes down to faith and we simply disagree. A healthy discussion doesn't have to come to a kumbaya conclusion.

I'm not sure why Shanti is taking blame or being attacked. Especially why he is being singled out. It isn't warranted or reasonable. He's speaking his mind and making his points just like everyone else in this discussion. Turning it from a conversation into an attack doesn't need to happen.

I second Fly's last post (and all his other posts, for that matter).

I'm going to go ice my knee and my foot, and catch up on my blogging. :)

From air darkhorse on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:42:02

Shanti-Do you believe in God?

From Shanti on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:49:40

Air Darkhorse,

It is an irrelevant question, the 1st amendment of the Constitution protects might right to and against religious belief.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 12:23:59

Shanti - I do not accept your interpretation of the 1st Constitutional amendment as the absolute truth any more than you accept the existence of God and the Biblical standards of morality. To me your argument is just as irrelevant.

I would vote in favor of a constitutional amendment that will clarify that while no one church should control the laws of the state, we acknowledge the existence of God, our dependence on him, and thus when major religious practiced in the country agree on a principle, it should be expressed in the law. Like it or not, I vote this way, I teach my children to vote this way, I encourage everybody in my sphere of influence to vote this way.

From Matt on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 13:05:33

Great Point Sasha, this country was founded on religious freedom and our Pledge, Money, and early founding documents make wide reference to God. I think that we still don't infringe on Non Christian, or Judaism values and we allow all men and women the right to worship how, who or what they may or may not. This is of course is only true as long as it doesn't infringe on others values.

Shanti,

I believe the reason that Dark Horse asks his question of your believe is because one would pursue a different line of reasoning with an atheist as opposed to a believer. That being said I would say that you are a believer in spirituality but no with an allegiance to one particular faith. Is it fair to say you would consider yourself somewhat of a free thinker?

Early on in our discussion (I believe it was in one of my first 4 posts) I said that this seemed to be mostly an argument of semantics. I later stated that considerably farther down the line that marriage was ordained of God since the beginning of time and only later on was ordained and endorsed by country. I am wondering now with your last couple posts on.

How to solve the problem?

Create civil unions for straight and gay couples. Marriage becomes an institution of religious institutions without a tie to civil law. If marriages are no longer tied to civil law, churches can then perform marriages based on their own criteria without violating civil rights.

How do you feel this is different than what the country already offers, since in most states anyone could be civilly united heterosexual or homosexual? Additionally do you see this as being contrary to what I have said before directly pertaining to this matter? I am not attempting to be litigious I am just trying to clarify. I realize that neither you nor I except one another’s position but it would appear we may have some common ground.

From kungfublonde on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 13:21:30

Sasha;

To clarify, you want the constitution of the United States to acknowledge the existence of God and you want major religions to have a controlling say in the law? Above and beyond just the voting of the citizens, that is?

I'm trying to understand what you mean by;

"thus when major religious practiced in the country agree on a principle, it should be expressed in the law."

The way I read your post, it sounds like you want to end religious freedom in America. I'm assuming that's not what you mean, but can you state it a different way to help me see your point?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 14:31:11

You can call it ending religious freedom in America if you want, but I will still vote for it. I do not call what we have today a religious freedom. I have been threatened with a lawsuit when I have expressed my religious beliefs, and I would have had no practical way to defend myself against it without going bankrupt had the person carried out the threat. I have had to quit a job because I felt my religious beliefs were being infringed on. I do not own a cable TV or go to movie theaters because I know the shows will offend my beliefs, and no, it is not going to be a Mormon-bashing Baptist sermon, I could handle that a lot better.

What we have is a farce that we tout as a religious freedom. And then we have the gall to go after other countries that see that the king has no clothes and refuse to buy our kings wardrobe.

From kungfublonde on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 14:43:22

Without knowing the specifics of the threats against you, I can't really respond to that example.

Religious freedom is the right to choose how you worship, and it means the government can't mandate certain beliefs. It doesn't mean society can't ever offend you. I'm sure we are offended by many of the same things. We also don't have any television in our home and I don't take my kids to half the movies their friends get to see. I'd still rather live in America than any other country.

As for the hypocrisy of going after other countries, again we agree.

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 15:42:15

I do not know of a country in the world today that mandates beliefs, where they ask you a question "Do you believe this way?", and if you say no you are somehow punished. All countries, however, create laws based on certain absolute beliefs, and most of those beliefs either come from or at least are supported by a consensus of well established religions. Most of the time, when somebody is punished by the law of any country, he acted against some well-established principle that can be traced back to some religion.

In my observation Americans are overhyped about the separation of church and state. To suggest that you could use some consensus of the Bible and Koran as a basis for some law in legal circles is considered blasphemy, probably greater blasphemy that it was to suggest in the Soviet Union that Lenin could have been wrong. Yet countries like Finland have been able to thrive without the holy cow of the American version of separation of church and state.

From Jason McK on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 18:10:40

I would say that the laws of any location are determined by the general beliefs of those in charge of making the laws. In a dictatorship, the dictator determines them. In a democracy, the people determine them. In a republic, the representatives determine them. And in a democratic republic, the representatives that the people chose determine them. If we the people elect people who think the way we think, then what we believe will become the laws. On a small scale, it is more likely that our views will be represented better if we are surrounded by people who think like we do. On a large scale, we are less likely to be surrounded by people who think like we do.

However, as the majority of our ancestors are of European descent (where if I'm not mistaken, Christianity is the predominant belief system) then our laws are more likely to attempt to reflect Christian beliefs. Many could rightfully argue that Christianity really isn't too far different in beliefs from many other world religions so people could be equally (or almost equally) protected who believe a different way.

However, beliefs that aren't close to mainstream Christianity may not be protected quite as well. For instance, those who believe that cows are sacred animals may find the majority of restaurants to be offensive. We do not protect those beliefs. As a people, we believe that all men are free, so we actively fight countries that deny freedoms to their people (at least that's what we're told and so most of us are OK with it).

I think that in the United States, we do have somewhat of a separation of church and state, but we do not have a separation of belief and state. That's impossible and contradictory in a democratic republic. We the people determine what is decent and we protect that.

Up until the early 70's, all states had laws against sodomy. Since then, many states have repealed them, then in 2003, a Supreme court decision invalidated the state laws. Clearly the belief system of the United States wasn't ready for such a change prior to the 70's as all states had laws on the books. As the USA becomes less religious, the general public's idea of decency is 'degrading' to those who still hold 'traditional' religious morals. I say 'traditional' meaning Christianity because the percentage of American adults who identify themselves as Christians dropped from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001 - based on one study, many show similar trends... And I say 'degrading' because those who are of the traditional religion tend to think that the changes taking place in society aren't positive.

I could be crazy, but this makes sense in my head.

From kungfublonde on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 18:13:58

You're not crazy :)

From Jason McK on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 18:18:57

By the way, I did find the following on Wiki to be a bit interesting...

"In the study, sociologists Penny Edgell, Joseph Gerties and Douglas Hartmann conducted a survey of American public opinion on attitudes towards different groups. Forty percent of respondents characterized atheists as a group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society", putting atheists well ahead of every other group, with the next highest being Muslims (26 percent) and homosexuals (23 percent)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:09:01

So an interesting thought. Question for our LDS readers. Suppose we got to a point where we had large and very religiously active Muslim and Hindi populations. Would you support restrictions on the sales of pork and cow meat for their sake if they supported restrictions on the sales of alcohol, tobacco, and caffeinated drinks for your sake?

The answer to this particular one is easy for me because I have nothing to lose - I do not eat pork or beef anyway. But even if they restricted bananas instead, I would still support it. Getting rid of alcohol and tobacco is important enough for me to where I'd be willing to eat another fruit if I had to.

From Jason McK on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:26:01

No, that sounds too much like "I'll sign your bill into law if you include $40 million for a bridge for my constituents." You get what you want, I get what I want and still everyone loses...

From Shanti on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:30:45

I am interested in the interpretation of the following passage:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/134

From Jason McK on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:31:16

Besides that, other than excessive amounts of alcohol and tobacco smoke, those items being available for others doesn't bother me on moral grounds. They can be consumed (in moderation) without really affecting others. I would rather get rid of pornography - I can't think of a legitimate religion that contends that pornography (even in moderation) doesn't affect others.

From Matt on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:35:48

Sasha,

I had no idea you didn’t eat Beef or Pork, I am assuming you eat Fish and Chicken how about Lamb? I knew you ate very healthy (I have checked out Sarah’s recipes) but I think that is awesome. I also avoid Beef and Pork a week before races if I can but I am not near as committed as you.

I don’t drink caffeinated beverages or soda much at all and would be happy if they disappeared all together for general health benefits of the nation if not for religious reasons. Although, I usually take some type of caffeine energy drink before races as well as Imodium, pseudoephedrine & N. O. explode with creatine. I have never used tobacco for body or anything else. Although, I know people that have used tobacco for medical purposes. I have never knowingly consumed alcohol. I tend to think all these things are vices and the world would be better off without them. Although, I cook with alcohol and have always hypothesized that if the world did away with wine we would make more and different types of grape juices. That being said I think I would be willing to give up Beef and Pork if it was reciprocated by tobacco, caffeine and alcohol. I would have to have fish and chicken though I tried the vegetarian thing before and it doesn’t work very well for me.

So since you feel no sacrifice let me throw it back your way. If you lived in a Jewish dominated community and as a matter of Sabbath day observance no races took place from Sun Down Friday to Sun Down Saturday which meant virtually all non holiday races were run on Sunday how would you respond?

Jason

I would give my left arm if the world could rid itself of the Porn.

From Jason McK on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:49:08

Shanti, I suspect that the verse you wonder most about is "9 We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied."

At the risk of appearing ignorant, my interpretation takes into account verse "1 We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society."

Meaning, IMHO, that one religion shouldn't be favored over another religion, but that all religions seek guidance from Him who created us. But recognizing God as our creator, all (or the great majority of) religions subscribe to a similar set of morals and beliefs, though the details may vary.

In light of the current thread and the topic of gay marriage, I'm not sure which religions, professing revelation from God, support the idea that God wants any participating in the 'act of procreation' except for legally married man and wife.

I don't know exactly what gets classified as 'religion' but I'm thinking that according to the passage, it is those who believe in God and know that they are accountable to Him and try to do His will...

From Shanti on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 20:43:51

Jason,

Thank you for your answer.

Sasha,

Are you for a theocracy?

From adamr on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 22:48:13

To "tolerate the intolerable," ..., is not a virtue but a vice. For to do so is to obliterate moral distinctions and thus morality itself.

Take from this what you will...I think it is a exceptional statement.

Sasha I think you would like Ben Stein's movie "Expelled" on teaching/writing about intelligent design in Universities. You can still get it at redbox, I think. Comparison of Berlin Wall, etc to current higher education practices.

From Jon on Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 13:21:18

Sasha- why are you so quick to restrict/eliminate people's freedoms (i.e. pork, cow, caffeinated beverages)? I think we too quickly impose our views/beliefs on others. I'm not even talking moral issues here, but using your example of food choices.

D&C 134:

vs 2- "secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience"

vs 4- "never control conscience"

When you say "thus when major religious practiced in the country agree on a principle, it should be expressed in the law" appears to me to contradict D&C 134 vs 9. I believe if something is not a moral issue and does not impose on other people's life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness, then we should leave them to do what they want. Let them eat bananas. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/a/75

My 2 cents.

From Jason McK on Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 14:03:57

Jon, I agree with your point about something not being a moral issue and imposing on life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness...

But I do wonder about things that don't seem to be so clear cut. For example, abortion to those that are against it have to do with protecting life of another being, but to those that are pro-choice, it is about their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I think the life of an unborn child is generally regarded as more sacred than the life of a cow or pig, but to many, the unborn child is just a collection of cells. I may be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that people who hold cows as sacred also don't practice abortion.

So on moral grounds, if abortion is allowed, then I certainly should have the right to kill my cows (I don't have any). But, if abortion isn't allowed based on peoples' beliefs, then cows should also be protected if a large percentage strongly believe that they are sacred...

From Matt on Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 14:41:51

I think Jason brings up several good points. I also think there is good reason that the church attempts to not take a stand on political parties and candidates and rarely takes a stand on political issues. I have many good LDS friends who voted for every candidate across the board according to the dictates of their own conscious. The reason I have never joined a political party is because I can’t accept the whole platform. I vote for candidates who I think will most represent my views even though I know they won’t all the time. I don’t even think I represent my views from two years ago and the person I will be in two years is probably not represented by what I believe today. I think most politicians get into politics for noble reasons and tend to change over time but still try to do their best. There are many ways to arrive at a solution to a particular problem.

I also am a big advocate of man’s free agency. It is a gift from God and we all have the opportunity to use it. We may use are free agency to make life more restrictive for ourselves and the world around us. Likewise, we may try to make the world less restrictive allowing for more choices, responsibility, and potential for problems. Both philosophies have different strengths and weaknesses and to varying degrees we accept this line of thinking on different levels on different issues. Like it or not all of us have expressed views on this thread that would both increase and decrease free agency on the main issue at hand. I think one of the greatest tests of our free agency is how we use it. Essential there are only two reasons why we are on this earth, to gain a body and to be tested. If we truly believe that we were created in the image of God and have the potential to be like him, how could we possibly expect such a great reward without a thorough testing ground? There is a reason why life has to be hard and tough.

From Rob Murphy on Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 19:24:51 from 24.10.249.165

Wow!

I just read this whole thing. These days the FRB is mostly about running.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.750.000.001.2513.00

A.M. Ran with Derek and Dustin. We did 5x400 on the trail.

Times:

70.1 - 67.8 - 67.8 - 67.5 - 69.0

Recovery: 200 jog between the first three, after that 400 jog.

Subjective: Compared to last week, the effort was the same, but was able to hit faster times. Decided to increase the rest after 3 repeats to make sure the remaining two would stay faster. However, I still faded on the last one. Regardless of how fast we went I had my breathing back to normal in 30 seconds. The intensity of breathing during the repeat appeared to correlate with how fast I ran it, but the perceived effort did not. The last 200 meters of the last repeat felt very similar to the last half mile of the tempo run on Tuesday.

Ran a cool down to make the total 10 miles.

My original plan was to increase to 8 repetitions once I am able to do 4 averaging under 70, which I accomplished today. However, I decided to revise the plan. Instead, work on getting those as fast as possible. First under 67, then 66, 65, 64. Once I can do all under 64, then maybe do 400 to warm up, then 800 under 2:20, then if that is not too hard, another 800 under 2:20, otherwise, go back to 400. Work on being able to run the whole mile under 4:40. Once I am there, work on doing mile repeats under 4:40. Then 2x1.5 at 4:45 pace. Then a sub-15:00 5 K. Once I can do that, I can start thinking about an OTQ in the marathon.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:04. 2 with Benjamin in 17:06. Jenny joined for the first 1.5 in 13:02.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Jon on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 13:29:58

How do you get the Delete and Edit buttons to work on blog comments? I put a double comment on lisap's blog today, but it wouldn't let me delete the first even though I push the button.

From Phoenix on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 15:49:43

I think this is a good plan. With this workout, the speed of the 400s is far more important than the number of repeats. Just do at least 2; 4-5 is probably optimal.

From Phoenix on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 15:51:30

Also, being eu- or even hypercaloric going into hard workouts like this is very important. Meaning, eat well the day before. This makes a big difference for me.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 13:38:52

Jon - you need to be logged in.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.100.000.000.0013.10

A.M. Ran alone. 10.1 in 1:08:53. A little faster today for a rather odd reason. I was feeling stoked about the economy, of all things. Yes, I am excited. Hard to explain the reasons, but I am just stoked. I feel I know something to be excited about even if I cannot quite formulate it. Maybe I should try and it will come out.

Our economy has been a huge wasteful behemoth . Collectively as a nation we produce mostly junk. Junk food, overpriced cars, frivolous law suits, overcomplicated laws most people cannot understand without the help of a professional whose sole expertise is in studying those laws, multi-level marketing schemes, over-hyped gimmicks of various kinds, you name it. Only maybe 10-20% of our collective what we do goes towards something that truly honestly contributes to life quality. The rest we would not only be able to do without, much of it we would be better off without.

So with the recent "crisis" we are being forced to normalize the economy. If all of our car makers produce no new cars (extremely unlikely, but let's consider the worst possible case) I won't miss it for another 20 years as long as the spare parts are available and some car shops are still in business. First 10 years I will drive what I have now. 10 years later I will buy a 10 year old car and drive it for another 10 years. People are spending less, I say good for them. Learn to live on what you have, learn to sacrifice, get a small taste of what it's like in other less affluent countries.

I have to say I have no clue about going without. I've never been hungry for too long because the food was not there. I've never had to sleep outside or on a dirt floor. Yet I know a lot more about going without than most Americans. I remember in the 90s when the food shortages hit Russia that I wished they had a store out in the middle of nowhere so that to get there you'd have to take a train, and then walk or run a mile, and that the train would go there only once a day. I would have never had to wait in line. Those memories make me thankful for what I have now. I live in a 2050 sq ft. home with my wife and six children, and to me it is a mansion. We have three cars! The line for food is rarely more than 5 people. You can buy fresh exotic fruit like bananas all year round. I own several computers and they are connected to the internet. With the "crisis" those things do not appear to be going away. It is not a crisis, it is a little bit of a reminder to put your wants/needs head back on your shoulders.

P.M. 1 mile with Julia in 10:20. Then 2 miles with Benjamin, and Jenny joining for 1.5. No time taken - the watch broke during the run. It was the prize from Ogden - Suunto T4.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.3415.000.000.0023.34

A.M. Ran with Nick. This morning all of my watches were not functional. Suunto T4 died - probably dead battery. Garmin 305 refused to boot. So I had Nick tell me the splits.

We did a warm-up, 15 mile tempo, then a cool-down. Total of 20 miles.

I think Nick accidentally stopped his watch during the first quarter, so I am going to add 7 seconds to adjust for that to the relevant splits and total time.

Total time - 1:27:10 (5:48.67 avg).

Splits by 2.5 (yes we did it on the standard course, 6 times on the same stretch of the trail from Geneva to the Utah Lake turnaround):

14:33 - 14:29 - 14:05 - 14:25 - 14:28 - 15:10

Subjective: At first it felt hard. Then I tucked behind Nick and he mesmerized me with his rhythm. He picked up the pace, and I was able to handle it. We were going faster than 5:40 and it did not feel unbearable. Then around 8 miles into it I started struggling and asked Nick to back off. Was able to hold around 5:45 pace for a while until 11. Then I started losing it. Nick took off at 12.5 and closed with 13:42 last 2.5. After he took off I did not have any splits. I felt that I was sprinting, but at the same time I could tell my legs were moving slow. But there was nothing I could do.

Overall happy with the tempo. I think it is the fastest non-aided 15 mile tempo I've ever run in training. Now if only those 2.5 mile splits were 5 K splits :-)

P.M. 1 mile with Julia, no time taken due to the lack of functional timing equipment. Then tried the Garmin and it booted. Ran 2 miles with Benjamin and Jared in 17:05. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 12:31. 200 with Jacob, 0.34 with Joseph.


Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 20.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Phoenix on Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 20:26:33

Nice job on the record tempo. IMHO, to train your central governor to reset its neuro-fatigue/-inhibition point, its essential to shut things down when it becomes apparent you are entering neuro-failure. But, accelerate briefly before doing so and then perform a manual shut-down before the auto shut-down happens. Training the nervous system to increase output when failure is just starting will increase your ability to perform manual overide in races. In contrast, continuing to push while slowing down only reinforces the inhibitor's dominance over the manual will.

From britta on Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 23:10:04

What makes a run aided or non-aided?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 13:36:53

Britta:

Non-aided means no net downhill or being propelled by a tailwind.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church. The sacrament meeting talks were on living the gospel of Jesus Christ vs following the rules of the Church as part of the culture. 

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 10.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.440.000.000.0013.44

A.M. 10.1 with Derek and Dustin in 1:11:53. Discussed a number of subjects - mainly automaker bailout, and cross-country racing. My thoughts on the automaker bailout are that they have been making way too many cars and have been overpricing them on top of it. I think we would all benefit from a law that would force the insurance damage payouts limited to $20K or so on any car. If somebody wants to have a luxury car, and it gets totaled, let him absorb the cost. Also, tax anything above that really high, e.g. 100%. Basically, pass a set of laws that encourages meeting the needs while punishing excessive wants. Good luck with that in our culture of "I want the best, and I want it now", but I think that would help the automakers in the long run a lot more than the bailout. They WILL find ways to make most cars so that they sell for less than $20K. Of course, the market might force them to do that anyway if we just do nothing to bail them out.

Took Jacob for 200 meters - untimed.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:26, 2 with Benjamin in 16:56, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:05. We played leap frog. 0.34 with Joseph in 3:44.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.150.002.850.0013.00

A.M. Ran alone. Did the 2.5 tempo run. Ran a 4.12 mile warm-up.

Tempo run:

Course: As usual, from Utah Lake gate to Geneva. Slight net uphill, mostly in the last mile.

Total time: 13:46.5

Splits by 0.5: 2:43 - 2:44 - 2:44 - 2:48 - 2:47.

Subjective: At 1 mile felt the legs were moving quick, but not quick enough. Some components of quickness were present, but others were absent. Felt stuck in the 84 second per quarter gear on the last mile. Did not feel too bad, but just could not go any faster. In fact, the pace felt hard from the beginning, but I hoped it was just cold weather, that I would warm up eventually. The run went on, it did not get any harder, but it did not get any easier either.

On the cool down I saw a runner moving at a decent speed, and ran about 0.35 at a tempo pace to catch up. Got to meet him - his name is Drew Johnson. I remembered that I'd run with him once before, and I correctly remembered that he was a math major at BYU. I gave him my standard geek test. He set a record for correctly computing 2i while running - it took him about 100 meters. Then I also discovered that he had served a mission in Korea.

You meet all kinds of people while running in Provo - math geeks, Russian speakers, Italian speakers, Korean speakers. Spanish speakers - well it is almost a given. Most of my training partners over the years have spoken Spanish.

Afterwards, 200 with Jacob in 1:43, 0.34 with Joseph in 4:25 (slow today because his pants were falling down), and 1 with Julia in 10:35.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:52. Jenny joined us for 1.5 in 12:38.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 11.34
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From wheakory on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 13:42:20

Great run as always Sasha. What do you recommend has far as training for faster miles this winter. Doing a tempo once a week to keep good form?

From tarzan on Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 19:06:47

I like Joseph's mileage. Maybe I could borrow his excuse when I am slow.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.000.001.000.0012.00

A.M. 10 miles in 1:18:28, first 7 with Jeff. Ran a tempo mile in 5:29 just because - the legs felt a bit feisty and I decided to give them a shake.

Discussed a new economic concept I have thought of. Perhaps it is not new, just plain common sense, but I do not see it discussed very often. They talk about inflation, price index, GDP, (un)employment rate, etc, but I find those measurements rather removed from real life. Example - we say that creating new jobs is good, but removing jobs is bad. By that definition, if one could completely automate the production of life necessities and conveniences that would be bad because a lot of jobs would be lost. We are producing and buying from each other a lot of gimmicky junk, this raises our GDP. If increased GDP is what we are after, producing more junk is good. When we try to spend less time producing the gimmicky junk and more time with our families, GDP goes down, so that is bad.

So I wanted to have a different set of metrics and came up with this rough idea:

Each individual at any point in his life contributes and withdraws economic value. E.g when he eats he withdraws. When he produces food he contributes. When he helps somebody in some way he contributes. He may get paid for his contribution, he may not. He might have to pay to withdraw or he might not. We create a withdrawal-contribution model by assigning a value to every action. Granted, you can debate the values, but I believe you tried hard enough you could create a reasonable model. We already do it with money, and it works more or less OK, at least enough to keep us doing things for each other even when we do not feel like it. But we could do much better if all we are doing is a mathematical analysis - e.g we can assign a teacher much higher contribution value than a tobacco sales exec, and we do not have to pass any laws in the Congress, raise taxes, or mess with the free market otherwise.

Throughout an individual's life, the deposits and withdrawals add up to a net total. The key to our survival and progress is to have the net total of the whole population as high as possible. Definitely a non-negative, ideally highly positive. To make that happen, we need to maximize the net total of each individual. Some will have to be negative. E.g someone is born with a handicap. Others will be highly positive - e.g a scientist that invents a process for feeding millions off a small portion of land. We want to help each individual arrive at the end of his life with a positive balance.

We are born with a negative balance already - our parents had to sacrifice just for the pregnancy alone. As children we continue to accrue the negative. Then hopefully we eventually get to the point where we are starting to deposit more than we withdraw, and begin to eat away the negative balance. At some point it hopefully becomes positive, hopefully positive enough to where when we get old and need care, we have enough positive to still stay positive all the way through.

The cause of the current economic crisis could be explained in traditional economic terms and complex discussion of cash flow, assets, borrowing, etc, but I believe it is much simpler. As a society we have been withdrawing more than we have been contributing. Again, referencing the thoughts above, not necessarily just the money, but rather in terms of true value which correlates with money maybe 50-70%. For a while we were OK because the previous generation has build a positive balance of value. But now that we've squandered some of it things are starting to get a bit tougher. The solution is to start contribution more and withdrawing less.

So with that vision in mind our education should be reformed. Right now we have a system when a lot of people do not reach the level of a positive economic existence until they are 30, and I would guess net zero is often not reached until 45. While education is very important, we need to do something to help people become productive contributors while they are being educated. Less pure academic learning and more learning on the job in other words. In my area (computer programming), for example, most jobs require a BS degree. Yet every good programmer I've ever known acquired most of his skill either on the job or hacking on his own. If he went to school at all he did so to prove that he was good more than to become good. Classroom instruction would not hurt, but political issues aside, if somebody asked me to train a good programmer, I would spend 10% of the time instructing him, and 90% of the time throwing him in the water to see if he would learn to swim. While learning how to swim he could produce something useful and end his education with a positive net value balance.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 16:41, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:08. Julia was sick, so no run for her.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From allie on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 23:23:53

these are very interesting thoughts. brilliant.

From Matt on Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 01:16:02

Holy crude Sasha, I just sat down and read your logs for the week. You never stop buddy. Is the programming just not keeping you busy enough lately. You remind me of a lot of me econ buddies from the Y. My wife always gets driven crazy by me over thinking at my best, the way you seem too nonstop. Simple question though. For the race predictor or just in general how much time would you subtract per mile for a 1000 feet in elevation. I am running in the Northwest this next week and I have developed an estimate internally based off of past experience and I am just wondering your thoughts on the matter.

From Rob R on Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 01:22:49

Hi Sasha -

Read you economics piece, and appreciated the thought and care that went into creating it.

One comment on your idea, is that co-op education provides the kind of opportunity for on-the-job training that you discuss.

It is most often accompanied by a salary, increasing the "withdrawl" that an individual makes, even while the product of their work increases their "deposit" to society.

I'm attaching a link to wikipedia where an alternate to GDP is discussed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genuine_Progress_Indicator

This works on the tennant that we add the positive aspects of economic activity, and subtract the negative aspect of economic activity, to come to some indicator of where we stand as a society.

i.e. the Exxon Valdez spill generated millions of dollars in clean-up related charges that were positive to Alaska's GDP (equipment rentals, hotel stays, meals), but negatively impacted tourism, wildlife, habitat in and around Prince William Sound. We need to look at both sides of the equation.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 21:19:26

Matt - the programming is going well. Sometimes compilation/test suite runs take a long time.

Try this calculator:

http://www.runworks.com/calculator.html

Of course, take it with a grain of salt. When you first descend to a lower elevation you often cannot get your legs going at the right pace for a while.

RobR - thanks for the info.

From Matt on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 14:56:45

Sasha thanks a million for the link. I have been playing around with it and it is awesome.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.090.000.001.2513.34

A.M. Ran alone. I got a feel of what it's like to not have the trail. A portion of the trail was blocked due to construction, so I had to take a detour for about 1.2 miles and deal with cars on 820 N and Geneva Road. This reminded me that I should be thankful for where I live.

Did 4x400 on the trail - 70.9, 70.7, 69.8, 70.0 - 200 recovery between the first three, then 400. Was originally planning the 5th 400 but because I was hitting them so slow and could not go any faster decided to break the last one into 2x200. Did them in 33.1 and 33.4. Fast speed was not happening today, but it was not as bad as a few weeks ago when I could not break 72.

Felt like the stride was not explosive enough and did not feel good control over the legs in general. Like if I had to write with my feet it would have produced the doctor's level of illegibility even if adjusted for the expected hand-foot legibility gap.

200 with Jacob in 1:41 (new record), and 0.34 with Joseph in 4:09.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:05. 2 with Benjamin in 17:32, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:18.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. 10 miles in 1:12:33, first 8 with Dustin and Derek. 

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:05, 2 with Benjamin in 16:49, Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 12:45. 

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.702.009.000.0020.70

A.M. Tempo run with Jeff. Did some bushwhacking on the warm-up trying to find a alternative route to having to run on 820 N and Geneva road. Found a one-way solution of sorts, but it was not viable - too much hole crawling and fence climbing. Total of 2.75 for the warm-up.

Tempo run. Usual course - the 2.5 mile stretch between Geneva Road and the Utah Lake, out and back twice/(three times for Jeff). The plan was 10 for me, 15 for Jeff. After I am done with my 10, join Jeff at his 13.5 and try to run as far as I could at his pace. The workout had different purposes for each of us. For Jeff - develop fuel storage capabilities. For me - learn to fight neural fatigue.

Total time: 55:59 - new course PR by 39 seconds.

Splits:

by mile: 5:43 - 5:36 - 5:38 - 5:34 - 5:38 - 5:28 - 5:41 - 5:33 - 5:31 - 5:37

by 2.5: 14:08 - 14:01 - 13:54 - 13:56

by 5: 28:09 - 27:50

Subjective:

This was a breakthrough run. I was not expecting it. I have difficulty understanding where this strength came from. I cannot think of any regular physiological reasons. This whole week has not been that great. The only thing I can think of is my conversation with Hobie Call the day before. As we talked about training and other things something happened. I got off the phone, and felt different. I did not think much of it although I did wonder with a measure of hope in the back of my mind if it was a real physical change, not just a feeling. Once I heard that the Japanese believe in learning by osmosis, or in other words, assimilating a skill or a capability by virtue of merely being around a person who has that capability. The person telling me about it was mocking the notion, but as he did I thought to myself, and ever wondered since, if there was some merit to this concept. I think today I observed the strongest material witness that learning by osmosis has something validity.

Hobie and I have opposite strengths and weaknesses. His neural drive is superb. He can run a 5 K so hard that his muscles will hurt for a week. I cannot run a marathon that hard. But at the same time, I can put my body through all kinds of abuse and never get injured, while he has to watch every step. I have wished I could borrow a portion of his neural drive for a long time. Well, it appears like I was able to do it, and all I had to do was talk and listen. I did not do any mental games, or visualization before or after, except briefly thinking 2 miles into the run about how the leaders ran a suicidal pace in the Olympic marathon. If anything, I doubted the entire time that I could keep the pace. But something got reprogrammed on the subconscious level and I just kept doing fast quarters one after another.

The entire run after 0.5 miles felt like a long long quarter. I noticed my legs wanted to do a quarter, and I just let them. For some reason I had no fear. The odd thing is that I've tried this many times in the past, but it was the top-down decision. I would say to myself, go this pace until you cannot, or push yourself into pain and see how much pain you can take. And it never really worked. The conscious will was there, but the subconscious will was lacking. Today the conscious will was lacking, but the subconscious will was there. So after the first mile I started pushing the pace and breathing hard not quite sure of where I was headed with that. 2 miles into it I gave myself a reassurance that if this worked for Wanjiru, it could work for me. But I was still skeptical thinking build a gap, the longer you go, the less you will lose when you crash because there will be less left.

At 2.5 I thought - it would be nice if I could keep this, but I know I can't. Nevertheless, I tucked behind Jeff and just kept telling myself, one more quarter at this pace. It hurt, but surprisingly never got worse. By 5 miles I began to believe that I could finish ahead of the 5:40 guy given a decent star alignment. Then Jeff at 5.75 got confused by his watch and thought we had slowed down to 5:50 pace. So he "corrected" it and our next quarter was 79. That hurt, but the fact that I could do it at all was very encouraging. Taking the next mile easy in 5:41 allowed me to recover, and I began to believe that 56:30 was a possibility. At 7.5 we were 3 seconds behind the 5:36 guy and I thought it would be good to get beat by 10-15 seconds, so 56:10-56:15. But Jeff kept pressing the pace, and I managed to stay with him, and to my utter amazement with a mile to go we got 2 seconds ahead of the impossible-to-beat-for-10-miles-on- that-course-56:00-5:36 guy.

When I finished 1 second ahead of my virtual elusive nemesis and started jogging I realized how mentally drained I was from the effort and was not looking forward to any more running, much less fast running. But I needed miles, and I wanted to do what I could to support Jeff. I said to myself, just 0.5 miles, that's better than just leaving Jeff in the hole to run alone. I was able to make it to the mile, in a great degree thanks to the fact that Jeff was hurting. But it was still a decent mile - 5:29.

Jeff had a great run - 1:23:02 for 15 miles, in my estimate worth 2:25 in Ogden if he does not blow up. Right now he probably will, but with those tempos done consistently he likely won't when it is time to race.

We cooled down, this gave me 17.8 for the whole run.


P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:18, 2 with Benjamin in 17:38, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:23.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 17.80
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From paul on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 19:51:54

Glad Hobie rubbed off on you in a good way. I had a similar experience last summer after he thrashed me and made me look foolish at the Sandy Classic. My training definitely improved after I talked to him about how hard he was training.

From wheakory on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 00:33:27

Nice run. I believe someone that you know has great potential can put a different fire or motivation in your own training to want to improve. He really got you excited, and maybe put some energy in your motivation.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. 10 miles alone in 1:11:56. Still feeling stoked about the economy.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:29, 2 with Benjamin in 17:47, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:27. 

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.750.000.001.2513.00

A.M. Ran with Tyler. He is a business/finance major so it was fun to talk to him about the economy. We did quarters. I did 5, he did 10. 200 meter recovery between all.

Times: 69.4, 70.3, 69.4, 69.8, 69.4

Subjective: Consistent, quick recovery, faster than last week, but still slow. They all felt hard, like in all honesty I could not do them any faster even with infinite rest. Question - is the problem in the power, or in the turnover? If turnover I need to run downhill. Otherwise uphill.

Total distance - 10 miles.

P.M.  1 with Julia in 10:42, 2 with Benjamin in 17:35, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:15.

 

 

 


Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Phoenix on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 09:12:19

Faster than last week is good. Last week you dropped to 33.x 200s instead of a fifth 400--obviously faster than 69-70 second pace. You clearly have more power. So, what would happen if you went out in 33 and just kept going?

From seth on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 14:32:15

Hey Sasha,

I decided to focus on the Utah Marathons next year. I am having Demetrio write up workout plans all the way through St George. I was curious if you would also show me how you would coach me through this next year with the goal of peaking for the Salt Lake Marathon and St. George, with the other marathons having small tapers but no real peaks. I just want to gather information now, and then I will decide which method to use. Please let me know if you are willing to write something like this up.

Thanks, Seth

From Sasha Pachev on Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 16:10:30

Eric - funny you asked. Tyler timed a few 200 splits and they were 33. So I was going out in 33 and then not holding it. This was faster than last week, but slower than two weeks ago. However, two weeks ago Derek was pushing the pace, and I was sitting on him.

Seth - I would say the key workout for you is 15 mile tempo at 5:30 pace on a flat surface in ideal conditions at 4500 feet. Do that once a week. Adjust for the conditions as necessary. Some variation is possible - e.g 4x4 miles or 3x5 miles at the same pace. The other key element is not to skip days, run at least 10 miles per run once a day (the second run can be shorter). The third element is speed maintenance/development, and that will depend on where your speed is currently at, and on some individual qualities of your body that I am not familiar with. You need to be able to run 800 in 2:00, the mile in 4:15, and a course like the current Draper Days in 14:45. You definitely fail right now on the 5 K, but the question is - do you pass the 800 test, and how about the mile? This will provide the insights as to why you fail the 5 K test. If you fail the 800, shooting from the hip I would recommend 5x400 as close to 60 as you can with as much rest as you need. If you pass 800 but fail the mile, 3x800 in 2:07 with as much rest as you need. Or a ladder - 1000 (2:40), 600 (1:34), 400 (60), 200 whatever you can with as much rest as you need. If you pass the mile, 4x1 mile in 4:40, or 3x2000 in 5:50, or 2x1.5 in 7:00. One speed development/maintenance session a week.

Pay close attention to how you are feeling, and to whether you are improving in the areas of speed and endurance. The training must be adjusted if your body is not handling it, or if it is not producing improvements.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Dustin, and Derek. Dustin and Derek went 8, Jeff and I added 2 more. Total time 1:14:47. I overdressed at the top.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:32. 2 with Benjamin in 16:50. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 12:49.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From wheakory on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 13:53:16

Sasha - Have a Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy your family and friends. God Bless you. It's been a privilege to get to know you. Enjoy that new baby you have. Also eat a lot of food today. Say hi to Sarah for me.

Race: Earn Your Turkey 4 miler (4 Miles) 00:21:22, Place overall: 10
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
7.000.000.004.0011.00

A.M. Earn Your Turkey 4 miler in Orem. 21:22.6, 10th place.

Today was a special day. Everybody in our family except Sarah and William ran. I ran first. We had a fast field. The start was very fast. I worked through the pack until I found Stephen Clark pacing Shaine Kirtright, and tucked in behind them. The mile markers were off. For the record, my time at the first mile marker was 5:06, but it was short. 5:30 at the official 3 mile mark which we would hit on the next lap again, and the it was really supposed to be 3 miles, but I knew already it was in the wrong place. I caught a split at the four triangles for 1.25, and it was 6:40. Now that made sense. 2 mile split officially in 10:41, I think that one was right.

Then around 2 miles Shaine started struggling, Stephen started yelling at him, and I passed them and surged to catch Gamechu, a high school runner that immigrated from Ethiopia. Caught him, he surged and dropped me, but I was able to pull back up. Tucked in behind him as tight as I could. 15:55 at the official mile 1 the second time around, 16:06 at the triangles, I think this was the actual 3 mile split, and 16:19 at the official mile 3. My natural tendency to association cannot help but remind me of the standard Soviet propaganda line when they spoke about America: "According to the official, obviously distorted, data ..."

With about 1 K to knowing that Gamechu had a close to 11.0 PR in 100 meters I tried to break him, but could not. He ended up gapping me instead, but I closed with a quarter to go. But then it was too late. He turned on his kick and pulled ahead. He eased off, I closed some, but could not catch him. I timed the last quarter in 76.

Ahead of me: Sean Sundwall 19:55.3, Nick McCombs 19:59.8, Jeff McClellan (our Jeff) 20:02.1, Reagan Fry 20:13.8, Aaron Robison 20:30.1, Shin Nozaki 20:33.0, Danny Moody 20:45.1, Thatcher Olson 21:11.9, and Gamechu Goesse 21:21.9. 1-2-3-7-8 for the blog. Not bad in that field. Bloggers beat BYU, not bad at all. Of course, not sure how to count Thatcher - he is both.

Overall the race went better than I expected. 5:20 pace felt good when tucked behind somebody. Felt like I could run a 10 K like this. But not any faster. Did not handle surges well, they hurt bad. On the positive side of things ran strong all the way, did not fade in the last mile. So while the neural power is lacking the neural endurance is not doing too bad.

Now the fun begins. Kids races. Men 0-2 - 100 meters. Jacob won with 35 seconds. This is our family record for the diaper division. 9:20 pace while wearing a diaper, how about that? We've tried to win that division ever since we've had kids. It took 5 tries (as in kids, not the number of runs).

Men 3-4, 400 meters. Joseph ran 2:34 for 7th place. A new PR, and not bad for a 3 year old. His stride is still developing though, he shuffles. No big deal, he'll outgrow it. Jenny used to shuffle at his age as well.

Women 5-6. 800 meters. Julia crushed the field with a 3:51 winning by more than 40 seconds. New PR. Splits of 1:51 - 2:00, quarter PR en route as well. She pushed hard, which for her is remarkable. She is not developed mentally to the level of Benjamin and Jenny at her age yet.

Women 7-8. 800 meters. Jenny won coming from behind. Her time was 3:21, splits by quarter 1:41 - 1:40. There comes Jenny the Fire Breathing Dragon, better watch out.

Men 9-10. 1 mile. Benjamin finished second with 6:14, 4 seconds behind his arch-rival Jacob Blackburn who is a year older. New mile PR. Last quarter in 1:30. He gave it all he had.

Interesting enough, in all of the races our kids ran the Pachev-Blackburn combination did a 1-2 punch. The main Blackburn family has 10 children, and they have cousins as well. It is fun to race them.

All of the children performed according to my expectations. After having worked with my kids for probably 7 or so years I can appreciate the significance of this. This is a true miracle. I do not set my expectations low. I do not tell a kid he did a good job to make him feel good when he performed poorly. When he runs below expectations I am  honest with him, we analyze what went wrong, and make plans on how we are going to improve.  You can train, you can prepare, you can make plans, and things still go wrong. They go wrong even with adults. With all the experience I have I still have bad races. With kids it is much worse - kids can run into issues adults never will (hopefully), like a temper tantrum at the start, or half way through the race. To have all five run with no glitches was something special.

Ran a cool-down with Jeff, total of 11 miles for the day.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 11.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Matt on Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 23:55:49

Sasha,

Congrats to you and your whole family I have to get my kids doing some races it is some much fun and a confidence booster. I had a run picked out up here but my mother in law would have killed me.

From Burt on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 11:01:21

Awesome job for both you and the family. I don't think I broke a 6:14 mile until I was a sophomore or junior in high school.

My daughter was pretty upset with me because I didn't get her up to come run with me yesterday.

From montelepsy on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 11:06:18

I'd be lucky to break 9:20 in a diaper...

From Burt on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 11:17:08

...that's because you'd be taking full advantage of your portable commode.

From James on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 13:00:24

How did Shaine end up? He is going to be one of my athletes this spring for track.

From Sasha Pachev on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 14:47:23

James:

Shaine ran 21:27, one place behind me.

From paul on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 15:20:48

Sasha - Good time.

I have noticed that your mileage has been quite moderate lately: 85 mpw rather than 120 mpw. Do you think you would have run the 4-mile race much faster at your usual summer volume? Where do you think you get diminishing returns, or negative returns?

From mikemac on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 17:23:22

Very good advice concerning children.

Thanks Sasha.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 21:18:16

Paul - I think I hit diminishing returns at around 90 in my current state. The reason being is that the neural drive is so weak I cannot use the gains in aerobic fitness. I actually ran it better than every one of my summer races.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.250.000.000.0013.25

A.M.  10.25 with Jeff in 1:22:59. Felt tightness in the left hamstring. I actually like it when the hamstrings hurt. I had tight hamstrings after my best races.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:44, 2 with Benjamin in 16:46, Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 12:55. Julia rode along on a bike. 

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.25
Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Comments
From Jon on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 16:18:39

Sasha- did you get my private message a while ago about comps for the Striders Winter series? I'm planning to do it but need to know if I should sign up now.

From Matt on Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 18:28:02

Is the 5000 miles any kind of personal record.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 21:20:16

Jon - probably no comps for Striders this year. Matt - I believe 5000 miles in one year is a record for me.

From James on Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 18:41:23

No comps? You can private message us if you want to respond why.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.000.000.000.0015.00

A.M. 12 miles with Jeff in 1:34:35. Stomach has  not worked since yesterday afternoon so I have not been eating much. This entire run felt like the last 6 miles of St. George. 8:00 pace was a challenge. Focusing on the positive, stomach flu helps save on food.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:47, 2 with Benjamin in 17:47, Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 13:18.

 

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 12.00
Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church. Looked at our missionary board. We have 10 full-time missionaries in the field from our stake. What is interesting is that three come from one family, and three more come from our Spanish branch. I cannot help but think it means something, but I cannot quite figure out what this means. Church average is about 20 per stake.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.100.000.000.0013.10

A.M. 10.1 mostly alone in 1:15:01. Caught up to Yvonne,  an old friend of ours from our BYU ward 12 years ago, slowed down to chat, we ran to our house so she could see Sarah and the kids. 

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:19, 2 with Benjamin in 17:15, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:16 with us. Julia rode along for part of it on a bike.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.500.002.500.0013.00

A.M. Total of 10 miles. Ran the warm-up with Dustin and Derek. Then they turned around and ran back. I went a bit further, and then ran my 2.5 mile tempo.

Total time: 13:43.9

Course: From Utah Lake to Geneva Road.

Splits by quarter: 81, 82, 82, 82, 82, 82, 83, 83, 84, 82

Subjective: Probably the most even I've ever run this adjusted for the terrain. However, for the life of me could not go any faster. Felt that my power was coming from what I would describe as a compact stride.

This made me think of a Russian math joke. First, some definitions. A set is considered closed if every sequence in that set that converges to a limit contains that limit. A set is considered bounded, well, if it has boundaries specific to the nature of the beast. In a one-dimensional space (a line of real numbers) the boundaries would be a lower bound number and an upper bound number. In a two-dimensional space (XY plane) the boundaries would be a rectangle. In 3-D a rectangular parallelepiped. Speaking of the parallelepiped. In my informal polling, I discovered that most Americans do not know what it is. In Russia, this geometric object is sufficiently familiar to the general public that it is mentioned in a popular song. But we have digressed.   A set is called compact if it is both  closed and bounded. Now the joke.

A mathematician says to his girlfriend - "you are so compact". She asks what that means. "Well, you are so closed and bounded".

In running I would describe stride compactness as the amount of control you feel over your legs. The metaphor I like to use is if somebody stuck a pen in between your toes you'd be able to write small letters legibly  with your foot. The control over your legs and feet allows you to generate maximum push-off power with minimum effort.

Well, I felt while hitting the 82s that I was able to maintain some semblance of compactness in my stride. After that I began to lose it. I still managed to maintain the pace (adjusted for the terrain, the last mile had a small uphill), but it took a lot of effort.

I think next week I willl replace this tempo with 10x200.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:03, 2 with Benjamin in 16:35, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 12:44.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Lybi on Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 15:36:44

Oh dang! I hate that I must classify myself as one of those Americans that does not know what "parallel piped" means. I would guess it's just a 3D rectangle--like a long box? Basically taking the 2D rectagle and pushing it through space and all the points it touches are included in the set? Geez! You can learn so many different things on this blog.

Congrats on your most even run ever!(It's quite a feat considering you are probably one of the most consistent people on the planet.)

From Nevels on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 17:14:49

A parallelepiped can be a rectangular box, or it can have non-right angles at the corners, but you got the jist of it right. I think the defining characteristics are a closed solid with three sets of parallel sides.

Not that I'm a nerd or anything...

From Lybi on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 21:59:29

Nevels, there's nothing with being a nerd. "Nerd Pride" is where it is. And now I can say that I know what a parallelepiped is. Knowledge is sweet, so thanks!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Jeff must have slept in this morning. So I ran alone for a while.

Quiz: What are my chances of meeting a Russian speaking running partner at 6:00 AM in Provo on a December morning?

Answer: You might think they are pretty dismal. Provo is a small town in the depth's of a supposedly ignorant, non-diverse, narrow minded, prejudiced, bigotted, and you name it, state of Utah which somehow managed to place 5th among all of the states in a recent national health survey. Number one rating on low smoking rate, and number one on low cancer deaths. Only number three on low binge drinking, Latter-Day Saints need to do a better job on home teaching, activation, missionary work, and opening their mouth in general when they know they should even though the world might think they should not. Number three on low cardiovascular deaths. Not dismal, but we can do better than that. Need to do a better job  following the principles of the Word of Wisdom rather than just the letter. 4th place on low infant mortality. Not bad considering that our women have more children than anywhere else in the nation and that they push the envelope and will have a child against the odds more often than anywhere else. But with healthy diet and exercise we might be able to do even better and be number one.

7th place on the low prevalence of obesity. Good bye the myth that LDS people are fatter than the rest of the country. But they are still fat. 22.4 % with the BMI of more than 30. That means a guy my height (5-10) weighing over 208 lb. And no, we cannot blame this on those outside of the church :-)

8th place on low poor mental health days. Good bye the myth that LDS women with everything they have to do are any more depressed than the rest of the nation. But more sunshine in the soul would not hurt. We can be number one.

One place where we got unfairly hit in my opinion is the number of primary care doctors per person (45th), and the public health spending per person (32nd). Doesn't the scripture say the whole need no physician? The healthier we get, the fewer doctors we need, and the less money we need to spend on health care.

We also got slammed on the geographic disparity (45th) which measures how equal the counties are on the health parameters. I'll blame that on the fact that smoking and binge drinking are much higher in the Salt Lake County than in the Utah County and rural areas.

You can see the data at

http://www.americashealthrankings.org/2008/states/ut.html

Well, this morning the Russian speaking partner chances ended up being 100% (if something already happened, the chances are 100%, if it did not, then just 0%). Half way through the run I met Scott Hillman.

Total of 10 miles in 1:21:33. Too early and too much talking in Russian.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin and Jenny in 17:27, 1 with Julia in 9:50.


Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 7.00
Comments
From tarzan on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 18:57:25

LOL - Sasha - aren't you preaching to the choir on some of this? Most of us are doing pretty good on working out and eating healthy.

And while I agree that most healthy people don't need a doctor - some of us are blessed with less than perfect bodies and need help with that. For instance, take Leslie's son-in-law Paul - he was playing Rugby when someone tackled him by the neck and he will probably need constant medical care the rest of his life - no matter how good of shape he gets in.

Do you run into any Italian speakers on your runs?

From Sasha Pachev on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:13:37

I actually do. Saw at least three at the Thanksgiving race, and once in a while train with two of them - Adam R and Nick McCombs. I run into all kinds of speakers.

From tarzan on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 19:21:37

Cool. I was in Wasatch Running the other day talking about my Italy trip in September and the owner started talking to me in Italian. I think he was surprised when I started replying to him.

From wheakory on Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 22:35:49

How are the holy five fingers holding up for you? Your amazing the mileage you put on one pair of shoes.

From Paul Petersen on Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 13:54:42

I passed the quiz. But to be fair, you've given the quiz before, and I have a good memory. ;-)

From Jon on Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 14:10:29

Yes, I've seen the same quiz before, as well, like Paul.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
10.600.000.002.5013.10

A.M. Ran with Derek and MaryAnn. For the sake of protecting MaryAnn's privacy will not mention her last name. Yeah, right :-) If you are a female, and you can hit a 70 second quarter in a workout, do not do it after you've robbed a bank. This will most certainly lead to a positive identification.

So we did a warm-up, then a speed workout on the trail. 2x400 69.3 - 69.8 with 200 recovery. MaryAnn was about a second back on the first, and ran 72 on the second. Then 8x200 with 200 recovery for all except the last. 32.9 - 33.1 - 32.8 - 33.1 - 32.8 - 33.3 - 31.6 - 31.4. Derek was feeling tight so he skipped the 200s. MaryAnn did them in around 34. On the 5th one I told her to back off and coast so she'd be recovered enough to give me trouble in the next two. On the 6th I had her run with me until she could not then coast to the finish. She made it to about 130 meters. But the holy fear of being chicked made me go 1.3 seconds faster.

On the last one we took 400 rest to make MaryAnn faster. She was able to stay with me for the whole interval and finished maybe only a step or two behind. Again the holy fear of being chicked played a role. I ran 1.7 seconds faster than the fastest previous time in that direction.

And I discovered something. The mechanism of running faster. I reach my top power and MaryAnn is still with me. I need to drop her, but I do not have any more raw power left. In fact, it feels like I am not going to be able to sustain the power I am exerting right now. But I do not want to get chicked. Amazingly, I am able to find another gear. Not through more power, but by using that power more efficiently. I have tried to find that gear on all the previous repetitions telling myself, come on, go faster, she is only a few steps behind you, you'll get chicked, etc. But it did not work. Deep down I knew she was far enough behind, and there was nothing I could consciously do about it. The fear had to be real for it work.

Cooled down, total distance for the run was 10.1.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:50 - Joseph rode in the stroller and ran portions. 2 with Benjamin in 17:04, Jenny ran 1.5 in 13:16 with us.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Mary Ann Schauerhame on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 23:17:04

Wow, thanks for making me sound so fast! That makes me want to run faster so I can chick all the guys possible! I'm happy that I'm motivating to guys because of my slower gender. I've noticed in lots of races when I pass a guy and he realizes it's a female, they take off pretty fast or tell me they're just doing it for fun. I think it's pretty funny! I'm glad the expectations for my gender are lower because whatever I do I exceed them and I don't have to worry about anyone beating me except children and the elderly!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. 10 miles alone in 1:11:34. It was cold, so we got some inversion/air pollution. Could tell that Utah ranks only 25th on the lack of air pollution. My plan on improving that. Get as many people as you can running regularly, and especially during winter. If we can do a good job, it could get the public thinking about what we can do to improve our furnaces, and eventually we will have a solution.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:39, 2 with Benjamin in 16:44, Jenny ran 1.5 in 12:44.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.1014.500.500.0023.10

A.M. Ran with Jeff. We did a 2 mile warm-up, ran our standard 15 mile tempo, and then 3.1 for a cool down. Total of 20.1 miles.

Tempo - total time 1:26:52.0. New  course record by 18 seconds.

Splits by mile: 5:51 - 5:50 - 5:52 - 5:49 - 5:54 - 5:46 - 5:49 - 5:47 - 5:52 - 5:48 - 5:46 - 5:45 - 5:43 - 5:45 - 5:35.

By 2.5 segment: 14:39 - 14:37 - 14:30 - 14:32 - 14:24 - 14:10

By 5 mile segment: 29:16 - 29:02 - 28:34

By half: 43:46 - 43:06

Analysis: The plan was to go 5:50 pace without major speeding even if I felt good for the first 10 miles, and then do the best I can after that. Jeff was under the constraint of not being allowed to drop me. The reason was to make sure Jeff would not run himself into the ground. He still has a discrepancy between fuel storage/muscle resilience and a neural drive favoring the neural drive, or in more plain terms he can run hard for 15 miles but he pays for it for a week afterward. 

6:00 pace felt hard from the gun, but then I got warmed up. We did quite a bit of surging into the 86 quarter zone, then overcorrecting to an 89 or sometimes even 90, then repeating the cycle. Which I think was not necessarily bad since it happens a lot in tactical races and it is good to be ready for it.

Part of the reason we surged so much I think was that 5:50 pace felt not much harder than 5:40, but 6:00 felt much more relaxing. So once we'd realize we earned some relaxation points instead of taking a short nap (an 88 quarter), we would go to a spa (90 quarter), and then it was time to pay the bills.

The good news is that as the run progressed the pace did not feel harder. I did not have to draft behind Jeff through most of the run except a couple of surges and the last 0.5 which we did in 2:44 (83,81).

Had to do a VPB stop at mile 7.

Compared to the previous course PR which I set drafting behind Nick for 12.5 miles, we trailed that schedule the entire time and did not pass virtual me until the last mile. However, it was Abraham sacrificing the ram caught in the thicket - virtual me ran 15:12 for the last 2.5 so even though we were still behind at 14, we ended up 18 seconds ahead at the finish.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 15:56, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 12:34. Benjamin was excited about playing with Jared, so he ran 6:44 pace in the last 0.5 to get the run finished quicker. 1 with Julia in 9:47.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 20.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church. Had the privilege to bless my son William. We do not baptize children until they are 8 (age of accountability), but we give them a special blessing soon after they are born.

Julia gave a talk in Primary. Usually if the child is not a fluent reader or if he is just too nervous a parent goes up to help. But I was holding William and Sarah had not yet come in, so I had an idea - send Jenny to help Julia instead. That's part of what the families are all about - older children helping their younger siblings. Julia ended up needing help with only a couple of words.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Comments
From The Howling Commando on Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 13:40:29

Such an inspiration to have children willing to take on such responsibilities! We can't even get kids to go up for the children's sermon at the front of the church for 10 minutes without their parents!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Ran 7.5 with Derek, Dustin, and Mary Ann, and then 2.5 alone. Total time for 10 was 1:11:07.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:08, Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 13:03. 1 with Julia in 10:07. It is getting colder.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.120.000.001.2513.37

A.M. Derek and Dustin did not show up, so it was just me and Mary Ann. She had a tight hamstring, so I did my workout alone. We warmed up 3 miles.

The plan was 10x200. I did 4 alternating directions; 33.3, 34.1, 32.9, 33.3. Then I decided to do a couple of quarters to see what would happen. 70.3 (high 33 split half way), and 72.6 (35). Was fading badly for some reason especially at the end of the last one, the legs felt heavy, like at the end of all out 800 meters. However, my breathing recovered to normal in 20 seconds after each interval.

Did another 2x200: 34.4, and 35.1. Same problem as in the last quarter.

One difference today is that it was 27 degrees. Here is what's odd. If it is just a cold muscle problem, wouldn't you think that you'd have problems in the first few repetitions, and then they would go away as they warm up, and you will not be fading as much in a longer repetition? It was exactly the opposite today.

But at the same time it does not surprise me. I know from experience that starting out fast is a lot more forgivable in 60 degrees than in 25. I still have no clue why.

Finished the run, then added another 2.25 running back from Computune. The Fast Running Van had a break fluid leak. Total distance 10.37 for the workout.

P.M. 2.25 with Benjamin and Jenny to Computune in 20:03. 1 with Julia pushing Jacob and Joseph in 9:58. Joseph got out a few times and ran for portions of it.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.37
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Hobie on Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 19:34:53

Once it gets so cold your joints (usually just your knees actually) will get colder as a workout progresses, even if your muscles get warmer. And of course cold joints will make you stiffer and make your muscles work harder.

From tyler on Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 20:06:17

Thanks for the help today!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.100.000.000.0013.10

A.M. Jeff must have slept in this morning. Ran 8.1 with Mary Ann, and then 2 more alone. Total time 1:22:00.

Went with the missionaries to visit a Mexican family in the afternoon. I do not think most people realize how much the church is doing to reach out to the Latinos.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 9:54, 2 with Benjamin in 17:29, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:09.

Night Sleep Time: 7.00Nap Time: 1.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
11.850.000.001.2513.10

A.M. Ran with Dustin and Mary Ann. Decided to wear tights to see if they will make a difference in the speed workout. Warmed up for 3 miles. Mary Ann had a tight hamstring, so she just jogged. Dustin did the workout with me.

Workout on the trail, usual spot.

We started with 3x400: 68.4, 70.7, 69.8. Took 400 recovery.  Dustin was a step ahead on the first one, even on the second, and a step behind on the third. Then 4x200: 32.1, 32.0, 31.6, 31.0. 200 recovery. Dustin was a step ahead on all.

The workout went a lot better than on Tuesday. What was different: Dustin's presence, wearing tights, and hanging upside down on the inversion table before the run.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:21, 2 with Benjamin in 17:07. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:09.

Read on the news in a headline that the total amount of American debt was down for the first time since 1952. The headline made it sound like Americans were starting to be serious about getting out of debt. Decided to read the article to see what was up and was laughing for the rest of the day, and still laughing. The cause of the reduced debt was an increase in foreclosures. Mind-boggling, but true nevertheless. When you lose a house, you also lose the debt.

Along the same lines, there is an ad as you drive east on Center street in Orem from the I-15 exit. It says: "Live debt free! 801-BANKRUPT".  And recently I got the following in the mail, kept me laughing for a few days, and I am still not over it: "Title loans. Any make, year, or model. Go from 0 to $5000 in 20 seconds!" I could not believe it. Somebody is spending time and money to advertise something as idiotic as going into $5K of debt in 20 seconds, that fast!

I was have a conversation about religion with a friend in 2002. He asked me: "So what is your prophet telling you to do now?".  The first thing that came to my mind was to get out of debt. My friend was rather skeptical and wondered what was so special about that. Valueable advice often comes in the form of an invitation to wash yourself in the Jordan river seven times. We are tempted to disregard it as being too simple. Yet this inspired simplicity can make a big difference, and I have seen it so in this case.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Matt on Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 23:04:20

Sasha,

What is the inversion table. I mean I can kind of guess but is it homemade or something you bought. Blood rushes to the head makes you feel a little more alive? The debt advertising would be a little more funny if it didn't work. "There is a sucker born every minute" PT Barnum.

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 14:19:51

Matt:

The inversion table allows you to hang upside down. This is good for your spine. I have the cheapest one I could find on the market, and it works fine.

From paul on Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 14:39:54

Sasha - did you get your inversion table online? Do you have the link?

From Sasha Pachev on Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 15:49:45

Paul:

http://order.store.yahoo.com/OS/stat?wonderfulbuys+371884+1bfba2f9e564360167a9

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Total of 10 in 1:18:29. First 4 with Daniel and Mary Ann. Wore Five Fingers. Feet felt fine. They are OK if there is not a lot of moisture even if it is cold. The left one is finally starting to develop a hole. The right one has had two holes for about 600 miles already. But my feet are getting used to it.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:00. 2 with Benjamin in 17:00, Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 12:55.

Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From marion on Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 15:35:32

Interesting way to break into barefooted running ;) I like it!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
8.3414.001.000.0023.34

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Daniel, and Mary Ann. Daniel and Mary Ann did the warm-up (2 miles), and ran the first mile of the tempo. Mary Ann additionally did another 0.75 or so of the tempo starting at our 2.75 mark. Jeff ran everything with me.

Tempo. 15 miles, 1:26:59, same course - 3 times the standard 5 mile tempo from Geneva Road to the Utah Lake and back. So 6 times on the same 2.5 stretch alternating directions, 5 180 turns, tedious, but I like being able to compare the splits.

Conditions - the road traction was ideal, but it was windy. So some miles were slower than the effort we put into them.

Splits: 5:50, 5:55, 5:52, 5:54, 6:01, 5:54, 5:52, 5:46, 5:43, 5:52, 5:42, 5:40, 5:42, 5:42, 5:34. 

By 2.5: 14:44 - 14:48 - 14:39 - 14:28 - 14:17 - 14:03

By 5: 29:32 - 29:07 - 28:20

By 7.5: 44:11 - 42:48

Details: First mile felt great. Then we started dealing with the wind. Decided to ignore the splits and just go by the effort of the consensus. Meaning that both Jeff and I agreed we were putting in an honest 5:50 effort. The effort was producing splits about 10 seconds per mile slower than what we felt we deserved. Finally I got tired of this and suggested we trade quarters. Up to that point we'd been running side by side. This led to a pace increase. The surging to pass also agitated Jeff enough to where he started to want to run faster, and it was wearing me out. Sensing this I decided it was time to start drafting.

The last 5 miles I was following Jeff hanging on to dear life as he tried to bring us under 1:27:00. 5:40 pace for me at the end of a 15 mile tempo is hard even in ideal conditions, and with the wind gusts it was particularly tough. I moaned the last 3 miles. Moaning helps me deal with the pain and exert more effort. With 1.25 to go Jeff gapped me and then challenged to give him five. I made an effort to humble myself and feel Christ-like love in my heart. It was not easy. I think I learned something. You cannot learn this just sitting in Sunday School or reading the scriptures. But at the same time I do not think you will learn it as well if you had not been taught this in Sunday School or from the scriptures. You need the right balance of theory and practice to learn effectively.

Jeff had just raised the bar on me after I had reached what I thought was my limit. I had to humble myself, not let my pride turn my focus to the pain, but rather hush that pride and believe that I could go faster. Truly believe, not just in my mind, but in the very depth of my heart.

So I made an effort to believe in my ability to run the last mile in 5:35 as much as Jeff believed it. It is easy for him, he is not getting my pain signals. But it is good that he is not. This allows him to believe naturally and lead the way. We grow when we lay our pride aside and allow those who are stronger to show us what we need to do.

The last three quarters were 85, 83, 84, and 81, and we reached a time I thought was impossible in those windy conditions. This seems to be a common theme in those tempo runs lately.

When we finished I felt nauseous and would have thrown up had there been anything in my stomach. After about a minute of my attempting to vomit we ran a 3 mile cool down. Total of 20 miles for the run.

P.M. Snow on the roads. 0.34 with Joseph while pushing Jacob in the stroller in 4:11. 200 with Jacob in 1:47. 1 with Julia in 9:51. 2 with Benjamin in 17:50. Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:27.


Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 20.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From tarzan on Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 16:43:42

Wow, Sasha! That sounds like a tremendous amount of effort, especially as windy as it was out.

I am impressed at the amount of effort you put into some of your runs. It is almost scary to me to think of having to push that hard, but I know I will have to eventually push harder to improve.

From Mary Ann Schauerhame on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 23:29:56

I can't even fathom doing this kind of workout, even as a male. This just blows me away. That's talent and incredible emotional strength to run this hard this long! Maybe you get some of the inspiration from Sarah who has the strength to have 6 kids and still run!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to church. Went home teaching in the evening. It was cold. I missed Al Gore, thought he could warm up the air with his talks about global warming.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.50Total Sleep Time: 9.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Ran with Daniel, Dustin, and Mary Ann. Daniel went 4, Dustin 8, Mary Ann 7. I did 10 in 1:14:51. Mary Ann was late, but then she drove around and found us. This was a great investigative feat. I think she could land a job with FBI.

With the temperatures of 21 F at the start I missed Al Gore and the global warming convention again. I think they should have had it in Utah instead of Poland. Or even better, somewhere in the US Northeast, maybe Maine.

Dustin looked at my hip imbalance and suggested some exercises. He thinks my right hip rotators are weak/deactivated. His suggestion was to work on the hip rotators on both sides with the 2:1 right/left repetition ratio. I am excited - something new to try.

During the run I presented an argument that Mary Ann could possibly have a 2:30 marathon in her. Both Dustin and Mary Ann herself were skeptical. I presented my reasoning: my PRs up to 800 meters are slightly slower than hers (59.5 vs 58.0 quarter, 2:12 vs 2:11 800),  when I ran 40 miles a week I ran 4:26 in the 1500 vs her 4:29, and 16:38 5 K vs her 17:30. My mileage even then was more consistent than hers ever.  So who knows what might happen at 80 miles a week over 5 years. Here is the funny part. Dustin says - well, you are still 20 seconds faster than her in the 1500. I am puzzled. He says - your 4:26 is for the mile, right? No, Dustin, for 1500! If I could run 4:26 for the mile I would have had no worries about the new OTQ 2:19 standard!

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:16, 2 with Benjamin in 16:58, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:03.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Comments
From Phoenix on Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 13:08:14

Its a slippery argument.

Sasha, the same reason you are relatively strong over the marathon is the same reason you are relatively weaker at the middle distance. They are two sides of the same coin and causally linked.

No doubt 800/mile speed is a tremendous asset, and with a high training volume can be capitalized on in the marathon, but it has its limitations.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 16:02:22

Eric:

The way I see it - to run well in any distance from 100 meters to the marathon you need to have what I call Quality X or in other words be a good runner. Predisposition to a distance is not nearly as important as Quality X. If you have wrong predisposition you just change the distance. Lack of Quality X is a much more serious problem.

Quality X even in distance runners manifests itself in distances as short as 100 meters. Your most marathon-predisposed 2:06 marathoners can still run 12.5 100 meters.

So I get a lot more excited when I find somebody with already existing speed that is adequate to reach a world-class time in the marathon. There is roughly (in my estimate) a 30% chance that he might be suited for the marathon and will run world-class times if he does the work. If he does not have the speed, we already know his limits off traditional marathon training. The only way to make him go past those limits is to discover a new training method that raises Quality X, which currently does not exist, or at least I've seen no reports of any training that has successfully improved Quality X by a significant margin. I define success as "without increases in aerobic capacity, improve the performance on every distance from 100 meters to 5000 meters by at least 10%". Perhaps "without increases in aerobic capacity" is redundant since we are asking for improvement in sprints, not just distance events, but I like that for emphasis - we are looking to improve sustainable yet non-aerobic resources of running speed.

From Phoenix on Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 16:12:15

Interesting take and well said.

I suspect Quality X is neurological in origin. In the long-term, it all boils down to increasing your running economy. I think that is the biggest benefit of high mileage over years. Big miles in the short term produce some nice cardiovascular and muscle metabolic adaptation, but that tops off pretty soon--6 months to 2 years. Yet, improvement can and does continue for some. In every longitudinal study I know of, long-term improvement was due to increased economy.

(I would like to see Baldini try to run a 12.5).

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 16:48:04

According to

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=B/athcode=9827/index.html

Baldini has run 3000 in 7:43, 5000 in 13:23, and 10000 in 27:43. Unfortunately for anything shorter we would have to extrapolate. But I would highly doubt he is that much different from Ryan Hall. Assuming Ryan Hall speed drop profile from 800 to 5000, this would give Baldini about 1:52 800 (Hall has run 1:51). Which is 8x100 in 14.0 strung together. I've heard claims of people being able to sprint 800 meters at their 100 meter speed without a bear on their back, but have never seen a hard proof, and I highly doubt it is possible.

Based on my experience - I've never been out-PRed in any longer race by anybody who I out-PRed in 100 meters. I am sure it is possible to lose speed from 100 to 800 less than I do, but I would expect only marginally. Assuming Baldini loses speed from 100 to 800 like I do, that would give him 11.8. So he would have to retain speed a whole lot better than me, to the degree I've never seen in anybody, from 100 to 800 to not be able to run 12.5.

From Phoenix on Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 17:09:50

Sound logic.

My only counter is how were they tuned at the times of their respective performances? What could Ryan Hall run the 800m in now? What about on marathon day? The same for Baldini.

I have repeatedly beat people over 800 meters who had both better 400 and 5,000 speed. Meaning, Runner Y (since we've already used X for the day) beats me at 100m, 200m, meters, I get closer at 400 meters, I win at 800m, I split 1500m 50/50 depending on the day, and then lose at 3000m and even more at 5k.

At some ultra marathon distance would you lose to someone with inferior speed?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 17:45:21

We assume being tuned for the distance.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Ran with Jeff, Daniel, and Mary Ann. Jeff and I went 10, Daniel 4, Mary Ann 7. Lots of snow on the road. Slow run. I fell twice. Total time was 1:24:46.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:46, 2 with Benjamin in 17:50, Jenny ran the first 1.5 in 13:31.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.50Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.50
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Started with 2 miles with Benjamin in 16:23. Continued with Chauncy and Mary Ann. Dropped Mary Ann off after 7 miles. Ran another 1.5 with Chauncy. Chauncy served a mission in Russia, so he got some practice in the language today. Total time for 10.5 was 1:20:36.

Roads are still slippery.

Mary Ann has finally been converted to the "true religion". She is now on the blog.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 10:25. 1.5 with Jenny in 13:22. Slippery roads.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.50
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Snowed in today. Tuesday was nothing compared to today. But I know it could be worse.

Ran 7 miles with Chauncy and Mary Ann, then added 3 alone. Total time for 10 was 1:26:35. Effort-wise I did about 7:30 per mile, but it produced 8:40. Saw Sarah Jarvis (a triathlete) pushing her two kids in the double stroller. Knew it was her from far away even though I could not recongize the face or the stride. Nobody else would run with a double stroller in this kind of weather.

When I got home Julia wanted to go for a run. I wondered if she'd able to break 12:00 on those roads. She did - 11:46 for the mile.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 19:44. Jenny ran 1.5 in 15:02. Not enough traction to go faster.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 11.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Phoenix on Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 19:29:51

I know what you mean. We get a lot of snow up on the Salt Lake Bench. Paying attention to pace on ice and snow is depressing so I just run for time.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.000.000.000.0015.00

A.M. 7 with Daniel and Mary Ann. 3 more by myself. 1:24:38 for 10. Broke 8:00 average in the last 3 miles, but had to hit 5:30 pace when I had traction. There were not many of those parts.

Added another mile with Julia in 11:25.

Ran into Marion and her husband Dave at Costco.

P.M. 2 miles cross-country skiing at Jolley Ranch in the Hobble Creek Canyon with Benjamin. Everybody else was sledding.

2 miles with Benjamin in 18:59, Jenny ran 1.5 with us in 14:28.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 11.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From ridor on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 00:38:40

I hope you will not win any medal in any competition. In fact, I hope you lose out a lot more than this.

R-

Race: Provo Christmas Run (3.1 Miles) 00:17:01, Place overall: 1
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.000.000.003.1018.10

A.M. 5 miles with Daniel and Mary Ann in 44:46. 3 more miles alone in 26:34. 2 miles with Benjamin in 18:19. 1 with Julia in 11:26. 1.5 with Jenny in 14:52. Total of 12.5 miles. Still slippery, 8:00 mile is a dream pace.

P.M. Ran Mary Ann's 5 K.  Won it in 17:01. We had a small group. Ted came to help with the race. The course had a net downhill of 57 feet, but the last mile was uphill and into a small headwind - started at the Rock Canyon Park and finished close to the north end of the Timpview drive. I have plotted a rough version - $Provo Christmas Run. After the crazy grade correction the Course Tool says the effort was worth about 5:24 flat pace, which I am willing to believe. It was cold, there were occasional patches of snow on the road, there was about a 5-10 mph headwind on Timpview, and I ran alone start to finish. Chauncy was second in 18:19. The warm up was very short, about 0.2 miles, the cool down was about 1.5 miles or so.

A plug for Mary Ann's races. This is exactly what I wanted for the Fast Running Blog racing circuit. Bare essentials for a low entry fee. No nonsense, let's have a race. The Fast Running Blog is seriously considering becoming a title sponsor for those races. But in any case, I would like to encourage everybody to support Mary Ann in her efforts. The next race is on December 31, 2008 at 2:00 pm in Provo. This time it will be on the Provo River Trail starting at the Geneva Road parking lot. The tentative plan for the course is out-and-back on the Provo River Trail following most of my standard 3 mile tempo.

P.M-2: 1 mile running errands.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 17.10
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Mary Ann Schauerhame on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 23:39:14

Thanks for the plug Sasha!!!

From TylerS on Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 22:38:40

I am going to try and make the race on the 31st! I might even come to provo on Tuesday with Michelle!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day off. Went to Church. Maurine (Tarzan) came over to pick up Sarah's pants and to visit with us in the afternoon.

Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From tarzan on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 15:50:22

I wish I had a MP3 recorder to remember all the information you two gave me!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
14.000.000.000.0014.00

A.M. 5 with Daniel and Mary Ann in 40:56. Then 2 with Benjamin and Mary Ann in 17:53. 4 more alone in 33:57. Still slippery. Less slippery at the start, more later on. 3 VPBs, one more non-virtual. And no, I do not consider this a health abnormality, I felt fine except in moments of urgency.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:54, 1.5 with Jenny in 15:51. 0.5 running errands. 

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 11.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Mary Ann Schauerhame on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 22:51:05

What does VPB stand for? If you tell me will this website be family-safe? Very Public Bathroom? Vital Private Business? ha ha!! I didn't know you used to run for Sojourners! You need to tell me more about that tomorrow!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.500.000.000.0013.50

A.M. Still slippery. 5 miles with Daniel and Mary Ann in 46:07. 2 more with Benjamin and Mary Ann in 17:54. 4 alone in 34:32.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:31, 1.5 with Jenny in 14:58.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 11.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Still slippery. 5 with Daniel and Mary Ann in 44:47. 5 more with Chauncy and Mary Ann in 43:55.

Interesting dreams. I dreamt that Jacob was 10 years old and I was trying to catch up to him. I was pushing as hard as I could but could not close the gap. Jacob so far has shown more running talent and motivation than any other kid in our family at his age. He is 2. So this dream may very well come true and not because I get slow.

Sarah had a dream that a drunk defecated on our front porch. I hope her dream does not come true literally. However, according to a Russian tradition, her dream means we are going to get a significant amount of money from an unexpected source. I hope that part will come true.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:14, 2 with Benjamin in 18:58, Jenny ran 1.5 in 14:25. Slippery.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From Marion on Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 14:57:24

Nice dreams! That is a great Russian tradition! They made me smile! Merry Christmas!

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.000.000.000.0013.00

A.M. Merry Christmas to everyone. We got a Merry Christmas from Provo City as well - they have finished the construction project on the trail and everything is back to normal. Not counting the slippery roads, of course. Now the fish are happy and so are the runners. Both can travel through their natural habitat.

Ran 5 with Daniel, 5 more alone. Total of 10 miles in 1:27:31. I could go 8:00 on better parts, but there were parts where 10:00 pace was all I could do.

Soon after I finished, 2 with Benjamin in 19:33, Jenny did 1.5 in 15:03, then 1 mile with Julia in 11:34.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 13.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From MichelleL on Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 17:24:45

I think your run today is a good example of why you should consider running roads instead of the river trail. Provo and Salem/SF have had near identical weather over the last week. Today you ran 10 miles in 1:27, I ran 10 miles in 1:16. You were on the trail, I was on the roads. Trail keeps the snow and ice alot longer because of the lack of heavy traffic and the lack of salt/dirt treatment, so you'll have few if any clear days on the trail if it snows once a week. Regarding my time, I did do 10 strides, but I ran slowly for about .2-.25 after each which counter balanced that speed. The roads were mostly clear, with just occasional ice patches or inconsiderate car.

From MichelleL on Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 17:25:10

Oh and Merry Christmas!

From Kelli on Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 22:43:58

You r weather down there must have been way better than ours!! We could not even see 5 feet in front of us most of the day!

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas when you finished up your running!

From MARION on Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 21:08:23

Does all this snow running make us better, stronger, faster?

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
15.000.000.000.0015.00

A.M. 10 miles in 1:26:22. First 5 with Daniel. Still slippery. Did some sprints in the middle whenever I had traction. Cheating like this allowed me to run the last 2.5 at sub-8:00 average.

P.M. Cross-country skiing with Benjamin in at the Jolley Ranch in the Hobble Creek Canyon. 2 miles. I did laps, and so did he, so we could be together while going our own speeds.  On the way back I managed to drive VanGoGo into a snow drift. The snow stuck to some parts inside that affected steering and breaking. So I thought I was stuck pretty bad, when in fact I just did not think to turn the wheel hard enough. With some guidance from people that were kind enough to stop and help I was able to steer it out. However, steering and breaking was very difficult the entire way home. I tried to clear out the snow, was able to make things better, but it is pretty deep. The breaks seem to work fine, but steering is still difficult. Will hope the snow melts over the weekend.

P.M.-2 1 with Julia in 11:11, 2 with Benjamin in 17:31, Jenny ran 1.5 in 13:25.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From MARION on Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 19:15:58

Glad you made it out of the snow OK- isn't it great to have kind people around ;)

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
20.000.000.000.0020.00

A.M. 17 miles in 2:23:14, first 5 with Daniel. The road kept getting more and more slippery as the temperatures rose. So I decided to try something new - spikes. For a while it was better. I was able to average 7:00 pace on my magic 2.5 mile stretch. But then I went on a less traveled portion of the trail going along the lake, and it was very bumpy. Plus the rising temperatures kept increasing the slippage. So I slowed down to around 9:00-9:30 pace. When I got out I sped up to around 9:00. The last mile was 7:51 - hard packed snow helped. I learned that good traction is only a part of being able to go fast. Little snow bumps on the road can be a very serious factor in slowing you down.

The long run was not that long distance-wise, but I think effort-wise it was just right - I was out there for about as long as it takes me to run a good marathon putting in a decent effort.

P.M. 1 with Julia in 11:43, 2 with Benjamin in 19:01, Jenny ran 1.5 in 14:37.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 5.00
Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
0.000.000.000.000.00

Day of rest. Went to Church. Our home teachers came for a visit. We had a good time.

Night Sleep Time: 9.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 9.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
13.050.000.000.0013.05

A.M. 10 miles in 1:24:06. First 5 with Daniel. Still slippery, but there are a few clear patches. Did sprints there. Finally broke 8:30 average for this run. Progress...

P.M. Measured the 5 K course with the help of Benjamin and Jenny for the race on the 31st, and also for the tempo runs. It is a very good out and back flat course mostly on Boat Harbor Drive, which is a paved farm road that does get frequently plowed but does not have much traffic.

Ran 2.05 on the course with Benjamin and Jenny in 18:26.

Later, 1 mile with Julia in 11:46.

Had friends over and had Family Home Evening with them. 12 children, 4 adults, oldest child was 10. Managed it just fine, no behavior problems. Nobody had to do push-ups, squats, or go to the corner. In fact, even no verbal warnings.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 10.00
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From tarzan on Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 17:13:05

Does the race start on the parkway trail and then head down the road when it gets to it? Is the road icy?

I have to admit I'm a little bit scared about pushing myself so hard. I know I need to learn how to do it - but I have a mental block that I need to knock down.

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 17:17:55

We moved the start to Lakeview Drive to avoid the ice. Barring a major snow storm the roads should be clear. It was clear today with the exceptions of some minor ice accumulation. Even that should melt if the forecast holds true.

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
9.009.320.000.0018.32

A.M. Ran with Daniel, Mary Ann, Michelle, and Tyler S. Non-English language fluency of the group: Icelandic, French, Spanish, and Russian.

The workout was 3x5 K on the Provo New Year Run course that I measured yesterday. Lots of recovery in between due to the need for VPBs and the closest opportunity about 600 meters away from the workout headquarters (start/finish of the repeat). Only Michelle managed to do the workout in its entirety.

First one was 18:58. Mary Ann stayed with us through the first mile, Tyler made it to 2 miles, but finished OK in 19:08. Perfect even split by half.

Second was 18:47. Negative split by one second.

Third - 18:43 with a negative split of one second. We hit the first mile in 6:00. Then Michelle was struggling so I eased off the pressure. With a mile to go I challenged her to break 6:00 in the last mile. She did a steady 91 second quarter pace for the next three quarters. Then I accelerated, opened a gap, and challenged her to give me five. She did it quicker than I thought, and  I realized I had to accelerate quickly to make sure she kept the momentum after she had caught up. We hit 3 miles in 18:09, I figured Michelle would have a kick, so I accelerated pretty hard and got ready to play the give me five, but Michelle stayed right on my tail the entire time. Our last quarter was 84, and our last 0.107 was 34 seconds, 5:18 pace. What's odd is when I tried to go 6:00 (90 quarter) with about 1 K to go I was opening a gap so I had to ease off to 91, but Michelle was able to shift gears and run as fast as sub-5:20 when it came time to kick. Which makes me think she should be able to do this workout at 5:45 pace after some aerobic, neurological, and psychological conditioning.

I figure given the conditions and how I felt the workout was marathon pace effort for me. At least even in shorts and warm weather I am happy when I can break 19:00 in the last 5 K of a marathon.

P.M. 2 with Benjamin in 17:46, Jenny ran 1.5 in 13:27. Julia did not run - not feeling well. Getting better, but we decided to give her a day off just to be sure.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 16.32
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From MichelleL on Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 17:43:10

"What's odd is when I tried to go 6:00 (90 quarter) with about 1 K to go I was opening a gap so I had to ease off to 91" 6:04 is just so much easier than 5:59! I think it's the 6:00 barrier. Going to have to come to grips with that eventually.

Thanks so much for the hard workout Sasha!

Race: Provo New Year Run (3.107 Miles) 00:17:03, Place overall: 1
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
12.000.003.110.0015.11

A.M. 8 miles in 1:03:51. Broke 8:00 average! The trail is much better. Ran the first 3 with Daniel and Mary Ann.

P.M. Ran Mary Ann's 5K. We had a bigger crowd. 17 people in the 5 K and 8 in the kids race. First, Joseph took 4th overall and won the age division in the 200 with a new PR - 59 seconds. Then we ran the 5 K.

Since it was I who measured  the course, I had the comfort of knowing it was accurate. With the exception of a little bit of back support from Adam in the first 200 meters I ran the race alone. The road conditions were good, no slippage. It was cold, around 30 degrees, and there was a little bit of wind, which was head most of the first half, and tail most of the second. My splits were 5:24 - 5:38 - 5:30 with a kick in 31. First half in 8:29, second in 8:34. Last quarter in 78. Total time 17:03. Wanted to break 17:00, but lacked the juice. Legs did not feel a whole lot of power. Not a surprise - I was expecting it.  I ran long and brisk the day before, and had not done any 5 K speed for several weeks. So I was happy that it was at least a low-17:00 on an honest out-and-back course, and that I managed a not too positive of a split.

Daniel was second with 18:37, then Chauncy 18:48, and Adam Rogia in 19:06. Adam has lost some weight (I did not have a clue he had 15 lb that he could lose, but I guess it was well hidden), and this is a major improvement for him.

Paced Benjamin after I finished. He ran 22:41. I think the cold tricked him into going slower because once I got to him he was able to speed up to a 1:36 quarter at the end. Then took Jenny with me and we went to pace Maurine. Maurine ran a PR of 27:54. Then ran another mile with Jenny and Chauncy, and one more with Julia. Julia's time was 10:16.

Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 15.11
Night Sleep Time: 8.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 8.00
Comments
From tarzan on Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 12:51:49

You were spot on with that course. Thanks for helping with the race and the runners (including moi).

Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
4642.68441.67263.4786.805434.62
Vibram Five Fingers Miles: 187.10Brooks T4 Racing Flat Miles: 487.82
Night Sleep Time: 2468.67Nap Time: 145.16Total Sleep Time: 2613.83
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